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(Journal News)   NY: As for that new bridge costing $3.9 billion, we meant $4.8 billion - but this $6.2 billion project is vital infrastructure for just $13.6 billion, unless you're some kind of tea party nut who thinks our children's safety isn't worth $28 billion   (lohud.com) divider line 62
    More: Obvious, Tappan Zee, costs, Tappan Zee Bridge, infrastructure, U.S. Department of Transportation  
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1429 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Nov 2013 at 7:37 AM (42 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-04 07:28:51 AM
How dare they spend $4.8 billion on infrastructure. Don't they realize how many Nuclear submarines we could buy with that money?

/hint - not quite one.
 
2013-11-04 07:34:42 AM
Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.
 
2013-11-04 07:38:41 AM
We're civilized, no teabaggers here. That's why we even get to discuss building something new.
 
2013-11-04 07:38:54 AM
You should be spending that kind of money (and more) to replace the Tappan Zee. It is one of the highest risk bridges in the country.

It's long past its shelf life. There are holes appearing on the surface of the bridge (necessitating steel plates to patch over the holes while the bridge undergoes nearly constant renovation). The bridge was never expected to last as long as it has, so when it was built, it was anchored in mud and much with untreated wood anchors, which are now starting to rot and break off and float to the surface.

This bridge is a disaster waiting to happen. It carries 140,000 cars between Rockland County and Westchester County every day and it is one of the longest bridges in the country (at the widest part of the Hudson river).

This is money we should be spending. A collapse would be disastrous. Hell, we should be spending far more. The original plans for the Tappan Zee replacement called for a multi-level structure, the bottom being designed to carry Metro North rail cars. It was cut because of the price tag. A further instance of being penny wise and pound foolish.
 
2013-11-04 07:40:55 AM

HotWingConspiracy: We're civilized, no teabaggers here. That's why we even get to discuss building something new.


www.carlpaladino.com
 
2013-11-04 07:42:54 AM

WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: We're civilized, no teabaggers here. That's why we even get to discuss building something new.

[www.carlpaladino.com image 485x365]


How did that work out?

Also, he's upstate. It's the Mississippi of the North East up there.
 
2013-11-04 07:43:17 AM

RexTalionis: You should be spending that kind of money (and more) to replace the Tappan Zee. It is one of the highest risk bridges in the country.

It's long past its shelf life. There are holes appearing on the surface of the bridge (necessitating steel plates to patch over the holes while the bridge undergoes nearly constant renovation). The bridge was never expected to last as long as it has, so when it was built, it was anchored in mud and much with untreated wood anchors, which are now starting to rot and break off and float to the surface.

This bridge is a disaster waiting to happen. It carries 140,000 cars between Rockland County and Westchester County every day and it is one of the longest bridges in the country (at the widest part of the Hudson river).

This is money we should be spending. A collapse would be disastrous. Hell, we should be spending far more. The original plans for the Tappan Zee replacement called for a multi-level structure, the bottom being designed to carry Metro North rail cars. It was cut because of the price tag. A further instance of being penny wise and pound foolish.


You talk like a grownup.
Boooooooring.
 
2013-11-04 07:44:59 AM
Obligatory: Planet Money's history of the Tappan Zee

/shiatty bridge
//spooky to go over
 
2013-11-04 07:46:22 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Also, he's upstate.


He's from Buffalo, isn't that western NY and not so much upstate?
 
2013-11-04 07:47:49 AM

RexTalionis: HotWingConspiracy: Also, he's upstate.

He's from Buffalo, isn't that western NY and not so much upstate?


North of me = upstate. Thems the rules.
 
2013-11-04 07:48:43 AM
FTA: "A top state official told The Journal News that financing costs aren't typically considered part of the capital construction expenses. They are counted separately because the amount can fluctuate, sometimes dramatically, depending on bond market interest rates."

Oh, so you don't include interest costs in your estimates because such costs may dramatically fluctuate? That makes us feel MUCH better.

The real reason financing costs aren't included is because it would be silly to do so. If you buy a house for $300k, you say it costs $300k. You don't add in all the interest costs for the life of your mortgage.
 
2013-11-04 07:48:58 AM
With interest rates still low, now is a good time to jump into big, expensive infrastructure projects.
 
2013-11-04 07:51:01 AM

HotWingConspiracy: RexTalionis: HotWingConspiracy: Also, he's upstate.

He's from Buffalo, isn't that western NY and not so much upstate?

North of me = upstate. Thems the rules.


Oh, you're on of THOSE NYers. Then Nan Hayworth is your gal.
 
2013-11-04 07:51:31 AM

HotWingConspiracy: RexTalionis: HotWingConspiracy: Also, he's upstate.

He's from Buffalo, isn't that western NY and not so much upstate?

North of me = upstate. Thems the rules.


So 99% of the planets population is "upstate" from where i grew up? nice!
 
2013-11-04 07:52:27 AM

WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.


So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.
 
2013-11-04 07:54:46 AM

WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.


I'll agree with this... and the last time I drove over that bridge was over a decade ago.
 
2013-11-04 07:55:29 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.


fta Toll revenue will be used to pay off the loan as well as the bonds, some of which will be payable over 35 years.
 
2013-11-04 07:57:17 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.


Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.
 
2013-11-04 07:59:14 AM

WTF Indeed: HotWingConspiracy: RexTalionis: HotWingConspiracy: Also, he's upstate.

He's from Buffalo, isn't that western NY and not so much upstate?

North of me = upstate. Thems the rules.

Oh, you're on of THOSE NYers. Then Nan Hayworth is your gal.


She lost her reelection bid last year. She's now running again, and doesn't really bring up the tea party. It just doesn't play well.
 
2013-11-04 08:02:40 AM
 
2013-11-04 08:02:47 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.


Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).
 
2013-11-04 08:05:40 AM
Maybe if we don't pay for it the bridge will fix itself.
 
2013-11-04 08:06:12 AM

BitwiseShift: The cheaper bridge had some dance moves.


And i IMMEDIATELY imagined that bridge, before i even got close to the link.
 
2013-11-04 08:08:49 AM

HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).


I think in NY that's cheap. Have you seen some of the bridge/tunnel tolls? Although the TZ doesn't lead directly into Manhattan so it should be cheaper.
 
2013-11-04 08:10:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).


Why is it insane? If that's what it costs to pay for a bridge, then why shouldn't the tolls go up? If its not worth the cost we have to pay, then don't do it.

It's not "rape", its paying for what you use. Novel concept, no?
 
2013-11-04 08:10:55 AM

cameroncrazy1984: HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).

I think in NY that's cheap. Have you seen some of the bridge/tunnel tolls? Although the TZ doesn't lead directly into Manhattan so it should be cheaper.


I guess it's the sticker shock, it's only 5 bucks now.
 
2013-11-04 08:12:50 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).

Why is it insane? If that's what it costs to pay for a bridge, then why shouldn't the tolls go up? If its not worth the cost we have to pay, then don't do it.

It's not "rape", its paying for what you use. Novel concept, no?


For most conservatives it is a novel concept to pay for infrastructure development. But it looks like tax dollars and the tolls will be used, so...good.
 
2013-11-04 08:13:07 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).

Why is it insane? If that's what it costs to pay for a bridge, then why shouldn't the tolls go up? If its not worth the cost we have to pay, then don't do it.

It's not "rape", its paying for what you use. Novel concept, no?


I somehow doubt that they're looking to break even on this. They'll be generating vastly more cash than required to pay this off and keep it maintained.
 
2013-11-04 08:14:20 AM

RexTalionis: A further instance of being penny wise and pound foolish.


Clearly you've never seen how carefully Northeastern states spend money, especially on infrastructure (coughBIGDIGcough). NY last year finished a project on 87/287 in Westchester that ran over two years late and 20% over budget - and that was AFTER supposed reforms.

Yeah, there needs to be a new bridge - but the farkups and crooks in Albany can have their bells and whistles after they bring this project in on time, on budget, and without their cronies wangling massive markups.
 
2013-11-04 08:15:11 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.


Raping the middle class is what New York property taxes are for, anyway.
 
2013-11-04 08:16:47 AM
RexTalionis:   This bridge is a disaster waiting to happen. It carries 140,000 cars between Rockland County and Westchester County every day and it is one of the longest bridges in the country (at the widest part of the Hudson river).

And why is that?  Politics.

For the TL:DR crowd, New York wanted the toll money to help fund the New York thruway.  If the bridge had been built on the more narrow section of the river, the toll money would have gone to the Port Authority, which controlled the land.
 
2013-11-04 08:20:41 AM

Gulper Eel: Clearly you've never seen how carefully Northeastern states spend money, especially on infrastructure (coughBIGDIGcough). NY last year finished a project on 87/287 in Westchester that ran over two years late and 20% over budget - and that was AFTER supposed reforms.


No, I'm aware of that project since I live right there. However, a Metro North line going over the Hudson into Rockland would be great for business on both sides of the river, not to mention NYC.

Gulper Eel: but the farkups and crooks in Albany can have their bells and whistles after they bring this project in on time, on budget, and without their cronies wangling massive markups.


How the hell do you propose to add a rail line onto a bridge that wasn't designed for rail after it has been completed? That'd involve demolishing the new bridge and starting over or building another bridge next to the first bridge. See what I mean about penny wise and pound foolish?
 
2013-11-04 08:21:12 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).

Why is it insane? If that's what it costs to pay for a bridge, then why shouldn't the tolls go up? If its not worth the cost we have to pay, then don't do it.

It's not "rape", its paying for what you use. Novel concept, no?

I somehow doubt that they're looking to break even on this. They'll be generating vastly more cash than required to pay this off and keep it maintained.


I'm not arguing for more than break even. However the $14 toll that is being talked about is supposedly what is necessary to pay for the new bridge.

I have no problem with them getting the cash exclusively from tolls, and neither should anyone else. In fact, the toll should probably have been 8 or 10 dollars in past years to build up a down payment on the new bridge.
 
2013-11-04 08:24:35 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: Debeo Summa Credo: HotWingConspiracy: cameroncrazy1984: Debeo Summa Credo: WTF Indeed: Just send anyone who complains over the Tappan Zee just once. They'll take money out of their pocket to help fund it.

So funny. The tappan zee is a toll bridge. People do pay to cross it. They should just jack up the toll to pay for the upgrade and debt service.

Again, we're civilized in NY. We can pay for infrastructure without raping the middle class.

Well that's not entirely true, I think they're still pegging the toll at $12, which is insane (though I haven't heard anything about it in a while).

Why is it insane? If that's what it costs to pay for a bridge, then why shouldn't the tolls go up? If its not worth the cost we have to pay, then don't do it.

It's not "rape", its paying for what you use. Novel concept, no?

I somehow doubt that they're looking to break even on this. They'll be generating vastly more cash than required to pay this off and keep it maintained.

I'm not arguing for more than break even. However the $14 toll that is being talked about is supposedly what is necessary to pay for the new bridge.

I have no problem with them getting the cash exclusively from tolls, and neither should anyone else. In fact, the toll should probably have been 8 or 10 dollars in past years to build up a down payment on the new bridge.


Yeah, it always felt too low in light of how the rest of the tolls are. I just read an article from four days ago and Cuomo is still waffling on the tolls, so it's up in the air.
 
2013-11-04 08:35:18 AM

RexTalionis: No, I'm aware of that project since I live right there. However, a Metro North line going over the Hudson into Rockland would be great for business on both sides of the river, not to mention NYC.


Yeah, it'd be great - but the way New York operates that would come at the expense of all the other things that need doing in the state.

This bridge is $3.9 $4.8 billion.

The same crossing with trains on it came to $16 billion. Ain't nobody in Washington was going to say "yes" to funding any of that one.
 
2013-11-04 08:45:39 AM
Looks like NY is pissed about Boston winning the World Series and having the Big Dig so they wanted to up the "infrastructure" spending to stay in the game. No word on how to fix the Mets or Yankees.
 
2013-11-04 08:49:39 AM
FTA: "A top state official told The Journal News that financing costs aren't typically considered part of the capital construction expenses. They are counted separately because the amount can fluctuate, sometimes dramatically, depending on bond market interest rates."

As opposed to capital construction expenses, which never fluctuate. Never. Ever.
 
2013-11-04 08:59:31 AM
No snowflake's safety if worth $28 billion.  fark em.
 
2013-11-04 09:01:48 AM

justinguarini4ever: FTA: "A top state official told The Journal News that financing costs aren't typically considered part of the capital construction expenses. They are counted separately because the amount can fluctuate, sometimes dramatically, depending on bond market interest rates."

As opposed to capital construction expenses, which never fluctuate. Never. Ever.


Can it truly be called "fluctuation" if it only goes up?
 
2013-11-04 09:03:48 AM
Aside from the lying-sack-of-shiattiness of that headline, reminds me of a project I was involved in a few years ago, an addition to the historic H.H. Richardson library in Easton, MA. I was asked to do a 3D model and animation. The drawings I was working from were eight years old; it had taken that long for the Town to accept the design. It went to a Town vote and was then rejected, because the construction cost was a million dollars higher than the original estimate--because that's what happens when you wait eight years to implement a design. No doubt something similar will happen with this Tappan Zee project. Essentially, you snooze, you lose.
 
2013-11-04 09:04:08 AM

AngryDragon: No snowflake's safety if worth $28 billion.  fark em.


I'm gonna guess you live in a red state with failing schools and crumbling infrastructure.
 
2013-11-04 09:22:50 AM

cameroncrazy1984: AngryDragon: No snowflake's safety if worth $28 billion.  fark em.

I'm gonna guess you live in a red state with failing schools and crumbling infrastructure.


Blue state, good schools, roads could use some work.  I'm not against spending on infrastructure.  I'm against subby's assertion that pentagon-like spending on a single project makes the precious wee ones any safer.
 
2013-11-04 09:22:51 AM
I swear I just heard someone say New Yorkers are civilized. Or was that a joke?
 
2013-11-04 09:23:00 AM
Isn't that bridge built at the widest place possible because otherwise it is out of reach of the tolling authority?
 
2013-11-04 09:49:03 AM

AngryDragon: cameroncrazy1984: AngryDragon: No snowflake's safety if worth $28 billion.  fark em.

I'm gonna guess you live in a red state with failing schools and crumbling infrastructure.

Blue state, good schools, roads could use some work.  I'm not against spending on infrastructure.  I'm against subby's assertion that pentagon-like spending on a single project makes the precious wee ones any safer.


I think that subby was trying making fun of people who claim that any amount of spending is worthwhile "for the snowflakes".
 
2013-11-04 09:56:46 AM
Wait... bridges cost money?! That's it. I'm voting for Michael Phelps.
 
2013-11-04 09:59:44 AM
Build bridge to prevent catastrophic collapse - BAD!

Shutdown government and utterly waste time and money - GOOD!!
 
2013-11-04 10:05:22 AM
I am 100% against building new bridges. The existing ones should be torn down and replaced with ferry service. Think how many full time jobs that would create. I know, I know, you will have to get up a half hour early to make it to work on time. And you will have to pay a fee to cross on the ferry. Think of the boost to the economy it will be. Don't be selfish.
 
2013-11-04 10:08:10 AM
But we can spend that money on a Republican Tantrum, no problem.

i75.photobucket.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-11-04 10:09:16 AM
They are counted separately because the amount can fluctuate, sometimes dramatically, depending on bond market interest rates.

The Massachusetts Turnpike Authority gambled on interest rates and lost badly when the auction rate market dried up. Unfortunately laws protecting municipalities from such poor judgment can omit quasi-public authorities from their scope because those authorities are supposed to know better.
 
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