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(The Atlantic)   His Hail Mary passes are always completed...his church's pancake breakfasts are cooked by St. Alfonzo himself...the angels want to wear his red shoes...He is...the most interesting Pope in the world   (theatlantic.com) divider line 80
    More: Interesting, Hail Mary, Bergoglio, love of God, Roman Catholic theology, essential element, full member, Irving Kristol, cultural change  
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4263 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Nov 2013 at 11:18 AM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-06 10:48:06 AM
In an astonishing concession, he opines that the Church's sensitivity to the course of human events might someday lead it to discard the celibacy requirement for the clergy.

As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.
 
2013-11-06 11:23:05 AM
Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes. Big deal. Hitler, now with 10% less Jew-hatred and a kinder, gentler Fascism, is still Hitler.

Yeah, I Godwinned this baby with a quickness. Page me when they stop sheltering crooks and boy-buggerers in the higher reaches of the Curia. Or hating women. Or maintaining that AIDS is better than condoms. Or that the raped shouldn't have abortions because Jesus. Or...well, I could go on.
 
2013-11-06 11:23:51 AM
This new guy is nothing like the last pope. I bet this guy doesn't even rape the altar boys...
 
2013-11-06 11:25:34 AM
As he is the only pope in the world, he is both the least interesting and most interesting.
 
2013-11-06 11:25:42 AM
He turns altar boys into altar men
 
2013-11-06 11:25:51 AM

Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes. Big deal. Hitler, now with 10% less Jew-hatred and a kinder, gentler Fascism, is still Hitler.

Yeah, I Godwinned this baby with a quickness. Page me when they stop sheltering crooks and boy-buggerers in the higher reaches of the Curia. Or hating women. Or maintaining that AIDS is better than condoms. Or that the raped shouldn't have abortions because Jesus. Or...well, I could go on.


Ah, to be 15 again.
 
2013-11-06 11:26:14 AM

Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes.


That. He still had a priest excommunicated for supporting gay marriage.
 
2013-11-06 11:27:12 AM
+1 for the Zappa reference, subby.
 
2013-11-06 11:29:06 AM
In so arguing, he presents a vision of Catholicism that is both deeply principled and unabashedly heterodox.

englishedithelp.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-11-06 11:29:29 AM
They're so light and fluffy white! He'll raise a fortune by tonight!
 
2013-11-06 11:30:29 AM

duffblue: Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes. Big deal. Hitler, now with 10% less Jew-hatred and a kinder, gentler Fascism, is still Hitler.

Yeah, I Godwinned this baby with a quickness. Page me when they stop sheltering crooks and boy-buggerers in the higher reaches of the Curia. Or hating women. Or maintaining that AIDS is better than condoms. Or that the raped shouldn't have abortions because Jesus. Or...well, I could go on.

Ah, to be 15 again.


Everybody was molested back then.

cdn.screenfad.com
 
2013-11-06 11:32:26 AM

Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes. Big deal. Hitler, now with 10% less Jew-hatred and a kinder, gentler Fascism, is still Hitler.


This is missing the forest for the trees. You can't get doctrine out of religion. Even Jesus couldn't - hence the convolution of "casting the first stone". What would you do if you were Pope but had to operate within doctrinal limits? You would deemphasize doctrine and put the focus on helping the poor and being understanding to others.

If you believe that the Pope can just come out and say "yeah, we were wrong - butt sex is actually cool per the Lord", you are deluded and have no place in this conversation.
 
2013-11-06 11:32:30 AM
I don't always drink wine, but when I do, I prefer Jesus' Blood.

Stay thirsty, my friends.
 
2013-11-06 11:32:38 AM

Theaetetus: Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes.

That. He still had a priest excommunicated for supporting gay marriage. leaving the clergy and forming his own branch of Christianity.


FTFY

/assuming you're talking about what I think you're talking about
 
2013-11-06 11:34:06 AM
www.catholicnews.com
/Stay thirsty my friends...
 
2013-11-06 11:34:22 AM

Caelistis: +1 for the Zappa reference, subby.


+1 for the Elvis Costello reference as well, though "the angels want him to wear their red shoes" would have been more precise.
 
2013-11-06 11:34:39 AM

miss diminutive: In an astonishing concession, he opines that the Church's sensitivity to the course of human events might someday lead it to discard the celibacy requirement for the clergy.

As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.


Sorry, the church is still catching up with 19th century injustices.  The early 20th century will be soon.
 
2013-11-06 11:35:35 AM
Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes. Big deal. Hitler, now with 10% less Jew-hatred and a kinder, gentler Fascism, is still Hitler.


I had always heard Hitler was for exterminating the mentally incompetent. I can see why you feel so strongly about him.
 
2013-11-06 11:37:03 AM

grumpfuff: Theaetetus: Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes.

That. He still had a priest excommunicated for supporting gay marriage. leaving the clergy and forming his own branch of Christianity.

FTFY

/assuming you're talking about what I think you're talking about


Didn't hear any of that. I'm talking about Reynolds. Who are you talking about?
 
2013-11-06 11:39:41 AM
I bet the handsome parish ladies swoon for him.
 
2013-11-06 11:45:22 AM

snarfyboy: As he is the only pope in the world, he is both the least interesting and most interesting.


He is not the only Pope in the world.  The Coptic Bishop of Alexandria and the Greek Orthodox Bishop of Alexandria both have the title of Pope.
 
2013-11-06 11:46:06 AM
See, all it took was a new PR firm.
 
2013-11-06 11:46:13 AM

Theaetetus: grumpfuff: Theaetetus: Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes.

That. He still had a priest excommunicated for supporting gay marriage. leaving the clergy and forming his own branch of Christianity.

FTFY

/assuming you're talking about what I think you're talking about

Didn't hear any of that. I'm talking about Reynolds. Who are you talking about?


Everything I've found on Reynolds says he was excommunicated for supporting the ordination of women(specifically, speaking out publicly against Church doctrine), and possibly for disrespect of the communion wafers. I can't find a single thing about his stance on gay marriage, let alone him supporting it.

Can't remember the name of the guy I'm thinking of, but I don't think he was from Australia.
 
2013-11-06 11:47:29 AM
Human society has evolved greatly in 6,000 years so the religions of the world should evolve accordingly, or die.
 
2013-11-06 11:51:19 AM
I guess I'm just a Jesuit at heart. I've wandered far from the Church, but everything I've heard from this guy resonates with me very deeply. I would very much like to sit down and talk with him sometime. He reminds me of the Catholicism I was raised to believe in, as opposed to the one I actually got.
 
2013-11-06 11:52:19 AM

Theaetetus: Reynolds . . .


Reynolds formed his own ministry called "Inconclusive Catholics" or some such thing, and operated in direct contradiction to canonically lawful decrees.

His excommunication was not well reported in the secular press, but it seems to me he was in knowing violation of at least three canons.
 
2013-11-06 11:52:45 AM

grumpfuff: Theaetetus: grumpfuff: Theaetetus: Valiente: Seriously. People are going apeshiat because this guy is fractionally less doctrinaire and inflexible than the party line for the last three popes.

That. He still had a priest excommunicated for supporting gay marriage. leaving the clergy and forming his own branch of Christianity.

FTFY

/assuming you're talking about what I think you're talking about

Didn't hear any of that. I'm talking about Reynolds. Who are you talking about?

Everything I've found on Reynolds says he was excommunicated for supporting the ordination of women(specifically, speaking out publicly against Church doctrine), and possibly for disrespect of the communion wafers. I can't find a single thing about his stance on gay marriage, let alone him supporting it.

Can't remember the name of the guy I'm thinking of, but I don't think he was from Australia.


Yeah, that's the guy:
On the heels of Pope Francis' groundbreaking remarks faulting the Roman Catholic Church for being overly focused on homosexuality and abortion, news has emerged that the pontiff ordered the excommunication of a priest who advocated for women's rights and gay marriage.

Also, it looks like "disrespect of the communion wafers" wasn't something like pissing on them or using them to make Oreos, but rather "holding unauthorized communion ceremonies." It's not clear exactly what that means, but most likely, it was giving communion to people who the Church ban from receiving communion - e.g. gays.
 
2013-11-06 11:56:15 AM
Theaetetus:
Also, it looks like "disrespect of the communion wafers" wasn't something like pissing on them or using them to make Oreos, but rather "holding unauthorized communion ceremonies." It's not clear exactly what that means, but most likely, it was giving communion to people who the Church ban from receiving communion - e.g. gays.


Actually he was accused of giving communion to a dog.

Further, it should be noted that Pope Francis did not excommunicate him. His bishop started the proceedings with the CDF, not Francis. All Francis did was not step on another bishop's case -- which is frankly good politics no matter how you slice it.
 
2013-11-06 11:57:20 AM

Kope: Theaetetus: Reynolds . . .

Reynolds formed his own ministry called "Inconclusive Catholics" or some such thing, and operated in direct contradiction to canonically lawful decrees.


"Inclusive Catholics" - bit of a big difference there. And yes, the direct contradiction to canon law may have included things like including homosexuals in communion.

And so what about "canonically lawful decrees"? I'm not saying the pope did something illegal by excommunicating him - I'm saying the pope is not the wonderful font of liberalness that the press is swooning over. Excommunicating someone for violating canon law in the spirit of being inclusive (y'know, like Jesus?), is still a dick move, even if it's perfectly legal.
 
2013-11-06 11:57:29 AM

mutterfark: Human society has evolved greatly in 6,000 years so the religions of the world should evolve accordingly, or die.



Wellll, it has been tried, w/o a whole lot of success so far.

Scientologists are imploding, money poisoning. Can't think of a ready replacement.
 
2013-11-06 12:01:02 PM

Kope: Theaetetus:
Also, it looks like "disrespect of the communion wafers" wasn't something like pissing on them or using them to make Oreos, but rather "holding unauthorized communion ceremonies." It's not clear exactly what that means, but most likely, it was giving communion to people who the Church ban from receiving communion - e.g. gays.


Actually he was accused of giving communion to a dog.


Not by anyone who was there: Archbishop Denis Hart appeared to verify that he sided with Reynolds' account of what transpired.
"From media reports, the archdiocese is aware of the presence of Reynolds where the sacred species were given by another person to an animal. That anyone would feed the Eucharist to an animal is an abomination," Hart said.
... a first-time visitor to the group's Mass, held in a southeast Melbourne suburb, arrived late along with his German shepherd. When the paten with the Eucharist circulated through the room, the man took a host, broke off a piece and gave it to his dog.
Reynolds told NCR he did not learn of the incident until after Mass, when someone informed him about it.
"Only a few people observed it, including the journalist," he said.
A person who attended the liturgy confirmed to NCR that the first-time visitor, not Reynolds, gave the host to the dog, calling the action "spontaneous and completely unexpected."

Further, it should be noted that Pope Francis did not excommunicate him. His bishop started the proceedings with the CDF, not Francis. All Francis did was not step on another bishop's case -- which is frankly good politics no matter how you slice it.


Ah, so you're saying the Pope is a figurehead with no authority, and that the buck stops elsewhere? Sorry, but that doesn't cut it, not when Francis' signature is on the document.
 
2013-11-06 12:01:37 PM
Oh, and thanks for the dog reference. Had to look that up.
 
2013-11-06 12:02:32 PM
He's ok, but I heard he stole the margarine.
 
2013-11-06 12:07:56 PM

Theaetetus: Kope: Theaetetus: Reynolds . . .

Reynolds formed his own ministry called "Inconclusive Catholics" or some such thing, and operated in direct contradiction to canonically lawful decrees.

"Inclusive Catholics" - bit of a big difference there. And yes, the direct contradiction to canon law may have included things like including homosexuals in communion.

And so what about "canonically lawful decrees"? I'm not saying the pope did something illegal by excommunicating him - I'm saying the pope is not the wonderful font of liberalness that the press is swooning over. Excommunicating someone for violating canon law in the spirit of being inclusive (y'know, like Jesus?), is still a dick move, even if it's perfectly legal.


The big one is that after he was resigned from his pastoral role, he held a celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly as a priest. I can find no evidence that his excommunication had anything to do with distributing the Eucharist to homosexuals.

Moreover, there is no canonical justification for withholding the eucharist based on the presumption of sin. Indeed, there's explicit canonical demands against that . . .

To get to the heart of where Reynolds screwed up we need a bit of theology background:

The Eucharist celebration, in Catholic theology, is celebrated by the Bishop ALONE. Only the Bishop holds the eucharistic feast. Priests act as local conveyors of the Bishop's actions. They act in his name.

If a Bishop with holds the faculties from a priest to perform the ceremony and the priest does so, it creates a theological issue around the sacrament. It is said to be 'valid but illicit.'

Priests who perform illicit sacraments tend to get their asses handed to them.

There really is big story here.

And again, it was Reynolds' bishop who brought the case to the CDF. There's no way Francis would step into a case like that. It is Hart's dioceses, and Hart gets to make the disciplinary calls in his own episcopacy.
 
2013-11-06 12:10:43 PM

Theaetetus: Kope: 
Ah, so you're saying the Pope is a figurehead with no authority, and that the buck stops elsewhere? Sorry, but that doesn't cut it, not when Francis' signature is on the document.


No, I'm saying that the Pope is first among equals, and that the head of an episcopal seat is going to get what he wants in cases like this. The CDF investigates the matter and makes a recommendation that goes to Francis for action. I'm sure the Pope called up Hart and said "it's your priest and your diocese, is this what you want or not?" and then acted accordingly. 

Any other act would be both canonically and politically unwise on Francis' part.
 
2013-11-06 12:12:13 PM

miss diminutive: In an astonishing concession, he opines that the Church's sensitivity to the course of human events might someday lead it to discard the celibacy requirement for the clergy.

As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.


http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-spokesperson-women-card in als-theoretically-possible
 
2013-11-06 12:12:24 PM

miss diminutive: In an astonishing concession, he opines that the Church's sensitivity to the course of human events might someday lead it to discard the celibacy requirement for the clergy.

As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.


Not going to happen. I think a lot of people are confusing the Pope's "be less of a dick" policy with liberalization of Church teachings.
 
2013-11-06 12:13:35 PM

Kope: To get to the heart of where Reynolds screwed up we need a bit of theology background:


Yeah, that'll go over well around here.
 
2013-11-06 12:13:36 PM

miss diminutive: As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.


Easy with the crazy talk, Lucifer.
 
2013-11-06 12:14:01 PM

brandent: miss diminutive: In an astonishing concession, he opines that the Church's sensitivity to the course of human events might someday lead it to discard the celibacy requirement for the clergy.

As progressive as that is (and as much as it'll enrage large numbers of conservative Catholics - which is a good thing), wake me up when they allow women into the clergy.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/vatican-spokesperson-women-card in als-theoretically-possible


Better link.  The Vatican's Baghdad Bob is denying it so that means it is likely in my opinion.  Female Cardinal.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-will-not-appoint-firs t- female-cardinal-in-catholic-church-history-vatican-rebukes-rumors-1080 13/
 
2013-11-06 12:14:31 PM
I love this new pope. But it raises some issues.

Were the previous infallible popes wrong? Or is this infallible pope wrong?
 
2013-11-06 12:14:57 PM

Theaetetus: Kope: Theaetetus: Reynolds . . .

Reynolds formed his own ministry called "Inconclusive Catholics" or some such thing, and operated in direct contradiction to canonically lawful decrees.

"Inclusive Catholics" - bit of a big difference there. And yes, the direct contradiction to canon law may have included things like including homosexuals in communion.

And so what about "canonically lawful decrees"? I'm not saying the pope did something illegal by excommunicating him - I'm saying the pope is not the wonderful font of liberalness that the press is swooning over. Excommunicating someone for violating canon law in the spirit of being inclusive (y'know, like Jesus?), is still a dick move, even if it's perfectly legal.


http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/09/pope-francis-excommuni ca ted-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination/69827/

FTA:

"A letter to the other priests in the archdiocese explained that his excommunication was "because of his public teaching on the ordination of women."

Again, while his support of the LGBT may(or may not) have had a role, the reasons specified has nothing to do with gay marriage.

And if what was said up thread about how he formed his own ministry is true, that in and of itself is grounds for excommunication, even if that ministry is identical to the RCC.

Though this is definitely not the guy I'm thinking about, as forming his own church was specifically mentioned as grounds for excommunication.
 
2013-11-06 12:16:21 PM
I gotta give Papa Francis his props for beginning to try to bring the Church into the present day and age. The task is near impossible - such a monolithic entity as the Catholic Church will resist any attempt to change its course, just like a mountain tends to stay firmly rooted in place. But, if that's going to happen, it has to start somewhere...one grain of sand a time. He's taking the first baby steps in the right direction. One can only hope that it continues.

/lapsed Catholic. Not likely to come back to the Church just yet, but I like the direction Francis has chosen.
 
2013-11-06 12:17:28 PM

grumpfuff: Theaetetus: Kope: Theaetetus: Reynolds . . .

Reynolds formed his own ministry called "Inconclusive Catholics" or some such thing, and operated in direct contradiction to canonically lawful decrees.

"Inclusive Catholics" - bit of a big difference there. And yes, the direct contradiction to canon law may have included things like including homosexuals in communion.

And so what about "canonically lawful decrees"? I'm not saying the pope did something illegal by excommunicating him - I'm saying the pope is not the wonderful font of liberalness that the press is swooning over. Excommunicating someone for violating canon law in the spirit of being inclusive (y'know, like Jesus?), is still a dick move, even if it's perfectly legal.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/09/pope-francis-excommuni ca ted-priest-who-supports-womens-ordination/69827/

FTA:

"A letter to the other priests in the archdiocese explained that his excommunication was "because of his public teaching on the ordination of women."

Again, while his support of the LGBT may(or may not) have had a role, the reasons specified has nothing to do with gay marriage.

And if what was said up thread about how he formed his own ministry is true, that in and of itself is grounds for excommunication, even if that ministry is identical to the RCC.

Though this is definitely not the guy I'm thinking about, as forming his own church was specifically mentioned as grounds for that guy's excommunication.


ftfm
 
2013-11-06 12:17:50 PM

Kope: Moreover, there is no canonical justification for withholding the eucharist based on the presumption of sin. Indeed, there's explicit canonical demands against that . . .


What about 1 Cor. 11:27-28, which suggests that taking communion in an unworthy matter is profane, or the various requirements that Catholics confession and seek penance prior to taking communion? An unrepentant homosexual would seem to not qualify, under those rules.

With respect to the particular jurisdiction of the Bishops, I defer to your superior knowledge.
 
2013-11-06 12:18:46 PM

Valiente: Or that the raped shouldn't have abortions because Jesus.


I don't see a problem with that belief, provided that one believes abortion is murder (as Catholics do). The circumstances of a person's conception can't make them not a person anymore.

That said, they'd be even more morally consistent if they passed out contraception (or maybe libido-killing pills) like candy, rather than trying to prevent abortions by preventing nonprocreative sex.
 
2013-11-06 12:20:42 PM
FTFA: Bergoglio therefore reserves special criticism for religious leaders who rejoice in imposing their views on the public...In fact, Bergoglio believes that the separation of civil and ecclesiastical authority reflects divine intent. Since God grants humanity "freedom to sin," Bergoglio reasons, the Church must "defend the autonomy of human events," even if doing so encourages widespread violation of Catholic doctrine. Religious leaders, in Bergoglio's view, must not mistake their obligation to encourage their parishioners with a mandate for coercion. They must accept the limits of their position.

Swear to god, this guy has me thinking about returning to the flock, which I never would have thought possible.
 
2013-11-06 12:23:37 PM
FTFA: He rejects attempts to impose dogmatic principles onto human life, and thinks that the Church must be sensitive, and even sometimes deferential, to cultural change.

I haven't yet seen an article about this lad which hasn't made me go "Wow".

Wow.
 
2013-11-06 12:23:42 PM

snocone: mutterfark: Human society has evolved greatly in 6,000 years so the religions of the world should evolve accordingly, or die.


Wellll, it has been tried, w/o a whole lot of success so far.

Scientologists are imploding, money poisoning. Can't think of a ready replacement.


I am neither articulate enough, nor well educated enough to have a true philosophical discussion on this. I am an atheist, but I don't have a problem with religion per se. Religions offer a path that, if followed honestly, can lead to personal and societal benefits. So can other paths. Pope Francis sounds to me like the more liberal priests I had as a kid in  California. Popes John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 were more like the priests I had in Nebraska and West Virginia. More loving and compassion and less judgement and dogma are a good thing IMHO, so good on Francis for that. But if any religion in the modern world wants to have a "God" that includes all we now know of the universe, then I think they have to give up the anal-retentive god that knows where every blade of grass or sparrow has fallen, and by extension cares what you do with your naughty bits.

/sorry if that's too rambling and incoherent
 
2013-11-06 12:27:31 PM

snarfyboy: As he is the only pope in the world, he is both the least interesting and most interesting.


Pope Tawadros II might disagree with you, as might 15 million Coptic Christians.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
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