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(Guardian)   Take two waterboardings and call me when he cracks   (theguardian.com) divider line 53
    More: Sick, CIA, Open Society Institute, physician-patient privileges, intelligence gathering, operant conditions, torture  
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1721 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Nov 2013 at 3:07 PM (43 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-04 09:15:51 AM
Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-11-04 09:27:06 AM
Susan R. Matthews has a disturbing series of science fiction novels about a doctor who specializes in torture. http://www.sff.net/people/susan.scribens/books.HTM.
 
2013-11-04 09:57:01 AM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


My guess would be the AMA strongly disapproves.  IIRC they don't like doctors to participate in executions, even if it's only to pronounce death as they feel it violates the oath they take.
 
2013-11-04 01:50:03 PM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


I agree, with one stipulation: they are free to practice medicine, but their only patient must be Dick Cheney.
 
2013-11-04 02:38:42 PM
Watched part of 60 Minutes with family last night and I was asked by an older relative if waterboarding was a sport.
 
2013-11-04 02:43:09 PM
Crack Waterboarding was a really unfortunate way to market bidets.
 
2013-11-04 02:44:11 PM

violentsalvation: Watched part of 60 Minutes with family last night and I was asked by an older relative if waterboarding was a sport.


A fair point of confusion, given that the term "water sports" refers to something that is not sporting at all.  Unless you're into that stuff.
 
2013-11-04 02:57:26 PM

The Onion is prophetic: violentsalvation: Watched part of 60 Minutes with family last night and I was asked by an older relative if waterboarding was a sport.

A fair point of confusion, given that the term "water sports" refers to something that is not sporting at all.  Unless you're into that stuff.


It was about Gitmo and my answer was basically: "Oh yeah Cuba has some nice beaches and the guards try to get the detainees down there at least once a week."
 
2013-11-04 03:09:40 PM
First, do some harm.
 
2013-11-04 03:11:47 PM
Looks like Bush/Obama won't be getting their third terms.

/ that's how you dismiss an accusation like this, right?
 
2013-11-04 03:13:25 PM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


Yeah, I'm sure the DoD didn't shred the records of every doctor and nurse who participated in this.
 
2013-11-04 03:15:24 PM
Medical professionals were in effect told that their ethical mantra "first do no harm" did not apply, because they were not treating people who were ill.

brilliant
 
2013-11-04 03:17:45 PM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


Nah. They'll probably all get freedom medals or something. And we used to be such a NICE country, too.....
 
2013-11-04 03:19:04 PM
not wanting to Godwin thread, but... Mengele?
 
2013-11-04 03:23:36 PM
It should be obvious by now that the creation of the CIA after WWII by America's Hardliners™ is one of the worst moves and we are massively paying for it as a country and a society.

It is totally antithetical to the very nature of what this country was said to be founded on.
 
2013-11-04 03:29:50 PM
QFTA:

Medical professionals were in effect told that their ethical mantra "first do no harm" did not apply, because they were not treating people who were ill.

What kind of educated mind buys into this evil bullshiat logic? Besides a mind that is frightened if it doesn't follow orders, it might be on the receiving end.

Release the Teguba report pictures. Everything. I can't understand why Assange and his crowd hasn't got a hold of them and put them out..

Our military leadership--from Cheney and Rumsfeld down--drove the military to commit crimes.
 
2013-11-04 03:33:30 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: Our military leadership--from Cheney and Rumsfeld down--drove the military to commit crimes.


Well, obviously this country doesn't treat such actions as crimes. Hence the potshots being taken by Cheney and Rumsfeld in interviews.
 
2013-11-04 03:34:30 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: What kind of educated mind buys into this evil bullshiat logic?


this was an administration that had this in a legal memo:
prosecution under Section 2340A [anti-terror statute] may be barred because enforcement of the statute would represent an unconstitutional infringement of the President's authority to conduct war
 
2013-11-04 03:36:00 PM

Jereco1: not wanting to Godwin thread, but... Mengele?


Mengele was at least motivated by a perverse sense of scientific curiosity.
 
2013-11-04 03:36:23 PM
FTA:   "Medical professionals were in effect told that their ethical mantra "first do no harm" did not apply, because they were not treating people who were ill."

Does this mean the next time I get a tetanus shot, my doc can use a dirty needle since I'm not sick yet?
 
2013-11-04 03:57:24 PM
The US healtcare system. Is there anything it can't do?
 
2013-11-04 04:02:20 PM
Hah! Told you there were no such things as "Death Panels!"

they're torture panels
 
2013-11-04 04:20:58 PM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


I concur, STAT.
 
2013-11-04 04:24:35 PM

Weaver95: Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.

Nah. They'll probably all get freedom medals or something. And we used to be such a NICE country, too.....


DID we?
 
2013-11-04 04:26:23 PM

nekom: Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.

My guess would be the AMA strongly disapproves.  IIRC they don't like doctors to participate in executions, even if it's only to pronounce death as they feel it violates the oath they take.


The Hypocritic One?
 
2013-11-04 04:54:48 PM
"The report lays blame primarily on the defence department (DoD) and the CIA, which required their healthcare staff to put aside any scruples in the interests of intelligence gathering and security practices that caused severe harm to detainees, from waterboarding to sleep deprivation and force-feeding."

Bullshiat. "Just following orders" didn't absolve the Nuremberg defendants and it doesn't absolve this lot.
 
2013-11-04 05:09:30 PM
Now we just let the suspects go to another country for "interrogation". But at least we don't torture
 
2013-11-04 05:37:25 PM

Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.


How about then drop them off at the Hague for trial on crimes against humanity? "Just following orders ain't an excuse."
 
2013-11-04 06:35:33 PM
How is it that I've known about this for at least five years now? This isn't news. It first came out when the torture memos surfaced. It's appalling and shocking, but it shouldn't be news. Where do people keep themselves?
 
2013-11-04 06:47:36 PM
Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.
 
2013-11-04 06:55:47 PM

Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.


Why? Because you say so?

Fight fire with fire, and barbarians with barbarism.
 
2013-11-04 07:11:09 PM

JesusJuice: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Why? Because you say so?

Fight fire with fire, and barbarians with barbarism.


Why is torture wrong? Let's see, just going off the top of my head...
 - It justifies them doing the same thing back, and worse.

- Its inhumane.
- It doesn't result in any positive results
- It puts us on the same level as the people we are trying to stop
- It puts a black mark on our nation as a whole
- An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.
- If it was actually beneficial it would be used by our own police and FBI

Sorry, but there are no positive affects of torture. The only people in favor of it just like to see people get tortured for the sake of torturing them.

 
2013-11-04 08:35:24 PM

Jormungandr: Rincewind53: Every doctor who took part in this should have his or her medical license stripped immediately and be barred from any future practice of medicine.

How about then drop them off at the Hague for trial on crimes against humanity? "Just following orders ain't an excuse."


But #winning is.

Trust me, those people will never see the inside of a jail cell or even court. As an added bonus, they will have legions of people thinking the ends justified their actions or that what they did wasn't all that terrible in the grand scheme of things.
 
2013-11-04 08:56:17 PM

JesusJuice: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Why? Because you say so?

Fight fire with fire, and barbarians with barbarism.


OK, then howabout "Torture is useless and a waste of time; it obtains no useful information and merely ensures the equally barbaric treatment of our own prisoners."

If moral wrongness gains no traction with you, then what about inefficiency and danger of repercussions?
 
m00
2013-11-04 09:03:47 PM

Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.


Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.
 
2013-11-04 09:07:18 PM

m00: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.


Probably because the House refused to fund the transfer of detainees
 
2013-11-04 10:10:15 PM

m00: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.


Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.
 
2013-11-04 10:18:54 PM

Gyrfalcon: m00: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.

Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.


But don't worry, people are still held there with dubious charges and we have outsourced the torture.

It literally is the best we can do at the point.
 
2013-11-04 11:17:53 PM

sprawl15: Medical professionals were in effect told that their ethical mantra "first do no harm" did not apply, because they were not treating people who were ill.

brilliant


That's almost a brilliantly disingenuous as a few months back when some farker was arguing that people being indefinitely detained without a trial or even charges brought against them in Guantanamo Bay and being tortured "aren't even being punished" since you can't be punished unless you've been found guilty of a crime.
 
2013-11-04 11:19:32 PM

Snapper Carr: m00: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.

Probably because the House refused to fund the transfer of detainees


Not even moar gunz made them feel safe when Obama tried to bring those people to prisons here in the USA and give them a trial.
 
2013-11-04 11:40:44 PM

super_grass: Gyrfalcon: m00: Trading Oak Trees: Torture is barbaric and wrong, and there is no justifying it, despite the strongest wishes of republicans. End of discussion.

Oh, I hadn't read that Obama closed gitmo. I guess I missed that news.

Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.

But don't worry, people are still held there with dubious charges and we have outsourced the torture.

It literally is the best we can do at the point.


That wasn't what the comment was about. Whether or not there is a prison, and who it was who ordered the torture, are two entirely different topics. As to whether the torture has been 'outsourced", let's see some citations, besides dubious talking points, Fw; Fw; fw: fw;'s, and "everybody knows the CIA does it over there".
 
m00
2013-11-04 11:58:33 PM

Gyrfalcon: Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486998/CIA-ordered-US-milit ar y-doctors-design-new-torture-methods-use-Guantanamo-Bay.html

The Taskforce on Preserving Medical Professionalism in National Security Detention Centers found that, in the decade after 9/11, US military physicians, psychiatrists and psychologists allowed 'cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment' of prisoners while acting at the direction of military leaders under both President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama.
 
2013-11-05 12:04:56 AM
FTA: The CIA's office of medical services played a critical role in advising the justice department that "enhanced interrogation" methods, such as extended sleep deprivation and waterboarding, which are recognised as forms of torture, were medically acceptable.

Right, because we should let the people doing the torturing be in charge of determining what constitutes torture. farking brilliant. I'm beginning to suspect that this country has never been the bastion of freedom and principles that old geezers claim it is. Anybody attempting to point out the ludicrous nature of that situation is either ignored or attacked. This country sucks donkey dicks.
 
m00
2013-11-05 12:08:51 AM

FedExPope: I'm beginning to suspect that this country has never been the bastion of freedom and principles that old geezers claim it is.


It has and it hasn't. Let's say the ideal has always been better than the practice. But I think that's a good thing, as it moves us in the right direction. Although it seems like a three-steps-forward-two-back proposition. But what in life isn't?
 
2013-11-05 12:09:23 AM

m00: Gyrfalcon: Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486998/CIA-ordered-US-milit ar y-doctors-design-new-torture-methods-use-Guantanamo-Bay.html

The Taskforce on Preserving Medical Professionalism in National Security Detention Centers found that, in the decade after 9/11, US military physicians, psychiatrists and psychologists allowed 'cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment' of prisoners while acting at the direction of military leaders under both President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama.


Vague accusations are vague.
My contention is that the CIA is practically a rogue organization who answers only in lip service to the President, and you know damn well Bush approved of it.

Regarding Obama: what was specifically authorized by the current administration, what percentage, what quantity, what justifications were given?

Merely painting the same face on both administrations is a bit disingenuous.
 
m00
2013-11-05 12:19:30 AM

whidbey: Vague accusations are vague.
My contention is that the CIA is practically a rogue organization who answers only in lip service to the President, and you know damn well Bush approved of it.


I don't see how it can be both. Either the CIA is a rogue organization, in which case neither president is responsible. Or it more-or-less follows the will of the President in which case both are. Unless you mean it went rogue as soon as Obama took office, but I don't find that likely.


Regarding Obama: what was specifically authorized by the current administration, what percentage, what quantity, what justifications were given?

Merely painting the same face on both administrations is a bit disingenuous.


I don't think it's painting them with the same face to say they are each morally (and, I wished legally -- but this is never going to happen) culpable for the abuses of the Executive branch that was either a result of policy, or that had a blind eye turned to it. Because security. I mean, Reagan was morally culpable for Iran-contra and Carter was morally culpable for funding Afghan warlords to fight the soviets (which morphed into some of the organizations we are fighting now). Clinton was morally culpable for signing the DMCA into law, and lending Turkey Apache helicopters in 1994 which they used to attempt Kurdish genocide. But stating this doesn't mean Bush=Obama=Clinton=Reagan=Carter. It just means I don't give people a pass because of a letter by their name, or because I happen to like other things they did in office.
 
2013-11-05 12:30:07 AM

m00: whidbey: Vague accusations are vague.
My contention is that the CIA is practically a rogue organization who answers only in lip service to the President, and you know damn well Bush approved of it.

I don't see how it can be both. Either the CIA is a rogue organization, in which case neither president is responsible. Or it more-or-less follows the will of the President in which case both are. Unless you mean it went rogue as soon as Obama took office, but I don't find that likely.


Regarding Obama: what was specifically authorized by the current administration, what percentage, what quantity, what justifications were given?

Merely painting the same face on both administrations is a bit disingenuous.

I don't think it's painting them with the same face to say they are each morally (and, I wished legally -- but this is never going to happen) culpable for the abuses of the Executive branch that was either a result of policy, or that had a blind eye turned to it. Because security. I mean, Reagan was morally culpable for Iran-contra and Carter was morally culpable for funding Afghan warlords to fight the soviets (which morphed into some of the organizations we are fighting now). Clinton was morally culpable for signing the DMCA into law, and lending Turkey Apache helicopters in 1994 which they used to attempt Kurdish genocide. But stating this doesn't mean Bush=Obama=Clinton=Reagan=Carter. It just means I don't give people a pass because of a letter by their name, or because I happen to like other things they did in office.


I know, but come on. Obama has spoken out against torture. There would have to be some sort of specific language in those orders which implicate him in the same manner as Bush.

And I'm already highly critical of the use of drone strikes, or for that matter continuing to escalate the conflict by legitimizing Bush era foreign policy. But I am a bit skeptical of your source's need to make equivalence out of what two Presidents did regarding the War on Terror.
 
m00
2013-11-05 12:55:56 AM

whidbey: I know, but come on. Obama has spoken out against torture. There would have to be some sort of specific language in those orders which implicate him in the same manner as Bush.

And I'm already highly critical of the use of drone strikes, or for that matter continuing to escalate the conflict by legitimizing Bush era foreign policy. But I am a bit skeptical of your source's need to make equivalence out of what two Presidents did regarding the War on Terror.


Yeah but you have to admit that Obama's level of transparency doesn't exactly live up to his campaign promises either. Where exactly would I find such orders? I would love to take a look and parse them.

As for the source, I did a google search and the daily mail came up. I'm not aware of any American-centric left/right bias. I'm not trying to make an equivalence between Bush and Obama here, because they're different presidents with different agendas. But according to the sources used in the article, the policy of getting doctors to help come up with new ways to torture people was continued under the Obama administration. If you don't buy it, you don't buy it.
 
2013-11-05 01:01:54 AM

m00: And I'm already highly critical of the use of drone strikes, or for that matter continuing to escalate the conflict by legitimizing Bush era foreign policy. But I am a bit skeptical of your source's need to make equivalence out of what two Presidents did regarding the War on Terror.

Yeah but you have to admit that Obama's level of transparency doesn't exactly live up to his campaign promises either. Where exactly would I find such orders? I would love to take a look and parse them.


Apparently the Guardian caught wind of it. Wikileaks?

But according to the sources used in the article, the policy of getting doctors to help come up with new ways to torture people was continued under the Obama administration. If you don't buy it, you don't buy it.

And we're back full circle. Vague accusations are vague. I want to see hard evidence that Obama willingly approved the use of torture using medical staff. Otherwise, it wouldn't surprise me that he wasn't specifically aware of it, and was already walking dangerous ground by using Bush-era methods and justifying overall policy.
 
2013-11-05 01:13:34 AM

m00: Gyrfalcon: Gitmo has nothing to do with it, jackhole. It wasn't Obama who ordered the torture memos drafted, and it wasn't Obama's stooges who wrote them. And despite Guantanamo being open, the enhanced interrogation there has been stopped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486998/CIA-ordered-US-milit ar y-doctors-design-new-torture-methods-use-Guantanamo-Bay.html

The Taskforce on Preserving Medical Professionalism in National Security Detention Centers found that, in the decade after 9/11, US military physicians, psychiatrists and psychologists allowed 'cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment' of prisoners while acting at the direction of military leaders under both President George W. Bush and President Barack Obama.


The Daily Mail? Really?

Anyway, here's a link to the actual report.  http://www.imapny.org/medicine_as_a_profession/interrogationtorture-a n d-dual-loyalty You all may be interested to know a few facts about the report, which is quite shocking, but yet sheds no new light on a topic that was known to anyone who bothered to read, for instance, "The Terror Memos" or "The Dark Side" which have been in publication for at least five years.

1. The report covered in depth only information through 2005 and up to 2006, after which some policies at Gitmo were changed. (The rulings in Hamdi, Hamdan and Rasul came down in 2004)

2. The report only covers publicly available information and requests declassification of other sources.

3. Post-2007 discussion covers methods used to break hunger strikes and classifies these techniques as "torture" along with highly coercive interrogation techniques. I haven't read the entire report yet to determine why the doctors involved in the report consider stopping someone starving himself to death is in the same category as torturing him.

4. The Executive Summary very clearly places the blame on the 2002 torture memos and subsequent CIA encouragement of the military to "go for it" and the apparent CIA belief that they were conducting some kind of post-Cold War mind control experiment on the detainees, and not on a larger policy of torturing prisoners.

Someone with more time should read this--its about 250 pages with footnotes--and see what exactly the overall report really says.
 
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