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(Slate)   Yelling at your children is bad for their self-esteem, claims person with maladjusted children possessing a grandiose sense of entitlement and ability   (slate.com) divider line 84
    More: Fail, self-esteem, child psychology  
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3403 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Nov 2013 at 2:23 AM (37 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-06 09:01:32 PM
As many commenters have already pointed out, this leaves parents' hands even more tied than they were already. No spanking. Timeouts don't really work. Bribery is wrong. Death-stares, displaying no reaction, walking away, distraction, and gentle explanation of wrongdoing are all suboptimal. Now yelling is off the table, too. According to Alan E. Kazdin, author of The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child, the only real option is to coolly rescind a privilege according to a plan you have already discussed with your demon offspring-and then to disengage. (Or perhaps to resign yourself to the fact that your children will forever be maladjusted feral animals.)

I caught 'infuriating spawn', 'demon offspring', and 'maladjusted feral animals' in the first few paragraphs.

First off, "Katy", I'm really sorry your kids are assholes.

Second, let's just say there's no perfect way to raise a child. There's only so many privileges you can take away from a child when they are a few years old and misbehaving. At the end of the day, none of us are perfect parents. My wife and I, well we work full time and our kids go to daycare so on the weekdays we see our children the first hour or so and the last 2-3 hours. So we're tired and they are tired for most of our weekday interaction. Which means trouble sometimes.

I'm only up to three years old with my daughter but here's my personal experience.Redirection sometimes works. Timeout does work for us, but we don't separate our kid or put them in a dark room or anything severe, just their quiet space for them to settle down. Quickly counting to five before there are consequences works. We sometimes raise our voice and occasionally we lose it and yell, but rarely. We mostly talk through feelings when our daughter gets emotional and loses it. We never bribe (although we do reward) and we never hit or spank. We never give in to tantrums or demands and in fact we take stuff away when our daughter has them, to discourage them.

We do threaten to take away privileges but it's only part of the arsenal. You just can't use that all the time. There just aren't enough things you can take away. Or perhaps I'm not creative enough in my privilege revoking. But what you've got as a parent is a toolbag, and you use different tools when you can, it all depends on the circumstances. And you have to be willing to go through with whatever you are threatening or they'll run all over you.

And kids are different, they vary immensely. My little boy is a little troublemaker and tumbler but in a fun loving way, and he's shy. My little girl is independent but creative and absolutely adores her little brother - when they aren't fighting for the same toy.
 
2013-11-06 09:42:32 PM
HAHAHA THAT'S JUST WHAT YOU THINK YOU UNGRATEFUL LITTLE SHIAT.... NOW PICK UP YOUR ROOM BEFORE I SPANK YOU AND SEND YOU TO BED WITHOUT DINNER
 
2013-11-06 09:59:29 PM
There is a fine line between fear and respect... just as there is a fine line between yelling and screaming.
 
2013-11-06 10:38:35 PM
Could they have crammed any more embedded links into that article? I'm not sure I can glean satisfaction from only ignoring 100 citations.
 
2013-11-06 10:45:04 PM
Researchers from the University of Pittsburgh found that "harsh verbal discipline"-cursing, insults, and shouting-can be as harmful to kids as hitting or spanking.

"Not very" in other words.

Occasionally yelling at a kid or popping them on the bottom when they royally screw up isn't going to scar the kid for life.

But they're not very effective, either.
 
2013-11-06 11:35:48 PM
Luckily we still have monkey torture.
 
2013-11-07 12:22:33 AM
When the fark did all these dumb ideas on parenting start taking over. And why do people listen to them.
 
2013-11-07 12:33:19 AM

Generation_D: When the fark did all these dumb ideas on parenting start taking over. And why do people listen to them.


It's perpetual. People are scared so authors write books designed to address those fears but end up introducing new ones. I'd say it started in the 50s when fear was sold wholesale next to the bunker supplies.
 
2013-11-07 02:26:12 AM
I gotta say, my parents never yelled at me. Beat me a few times, but no yelling. Yelling is a sign of weakness. Also, in the South, yelling is what happens immediately before firearms come into play. Do not yell at us, Yankee asshole bosses. It won't end well.
 
2013-11-07 02:27:02 AM
Anyone else catch any of those Total Transotmation Program ads on the radio? Where the "mom" sounds like a total coont?
 
2013-11-07 02:29:09 AM
No, you're supposed to yell at them every other day and be really nice on the alternate days -- it keeps them confused.
 
2013-11-07 02:35:05 AM

SpdrJay: No, you're supposed to yell at them every other day and be really nice on the alternate days -- it keeps them confused.


If they only had a two day memory...
/little shiats are good at pattern recognition
 
2013-11-07 02:35:42 AM
A second colleague remembered her father yelling at her to stop crying:

www.graffitiwithpunctuation.net
 
2013-11-07 02:37:25 AM
who the hell needs to yell, my mom could set you straight with a look and if that didn't do it with a slap,
 
2013-11-07 02:37:52 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Anyone else catch any of those Total Transotmation Program ads on the radio? Where the "mom" sounds like a total coont?


Yeah that program sounds like it advocates outright manipulation and just basically breaking someone like you do a horse.
 
2013-11-07 02:38:52 AM
If your kids are demon-offspring, what does that make you?

/Those who complain about our generation forget who raised it.
 
2013-11-07 02:40:43 AM
If they're doing things that result in them getting yelled at, why should they have good self-esteem? They're obviously not good children.
 
2013-11-07 02:50:46 AM

Kanemano: who the hell needs to yell, my mom could set you straight with a look and if that didn't do it with a slap,



My dad could turn on the Manson Lamps too.

He yelled and hit as well, but the 'look' was the most frightening.

/ he was still a pretty cool guy though...
 
2013-11-07 02:51:13 AM

mbillips: I gotta say, my parents never yelled at me. Beat me a few times, but no yelling. Yelling is a sign of weakness. Also, in the South, yelling is what happens immediately before firearms come into play. Do not yell at us, Yankee asshole bosses. It won't end well.

Excessive

yelling is a sign of weakness.  Yelling is a weakness when it's used as a crutch or  theway to raise your children.
My old neighbor was a young mom who yelled and cursed at her kids basically every other sentence.  The kids were probably 5, 7, and 10, and let me tell you....those 7 and 10 year olds (both boys) did not react to the yelling....like...at all.  They'd carry on being terrible and just do it while yelling and cursing at eachother and the 5 year old girl, who was just constantly confused and terrified.
On the other hand, my father, and both my grandfathers knew when (and how) to yell.  It was rare when I heard my father yell, and exceedingly rare when either of my grandfathers yelled....but when they did, me and my sister fixed ourselves with a quickness and never regarded them as weak at all.

Yelling can be a powerful tool, but only when used in measure.
 
2013-11-07 02:54:30 AM
images.shirts.com
 
2013-11-07 02:55:03 AM
I only know my own experience.  My dad was old and tired when I was born.  He let most crap go, an hit me 5 times as I was growing up.  One of those times was a beat down that probably would have gotten him into trouble today.  But I threatened my mother and it was his duty to administer that lesson that day.

All five of those times changed my life for the better.  I remember every single time.  I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.

I personally think id be better off if I got yelled at and hit more.  Thats a slippery slope, of course, but there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage.  Scale and frequency are the key.  If your kid gets brought home from walgreens by a cop for stealing drugs, then you better damn well yell at that kid.  At least.  THAT is  your duty as a parent.
 
2013-11-07 02:56:10 AM

Krieghund: Occasionally yelling at a kid or popping them on the bottom when they royally screw up isn't going to scar the kid for life.



Occasionally is fine, but most screamer-parents I've known won't stop at occasionally, nor do they limit it to matters of legitimate discipline. To them, screaming at the child over imaginary wrongs is all about stress relief, since they can't scream at their SO or boss.
 
2013-11-07 02:57:02 AM
Whether or not it's bad for them -- from a purely selfish perspective -- it just doesn't seem very effective. Would you expect yelling at restaurant staff or a DMV employee to improve the outcome of your encounter with them? If not, why do you think doing the same thing to actual children will have positive results?
 
2013-11-07 02:57:40 AM

mbillips: I gotta say, my parents never yelled at me. Beat me a few times, but no yelling. Yelling is a sign of weakness. Also, in the South, yelling is what happens immediately before firearms come into play. Do not yell at us, Yankee asshole bosses. It won't end well.


You're right about things not ending well after Southerners break out the firearms.  If last time is any indication, there'll be a thirty mile strip between Atlanta and Savannah that ends up pillaged and burnt, and Savannah given as a prize to the president...

I would duck, but I'm not sure if you guys have switched to rifled bores yet or not...
 
2013-11-07 02:57:55 AM
Why do all of slates writers look like aging, harpy, hipsters?

www.slate.com

www.slate.com
 
2013-11-07 02:58:23 AM
I wonder what psychologists think about shock collars and cattle prods? Administered without yelling or anger, of course.

/father of a teenager
 
2013-11-07 02:58:47 AM

I sound fat: I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.


So why was the beating necessary, if you already understood the problem and how to correct it?
 
2013-11-07 03:00:00 AM

I sound fat: there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage


Said the wife beater.

/ I know you're not actually a wife beater
// But that's literally exactly what they say to justify their abuse
 
2013-11-07 03:01:49 AM

Tr0mBoNe: I'd say it started in the 50s when fear was sold wholesale next to the bunker supplies.


Because no political system before the 50s was organized around fear of a "common enemy". Nope. Not feudalism. Not war chiefs. It's a new and original concept that was invented in the lifetime of baby boomers, like all other human thought.
 
2013-11-07 03:03:07 AM

bdub77: There just aren't enough things you can take away.


If only there were options other than deprivation and violence. But as we see in the adult world, people only show up at work if we threaten to hit them to starve them.
 
2013-11-07 03:03:38 AM

profplump: Whether or not it's bad for them -- from a purely selfish perspective -- it just doesn't seem very effective. Would you expect yelling at restaurant staff or a DMV employee to improve the outcome of your encounter with them? If not, why do you think doing the same thing to actual children will have positive results?


Yelling loses its effectiveness the more often you do it.  The difference between yelling at restaurant staff and children is the restaurant staff are grown people who don't regard you as an authority figure.  Being yelled at by a big, scary adult can be really effective to keep you in line, but once again, only once in a while.

The new age way of raising kids where you ask them nicely not to be a dick is complete horseshiat.
 
2013-11-07 03:05:15 AM

I sound fat: I only know my own experience.  My dad was old and tired when I was born.  He let most crap go, an hit me 5 times as I was growing up.  One of those times was a beat down that probably would have gotten him into trouble today.  But I threatened my mother and it was his duty to administer that lesson that day.

All five of those times changed my life for the better.  I remember every single time.  I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.

I personally think id be better off if I got yelled at and hit more.  Thats a slippery slope, of course, but there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage.  Scale and frequency are the key.  If your kid gets brought home from walgreens by a cop for stealing drugs, then you better damn well yell at that kid.  At least.  THAT is  your duty as a parent.


My father whipped me once for setting the carpet on fire at 2 am.  I was seven and was grounded for a month.
I still will think twice before touching a book of matches.

The neighbor kids got caught and got a stern lecture and ice cream.  They burned their garage down a week later.  Their parents blamed my parents for not teaching me about fire in the first place.

My grandmother told me that if i did not wait for her to hold my hand crossing the highway she would take me in the shopping center drop my trou, and spank me in front of everyone.  A promise she made good on.

I still think about her when crossing the street.
 
2013-11-07 03:06:37 AM

Tuskan_Roeder: mbillips: I gotta say, my parents never yelled at me. Beat me a few times, but no yelling. Yelling is a sign of weakness. Also, in the South, yelling is what happens immediately before firearms come into play. Do not yell at us, Yankee asshole bosses. It won't end well.

You're right about things not ending well after Southerners break out the firearms.  If last time is any indication, there'll be a thirty mile strip between Atlanta and Savannah that ends up pillaged and burnt, and Savannah given as a prize to the president...

I would duck, but I'm not sure if you guys have switched to rifled bores yet or not...


I lived in Atlanta and their is plenty of yelling every day on GA 400.  People do yell in the south.
 
2013-11-07 03:07:00 AM
Just got done with my mother yelling at me, getting a kick. . .

/grief does strange things to people
 
2013-11-07 03:07:12 AM
My father was a bully. I hate using the word, because it's lost much of its meaning these days, but he really was. Scream, yell, intimidate, spank to enforce his will. What good does standing in a corner for 3 hours do? What did he hope to achieve by cowing his children into silence the times he wanted to have a discussion? Disagreeing and speaking one's mind equated to talking back. Yes sir, no sir. He was military, so I get it. I know, at the end of the day, his intentions were good. I know I had it better than he did when he was a kid. I know his dad beat the living shiat out of him on a regular basis, and that he held his dad in high regard. My mother is sneaky, manipulative, bratty, and a doormat all at the same time.

I haven't really spoken to my parents in 15 years. I get regular cards and letters, and they all go, unopened, into a box. So I guess it says something that I haven't just tossed them.  Still, I moved out at 19 and never looked back. Apparently, he went through a big life shift long while back and is a completely different guy now, full of remorse and regret, but I really can't make myself give a shiat. He made his choices, and now he's paying the price.

I think of my wife's parents as my own, and love them to death. They're all the parents I need.
 
2013-11-07 03:09:20 AM

theflatline: I sound fat: I only know my own experience.  My dad was old and tired when I was born.  He let most crap go, an hit me 5 times as I was growing up.  One of those times was a beat down that probably would have gotten him into trouble today.  But I threatened my mother and it was his duty to administer that lesson that day.

All five of those times changed my life for the better.  I remember every single time.  I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.

I personally think id be better off if I got yelled at and hit more.  Thats a slippery slope, of course, but there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage.  Scale and frequency are the key.  If your kid gets brought home from walgreens by a cop for stealing drugs, then you better damn well yell at that kid.  At least.  THAT is  your duty as a parent.

My father whipped me once for setting the carpet on fire at 2 am.  I was seven and was grounded for a month.
I still will think twice before touching a book of matches.

The neighbor kids got caught and got a stern lecture and ice cream.  They burned their garage down a week later.  Their parents blamed my parents for not teaching me about fire in the first place.

My grandmother told me that if i did not wait for her to hold my hand crossing the highway she would take me in the shopping center drop my trou, and spank me in front of everyone.  A promise she made good on.

I still think about her when crossing the street.

 
2013-11-07 03:09:31 AM
This person doesn't have enough years under her belt to write an article like this one.

The trick is to find, we'll go with, "behavior modification" technique that the child responds to. That might be yelling, spanking, timeout or whatever your creative mommy/daddy mind can come up with.


"the only real option is to coolly rescind a privilege according to a plan you have already discussed with your demon offspring-and then to disengage."

This works and it doesn't. One child of mine it worked really well with. Another one, it didn't.
 
2013-11-07 03:10:14 AM

robohobo: theflatline: I sound fat: I only know my own experience.  My dad was old and tired when I was born.  He let most crap go, an hit me 5 times as I was growing up.  One of those times was a beat down that probably would have gotten him into trouble today.  But I threatened my mother and it was his duty to administer that lesson that day.

All five of those times changed my life for the better.  I remember every single time.  I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.

I personally think id be better off if I got yelled at and hit more.  Thats a slippery slope, of course, but there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage.  Scale and frequency are the key.  If your kid gets brought home from walgreens by a cop for stealing drugs, then you better damn well yell at that kid.  At least.  THAT is  your duty as a parent.

My father whipped me once for setting the carpet on fire at 2 am.  I was seven and was grounded for a month.
I still will think twice before touching a book of matches.

The neighbor kids got caught and got a stern lecture and ice cream.  They burned their garage down a week later.  Their parents blamed my parents for not teaching me about fire in the first place.

My grandmother told me that if i did not wait for her to hold my hand crossing the highway she would take me in the shopping center drop my trou, and spank me in front of everyone.  A promise she made good on.

I still think about her when crossing the street.


Stupid unfetchable..

content9.flixster.com
 
2013-11-07 03:10:28 AM

Atomic Spunk: I wonder what psychologists think about shock collars and cattle prods?


Was thinking of exploiting the empathy pathways... pet hamster gets tortured to various degrees based on the seriousness of infraction...

"Do you want me to hurt Fluffy?! Is that what this is about?! Do you enjoy watching Fluffy suffer?!"
 
2013-11-07 03:10:31 AM

theflatline: I sound fat: I only know my own experience.  My dad was old and tired when I was born.  He let most crap go, an hit me 5 times as I was growing up.  One of those times was a beat down that probably would have gotten him into trouble today.  But I threatened my mother and it was his duty to administer that lesson that day.

All five of those times changed my life for the better.  I remember every single time.  I did not need an explanation as to what I did wrong, because it was obvious.

I personally think id be better off if I got yelled at and hit more.  Thats a slippery slope, of course, but there is nothing inherently wrong with any form of discipline that leaves no broken bones or permanent damage.  Scale and frequency are the key.  If your kid gets brought home from walgreens by a cop for stealing drugs, then you better damn well yell at that kid.  At least.  THAT is  your duty as a parent.

My father whipped me once for setting the carpet on fire at 2 am.  I was seven and was grounded for a month.
I still will think twice before touching a book of matches.

The neighbor kids got caught and got a stern lecture and ice cream.  They burned their garage down a week later.  Their parents blamed my parents for not teaching me about fire in the first place.

My grandmother told me that if i did not wait for her to hold my hand crossing the highway she would take me in the shopping center drop my trou, and spank me in front of everyone.  A promise she made good on.

I still think about her when crossing the street.


I was probably five when me and a buddy skipped school to go buy candy.  I still remember my dad furiously pulling me by the arm into the car, taking me home, and just spanking the life out of me.
Guess who never skipped a single class again?  At least until college...
 
2013-11-07 03:10:39 AM
Don't tell this Dad that:

img.fark.net
 
2013-11-07 03:11:20 AM

theflatline: My grandmother told me that if i did not wait for her to hold my hand crossing the highway she would take me in the shopping center drop my trou, and spank me in front of everyone. A promise she made good on.

I still think about her when crossing the street.


I was half expecting you to say you still think about her every time you take your pants off.
 
2013-11-07 03:19:15 AM

robohobo: ..at the end of the day, his intentions were good.
.


Obviously I don't know a thing about your relationship with your dad other than what you wrote, but I thought I'd quote the section above because it really says a lot about what separates a good parent from a bad one. We aren't taught how to be good parents, unfortunately, and many make some bad mistakes. But as long as their intentions are good, I'd like to think there's something worth salvaging.
 
2013-11-07 03:21:13 AM

nulluspixiusdemonica: Atomic Spunk: I wonder what psychologists think about shock collars and cattle prods?

Was thinking of exploiting the empathy pathways... pet hamster gets tortured to various degrees based on the seriousness of infraction...

"Do you want me to hurt Fluffy?! Is that what this is about?! Do you enjoy watching Fluffy suffer?!"


Not a joke. Hurting or killing a beloved pet is a great way to control kids.
 
2013-11-07 03:27:41 AM

Atomic Spunk: /father of a teenager


As someone who has gone through dealing with a teenager, I think it's prudent to remind you that killing the little bastard is generally frowned upon by society and might land you in jail, no matter how reasonable it seems at the time.

I found a far more painful punishment was to take away computer and cell phone privileges.  Her death screams could be heard for blocks.

/I'm serious.  She screamed so much when I took away her cell phone a neighbor called the police.
 
2013-11-07 03:28:25 AM

bdub77: As many commenters have already pointed out, this leaves parents' hands even more tied than they were already. No spanking. Timeouts don't really work. Bribery is wrong. Death-stares, displaying no reaction, walking away, distraction, and gentle explanation of wrongdoing are all suboptimal. Now yelling is off the table, too. According to Alan E. Kazdin, author of The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child, the only real option is to coolly rescind a privilege according to a plan you have already discussed with your demon offspring-and then to disengage. (Or perhaps to resign yourself to the fact that your children will forever be maladjusted feral animals.)

I caught 'infuriating spawn', 'demon offspring', and 'maladjusted feral animals' in the first few paragraphs.

First off, "Katy", I'm really sorry your kids are assholes.


With that language?  Not only does she not have any kids; she's probably a Childfree.
 
2013-11-07 03:28:34 AM

i upped my meds-up yours: nulluspixiusdemonica: Atomic Spunk: I wonder what psychologists think about shock collars and cattle prods?

Was thinking of exploiting the empathy pathways... pet hamster gets tortured to various degrees based on the seriousness of infraction...

"Do you want me to hurt Fluffy?! Is that what this is about?! Do you enjoy watching Fluffy suffer?!"

Not a joke. Hurting or killing a beloved pet is a great way to control kids.


That's farked up.  I hope you die lonely and forgotten.
 
2013-11-07 03:38:18 AM

OgreMagi: i upped my meds-up yours: nulluspixiusdemonica: Atomic Spunk: I wonder what psychologists think about shock collars and cattle prods?

Was thinking of exploiting the empathy pathways... pet hamster gets tortured to various degrees based on the seriousness of infraction...

"Do you want me to hurt Fluffy?! Is that what this is about?! Do you enjoy watching Fluffy suffer?!"

Not a joke. Hurting or killing a beloved pet is a great way to control kids.

That's farked up.  I hope you die lonely and forgotten.


Wait. Where did I say i approve of doing that?
 
2013-11-07 03:40:46 AM

OgreMagi: Atomic Spunk: /father of a teenager

As someone who has gone through dealing with a teenager, I think it's prudent to remind you that killing the little bastard is generally frowned upon by society and might land you in jail, no matter how reasonable it seems at the time.

I found a far more painful punishment was to take away computer and cell phone privileges.  Her death screams could be heard for blocks.

/I'm serious.  She screamed so much when I took away her cell phone a neighbor called the police.


We can't take my daughter off the computer completely because she needs it for school, but we keep it in our room so she can't use it after we fall asleep. Her cell phone is in our possession from 6pm to 6am and we got her an old school flip phone with no texting. Jeez, this parenting thing just wears me out sometimes.
 
2013-11-07 03:41:02 AM

Atomic Spunk: But as long as their intentions are good, I'd like to think there's something worth salvaging.



I know my parents had good intentions when they were raising me, but that doesn't excuse all the broken bones and scars I received as a child, nor does it excuse the fact that after I escaped they tracked me down and beat me so bad I wound up in ICU.

They're both in jail now for attempted murder (among other things), but do you think that relationship is worth salvaging? After all, their intentions really were good in their eyes, so should I sit down and try to have a real relationship with them? Or does that only apply when the biggest offense is an occasional light beating?
 
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