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(Tom's Guide)   Developers of infamous Ransomware "Cryptolocker", unable to accept that people would rather reformat their computers than pay out, update the virus to provide a second chance offer   (tomsguide.com) divider line 91
    More: Dumbass, Brian Krebs, local television, RSA, Windows PCs, Dropbox, Creative Suite, anti-virus  
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5602 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Nov 2013 at 10:51 AM (35 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



91 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-11-05 09:36:19 AM
$300, 300 euros or 2 Bitcoins

Are Bitcoins really worth $150 or more a piece?
 
2013-11-05 09:39:13 AM
Pro tip: Always back up your important stuff. And stop going to weird porn sites.
 
2013-11-05 09:57:12 AM

Rev. Skarekroe: $300, 300 euros or 2 Bitcoins

Are Bitcoins really worth $150 or more a piece?


$230.58, apparently.  Paying in USD is your best bet.
/ Yes, I do wish I had bought some bitcoins when they were worth about 25 cents.
 
2013-11-05 10:02:34 AM
Because many victims preferred to lose their files rather than hand over credit-card information, the criminals added a Bitcoin option so that users could at least keep their financial information private.

I really hope the real reason here was that people were smart enough to have backups, but I know that's doubtful.
I wonder how much money these guys have actually made.
 
2013-11-05 10:59:57 AM
So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?
 
2013-11-05 11:02:09 AM
serial_crusher: people were smart enough to have backups, but I know that's doubtful.

Offline backups (since it goes after mounted drives as well, having a backup connected to the machine makes it vulnerable)

So yeah, very doubtful.

// most people just don't give that much of a damn about their data.
 
2013-11-05 11:08:20 AM
I've tried to get that off of someone's hard drive by reformatting. I assumed even that didn't work because after a clean format on the laptop I was working on, Cryptolocker just reappeared.
 
2013-11-05 11:10:19 AM

lordargent: serial_crusher: people were smart enough to have backups, but I know that's doubtful.

Offline backups (since it goes after mounted drives as well, having a backup connected to the machine makes it vulnerable)

So yeah, very doubtful.

// most people just don't give that much of a damn about their data.


Right, yeah. I'm in that fuzzy-logic range where the stuff I don't want to lose, I have up hosted in a server somewhere on the internet. The reasoning is that my rig could die on me, and I couldn't trust myself to keep offline backups in a decent place.

So I think to myself "So, some random server out there that could vanish at any moment is preferable to being more responsible with your important data"

"Well, maybe it just turns out it's not so important that I change myself over it."
 
2013-11-05 11:11:37 AM
We had that go around the office here for some of the sales department and one or two didn't have their antivirus running for some reason. Removed the malware, restore files from protected backup. Smack around the back of the head to keep their protection running. Problem solved.

abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?


Apparently so, but then again they still have the virus on their system and it not long before the cycle repeats.

/Seal Team 6 solution advised.
 
2013-11-05 11:12:39 AM
these days a re-install of win 7 or 8 takes about 20 minutes and doesn't even destroy your data (and is very easy to do)- and that assumes the data is on the same disk as the OS. with the space requirements of things like HD movies, music collectons and photos- combined with the ever plummeting price of storage- even casual users tend to have external drives/secondary internal drives. reinstall the primary drive is pretty trivial. Worst case, as long as you have your documents, quicken and tax returns backed up (which you can do easily on a 5 dollar thumb drive) what else do you need that would be worth 300 bucks vs. re-downloading it?
 
2013-11-05 11:15:13 AM
Is it difficult to find these people? Are they hiding behind a number of proxies?

If it is possible to send them money, shouldn't it be possible to send them a drone?
 
2013-11-05 11:17:37 AM

lordargent: serial_crusher: people were smart enough to have backups, but I know that's doubtful.

Offline backups (since it goes after mounted drives as well, having a backup connected to the machine makes it vulnerable)

So yeah, very doubtful.

// most people just don't give that much of a damn about their data.


Yeah, I mean there is a few game saves that might be annoying to lose, and I would have to reconstruct my address/phone numbers/birthday list, apart from that it would just be a hassle reinstalling, loss of data is not really important for me anyway.
 
2013-11-05 11:19:06 AM

limeyfellow: We had that go around the office here for some of the sales department and one or two didn't have their antivirus running for some reason. Removed the malware, restore files from protected backup. Smack around the back of the head to keep their protection running. Problem solved.

abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

Apparently so, but then again they still have the virus on their system and it not long before the cycle repeats.

/Seal Team 6 solution advised.


I did hear tales of law enforcement seizing and shutting down servers owned by the bad guys, making a number of private keys inaccessible in the process.  I don't know if that was speculation or actual fact though.
 
2013-11-05 11:21:55 AM

abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?


What do you think?
 
2013-11-05 11:28:09 AM

mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?


Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?
 
2013-11-05 11:32:56 AM

bdub77: Pro tip: Always back up your important stuff. And stop going to weird porn sites.


Define 'weird'.
 
2013-11-05 11:37:30 AM
How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?
 
2013-11-05 11:38:09 AM
Don't open dodgy email attachments. That would take care of most of this crap.
 
2013-11-05 11:40:04 AM

ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?


Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.
 
2013-11-05 11:42:16 AM

serial_crusher: $230.58, apparently. Paying in USD is your best bet.
/ Yes, I do wish I had bought some bitcoins when they were worth about 25 cents.


The problem with buttcoin is that if you had 5000 you wanted to cash out today to buy, say, a house or a car, there is nobody on earth who has the desire to buy 5000 bitcoins and also the finances to afford them.

Getting buttcoin to USD pretty much involves going to "bank of the shady dude in the van down by the old drainage culvert south of town."

Or you get someone to mail you a pre-paid VISA card

Or you try and get it out of Magic: The Gathering Online, Exchange.   But they currently allow only limited withdrawls and have a lagtime of days or weeks.
 
2013-11-05 11:44:04 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: bdub77: Pro tip: Always back up your important stuff. And stop going to weird porn sites.

Define 'weird'.


Free Lyrics websites are the most common malware infection vectors these days actually.

/children will click on anything, and they love looking up song lyrics.
//Adults aren't any different.
///Perverts realize they are doing something risky and take protections.
 
2013-11-05 11:45:29 AM
FTFA:Like other forms of ransomware...

WTF?  This is a thing now?  And people aren't locked away in jail?!

Computer tech law needs a serious overall, especially the part about EULAs.
 
2013-11-05 11:52:42 AM
xria: Yeah, I mean there is a few game saves that might be annoying to lose, and I would have to reconstruct my address/phone numbers/birthday list, apart from that it would just be a hassle reinstalling, loss of data is not really important for me anyway.

I have 13 years of photographs/panoramas in the RAW format.

fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net
scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net

scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net

// there are five copies across three different devices.
 
2013-11-05 11:53:56 AM
blue_2501: WTF? This is a thing now? And people aren't locked away in jail?!

People in other countries don't tend to have anything to fear from US laws with regards to the Internet.
 
2013-11-05 12:07:42 PM

tlchwi02: these days a re-install of win 7 or 8 takes about 20 minutes and doesn't even destroy your data (and is very easy to do)- and that assumes the data is on the same disk as the OS. with the space requirements of things like HD movies, music collectons and photos- combined with the ever plummeting price of storage- even casual users tend to have external drives/secondary internal drives. reinstall the primary drive is pretty trivial. Worst case, as long as you have your documents, quicken and tax returns backed up (which you can do easily on a 5 dollar thumb drive) what else do you need that would be worth 300 bucks vs. re-downloading it?


I take it you haven't messed with Cryptolocker yet.  Your data is hosed unless you either, a) have good offline backups or 2) pay them the ransom and hope they unlock your files.

It's a biatch and infected our office pretty badly.  The a-holes spoofed an internal email address and our dumb users opened up the file and wondered why it didn't work (and had disabled her antivirus somehow).  Good thing we have great backups and didn't lose any data, but it was hell to clean up because it migrated onto a file server and was caught rather quickly.
 
2013-11-05 12:11:41 PM
So, we can't have somebody find these guys and put a shiv in their necks?
 
2013-11-05 12:13:25 PM

Obbi: Right, yeah. I'm in that fuzzy-logic range where the stuff I don't want to lose, I have up hosted in a server somewhere on the internet. The reasoning is that my rig could die on me, and I couldn't trust myself to keep offline backups in a decent place.

So I think to myself "So, some random server out there that could vanish at any moment is preferable to being more responsible with your important data"

"Well, maybe it just turns out it's not so important that I change myself over it."


I use Dropbox pretty heavily, but it is syncing data between several machines plus doing cloud storage, file sharing, etc, all at the same time. I'm reasonably sure Dropbox isn't going to vanish tomorrow, there security setup seems pretty good, and my data is stored on multiple machines I have direct access too. Seems like a pretty good bet to me.

Of course that only covers some of the data I need to keep backed up for work. But other critical stuff is backed up to an onsite server maintained by the University, but owned by us.
 
2013-11-05 12:15:57 PM

ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?


My father-in-law will find a way to get this, just like he does everything else.  I don't think it's weird porn, but in his case he tries to be productive while spending no money so he installs a lot of dodgy software and goes to the dodgy sites that advertise them.  Since I often don't have time for his shiat, he ends up paying someone to scrub his computer every couple of months or so, then it runs like crap because what he really needed was a nuke and reinstall, but that would mean a little effort on his part.

If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.
 
2013-11-05 12:27:47 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.


No. I know it's a popular George Carlin quote, and I know people say it to seem smart/cynical, but that's not how averages work.

If I have the numbers 9, 7, 6, and 1, half of the numbers are not less than 5.75.

Now, if we assume a bell shaped curve for intelligence (once we've DEFINED how in gods name we *quanitfy* intelligence, and IQ and SAT aren't necessarily the best judges of that...), THEN we can say half of all people are of less than average intelligence.
 
2013-11-05 12:29:16 PM

blue_2501: FTFA:Like other forms of ransomware...

WTF?  This is a thing now?  And people aren't locked away in jail?!

Computer tech law needs a serious overall, especially the part about EULAs.


Uh, it's already illegal, the problem is the folks are in other countries, like Russia.
 
2013-11-05 12:35:03 PM
I still don't know how people get this crap on their computers in the first place. I've never had a virus or any kind of malware on any of my computers and I honestly don't know where people even find it. Does it come from popups or ads? I've had them blocked for years so it beats me where it comes from and how gullible and naive do you have to be to even install something like this? It just baffles me.
 
2013-11-05 12:40:15 PM

lordargent: blue_2501: WTF? This is a thing now? And people aren't locked away in jail?!

People in other countries don't tend to have anything to fear from US laws with regards to the Internet.


Well they called in all the stops to go after the owner of a filesharing website.  But when people do ACTUAL harm they can't be assed?
 
2013-11-05 12:44:01 PM

Warlordtrooper: lordargent: blue_2501: WTF? This is a thing now? And people aren't locked away in jail?!

People in other countries don't tend to have anything to fear from US laws with regards to the Internet.

Well they called in all the stops to go after the owner of a filesharing website.  But when people do ACTUAL harm they can't be assed?


Oh if you share mp3s the US will send an invasion force to your country to find you. You don't mess with the entertainment industry.
 
2013-11-05 12:47:49 PM

Felgraf: Uh, it's already illegal, the problem is the folks are in other countries, like Russia.


Or, in russia's case:

The problem is that it's released BY other countries, like russia...

//at the very least, it wouldn't be all that surprising.
 
2013-11-05 01:11:35 PM

socodog: So, we can't have somebody find these guys and put a shiv in their necks?


That's what I've always wondered. At what point does it become desirable to track down the authors of these programs and fark their world up?

I assumed it was either not cost effective or downright impossible to track them down.
 
2013-11-05 01:21:01 PM

Mentalpatient87: socodog: So, we can't have somebody find these guys and put a shiv in their necks?

That's what I've always wondered. At what point does it become desirable to track down the authors of these programs and fark their world up?

I assumed it was either not cost effective or downright impossible to track them down.


I've honestly been wondering about this too.  Infecting Joe User's computer is one thing, but what happens if it hits something owned by a major crime syndicate?  They may well have contacts that will be able to identify the authors, and I imagine that shortly afterwards the authors either end up dead or without working knees.
 
2013-11-05 01:21:50 PM

Felgraf: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.

No. I know it's a popular George Carlin quote, and I know people say it to seem smart/cynical, but that's not how averages work.

If I have the numbers 9, 7, 6, and 1, half of the numbers are not less than 5.75.

Now, if we assume a bell shaped curve for intelligence (once we've DEFINED how in gods name we *quanitfy* intelligence, and IQ and SAT aren't necessarily the best judges of that...), THEN we can say half of all people are of less than average intelligence.


I had that same thought.  However, IQ test scores are generally normalized when they provide results.  If one were to go with the idea that IQ test scored indicate intelligence then Abe Vigoda's ghost would actually be correct.
 
2013-11-05 01:24:24 PM

Rev. Skarekroe: Are Bitcoins really worth $150 or more a piece?


Yes, for now.
i.imgur.com
 
2013-11-05 01:34:29 PM
JonZoidberg: If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.

Does not exist.

// Because believe me, I have tried, now the question is, what level of imperfection are you willing to accept.
 
2013-11-05 01:42:48 PM

JonZoidberg: If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.


I so happen to have created such a program and would be more than happy to send it to you.  Just give me your email address and when I get around to sending you the program just click the link "notavirus.exe"
 
2013-11-05 01:47:55 PM
JonZoidberg:

If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.

Nothing's perfect, but Google Drive works OCR with PDFs, jpgs, pngs and gifs, with some limitations.

https://suppor t.google.com/drive/answer/176692?hl=en
 
2013-11-05 01:52:50 PM

MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?


They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.
 
2013-11-05 02:06:12 PM

KhanAidan: I had that same thought. However, IQ test scores are generally normalized when they provide results. If one were to go with the idea that IQ test scored indicate intelligence then Abe Vigoda's ghost would actually be correct.


Felgraf: Now, if we assume a bell shaped curve for intelligence


One purpose of IQ was that it WAS a normal distribution curve (centered on 100), so that yes, the average is actually the center and there would be approximately equal distributions on both ends.  So Carlin was not wrong, assuming you have faith that IQ means anything.

Now, the question of whether IQ is really meaningful is something else entirely.
 
2013-11-05 02:07:53 PM
For the developer of this travesty:
 
2013-11-05 02:09:02 PM

lordargent: JonZoidberg: If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.

Does not exist.

// Because believe me, I have tried, now the question is, what level of imperfection are you willing to accept.


Your green-quotingshticksucks. Stop it.
 
2013-11-05 02:09:06 PM
I've got to wonder if this is why Bitcoins are going up in price right now.

After all, it's not just druggies and gun nuts using Bitcoin anymore, right?
 
2013-11-05 02:09:51 PM

NuclearPenguins: lordargent: JonZoidberg: If anyone knows a fully automated system to take PDFs and multipage TIFFs and turn them into perfectly OCR'd and formatted Word Documents (or open office) he'd be a happy clam.

Does not exist.

// Because believe me, I have tried, now the question is, what level of imperfection are you willing to accept.

Your green-quoting shtick sucks. Stop it.


FTFM
 
2013-11-05 02:16:01 PM

Jormungandr: It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.


Funny, I refer to them as "click-happy". They feel they're so experienced they tend to click really fast on everything like they're in a race for something. Mind you, they of course don't pay any attention to what they're clicking on.
 
2013-11-05 02:42:01 PM
If this happened to me, depending on how and when it happened; I would be willing to pay.  But I'd never believe they'd actually give me the key, and even if they did, I'd have to assume they'd be interested stealing whatever financial details I provide....so I'd just format.

I'm not sure if anyone has ever done it (and I'm pretending that it is an original idea) but I've always wanted to write a malware that would slowly scan your hard-drive for anything that might be illegal.  Stolen movies/mp3s/images or videos that were made in countries with different age of consent laws but that get aggregated together on popular free adult-themed sites.  Presumably everyone is on Facebook and it would use that to decide if the primary computer user was married or single and forward on e-mails that could indicate infidelity.  If they log into a bank account, that would be recorded too.  As it collects data it would update some database somewhere.....then I'd blackmail them.

I'd have lots of info to work from, let's say I knew someone was downloading mp3s - lots of people do, but I know the guy is loaded; so I fake up some letters and offer to settle out-of-court, including a list of all the pirated mp3s he has.  If the RIAA can do it, I should be able to do it while pretending to be the RIAA.

Sure, it's illegal, but I'd be able to justify it by knowing I'm only punishing criminals!
 
2013-11-05 02:45:20 PM
Shouldn't they be traceable if they accept credit card payments? And even it they can't be arrested, couldn't the credit card companies block them?
 
2013-11-05 03:03:54 PM

Warlordtrooper: Well they called in all the stops to go after the owner of a filesharing website. But when people do ACTUAL harm they can't be assed?


Those are boostrappy self starters. Those crypto locker writers are just just using a good old fashioned hard sell.

I mean, just look how secure their data is now that it's encrypted. Who wouldn't pay for security like that in times like this.

Now SHARING.  SHARING causes REAL TANGIBLE HARM.

/You wouldn't steal food with the hungry billionaires by sharing, would you?
 
2013-11-05 03:31:22 PM

fluffy2097: serial_crusher: $230.58, apparently. Paying in USD is your best bet.
/ Yes, I do wish I had bought some bitcoins when they were worth about 25 cents.

The problem with buttcoin is that if you had 5000 you wanted to cash out today to buy, say, a house or a car, there is nobody on earth who has the desire to buy 5000 bitcoins and also the finances to afford them.

Getting buttcoin to USD pretty much involves going to "bank of the shady dude in the van down by the old drainage culvert south of town."

Or you get someone to mail you a pre-paid VISA card

Or you try and get it out of Magic: The Gathering Online, Exchange.   But they currently allow only limited withdrawls and have a lagtime of days or weeks.


There are plenty of US based exchanges that will do this.  CampBX was the one I used for a whille and it worked out fine, deposited money got coins, bought coins, and withdrew with no issues.
 
2013-11-05 03:35:38 PM
Ha ha noob, you are powned by troll. I have encrypt all your file. Leave 1000 GP at below coordinates and I give you key.
 
2013-11-05 03:39:23 PM

Jormungandr: MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?

They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.


Check out Bromium (http://www.bromium.com/). Deploy their vSentry solution on all your user PC's, and your virus/malware problems will go away. It's a great product. It basically launches all internet tabs in their own MicroVM, as well as all attachments or downloads. It assumes EVERYTHING YOU DO ONLINE will compromise your system, and launches it in its own little bubble. Then when you close the app, it destroys the MicroVM.

I just rolled this out at my office and it's glorious. I can go to malwaredomainlist and click on links all day, and my host PC will never get infected. It's not a cheap solution, but it works flawlessly.
 
2013-11-05 03:46:07 PM

talkertopc: Shouldn't they be traceable if they accept credit card payments? And even it they can't be arrested, couldn't the credit card companies block them?


I think that's the article being stupid.  They use MoneyPak.  I guess the way it works is the victim buys a moneypak card, sends the info to the hackers, who then withdraw the money via some money laundering scheme.
 
2013-11-05 03:53:30 PM
How about imaging software that just takes a virtual image of your desktop that sends the image to a dumb video card and monitor? Than reverse the process for mouse clicks movement etc?
 
2013-11-05 04:11:59 PM
NuclearPenguins Ignored

1.bp.blogspot.com

// bye
 
2013-11-05 04:12:26 PM

dchurch0: Jormungandr: MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?

They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.

Check out Bromium (http://www.bromium.com/). Deploy their vSentry solution on all your user PC's, and your virus/malware problems will go away. It's a great product. It basically launches all internet tabs in their own MicroVM, as well as all attachments or downloads. It assumes EVERYTHING YOU DO ONLINE will compromise your system, and launches it in its own little bubble. Then when you close the app, it destroys the MicroVM.

I just rolled this out at my office and it's glorious. I can go to malwaredomainlist and click on links all day, and my host PC will never get infected. It's not a cheap solution, but it works flawles ...


I think it's a good product and I'm a big fan of virtualization....but there are examples of malware that can escape from virtual machines and sandboxes.  It might be the case that the exploit would need to be specific to the sandbox product you are using.  I don't mean to imply people shouldn't use them; but I do think it's a bit of an overstatement to say you'll never get infected or that it is flawless.  Still a great product though.
 
2013-11-05 04:22:08 PM
Well isn't this EXACTLY what the NSA is supposed to be looking for?  Hey NSA -- instead of listening to Angela Merkel order pizza, how about if you track these assmonkeys and forward their GPS coordinates to the closest Tomahawk-equipped military unit?
 
2013-11-05 04:24:44 PM

fluffy2097: Getting buttcoin to USD pretty much involves going to "bank of the shady dude in the van down by the old drainage culvert south of town."


Or you could use an ATM in a coffee shop.
 
2013-11-05 04:35:52 PM

ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?


I work with doctors. Somehow I have more HIPAA training than they do. Imagine a bunch of private data sitting in someone's desktop and Dr. so-and-so decides it is a good time to start opening attachments from unknown senders.

Now imagine this happens very frequently.

Thanks the gods for application aware firewall appliances.
 
2013-11-05 04:43:05 PM

lordargent: serial_crusher: people were smart enough to have backups, but I know that's doubtful.

Offline backups (since it goes after mounted drives as well, having a backup connected to the machine makes it vulnerable)

So yeah, very doubtful.

// most people just don't give that much of a damn about their data.


One nice way to defend against this sort of crap (or, for that matter, fat-fingering a file deletion and wiping out a whole directory tree by mistake) is to set up a file server that has a snapshottable filesystem (for instance, ZFS). Configure it to snapshot the system periodically (at work, it's set up to snapshot 4x daily, along with weekly and monthly snaps. If someone got CryptoLocker'd, once that infected machine was off the network, I could bring back the last good snapshot.

Aside from that, the file server at work is triple-mirrored; I can split a disk off the mirror, slide it out for my offline/offsite backup, then slide in another drive to rebuild the third mirror. Defense in depth is never a bad idea.

It's a shame that hot-swappable hard drive bays are so rare outside of data-center hardware, to the point that I've had to buy hot-swap drive cages separately for my home file server. Sure, there's eSATA and USB3, either of which makes an external drive's speed bearable, but that's still one more cabinet, one more power brick, and one more signal cable to worry about. Not to mention, if that backup drive is left online, it's not much of a backup.

That being said, ZFS has to be used with care. There are plenty of ways you can fark up a ZFS storage pool, and if you don't have backups, you're toast.
 
2013-11-05 04:52:59 PM

Ecobuckeye: Ha ha noob, you are powned by troll. I have encrypt all your file. Leave 1000 GP at below coordinates and I give you key.


Nice reference.
 
2013-11-05 04:57:25 PM
This sounds like a job for Anonymous.  they should crack the cryptolocker servers and dump the keys.
 
2013-11-05 05:12:35 PM

ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?


It could come through a poorly-vetted banner ad using a browser exploit (which is why I mark ad networks as "untrusted" in NoScript), or a note from your friend "Check out this awesome site!" with a link to an exploit site that shotguns a couple of hundred known browser exploits and a few 0-days for good measure, or the old "open this receipt" scam, or a spammed search result sending you to a booby-trapped site, or a USB key... the possibilities are endless. You don't have to visit porn or warez sites to get infected.

Plugins are a hazard unto themselves. Keep any plugins you use (Flash, Adobe Reader, VLC, etc.) up-to-date. Don't use Java in the browser if you can at all help it. If you need Java for other things, turn it off for browsers. If you must use a Java browser applet on your company network, find a better solution. If you don't need Java for anything, uninstall that farker (or don't install it in the first place).

NoScript can be pretty annoying at times, but it has saved my bacon versus booby-trapped search results, not to mention killing autoplay videos and such crap.

If you do any online banking, it's worth dedicating a machine specifically for that purpose. If you can't, then you should at least use a separate user account. Neither your "normal" user nor your "banking" user should have admin privileges. Or, do your banking from a Linux live CD.

As an Apple disliker, I hate to say it, but for some people, the iPad walled garden is a better place than the PC jungle - but even it isn't 100% effective against malware.
 
2013-11-05 05:40:35 PM

rhiannon: Jormungandr: It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.

Funny, I refer to them as "click-happy". They feel they're so experienced they tend to click really fast on everything like they're in a race for something. Mind you, they of course don't pay any attention to what they're clicking on.


That is a good one, will hafta remember that one.
 
2013-11-05 06:21:37 PM

lordargent: blue_2501: WTF? This is a thing now? And people aren't locked away in jail?!

People in other countries don't tend to have anything to fear from US laws with regards to the Internet.


I propose that an apology from Obama would fix this to my satisfaction.


i3.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-11-05 06:48:09 PM

bdub77: Pro tip: Always back up your important stuff. And stop going to weird porn sites.



I have roughly 5 TB of meticulously organized media (TV shows, movies, music, pictures, documents, etc.) saved. It's all in one place on my main personal file server, which has a RAID storage pool for some data safety. Everything on that server is also mirrored on three other machines on my LAN, all with RAID storage pools of their own (two are purpose built machines I bought for storage), though split up so I effectively have two copies of everything.

Problem is, all those machines are on my LAN and this virus would encrypt the files on the backups too if it worked it's way in to any of my machines. That's pretty farked up. Luckily I don't ever open files sent to me from sources I don't know - period. Still, my wife isn't nearly as savvy as I am... and even savvy folks could get it through another vector, like a worm creating the backdoor that these guys could exploit to infect my machines without me even doing anything.
 
2013-11-05 06:59:13 PM

NuclearPenguins: Your green-quoting shtick sucks. Stop it.


I'm honestly curious. Why? What is it hurting? Don't you have real problems you could worry about?
 
2013-11-05 07:36:34 PM

bdub77: Pro tip: Always back up your important stuff. And stop going to weird porn sites.


You're three times to get a virus from a church website than a porn website.

/Also, I understand that Cryptolocker is a worm.
 
2013-11-05 07:50:46 PM
One of my clients just called me up about an hour ago with their entire backend database encrypted.  One of their finance people got a targeted spoofed e-mail, and their backend software requires every computer have access to the mapped drive containing the database.

They just paid the $300, and are waiting hopefully for the unlock to occur.  They had received electronically all of their orders for the next day, and are now building out all of their reports by hand to try and not go out of business.

I'm not a violent person, but in this one case, I'd love to stab someone in the neck with a rusty butter knife.

/off to spend a night of restoring backups so they can at least get  some work done.
 
2013-11-05 08:04:39 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: dchurch0: Jormungandr: MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?

They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.

Check out Bromium (http://www.bromium.com/). Deploy their vSentry solution on all your user PC's, and your virus/malware problems will go away. It's a great product. It basically launches all internet tabs in their own MicroVM, as well as all attachments or downloads. It assumes EVERYTHING YOU DO ONLINE will compromise your system, and launches it in its own little bubble. Then when you close the app, it destroys the MicroVM.

I just rolled this out at my office and it's glorious. I can go to malwaredomainlist and click on links all day, and my host PC will never get infected. It's not a cheap solution, but it wor ...



Oh yeah, you're absolutely right, and I completely agree. Bromium, however is not a typical VM or sandbox solution in that it uses the chipset code to do it's thing. It's all processor driven. The minimum requirements to run it are a core i series chipset (yeah that was fun explaining to my boss that to implement it we have to upgrade 60% of the machines on our network). It's not like vmware that is a software solution running on top of the host OS. Still possible to circumvent, but a lot less likely than other sandbox solutions that I reviewed before making my decision.

I guess my point is that it beats signature based antivirus and antimalware solutions hands down, by the simple fact that it assumes everything is dirty. I really like it. Sorry if I sound like a shill. I just think this is the best product out there at this point in time. Network Security recently became a big part of my job description due to some ACH fraud, and I haven't found anything better than Bromium for combating the ability of this stuff to get on my PC's.

I've coupled that with some beefed up gateway security products, OpenDNS for web filtering/malware blocking, and running AlienVault for better visibility into my network to see what's actually talking to what. It's been a crazy few months, but I've learned quite a bit. The biggest lesson I learned, though, is that signature based AV is a relic and will fail you every single time. Visibility is the key, along with not putting all of your eggs in one basket.
 
2013-11-05 09:08:13 PM

Ivo Shandor: Rev. Skarekroe: Are Bitcoins really worth $150 or more a piece?

Yes, for now.
[i.imgur.com image 255x298]


LOL, love that picture.  If my friend could actually understand it, I would send it to him in regards to the crap he " invests " from comic book shops.
 
2013-11-05 09:20:47 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?

Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.


I see what you did there...but perhaps you didn't.

Half of the population is below the MEDIAN intelligence. As for the average (or mean) intelligence, that would depend on the distribution shape. My guess would be that MUCH MORE than half of people are below average intelligence.
 
2013-11-05 10:33:38 PM

natgab: Ivo Shandor: Rev. Skarekroe: Are Bitcoins really worth $150 or more a piece?

Yes, for now.
[i.imgur.com image 255x298]

LOL, love that picture.  If my friend could actually understand it, I would send it to him in regards to the crap he " invests " from comic book shops.


Wow, someone still believes in the Speculator Boom years after the bubble popped.
 
2013-11-05 10:34:34 PM

Sqrxz: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?

Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.

I see what you did there...but perhaps you didn't.

Half of the population is below the MEDIAN intelligence. As for the average (or mean) intelligence, that would depend on the distribution shape. My guess would be that MUCH MORE than half of people are below average intelligence.


16% of people are below 1 standard deviation of 100 IQ.
 
2013-11-05 11:03:29 PM

skinink: I've tried to get that off of someone's hard drive by reformatting. I assumed even that didn't work because after a clean format on the laptop I was working on, Cryptolocker just reappeared.


I spent three weeks trying to figure out why a friend's laptop was continually re-infecting itself with a virus even after I formatted the C: drive - it turns out the infection was lurking in the "factory restore" partition you get on a lot of branded machines.  Which is particularly off-p*ssing as it doesn't appear to most machines as a scannable volume, so is overlooked by antivirus scans.  Any machine with "Press F9 (or whatever) to restore factory defaults" is vulnerable.

\\the thing was full of Toshiba shovelware anyway
 
2013-11-05 11:42:42 PM

syrtis: skinink: I've tried to get that off of someone's hard drive by reformatting. I assumed even that didn't work because after a clean format on the laptop I was working on, Cryptolocker just reappeared.

I spent three weeks trying to figure out why a friend's laptop was continually re-infecting itself with a virus even after I formatted the C: drive - it turns out the infection was lurking in the "factory restore" partition you get on a lot of branded machines.  Which is particularly off-p*ssing as it doesn't appear to most machines as a scannable volume, so is overlooked by antivirus scans.  Any machine with "Press F9 (or whatever) to restore factory defaults" is vulnerable.

\\the thing was full of Toshiba shovelware anyway


I've never tried to do so on a Mac, but on PCs, for me anyway, it's been a matter of mounting the restore partition in Disk Manager. As far as I can tell, the restore partition on any computer where I've installed the OS over the factory installed image has never not mounted afterward.
 
2013-11-06 01:17:16 AM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ferretman: How farking stupid does one have to be to get infected with this virus? Are there that many idiots opening up xls/zip files/downloading files from people they don't know? Common sense.....where did it go?

Half the population is below average intelligence. Keep that in mind at all times when dealing with the general public.


GAHthatsnothowitworks.

That being said, the essence of your advice is spot on.
 
2013-11-06 01:23:36 AM

dchurch0: Fark_Guy_Rob: dchurch0: Jormungandr: MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?

They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.

Check out Bromium (http://www.bromium.com/). Deploy their vSentry solution on all your user PC's, and your virus/malware problems will go away. It's a great product. It basically launches all internet tabs in their own MicroVM, as well as all attachments or downloads. It assumes EVERYTHING YOU DO ONLINE will compromise your system, and launches it in its own little bubble. Then when you close the app, it destroys the MicroVM.

I just rolled this out at my office and it's glorious. I can go to malwaredomainlist and click on links all day, and my host PC will never get infected. It's not a cheap solution, but it wor ...


Oh yeah, you're absolutely right, and I completely agree. Bromium, however is not a typical VM or sandbox solution in that it uses the chipset code to do it's thing. It's all processor driven. The minimum requirements to run it are a core i series chipset (yeah that was fun explaining to my boss that to implement it we have to upgrade 60% of the machines on our network). It's not like vmware that is a software solution running on top of the host OS. Still possible to circumvent, but a lot less likely than other sandbox solutions that I reviewed before making my decision.

I guess my point is that it beats signature based antivirus and antimalware solutions hands down, by the simple fact that it assumes everything is dirty. I really like it. Sorry if I sound like a shill. I just think this is the best product out there at this point in time. Network Security recently became a big part of my job description due to some ACH fraud, and I haven't found anything better than Bromium for combating the ability of this stuff to get on my PC's.

I've coupled that with some beefed up gateway security products, OpenDNS for web filtering/malware blocking, and running AlienVault for better visibility into my network to see what's actually talking to what. It's been a crazy few months, but I've learned quite a bit. The biggest lesson I learned, though, is that signature based AV is a relic and will fail you every single time. Visibility is the key, along with not putting all of your eggs in one basket.


I'm sure that you're probably not, but yes you're coming off as a shill.

Incidentally, Bromium has repeatedly refused to provide copies of their software to security researchers like Tavis to evaluate. That isn't a good sign.

/does it support firefox or chrome yet?
 
2013-11-06 05:48:33 AM

Ivo Shandor: Yes, for now.


Bitcoins aren't exactly the same thing.  They have a lot in common with real currency (that is, something like gold, not the toilet fiat currency governments print off willy nilly).  Bitcoins were specifically designed to take on many of the characteristics of currency, whereas tulip bulbs or whatever are not.  Bitcoins aren't simply trinkets, at least anymore so than nuggets of gold are.  Like gold, it'll only last as a currency for as long as people care to treat it like a currency.  That was not true of those bulbs, which were like beanie babies:  artificially inflated demand for trinkets.

I think where people get mixed up is that the value of bitcoins is rising, whereas we're used to the value of currency falling.  But that doesn't mean it isn't technically a valid currency, in fact one could argue that fiat currencies barely qualify as valid and wouldn't even count at all if it weren't for the fact that a certain large, central organization with a lot of guns was forcing people to use it.
 
2013-11-06 07:07:52 AM

IrishFarmer: Bitcoins aren't exactly the same thing.


Yeah. Tulip bulbs can be used.  Bitcoins can be used for child pornography and drugs. That's it.

/oh and there is a single ATM that can take bitcoins and give you money that a sane person will accept
//I wonder how long that man is going to be able to keep that ATM open when people are pulling thousands of bucks in real money out every day, and putting in worthless butts.
 
2013-11-06 07:51:48 AM

Hand Banana: I still don't know how people get this crap on their computers in the first place. I've never had a virus or any kind of malware on any of my computers and I honestly don't know where people even find it. Does it come from popups or ads? I've had them blocked for years so it beats me where it comes from and how gullible and naive do you have to be to even install something like this? It just baffles me.


I've found that the people who say this are invariably the typhoid Marys of the computer community.
 
2013-11-06 08:19:37 AM

fluffy2097: Yeah. Tulip bulbs can be used.  Bitcoins can be used for child pornography and drugs. That's it.


I suppose you could use it for those things.  You can also use it to donate to charities, stay at some hotels, get pizza, get precious metals, and get a bunch of stuff from certain online retailers (legitimate ones....and otherwise) who have decided to accept it.

This is a specious argument from the get go.  If current non-acceptance of a currency meant that that currency was invalid then any and all new currencies would be invalid until they were accepted which wouldn't be possible because they're invalid.

The only substantial difference between a currency like bitcoins and a currency like the euro is that you're forced to accept the euro, no matter what the drawbacks are.  Force is all that lends any legitimacy to the euro, because if it weren't for force I can guarantee you an open market would have developed an alternative currency by now to bypass all of the nonsense inherent in fiat currencies.

For instance, one current U.S. dollar is equivalent to three cents in 1774.  Now, you won't see me buying any bitcoins because it's too risky, but bitcoins are no more absurd (and arguably less) than the official currency of the U.S.  Your ire is misplaced from where it's really deserved.
 
2013-11-06 09:03:20 AM
I have 5 years of video source material, projects and finished items that are saved on a RAID 10 on one machine and a RAID 5 on another machine not on the same network. Both are scanned for virus before a sync with a couple of virus scanners.

There is no unique data *anywhere* on our system. Encrypt what you like, we will just reformat and reinstall then recopy which would be a pain but there is no way I would let a system continue that was so infected. I would not trust the files from it ever again.

Like an infection in plants, the only proper way to deal with it is slash and burn then replant...  (And check what comes in really well to stop infections)
 
2013-11-06 09:09:13 AM

WayToBlue: dchurch0: Fark_Guy_Rob: dchurch0: Jormungandr: MindStalker: mrlewish: abhorrent1: So if they do pay, do they actually get their shiat back or do these assholes just suddenly disappear leaving you farked anyway?

What do you think?

Of course, the unlock your stuff, they do have a reputation to uphold after all.

// I wonder what happens when you reverse the charges?

They also watch the threads about their virus on places like bleeping computer -- It is kinda creepy.

I think this is really a proof of concept virus more than anything... and it proved itself. I got one user infected with this about five weeks back, lucky for me it was a salesperson's pc and had no access to anything important, no shared drives at all. We've expanded our attachment block list by a lot, since absolutely nothing detected the virus when I got my hands on it a day later, (Zero hits on Virus total!).

I can't even blame the users much there are just too many vectors, hijacked websites, drive by downloads, compromised ads, good 'ole social engineering style emails. Ironically my over 50 crowd are pretty good about stuff. They know they don't know shiat about PCs and they will ask before doing something they don't understand. It is the supposedly tech savvy crowd  who just kind of grew up with PCs that cause me grief because they will either not tell anyone about the problem, or try to fix it themselves.

Check out Bromium (http://www.bromium.com/). Deploy their vSentry solution on all your user PC's, and your virus/malware problems will go away. It's a great product. It basically launches all internet tabs in their own MicroVM, as well as all attachments or downloads. It assumes EVERYTHING YOU DO ONLINE will compromise your system, and launches it in its own little bubble. Then when you close the app, it destroys the MicroVM.

I just rolled this out at my office and it's glorious. I can go to malwaredomainlist and click on links all day, and my host PC will never get infected. It's not a ch ...


Support for Chrome by the end of this year, Firefox sometime next year.
 
2013-11-06 11:39:49 AM

IrishFarmer: This is a specious argument from the get go. If current non-acceptance of a currency meant that that currency was invalid then any and all new currencies would be invalid until they were accepted which wouldn't be possible because they're invalid.


If you can't buy anything with your buttcoins, how is it a currency?

What's even better about bitcoin is your wallet ID is randomly assigned, so if you randomly get assigned someone elses bitcoin ID (no protections to prevent this mind you), you instantly steal all of someone elses butts.

What value does the bitcoin offer?  Anonymity? All the major exchanges require ID now, and you can actually trace every bitcoin transaction back to it's original wallet ID, back to it's point of origin.

I suppose you could try and play the market, but that's impossible because it can take hours for a transaction to complete. With such wild swings in value, The market could have busted by the time your sell order goes through.

Since bitcoin servers spend most of their time verifying new blocks, not processing transactions, it's not more reliable or lightweight then credit cards. In fact, if you tried to scale it to global sizes, the whole thing would fall apart as the biatchain forks constantly.

There is more computer processing power now answering a completely worthless math problem then there is computing power trying to cure cancer, most of it in the form of ASIC miners, which are ALREADY burning more money in electricity then they can ever possibly make in butts.

Bitcoins can only go up up up, because gullible people buy in in in, and then can't get out out out.
 
2013-11-06 11:40:18 AM

IrishFarmer: Bitcoins aren't exactly the same thing.


I know. It's just an analogy. Bitcoin's corresponding graph looks like this:

Logarithmic scale:
i.imgur.com

Same data, linear scale:
i.imgur.com

These show the true "cost" of a bitcoin in its native currency, namely the amount of computational power required to mine a new block. The bitcoin algorithm tries to maintain a constant production rate by scaling up this difficulty as the total network capacity increases.

A year ago, someone with a decent graphics card had enough computational power to join a mining pool and generate a small income stream of fractional bitcoins. Today, there's no point in even trying unless you have ASIC hardware that's custom-built for mining bitcoins. And it's only profitable to buy such hardware as long as the BTC/UTC exchange rate is keeping up with the increasing difficulty.
 
2013-11-06 11:48:06 AM
buttcoin.org
/what an ASIC miner looks like inside.
//shiat quality parts hot glued together
///Warranty void if opened
////Opening will be required to operate machine.
 
2013-11-06 05:38:01 PM

fluffy2097: [buttcoin.org image 850x565]
/what an ASIC miner looks like inside.
//shiat quality parts hot glued together
///Warranty void if opened
////Opening will be required to operate machine.


How on earth does that even work?
 
2013-11-06 07:25:04 PM

Sword and Shield: How on earth does that even work?

dumpfm.s3.amazonaws.com
As you can clearly see, if you keep turning the crank, you will make infinite energy.
/Same thing applies to bitcoin.
//It DOESN'T make sense
///People are stupid and still buy in.
////I guess all the bath salts make you dumb.
 
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