If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Atlantic)   A look at the increasing popularity in CPR shows the overall issue of "medical creep," which also explains the whole rise in chiropractic "care"   (theatlantic.com) divider line 17
    More: Interesting, CPR, defibrillators, elective surgery, Stephen Jay Gould, surgical team, mesothelioma, permanent brain  
•       •       •

5283 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Nov 2013 at 12:13 PM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2013-11-05 12:23:45 PM
3 votes:
My life was saved from misery by a chiropractor. Saying all chiropractors are ineffective is akin to saying all MDs are pill pushers.

Some DCs get better results than others due to skill, technique, and proper evaluation of issues.

Educate yourself on what a chiropractor does (and doesn't) do rather than blather on with an opinion you heard from some guy that had never actually been to one.
2013-11-05 01:06:39 PM
2 votes:

kendelrio: Mose: Russ1642: kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.

I'll help your back feel better by applying high risk violent rotations to your neck.

Full disclosure, my wife is a DPT- the biggest problem is not what they're doing is unsafe, it's just that a lot of it is not effective long term.  That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

Chiropractors just like the business model of come see me once a month for the rest of your life, we have your card on file as far as I can see.

Sort of like getting you oil changed in your car?

/Maintenance, how do it work?


No.  Not at all like getting the oil changed in your car, actually.  A better analogy is this: you have an oil seal leak somewhere and you're burning oil.  You can go to the mechanic once a month who adds a quart of oil with each visit and charges an hour of labor, or you can go to the mechanic that replaces the faulty gasket.  Chiropractic vs. PT.
2013-11-05 12:19:08 PM
2 votes:
Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.
2013-11-06 12:09:50 AM
1 votes:

guttermedic: I've done CPR countless times, on patients ranging from a few months old to 90+ years old.  Younger people DO seem to have a better viability rate (i.e. - leaving the hospital under their own power, no ill side effects).  Unfortunately, because everybody expects CPR to be done, it gets done.  The article touched upon this - just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.  There have been a LOT more people who left the hospital with varying degrees of brain damage, the majority of those being pretty much catatonic for the remainder of their lives.
To quote Pet Sematary, Sometimes, dead is better.


Yeah, and as I said above, who are we to make that decision? There are people who would prefer brain damage to death and vice versa. There are people with what I consider to be a lousy quality of life living in nursing homes (so getting a DNR order is hassle-free) that are full codes, while extremely vibrant people choose DNR. Failing clear and legal documentation stating the patient's wishes, I don't know how a medical provider can ethically operate in any way but under the assumption that the patient wants to be alive.

No one should get to decide whether somebody else's life is worth living.
2013-11-05 04:51:45 PM
1 votes:

Mose: kendelrio: Mose: Russ1642: kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.

I'll help your back feel better by applying high risk violent rotations to your neck.

Full disclosure, my wife is a DPT- the biggest problem is not what they're doing is unsafe, it's just that a lot of it is not effective long term.  That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

Chiropractors just like the business model of come see me once a month for the rest of your life, we have your card on file as far as I can see.

Sort of like getting you oil changed in your car?

/Maintenance, how do it work?

No.  Not at all like getting the oil changed in your car, actually.  A better analogy is this: you have an oil seal leak somewhere and you're burning oil.  You can go to the mechanic once a month who adds a quart of oil with each visit and charges an hour of labor, or you can go to the mechanic that replaces the faulty gasket.  Chiropractic vs. PT.


Much better analogy.
2013-11-05 04:23:58 PM
1 votes:
One thing I will give chiros credit for: they have the highest rate of patient satisfaction in all of medicine (or pseudomedicine, depending on your thoughts.) Just the mere act of placing hands on patients can "cure" disease. That being said, it's very very clear that their philosophy (linked above) has no basis in science/Western medicine. Doesn't mean it doesn't "work." The mind is a very powerful thing, and the placebo effect is very real.
2013-11-05 02:51:41 PM
1 votes:

Mose: Russ1642: kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.

I'll help your back feel better by applying high risk violent rotations to your neck.

Full disclosure, my wife is a DPT- the biggest problem is not what they're doing is unsafe, it's just that a lot of it is not effective long term.  That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

Chiropractors just like the business model of come see me once a month for the rest of your life, we have your card on file as far as I can see.


Most of those I know who go to chiropractors don't go because they believe in some magic.  The chiropractor charges $30 a visit, and they feel better for a little while after.  The physical therapy often says they'll still need to go forever, or that they do not know if they can help, costs several hundred or more a visit and often doesn't fall under their insurance, and makes them tired and sore afterwards.  I think at that point they are just desperate due to chronic pain and will gladly pay forever for that little relief.

I'd rather see a real fix for them, but sometimes it just doesn't seem practical.  I can empathize with the making do... a lot of people will rely on questionable remedies if nothing better is available.
2013-11-05 02:50:32 PM
1 votes:

SenoreVurm: VBA stroke is a very rare event in the population. The increased risks of VBA stroke associated with chiropractic and PCP visits is likely due to patients with headache and neck pain from VBA dissection seeking care before their stroke. We found no evidence of excess risk of VBA stroke associated chiropractic care compared to primary care. (Spine. 2008 Feb 15;33(4 Suppl):S176-83)


blogs.name.com 

Doctors Mark Crislip and Harriet Hall tore this paper apart after it was published in 2008.
2013-11-05 02:21:50 PM
1 votes:
Anecdotal only, but I've had a fairly high success rate with CPR, I'd say somewhere around 60%. This probably can be attributed to the fact that our average time from 911 call to ambulance on-scene is below four minutes and a transport time to the ER of under four minutes. However, I'm counting "success" as anyone who was in arrest on scene and either had a beating heart on arrival at the hospital or was resuscitated at the hospital. If you consider 7-day survival, my number goes down significantly.

The real consideration comes from what an individual wants, his views on life, quality of life, and death. I'm not in a position to decide whether someone deserves a low-percentage shot to live versus certain death, or to evaluate quality of life implications. Me? I'm having DNR tattooed across my chest when I turn 50. The 55 year old quadrapelegic living in the nursing home? She wanted to live. And she made it, and a year later is still alive as far as I know. The old man who we brought back, but never regained consciousness and died two days later? His family genuinely appreciated that they had time to get everyone together and say goodbye; their last memory of him was laying peacefully in a hospital bed instead of on the bathroom floor of his business with his pants around his ankles. On the other hand, watching CPR done on a family member is traumatic and I've had family members object to it, though I have a legal and professional obligation to do it if no DNR paperwork is present.

The default, with no other information available, must be to try to preserve life. Planning ahead is the only way to be certain that your wishes are adhered to.
2013-11-05 01:50:36 PM
1 votes:

kermit_the_frog: miss diminutive: Prophet of Loss: Done correctly, CPR can easily break someone's sternum. Not an activity to screw around with unless its life or death. Done incorrectly, it can actually do more harm than good.

When I took first aid last year they kept telling me that I wasn't pushing down hard enough. I'm not exactly brimming with upper body strength but I found that comment a little odd given how dangerous I heard it could be.

I guess if you're forced to use CPR the person is already in dire straights anyway, so a broken sternum is a least of their worries.

Yep. (trained medic)

If you have to perform CPR, they have no pulse -- the odds they are walking out of the hospital are somewhere around 1% to 1.5%. If you perform CPR perfectly, those odds can double -- to 2 or 3%. So from really shiatty to just plain old shiatty.

(This is assuming that they're not already in a well staffed ER, in which case the odds might be a little bit better, but not all that much.)

/Had to perform CPR a number of times.
//None of them walked out of the hospital.
///Nobody I know has performed CPR and had the person get out alive.

(Sometimes you get vitals back, but the person still does not live to see the outside of a hospital -- there was a reason the heart stopped working, and CPR does nothing to fix that.)


I work in a hospital and end up doing compressions once every 4 or 6 weeks.  I've had plenty of people survive... but it is a highly controlled situation (hospital ER or ICU), and surviving sometimes isn't a good thing depending on how long they've been down and the amount of damage to their brain from lack of oxygen.

You get some situations where the factor causing their heart to stop is temporary (like an O.D.) and can be negated/controlled by drugs until it passes.  A lot of others are just not savable.  I don't know the percentage of survivors off the top of my head, but I'd guess 10 or maybe 20%, with half of those having major brain damage.
2013-11-05 01:36:20 PM
1 votes:

kermit_the_frog: If you have to perform CPR, they have no pulse -- the odds they are walking out of the hospital are somewhere around 1% to 1.5%. If you perform CPR perfectly, those odds can double -- to 2 or 3%. So from really shiatty to just plain old shiatty.


The Memphis area ROSC rate is 18 to 24%, depending on what department in the county you use. Seattle and Wake County have a 52% ROSC rate for primarily cardiac-causes for arrest, and lead the nation.

Anecdotally, a lot of that is being seen by using mechanical CPR assists, such as the LUCAS 2 and the Zoll Autopulse.

Of those, the odds of walking out of a hospital with a CPC score bellow 2 is about half the ROSC rate.
2013-11-05 01:22:54 PM
1 votes:

kendelrio: Mose: Russ1642: kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.

I'll help your back feel better by applying high risk violent rotations to your neck.

Full disclosure, my wife is a DPT- the biggest problem is not what they're doing is unsafe, it's just that a lot of it is not effective long term.  That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

Chiropractors just like the business model of come see me once a month for the rest of your life, we have your card on file as far as I can see.

Sort of like getting you oil changed in your car?

/Maintenance, how do it work?


Chiropractors sell what doctors can't - the ability to always have something they can "do". Nobody wants to be told by a doctor that it will get better on its own, or in the case of sore backs that the best cure is losing weight, exercise and other hard lifestyle choices; they want a magic feather that fixes it.

Sore lower backs are "cured" by six weeks of manipulations and taking care of it, or six weeks of taking take of it. One of them makes the patient feel better, and the practitioner richer.

Nobody wants to be told "there's nothing wrong with you" or "there's nothing we can do besides wait", and all the quack treatment, chiropractors included, home in on those problems for a reason.
2013-11-05 01:11:58 PM
1 votes:

IamAwake: Mose: That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

and why on earth can't there be a bit of both?  I'd walk away from any chiro who said I needed to go to them long-term/permanently anyway; help get me back to the right place, then I'll just do physical activity (yoga is teh bomb for spine alignment...and lots of nice views, too) to take it from there.


You're free to go to whomever you like, but PT is the evidence based practice.  If I have a problem that I want to get better, I'd rather go to someone practicing evidence based medicine, that's just personal preference though.  Comes with being rational, i guess.

I hear the L. Ron Hubbard people are always willing to take your money too, though.
2013-11-05 01:01:39 PM
1 votes:

InfamousG: My life was saved from misery by a chiropractor. Saying all chiropractors are ineffective is akin to saying all MDs are pill pushers.

Some DCs get better results than others due to skill, technique, and proper evaluation of issues.

Educate yourself on what a chiropractor does (and doesn't) do rather than blather on with an opinion you heard from some guy that had never actually been to one.


Thank you. I was forming my view of chiropractors based off of scientific studies that proved how ineffective they were, but with your anecdotal evidence, I may have to reformulate my opinion.
2013-11-05 12:43:21 PM
1 votes:
"You've got diphtheria?, I'm gonna crack yer bones!"

i763.photobucket.com
2013-11-05 12:33:50 PM
1 votes:

kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.


In other words, a physical therapist wearing a lab coat, with a glorified title, wrapped in a mantle of pseudoscientific bullshiat about energy flows of a mystical vitalistic force that cannot be measured.

Oh, sign me up!
2013-11-05 12:32:49 PM
1 votes:

Russ1642: kittyhas1000legs: Some chiropractors are alright. They just need to be the "I'll help your back feel better" kind, instead of the "this will cure your allergies, asthma, arthritis, and diabeetus" kind.

I'll help your back feel better by applying high risk violent rotations to your neck.


Full disclosure, my wife is a DPT- the biggest problem is not what they're doing is unsafe, it's just that a lot of it is not effective long term.  That's why you often hear people saying how they have to visit their chiropractor every so often, when they have the option to go see chiropractic's science/reality based older sibling, physical therapy, and address the cause of the pain/problem rather than just the symptoms.

Chiropractors just like the business model of come see me once a month for the rest of your life, we have your card on file as far as I can see.
 
Displayed 17 of 17 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report