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(News Daily)   Barilla to clean up anti-gay image in attempt to put their noodles in gay people   (newsdaily.com) divider line 249
    More: Interesting, Alex Zanardi, gay rights activist, Formula One  
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4771 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Nov 2013 at 1:44 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-05 04:32:02 PM

menschenfresser: Hebalo: DarkVader: Hebalo: DarkVader: frepnog: menschenfresser: Right; I'm sure it actually increased business with the derp crowd. "Traditional values" my ass. Surely they could put "Family" in the name of their organization/publication like most hate groups do.

Why is it hate?

Ahh, right, just claim that hate isn't.  No one will see through that.

It's the same tactic that some of the white supremacists are taking these days, they're claiming that they don't "hate" black people, they just don't want them around.  It's disingenuous, of course.

I have a traditional family. No gay people in it. Do I need to start inviting them over every night for dinner, or risk being called a bigot?

You seriously think you're not related to anyone gay?  LOL

Why would you assume instantly that someone in my family is gay?

I suppose it's possible that you may indeed be the only family in the species without a gay member. Not awfully likely, though. Unless you mean immediate family, of course.


I did indeed mean immediate family. Though I can't think of any extended family members who are gay, I suppose there is a chance one of them is.
 
2013-11-05 04:32:14 PM

CleanAndPure: Kuroshin: kerrigand: I forgot, Christians were born Christian and gays were born gay. Doesn't seems like a choice to me. But, yet you want to keep trying to tell me that it is.


Nobody in the history of ever has been born Christian.  Never.  Not even Jesus.  Religion isn't decided by birth.  All religion is optional - sexual orientation isn't.

I figured that someone who goes around accusing others of being stupid idiots would already know this.

Religion may be a choice but children of Christians tend to be Christians... you don't find rednecks of the Graham clan growing up to be muslims.

As for sexual preference... I suspect it is partially nature and partially nurture... probably more genetics with some than others. (Being abused as a child physically or emotionally is also linked to higher rates of homosexuality... hinting that at least for some- the sum of life experiences may affect preference).


Regardless of whether it is by genes or by choice... who the hell cares? Doesn't harm anyone whether someone bonks someone of the same sex because of genes or because of life experiences.

Live and let live!
Screw and let screw!


EXACTLY.

Just don't press up on me the same things that your fighting for. Christians have done this forever and you see what it's got them. If this guy want's to do what he thinks is best for his company that's up to him. There's no one that has the "right" to tell him different. When you own your company, you're going to think about these things and you're going to try to do what best and what stays within your principles of the people that work for you and that your serving. Sometimes that doesn't always agree with the public, but that still doesn't not give them the right to attempt to instill themselves onto your company.
 
2013-11-05 04:33:25 PM

CleanAndPure: Kuroshin: kerrigand: I forgot, Christians were born Christian and gays were born gay. Doesn't seems like a choice to me. But, yet you want to keep trying to tell me that it is.


Nobody in the history of ever has been born Christian.  Never.  Not even Jesus.  Religion isn't decided by birth.  All religion is optional - sexual orientation isn't.

I figured that someone who goes around accusing others of being stupid idiots would already know this.

Religion may be a choice but children of Christians tend to be Christians... you don't find rednecks of the Graham clan growing up to be muslims.

As for sexual preference... I suspect it is partially nature and partially nurture... probably more genetics with some than others. (Being abused as a child physically or emotionally is also linked to higher rates of homosexuality... hinting that at least for some- the sum of life experiences may affect preference).


Regardless of whether it is by genes or by choice... who the hell cares? Doesn't harm anyone whether someone bonks someone of the same sex because of genes or because of life experiences.

Live and let live!
Screw and let screw!


What a healthy viewpoint to have. I'd just like to add that, as far as the "how we turn out this way" part is concerned, I really think that for a lot of people it's what happens in the womb. I'm no doctor or scientist but there's something about the brain being set up female by default so some hormone interaction with the fetal brain tissue has to take place in order to "masculinize" it for the person. If that doesn't happen, then the person is born with boy genitals but female brain - or something like that. Again, I'm nothing close to a scientist, but that sounds very plausible to me at least: "Parts" of one gender, brain of the other one = gay person. The fact that this brain "masculinization" takes place relatively late in pregnancy I think helps explain why so many premature males end up gay.
 
2013-11-05 04:34:37 PM

gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: You choose to be an asshole and well they choose to be assholes.

hmmmm.......ok.....

Oh, and your name-calling pretty much indicates your lack of a viable position.
Do you go all ITG next when I call you an idiot?

Oh and calling you an asshole, never did that, but you go ahead and believe that I did. I'll understand your dysfunction.

You have some missing chromosomes, don't you?

I realize your hatred towards me. That I can live with. I'm apparently not the one missing the chromosomes now am I?

OK, if you knew even the littlest bit about me you would know I never use the word HATE.
It is the ugliest emotion and a word I reserve for abhorrent things.

You I merely dislike. For your disingenuous fallacies, for your obvious bigotry.


Everything I said was genuine, unlike you...I'm not bigoted.
 
2013-11-05 04:37:02 PM

Hebalo: I disagree. If the guy who built the company up wants their ads to reflect a certain ethos, that's not bigoted. It's such a push button issue now that if someone so much as shows indifference to homosexuals, they're strung up in the middle of town. It's total bullshiat.

There are a lot of people actively preaching hate against gays, this guy doesn't even care about them. Does he also need to start having visible minorities in all his ads? cripples? animals? seriously, people get jazzed up about the stupidest things these days.

There are bigger fish to fry out there. Like the fish guys who don't have any gay married sailors in their ads.



You know, I see and can respect that opinion, but bigotry is in the details here.  It's not the lack of inclusion, it's the specific exclusion.  If I don't have any gay friends, that doesn't make me a bigot.  If I won't make friends with people because they're gay, that does.

Like I said, if he had simply let the question lie, no serious claim of bigotry could be leveled.  But he came out and said "nope, we don't want any part of that."  He's not preaching hate, by any stretch of the imagination.  What he did do, was to explicitly exclude a minority because they don't fit his world-view.  That is bigoted, whether one wishes to admit it or not.

Is this a big issue in itself?  Hell to the no.  It's pasta.  Flour and eggs.  We aren't dealing with Rosa Parks here.  But it is, as you pointed out, a very hot-button issue as gays are still very much oppressed in our society.  Even small things become bigger by association.  The CEO failed to think his statement through, and the impact it would have given the current climate in one of their larger markets.  He kinda stepped on his dick here, and got his company associated with the oppressing side of the fight.

When it comes down to it though, even if you're sick of hearing about these fights, the fact remains that the fight for equality continues.  I'd suggest that if you're truly tired of hearing about it, you takes steps to avoid media, because it's only going to get louder over the next several years.
 
2013-11-05 04:41:20 PM

Kuroshin: Hebalo: I disagree. If the guy who built the company up wants their ads to reflect a certain ethos, that's not bigoted. It's such a push button issue now that if someone so much as shows indifference to homosexuals, they're strung up in the middle of town. It's total bullshiat.

There are a lot of people actively preaching hate against gays, this guy doesn't even care about them. Does he also need to start having visible minorities in all his ads? cripples? animals? seriously, people get jazzed up about the stupidest things these days.

There are bigger fish to fry out there. Like the fish guys who don't have any gay married sailors in their ads.


You know, I see and can respect that opinion, but bigotry is in the details here.  It's not the lack of inclusion, it's the specific exclusion.  If I don't have any gay friends, that doesn't make me a bigot.  If I won't make friends with people because they're gay, that does.

Like I said, if he had simply let the question lie, no serious claim of bigotry could be leveled.  But he came out and said "nope, we don't want any part of that."  He's not preaching hate, by any stretch of the imagination.  What he did do, was to explicitly exclude a minority because they don't fit his world-view.  That is bigoted, whether one wishes to admit it or not.

Is this a big issue in itself?  Hell to the no.  It's pasta.  Flour and eggs.  We aren't dealing with Rosa Parks here.  But it is, as you pointed out, a very hot-button issue as gays are still very much oppressed in our society.  Even small things become bigger by association.  The CEO failed to think his statement through, and the impact it would have given the current climate in one of their larger markets.  He kinda stepped on his dick here, and got his company associated with the oppressing side of the fight.

When it comes down to it though, even if you're sick of hearing about these fights, the fact remains that the fight for equality continues.  I'd suggest that if you're t ...


Very well said.

Also, for the folks saying "we don't have to accept you," that doesn't really mean anything. You can choose not to "accept" gravity but it still exists with or without your acceptance. The universe does not need your acceptance of reality and gay people exist with or without your acceptance just the same. Some people may choose not to "accept" people with Polish accents. Mmmkay, well have fun with that. Just don't try to say that gives you license to pass laws excluding rights to them, and you can continue not to "accept" whatever you please. Nobody is trying to force anything on anyone here.
 
2013-11-05 04:41:30 PM

Kuroshin: Hebalo: I disagree. If the guy who built the company up wants their ads to reflect a certain ethos, that's not bigoted. It's such a push button issue now that if someone so much as shows indifference to homosexuals, they're strung up in the middle of town. It's total bullshiat.

There are a lot of people actively preaching hate against gays, this guy doesn't even care about them. Does he also need to start having visible minorities in all his ads? cripples? animals? seriously, people get jazzed up about the stupidest things these days.

There are bigger fish to fry out there. Like the fish guys who don't have any gay married sailors in their ads.


You know, I see and can respect that opinion, but bigotry is in the details here.  It's not the lack of inclusion, it's the specific exclusion.  If I don't have any gay friends, that doesn't make me a bigot.  If I won't make friends with people because they're gay, that does.

Like I said, if he had simply let the question lie, no serious claim of bigotry could be leveled.  But he came out and said "nope, we don't want any part of that."  He's not preaching hate, by any stretch of the imagination.  What he did do, was to explicitly exclude a minority because they don't fit his world-view.  That is bigoted, whether one wishes to admit it or not.

Is this a big issue in itself?  Hell to the no.  It's pasta.  Flour and eggs.  We aren't dealing with Rosa Parks here.  But it is, as you pointed out, a very hot-button issue as gays are still very much oppressed in our society.  Even small things become bigger by association.  The CEO failed to think his statement through, and the impact it would have given the current climate in one of their larger markets.  He kinda stepped on his dick here, and got his company associated with the oppressing side of the fight.

When it comes down to it though, even if you're sick of hearing about these fights, the fact remains that the fight for equality continues.  I'd suggest that if you're t ...


Well said.

The PC side of me is fully in favor of equal rights and gay marriage because it's right.

The not-so PC side of me wants equals rights and gay marriage so they can shut the fark up about it already.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 04:42:56 PM

kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: You choose to be an asshole and well they choose to be assholes.

hmmmm.......ok.....

Oh, and your name-calling pretty much indicates your lack of a viable position.
Do you go all ITG next when I call you an idiot?

Oh and calling you an asshole, never did that, but you go ahead and believe that I did. I'll understand your dysfunction.

You have some missing chromosomes, don't you?

I realize your hatred towards me. That I can live with. I'm apparently not the one missing the chromosomes now am I?

OK, if you knew even the littlest bit about me you would know I never use the word HATE.
It is the ugliest emotion and a word I reserve for abhorrent things.

You I merely dislike. For your disingenuous fallacies, for your obvious bigotry.

Everything I said was genuine, unlike you...I'm not bigoted.


Believe what you wish, what you will.
But do not expect to go about treating others differently because you think something determined by body chemistry is a choice.
That position is untenable. And one who does so is the embodiment of a bigot.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 04:46:41 PM

Hebalo: The PC side of me is fully in favor of equal rights and gay marriage because it's right.

The not-so PC side of me wants equals rights and gay marriage so they can shut the fark up about it already.


Here in NY it has already come to pass. And my friend of many years who is a marital attorney is already ringing the register with divorce cases.
Fat times for that bastard (love him like a brother, but he is still a bloodsucking leech).
 
2013-11-05 04:47:42 PM
Oldiron has 6 farks to give today. After hearing about barilla and some butthurt queens Oldiron still has half a dozen farks. How many farks did Oldiron give?
 
2013-11-05 04:48:12 PM

Kuroshin: Hebalo: I disagree. If the guy who built the company up wants their ads to reflect a certain ethos, that's not bigoted. It's such a push button issue now that if someone so much as shows indifference to homosexuals, they're strung up in the middle of town. It's total bullshiat.

There are a lot of people actively preaching hate against gays, this guy doesn't even care about them. Does he also need to start having visible minorities in all his ads? cripples? animals? seriously, people get jazzed up about the stupidest things these days.

There are bigger fish to fry out there. Like the fish guys who don't have any gay married sailors in their ads.


You know, I see and can respect that opinion, but bigotry is in the details here.  It's not the lack of inclusion, it's the specific exclusion.  If I don't have any gay friends, that doesn't make me a bigot.  If I won't make friends with people because they're gay, that does.

Like I said, if he had simply let the question lie, no serious claim of bigotry could be leveled.  But he came out and said "nope, we don't want any part of that."  He's not preaching hate, by any stretch of the imagination.  What he did do, was to explicitly exclude a minority because they don't fit his world-view.  That is bigoted, whether one wishes to admit it or not.

Is this a big issue in itself?  Hell to the no.  It's pasta.  Flour and eggs.  We aren't dealing with Rosa Parks here.  But it is, as you pointed out, a very hot-button issue as gays are still very much oppressed in our society.  Even small things become bigger by association.  The CEO failed to think his statement through, and the impact it would have given the current climate in one of their larger markets.  He kinda stepped on his dick here, and got his company associated with the oppressing side of the fight.

When it comes down to it though, even if you're sick of hearing about these fights, the fact remains that the fight for equality continues.  I'd suggest that if you're t ...


So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.
 
2013-11-05 04:49:28 PM

Oldiron_79: Oldiron has 6 farks to give today. After hearing about barilla and some butthurt queens Oldiron still has half a dozen farks. How many farks did Oldiron give?


Some of us really are"butthurt queens" but not in the sense you (probably) meant that!
 
2013-11-05 04:51:41 PM

gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: gja: kerrigand: You choose to be an asshole and well they choose to be assholes.

hmmmm.......ok.....

Oh, and your name-calling pretty much indicates your lack of a viable position.
Do you go all ITG next when I call you an idiot?

Oh and calling you an asshole, never did that, but you go ahead and believe that I did. I'll understand your dysfunction.

You have some missing chromosomes, don't you?

I realize your hatred towards me. That I can live with. I'm apparently not the one missing the chromosomes now am I?

OK, if you knew even the littlest bit about me you would know I never use the word HATE.
It is the ugliest emotion and a word I reserve for abhorrent things.

You I merely dislike. For your disingenuous fallacies, for your obvious bigotry.

Everything I said was genuine, unlike you...I'm not bigoted.

Believe what you wish, what you will.
But do not expect to go about treating others differently because you think something determined by body chemistry is a choice.
That position is untenable. And one who does so is the embodiment of a bigot.


See that's not what I ever did. You did that. You chose to believe me a bigot and that's your choice although that's not what was ever stated. You wanted to believe that of me and in your mind, that's what you got. You go ahead and go back to your logs of the conversation and see. What I said and what you wanted to hear are two different things. You just wanted to be pissed off at someone and I was the closest person that fit your bill. I plainly stated, that forcing views does not persuade people. It actually dissuades them. If you took it as offensive then that's on you and you alone.
 
2013-11-05 04:52:06 PM

kerrigand: Kuroshin: I'm beginning to wonder if he's a Republican politician.  Seems to forget that anything put on the internet exists forever.  Everything said can be pulled up on a whim.

That's right. Don't forget it. I'm not a republican nor a politician. I'm just someone that your trying to convince and your not having any luck in doing so. You don't like it. So I must be one of the hated few.




Did you skip over the post? I was correlating you with an (R) because of their propensity to forget that everything they say is being recorded and can be brought up on a whim.  You denied saying something you very clearly said (and were quoted as saying).  So while I have no doubt that you are indeed not a politician, I can suggest that you might actually have a shot in the (R) camp...

As for convincing you of something...  Uh, I'm pretty sure I haven't been trying to.  Like I said, I'm not talking *to* you, I'm talking *at* you.  You are a proxy - a cipher - not an actual part of this conversation.  You have yet to make any attempt at rational discourse, so that's all you can be.


menschenfresser: CleanAndPure: Kuroshin: kerrigand: I forgot, Christians were born Christian and gays were born gay. Doesn't seems like a choice to me. But, yet you want to keep trying to tell me that it is.


Nobody in the history of ever has been born Christian.  Never.  Not even Jesus.  Religion isn't decided by birth.  All religion is optional - sexual orientation isn't.

I figured that someone who goes around accusing others of being stupid idiots would already know this.

Religion may be a choice but children of Christians tend to be Christians... you don't find rednecks of the Graham clan growing up to be muslims.

As for sexual preference... I suspect it is partially nature and partially nurture... probably more genetics with some than others. (Being abused as a child physically or emotionally is also linked to higher rates of homosexuality... hinting that at least for some- the sum of life experiences may affect preference).


Regardless of whether it is by genes or by choice... who the hell cares? Doesn't harm anyone whether someone bonks someone of the same sex because of genes or because of life experiences.

Live and let live!
Screw and let screw!

What a healthy viewpoint to have. I'd just like to add that, as far as the "how we turn out this way" part is concerned, I really think that for a lot of people it's what happens in the womb. I'm no doctor or scientist but there's something about the brain being set up female by default so some hormone interaction with the fetal brain tissue has to take place in order to "masculinize" it for the person. If that doesn't happen, then the person is born with boy genitals but female brain - or something like that. Again, I'm nothing close to a scientist, but that sounds very plausible to me at least: "Parts" of one gender, brain of the other one = gay person. The fact that this brain "masculinization" takes place relatively late in pregnancy I think helps explain why so many premature males end up gay.




Trying to keep from multi-posting, so I'mma just going to condense...  But  menschenfresser, you are correct.  It's been shown to be due to development in the womb, and not genetics per se.

And yes,  CleanAndPure, Christians beget Christians because children are programmable by their parents.  They are born without religion, and then programmed with one by their parents.  Homosexuals are born homosexual, which was my point to the troll above.


kerrigand: EXACTLY.

Just don't press up on me the same things that your fighting for. Christians have done this forever and you see what it's got them. If this guy want's to do what he thinks is best for his company that's up to him. There's no one that has the "right" to tell him different. When you own your company, you're going to think about these things and you're going to try to do what best and what stays within your principles of the people that work for you and that your serving. Sometimes that doesn't always agree with the public, but that still doesn't not give them the right to attempt to instill themselves onto your company.




Nobody has said they have to.  You're building a rather impressive straw man there.  He made bigoted statements.  People got upset, and decided to no longer buy his products.  That's it.  End of story.  Nobody is trying to force his company to use gay adverts, or even change his opinion.  They are merely using their right to free speech to criticize him.  It's their right, just as it is his to do what he wants with his company.  Like I said earlier: It's win-win.

You seem to be pushing this whole "the gays are forcing their beliefs on others!" line, and it's really not working.  Gays don't have "beliefs" as a collective.  There is no collective of gays to have a belief in the first place.  "Gay" is not a club one joins.  It's a state of being, similar to being blonde, black, female, etc.  It's just biology - not an ethos.
 
2013-11-05 04:53:26 PM

Hebalo: Kuroshin: Hebalo: I disagree. If the guy who built the company up wants their ads to reflect a certain ethos, that's not bigoted. It's such a push button issue now that if someone so much as shows indifference to homosexuals, they're strung up in the middle of town. It's total bullshiat.

There are a lot of people actively preaching hate against gays, this guy doesn't even care about them. Does he also need to start having visible minorities in all his ads? cripples? animals? seriously, people get jazzed up about the stupidest things these days.

There are bigger fish to fry out there. Like the fish guys who don't have any gay married sailors in their ads.


You know, I see and can respect that opinion, but bigotry is in the details here.  It's not the lack of inclusion, it's the specific exclusion.  If I don't have any gay friends, that doesn't make me a bigot.  If I won't make friends with people because they're gay, that does.

Like I said, if he had simply let the question lie, no serious claim of bigotry could be leveled.  But he came out and said "nope, we don't want any part of that."  He's not preaching hate, by any stretch of the imagination.  What he did do, was to explicitly exclude a minority because they don't fit his world-view.  That is bigoted, whether one wishes to admit it or not.

Is this a big issue in itself?  Hell to the no.  It's pasta.  Flour and eggs.  We aren't dealing with Rosa Parks here.  But it is, as you pointed out, a very hot-button issue as gays are still very much oppressed in our society.  Even small things become bigger by association.  The CEO failed to think his statement through, and the impact it would have given the current climate in one of their larger markets.  He kinda stepped on his dick here, and got his company associated with the oppressing side of the fight.

When it comes down to it though, even if you're sick of hearing about these fights, the fact remains that the fight for equality continues.  I'd suggest that i ...

 
The text in bold (above) gets across the point, I think. Nobody thinks you have to be "advocating" for them. Just don't try to do anything to exclude them or to single them out specifically as not deserving rights others have.
 
2013-11-05 04:55:45 PM
Sweet! Some internet bandwagon outrage fuel. Lets all jump on and get offended!
 
2013-11-05 05:00:15 PM

Kuroshin: kerrigand: Kuroshin: I'm beginning to wonder if he's a Republican politician.  Seems to forget that anything put on the internet exists forever.  Everything said can be pulled up on a whim.

That's right. Don't forget it. I'm not a republican nor a politician. I'm just someone that your trying to convince and your not having any luck in doing so. You don't like it. So I must be one of the hated few.


Did you skip over the post? I was correlating you with an (R) because of their propensity to forget that everything they say is being recorded and can be brought up on a whim.  You denied saying something you very clearly said (and were quoted as saying).  So while I have no doubt that you are indeed not a politician, I can suggest that you might actually have a shot in the (R) camp...

As for convincing you of something...  Uh, I'm pretty sure I haven't been trying to.  Like I said, I'm not talking *to* you, I'm talking *at* you.  You are a proxy - a cipher - not an actual part of this conversation.  You have yet to make any attempt at rational discourse, so that's all you can be.


menschenfresser: CleanAndPure: Kuroshin: kerrigand: I forgot, Christians were born Christian and gays were born gay. Doesn't seems like a choice to me. But, yet you want to keep trying to tell me that it is.


Nobody in the history of ever has been born Christian.  Never.  Not even Jesus.  Religion isn't decided by birth.  All religion is optional - sexual orientation isn't.

I figured that someone who goes around accusing others of being stupid idiots would already know this.

Religion may be a choice but children of Christians tend to be Christians... you don't find rednecks of the Graham clan growing up to be muslims.

As for sexual preference... I suspect it is partially nature and partially nurture... probably more genetics with some than others. (Being abused as a child physically or emotionally is also linked to higher rates of homosexuality... hinting that at least for some- the su ...


That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?
 
2013-11-05 05:00:17 PM

menschenfresser: Oldiron_79: Oldiron has 6 farks to give today. After hearing about barilla and some butthurt queens Oldiron still has half a dozen farks. How many farks did Oldiron give?

Some of us really are"butthurt queens" but not in the sense you (probably) meant that!


Boil your pasta thoroughly.
 
2013-11-05 05:01:06 PM

Hebalo: So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.


From an objective standpoint, the CEO's statements were implicitly anti-gay.  Explicitly they were simply exclusionary, but the implication could be inferred that since gays are not 'traditional', they are bad.  I'm not going to go that far, if for no other reason than the dude is Italian, and the way they speak is VERY different from how we do here in the US.  I honestly believe that he himself is not anti-gay.  Bigoted toward gays?  Absolutely.  My grandmother wasn't racist, but she definitely had an attitude toward blacks due to her upbringing.  It wasn't malicious, but it certainly wasn't a good thing.

I guess the term I'd hesitantly reach for would be "Privileged."  You know: "I don't hate them, but I wish they'd mind their own business and not make themselves too visible in my world."  It's not an exact fit, but it's close enough to get the gist, I think.

He's "Privileged" in his bias.
 
2013-11-05 05:03:48 PM

kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?



Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 05:05:48 PM

kerrigand: See that's not what I ever did. You did that. You chose to believe me a bigot and that's your choice although that's not what was ever stated. You wanted to believe that of me and in your mind, that's what you got. You go ahead and go back to your logs of the conversation and see. What I said and what you wanted to hear are two different things. You just wanted to be pissed off at someone and I was the closest person that fit your bill. I plainly stated, that forcing views does not persuade people. It actually dissuades them. If you took it as offensive then that's on you and you alone.

Here's your help since you're too stupid to understand.
1. Christian right, attempts to force their beliefs upon us. What do you do...rebel against it. Nothing wrong with that.
2. Gay right, attempts to force their beliefs up us. What do you do. hmmm.....interesting. the same thing happens, yet we're all bigots.
See an issue with this? No? Well if you don't, then the two of you are the same. No different and if you think you are, you might want to go back to the drawing board with this.


Those are your words. If you cannot see they are worlds apart you are either a liar, a fool, or a bigot.
Gays have not tried to force their beliefs on anyone, they just want to stop being slighted and treated less than others for who they are.
 
2013-11-05 05:06:57 PM

Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.


Dude's just got to be trolling there.

Because resisting exclusion from rights is totally "forcing yourself on everyone and everything." Mmmmhmmm. Why won't they just accept they can't have the same rights and quit forcing themselves on us?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 05:08:02 PM

kerrigand: Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing


OMG, you actually do believe your own tripe!
You are a completely mad-as-a-hatter bigot, even if you cannot see it in yourself.
 
2013-11-05 05:11:24 PM

gja: kerrigand: Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing

OMG, you actually do believe your own tripe!
You are a completely mad-as-a-hatter bigot, even if you cannot see it in yourself.


He's got to be trolling. It's everything but the "Homosexuality is a learned behaviour" troll language. If he's serious then heaven help him cos he's beyond human help.
 
2013-11-05 05:11:35 PM

menschenfresser: Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.

Dude's just got to be trolling there.

Because resisting exclusion from rights is totally "forcing yourself on everyone and everything." Mmmmhmmm. Why won't they just accept they can't have the same rights and quit forcing themselves on us?



I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 05:12:06 PM

Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.


Don't hold your breath.....
gvshp.org
 
2013-11-05 05:13:41 PM
Hebalo:

So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.

When oppression is the reality, any voice that chooses to merely accept the status-quo is a voice that chooses oppression. We're all part of the fight for equal human rights, regardless of if we want to be or not. Accepting oppression is endorsement.
 
2013-11-05 05:14:05 PM

Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.


I'm sorry that that is the only thing you can derive from that statement. You really are a bigot of bigots. I commend you.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 05:14:23 PM

Kuroshin: menschenfresser: Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.

Dude's just got to be trolling there.

Because resisting exclusion from rights is totally "forcing yourself on everyone and everything." Mmmmhmmm. Why won't they just accept they can't have the same rights and quit forcing themselves on us?


I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.


C'mon man! I did 5 servers, a DAG, 2 RPC arrays an F5 config and 20 or so shares while doing this.
Boogie with a suitcase, bro.
 
2013-11-05 05:17:14 PM

gja: Kuroshin: I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.

C'mon man! I did 5 servers, a DAG, 2 RPC arrays an F5 config and 20 or so shares while doing this.
Boogie with a suitcase, bro.


It's End of Month and I've got loads of numbers to crunch.  Just not feeling it this month.  Frankly, trying to articulate all of this has been great mental exercise.

And I saw his response.  Definitely trolling.
 
2013-11-05 05:18:46 PM

kerrigand: Kuroshin: kerrigand: That should've been the end of it, but it wasn't was it? Yes, gays are trying to force themselves onto and into everything and they get offended it when it doesn't jive with what they want it to. That does sound familiar, correct? So at this point in time, what differentiates gays from Christians? Nothing, most people that I know of don't even think about the differences. So, who is trying to convince who? All people get to have their own rights and think what they want to. Just because they don't agree with mine or yours, does that make them bigots, or does it make us?


Bolded part is complete lunacy.  I'm talking moonbat-levels of crazy.  I'm going to need some serious citations on that before I continue with this conversation.

I'm sorry that that is the only thing you can derive from that statement. You really are a bigot of bigots. I commend you.


Calling out injustice on the part of the people committing the injustice is "bigotry"! I love it when these folks turn it around and say they're  the victims of bigotry because other people are trying to take away their right to discriminate. Hilarious! Pity the poor slavemaster being discriminated against when the Yankees took his human property away. His rights were violated!
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-11-05 05:21:07 PM

Kuroshin: gja: Kuroshin: I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.

C'mon man! I did 5 servers, a DAG, 2 RPC arrays an F5 config and 20 or so shares while doing this.
Boogie with a suitcase, bro.

It's End of Month and I've got loads of numbers to crunch.  Just not feeling it this month.  Frankly, trying to articulate all of this has been great mental exercise.

And I saw his response.  Definitely trolling.


Dude, sorry about the closing. That sucks. I hate finance for that very reason. All my friends that do the numbers game all have the same cyclical unavailability in their lives. I feel ya....

This guy is headed home. Methinks I hear a Bubbaburger calling my name. I must answer.
 
2013-11-05 05:21:20 PM

Kope: Hebalo:

So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.

When oppression is the reality, any voice that chooses to merely accept the status-quo is a voice that chooses oppression. We're all part of the fight for equal human rights, regardless of if we want to be or not. Accepting oppression is endorsement.


I don't agree. There's a middle ground for those who have no interest. I can be neither anti-gay nor pro-gay. It's unrealistic to be drawn in to every fight for every group and every social issue. I'll accept that the CEO here wasn't being welcoming or willing to change his world view to appease the gay rights movement, but I don't see that as being anti-gay.

Was every person who didn't march for the civil rights movement in the 60's anti-equal rights? Certainly not.
 
2013-11-05 05:21:52 PM
data2.whicdn.com
 
2013-11-05 05:22:45 PM

Kuroshin: gja: Kuroshin: I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.

C'mon man! I did 5 servers, a DAG, 2 RPC arrays an F5 config and 20 or so shares while doing this.
Boogie with a suitcase, bro.

It's End of Month and I've got loads of numbers to crunch.  Just not feeling it this month.  Frankly, trying to articulate all of this has been great mental exercise.

And I saw his response.  Definitely trolling.


poor kiddies, it's too bad you can't see the truth. I know, you want to see the bad in all people. I hope that the 3 of you learn later on in life. Maybe you'll look back and see reality different. I doubt it.
 
2013-11-05 05:25:17 PM

kerrigand: Kuroshin: gja: Kuroshin: I'm certain he's been trolling the entire time, but Poe's Law being what it is, and the fact that there *are* people out there who legitimately believe the kind of stuff he's been spewing, means I want to actually face him directly.  I'm running out of steam though, since I've still got work on my desk I've been neglecting.

C'mon man! I did 5 servers, a DAG, 2 RPC arrays an F5 config and 20 or so shares while doing this.
Boogie with a suitcase, bro.

It's End of Month and I've got loads of numbers to crunch.  Just not feeling it this month.  Frankly, trying to articulate all of this has been great mental exercise.

And I saw his response.  Definitely trolling.

poor kiddies, it's too bad you can't see the truth. I know, you want to see the bad in all people. I hope that the 3 of you learn later on in life. Maybe you'll look back and see reality different. I doubt it.


You did a good trolling job, IMO; well done. Much more original than "letrole" usually does. You got several bites, too. Thank you for the entertainment; it was kinda fun.
 
2013-11-05 05:26:07 PM
Just get Judy Garland to sell your pasta. Problem solved.
 
2013-11-05 05:26:56 PM

frepnog: OMGWHOTHEHELLCARES.jpg

seriously.  who gives a shiat who an Italian pasta maker directs its ads to?  Is that 1-5 percent of the world's population seriously worth catering to?

Barilla's profits soared to $81 million in 2012.

I think they'll be fine.

I have no problem with gay people....  but seriously.  We don't all have to bend over backwards for you.



Sure, it's great to be you. I bet you're in some sort of demographic sweet-spot where you don't have people judging your very existence. Meanwhile those of us who are gay or whatever get really tired of being told we're evil, servants of various demonic entities, child molesters, etc etc etc.

It's particularly bad when you're a kid because up until very recently you'd never hear a positive thing about yourself, you had nobody to go to and you ran a 50/50 chance of being disowned by friends and family just for being you.

Nobody is asking you to farking bend over, we're asking to enjoy the same sort of blameless comfort zone that allows you to reduce the rest of us to a percentile. We just want to be completely unremarkable like your clueless self.

/you're so dumb you made me log on after a year's absence
/fark you!
 
2013-11-05 05:33:16 PM

Hebalo: Kope: Hebalo:

So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.

When oppression is the reality, any voice that chooses to merely accept the status-quo is a voice that chooses oppression. We're all part of the fight for equal human rights, regardless of if we want to be or not. Accepting oppression is endorsement.

I don't agree. There's a middle ground for those who have no interest. I can be neither anti-gay nor pro-gay. It's unrealistic to be drawn in to every fight for every group and every social issue. I'll accept that the CEO here wasn't being welcoming or willing to change his world view to appease the gay rights movement, but I don't see that as being anti-gay.

Was every person who didn't march for the civil rights movement in the 60's anti-equal rights? Certainly not.



Valid point.  Unconcerned parties really are a blank.  They have no motivations either way.  However, I wouldn't say that the CEO falls into that group (nor would I lump him in with homophobes, either).  These things are no more trinary than they are binary.  There's nuance to everything.  For the CEO, I'm actually willing to give him a lot of leeway, as I'm familiar with how Italians talk.  I do imagine his statements were innocently given, without thought to bigotry.  That does not change the words or their meaning though.  I think (my own opinion here) that he is utterly blind to the issue of gay rights, and was caught off-guard by the suggestion.  He's a wealthy Italian, and probably at least a "good" Catholic, so these things aren't what he worries about in life.  Gay families aren't part of his world - they are off on their own.  He wants to advertise his own lifestyle to the world as the ideal, and sell his product to those also living that lifestyle.  Like I said before, "privilege."  He's above the controversy...until he opens his mouth and sticks his foot right in there.

White privilege doesn't mean white people are anti-black, and straight privilege doesn't mean straights are anti-gay.  They're just "above" it all.
 
2013-11-05 05:40:00 PM

Hebalo: Kope: Hebalo:

So the thread calls them "anti-gay". Do you agree with that, or it is more to correct to say they aren't "pro-gay". The assumption seems to be if one isn't advocating gay rights, they're anti-gay. Doesn't sounds right to me.

When oppression is the reality, any voice that chooses to merely accept the status-quo is a voice that chooses oppression. We're all part of the fight for equal human rights, regardless of if we want to be or not. Accepting oppression is endorsement.

I don't agree. There's a middle ground for those who have no interest. I can be neither anti-gay nor pro-gay. It's unrealistic to be drawn in to every fight for every group and every social issue. I'll accept that the CEO here wasn't being welcoming or willing to change his world view to appease the gay rights movement, but I don't see that as being anti-gay.

Was every person who didn't march for the civil rights movement in the 60's anti-equal rights? Certainly not.


So you're not putting on the white sheet or lighting up the cross, but you just quietly wish those uppity coloreds would quit making so much fuss about wanting to eat at the same lunch counter?
 
2013-11-05 05:41:24 PM

menschenfresser: It's hate because they're actively campaigning to deprive people of rights


Uh...what rights are being deprived of gays by Barilla?  seriously?   Gays can still buy Barilla pasta.   Hell, even if Barilla refused to sell their pasta to gays then the only right being violated is 'the right to buy Barilla pasta'.  That's hardly something that would be addressed by a Human Rights commission.

While I don't agree with Barillas position, this is just an issue of branding.  They see 'traditional' families as their demographic and spend their advertising dollars accordingly.   If gay people, and supporters thereof, disagree with Barillas policy then simply demonstrate it by buying their competitors products.

Had the CEO not made that dumb ass statement no-one would be any wiser about Barilla's policy and would happily gone on buying their product.   One statement from a dumb fark hardly demonstrates a deprivation of rights therefore.

There are *real* issues for gay people, muslim people, black people et al. to deal with.   To equate *this* with them is just farking ridiculous and dilutes any sympathy people might have for those affected.
 
2013-11-05 05:45:44 PM

VladTheEmailer: menschenfresser: It's hate because they're actively campaigning to deprive people of rights

Uh...what rights are being deprived of gays by Barilla?  seriously?   Gays can still buy Barilla pasta.   Hell, even if Barilla refused to sell their pasta to gays then the only right being violated is 'the right to buy Barilla pasta'.  That's hardly something that would be addressed by a Human Rights commission.

While I don't agree with Barillas position, this is just an issue of branding.  They see 'traditional' families as their demographic and spend their advertising dollars accordingly.   If gay people, and supporters thereof, disagree with Barillas policy then simply demonstrate it by buying their competitors products.

Had the CEO not made that dumb ass statement no-one would be any wiser about Barilla's policy and would happily gone on buying their product.   One statement from a dumb fark hardly demonstrates a deprivation of rights therefore.

There are *real* issues for gay people, muslim people, black people et al. to deal with.   To equate *this* with them is just farking ridiculous and dilutes any sympathy people might have for those affected.


When I wrote that, we'd moved on from discussing Barilla specifically and onto rights in general - at least in my mind we had. I agree that this argument doesn't apply in the specific Barilla case, or even in the infamous Chik-Fil-A case. It was meant to reference the broader issue of rights for groups in general.
 
2013-11-05 05:48:20 PM

DarkVader: So you're not putting on the white sheet or lighting up the cross, but you just quietly wish those uppity coloreds would quit making so much fuss about wanting to eat at the same lunch counter?


I honestly believe that there is a large segment of the population that just don't give a shiat either way, and that they are a larger totality than either of the two sides fighting.  That's why the voter turnouts barely crack 50% when it comes to social justice issues.  They just want to live their lives and be left alone.

And while I find it sad, I can't blame them.
 
2013-11-05 05:48:34 PM

VladTheEmailer: menschenfresser: It's hate because they're actively campaigning to deprive people of rights

Uh...what rights are being deprived of gays by Barilla?  seriously?   Gays can still buy Barilla pasta.   Hell, even if Barilla refused to sell their pasta to gays then the only right being violated is 'the right to buy Barilla pasta'.  That's hardly something that would be addressed by a Human Rights commission.

While I don't agree with Barillas position, this is just an issue of branding.  They see 'traditional' families as their demographic and spend their advertising dollars accordingly.   If gay people, and supporters thereof, disagree with Barillas policy then simply demonstrate it by buying their competitors products.

Had the CEO not made that dumb ass statement no-one would be any wiser about Barilla's policy and would happily gone on buying their product.   One statement from a dumb fark hardly demonstrates a deprivation of rights therefore.

There are *real* issues for gay people, muslim people, black people et al. to deal with.   To equate *this* with them is just farking ridiculous and dilutes any sympathy people might have for those affected.


On second thought, maybe it does apply in the Chik-Fil-A case. I had gay marriage rights in general, and the opponents of it specifically, in mind when I wrote that and I believe that's the issue in question with Chik-Fil-A.
 
2013-11-05 05:54:07 PM
So how do I get straight pasta now?  I assume that Chik Fil-A serves only straight chicken, whereas other establishments may serve chickens of dubious moral standards.  But where's my straight pasta?  Barilla used to be my choice, but now they're caving to pressure.  DEFEND TRADITIONAL PASTA!!!
 
2013-11-05 06:05:08 PM
Hebalo:

Was every person who didn't march for the civil rights movement in the 60's anti-equal rights? Certainly not.

Every person who did not raise their voice in protest complicity endorsed the status quo, so yes, they were anti-equal rights.

Human rights are never simply there, they are fought for every day. And those who stand idle and accepting in the face of oppression are just as morally guilty as the oppressors themselves.
 
2013-11-05 06:05:24 PM
CEOs should be seen and not heard. And preferably not seen either.
 
2013-11-05 06:14:30 PM

frepnog: pgh9fan: What he said was completely ignorant.

why is it ignorant to say you support traditional families and won't use gay couples in advertising?

"The pasta maker fought boycott calls after chief executive Guido Barilla gave an interview in September in which he said that "the concept of a canonical family remains one of the fundamental values of the business."
Asked if he would include a gay couple in one of his television commercials, he said: "We would not do it because ours is a traditional family".
"If (gay people) like our pasta, they can eat it. If they do not like it, if they do not like what we say, they can eat a different one," he added"

That is not ignorance.  That is refusing to cater to a minor demographic.


Well, sure - but their marketing choice isn't between heteros and homos - it's between homophobes and homos. Gays are a wealthy, educated, desirable demo, and they can cater to them without offending their hetero customers, except for the homophobes - who are a small, uneducated, poor demographic they don't want anyway.
In fact, nobody wants them, which is why companies with good marketing departments direct their public spokespeople to stay away from homophobic talk.
You don't stay in business by pissing off Liberace to please Cletus.
 
2013-11-05 06:15:19 PM

urbangirl: apoptotic: silvervial: apoptotic: The two Barilla ads I've been seeing a lot of lately (they're spamming Hulu) both feature women shopping alone and being spirited out of the frozen foods aisle and taken home by some Italian guy in a convertible, where a chef proceeds to teach them how to heat up Barilla frozen dinners.

They're f*cking creepy.

I think those ads are for Bertoli, but I could be wrong.

As for Barilla, I wrote and told them that they had not only offended gay people, but all the straight people, like myself, a woman who makes the shopping decisions in my traditional family, who support gay people were also offended.

Tiny demographic, my ass!

Ah yes, you're right. That I automatically associated creepy with Barilla probably doesn't bode well though.

*makes mental note that Barilla is homophobic, Bertolli is creepy*

One B-something-something-double L-vowel pasta is pretty much the same as the next.


No they are not the same!  I have tried all different brands of pasta and Barilla tastes the best.  Don't give a fark what the CEO said I am going to buy/eat what I want.  For the record we eat a lot of pasta with just garlic, cheese and oil on it so the actual taste of the noodle is important

The CEO is probably some old fashioned, old world man who clings to the notion that because he has a penis he is always right.

what you thought about something that was said by another person does not matter when it comes time to be judged at the pearly gates...it is how YOU the gay people that are in your life.
 
2013-11-05 06:15:53 PM

Kuroshin: DarkVader: So you're not putting on the white sheet or lighting up the cross, but you just quietly wish those uppity coloreds would quit making so much fuss about wanting to eat at the same lunch counter?

I honestly believe that there is a large segment of the population that just don't give a shiat either way, and that they are a larger totality than either of the two sides fighting.  That's why the voter turnouts barely crack 50% when it comes to social justice issues.  They just want to live their lives and be left alone.

And while I find it sad, I can't blame them.


I really have a hard time not blaming them.

I'm not gay, I'm not married, and I have no intention of getting married to anyone of either gender.  This issue doesn't directly affect me at all.  But it IS a tremendously important issue for those being deprived of their rights.  And I have a hard time understanding how someone would be able to sit back and say it doesn't matter.
 
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