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(The Atlantic Wire)   Conservative business owners win appeal in DC Circuit Court challenging the Obamacare contraceptive mandate   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 393
    More: Scary, D.C. Circuit, obamacare, individual mandate, contraceptive mandate, Law and Justice, Catholic Faith, birth control, contraceptives  
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5058 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Nov 2013 at 4:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-01 08:42:43 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister:

I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

Given the cost of health care - how does a person realize the right to health care without insurance?
(6 years ago a partial severing of a finger cost my spouse $15,000, two years ago 5 hours in the ER was $7,000)

giving someone a right they can't use is wicked


I think insurance exchanges and coops are a good thing. I think any means of allowing people to pool resources to pay for medical care is a good thing. But it is not a right or obligation for anyone else to pony up to cover someone else's costs.

When I had my heart problems, I had to pony up a couple hundred grand for care when insurance refused to cover it, and it took help from my family to cover it all. But I can't just demand that other people pay for my healthcare because I don't want to put aside money to cover the costs.
 
2013-11-01 08:43:17 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?


you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually
 
2013-11-01 08:45:42 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually


You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.
 
2013-11-01 08:46:08 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?


Ah, right.  Pay cash.

Hey everyone, problem solved!  Just pay cash!
 
2013-11-01 08:49:24 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.


Don't be proud of that.  Not even a little.  This is one of the only countries stupid enough to allow that to happen.  It's not good.  It's pure idiocy!
 
2013-11-01 08:50:17 PM  
Hey obama,
insure this punk....
img.fark.net
 
2013-11-01 08:51:29 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister:

I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

Given the cost of health care - how does a person realize the right to health care without insurance?
(6 years ago a partial severing of a finger cost my spouse $15,000, two years ago 5 hours in the ER was $7,000)

giving someone a right they can't use is wicked

I think insurance exchanges and coops are a good thing. I think any means of allowing people to pool resources to pay for medical care is a good thing. But it is not a right or obligation for anyone else to pony up to cover someone else's costs.

When I had my heart problems, I had to pony up a couple hundred grand for care when insurance refused to cover it, and it took help from my family to cover it all. But I can't just demand that other people pay for my healthcare because I don't want to put aside money to cover the costs.


actually? yes you can - its called buying insurance - since you were out of pocket that much WITH it you really ought to understand "preventative costs" better
its good your family could help you
some people don't have that resource - some people are literally a singular unit, working minimum wage and at the mercy of their employer - who are balking over a hypocritical stance on morality they themselves don't practice.

do you tell your auto insurance company you just don't care to cover that nert who rear-ended someone last week and so, while you think coverage is a good idea, you'll just give the nice officer at your accident scene the names of your parents?
 
2013-11-01 08:52:19 PM  

vrax: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

Ah, right.  Pay cash.

Hey everyone, problem solved!  Just pay cash!


Well, yes actually, that does solve the problem as far as it goes.

Insurance is meant as an investment whereby you pay in to a pool and draw out if you need to. Completely voluntary. Its a good thing, but when it ceases to be voluntary, and one is forced to buy it if only to subsidize others...I'm not sure I agree with that.

But I dunno. I just don't like being dependent on others, and I'd rather others not be dependent on me.
 
2013-11-01 08:53:31 PM  

ciberido: iodine: @ciberido
Regarding the connection between a universal, government mandated, employer provided health benefit (of any kind) and the same for an "every home shall own a shotgun" law, yes, I am practicing reductio ad absurdum.  Guilty as charged.

The problem is, you think the ridiculous part is the other guy's argument.  It's not.


Straw man!

I didn't say your argument (that my argument was ridiculous) was ridiculous.  I owned up and said my argument was ridiculous on purpose.

Incidentally, your argument isn't ridiculous but it's very badly constructed and not up to code and somewhere an adverb's gonna get hurt when it topples.

The question is: A court decision just carved out some exemption from a federally mandated, employer provided, reproductive health services benefit.  Can you cope with that or will you pop a vein as many farkers did before you?

If a Farker, such as me, defends the court's reasoning, can you cope with that or will you keep popping veins?

If a Farker defends the 'world' by arguing reductio ad absurdum, then you have next to no defense, it's game over.  At the best, you're in a "Why bother?" position, unless you have at least 500 gallons of Surdum, which is doubtful, since the Romans used almost all of it, sometimes as lube.
 
2013-11-01 08:54:40 PM  

vrax: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

Don't be proud of that.  Not even a little.  This is one of the only countries stupid enough to allow that to happen.  It's not good.  It's pure idiocy!


But j am proud of it. I stood on my own and took care of myself without being a burden to others. If I am a burden to others, I would rather be dead than burden them.
 
2013-11-01 08:57:34 PM  

Kit Fister: vrax: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

Ah, right.  Pay cash.

Hey everyone, problem solved!  Just pay cash!

Well, yes actually, that does solve the problem as far as it goes.

Insurance is meant as an investment whereby you pay in to a pool and draw out if you need to. Completely voluntary. Its a good thing, but when it ceases to be voluntary, and one is forced to buy it if only to subsidize others...I'm not sure I agree with that.

But I dunno. I just don't like being dependent on others, and I'd rather others not be dependent on me.


For the record, your stance makes my 'libertarian fire department' sense tingle. While I'm betting it's not that extreme, but there is something to be said for the idea that a perspective of being in an advantageous financial position and having good planning for disasters tends to skew an opinion on the matter.
 
2013-11-01 08:57:47 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister:

I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

Given the cost of health care - how does a person realize the right to health care without insurance?
(6 years ago a partial severing of a finger cost my spouse $15,000, two years ago 5 hours in the ER was $7,000)

giving someone a right they can't use is wicked

I think insurance exchanges and coops are a good thing. I think any means of allowing people to pool resources to pay for medical care is a good thing. But it is not a right or obligation for anyone else to pony up to cover someone else's costs.

When I had my heart problems, I had to pony up a couple hundred grand for care when insurance refused to cover it, and it took help from my family to cover it all. But I can't just demand that other people pay for my healthcare because I don't want to put aside money to cover the costs.

actually? yes you can - its called buying insurance - since you were out of pocket that much WITH it you really ought to understand "preventative costs" better
its good your family could help you
some people don't have that resource - some people are literally a singular unit, working minimum wage and at the mercy of their employer - who are balking over a hypocritical stance on morality they themselves don't practice.

do you tell your auto insurance company you just don't care to cover that nert who rear-ended someone last week and so, while you think coverage is a good idea, you'll just give the nice officer at your accident scene the names of your parents?


I am required by law to have auto insurance, but I live in a no fault state so it doesn't matter.

Plus if I caused an accident, I would gladly pay to fix the person's vehicle, because I did the damage.

I break someone's stuff, I'll pay to replace it. If I hurt someone, its my job to get them help and cover their costs because I am at fault.

Why would I expect someone else to pay for my mistakes or problems?
 
2013-11-01 09:00:04 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.


You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.
 
2013-11-01 09:00:35 PM  

SkinnyHead: theknuckler_33: SkinnyHead: A very well reasoned opinion.  I look forward to seeing Janice Rogers Brown on the US Supreme Court.

Except that providing coverage for contraception doesn't violate anyone's religious freedom.

It puts a substantial burden on their religious beliefs.  You're not questioning the sincerity of their beliefs, are you?


I am still questioning just what went wrong to make you such a moran. No car seat and you hit the windscreen as a child ?
 
2013-11-01 09:01:12 PM  

SamFlagg: Kit Fister: vrax: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

Ah, right.  Pay cash.

Hey everyone, problem solved!  Just pay cash!

Well, yes actually, that does solve the problem as far as it goes.

Insurance is meant as an investment whereby you pay in to a pool and draw out if you need to. Completely voluntary. Its a good thing, but when it ceases to be voluntary, and one is forced to buy it if only to subsidize others...I'm not sure I agree with that.

But I dunno. I just don't like being dependent on others, and I'd rather others not be dependent on me.

For the record, your stance makes my 'libertarian fire department' sense tingle. While I'm betting it's not that extreme, but there is something to be said for the idea that a perspective of being in an advantageous financial position and having good planning for disasters tends to skew an opinion on the matter.


I made barely 40k a year at the time. I had shiatty insurance. I now make 60k a year, and still have shiatty insurance. I pay for as much of my own way as I can because I can't expect someone else to bail me out or give me a handout. I'm thirty years old. I've learned that I can't depend on anyone and hate taking anything from anyone.

I am also paying nearly a grand a month to pay back my family. It'll take me twenty years to pay them back, but I will if it kills me.
 
2013-11-01 09:02:34 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.


No, my insurance denied my claims and paid nothing. My family paid off the bill against my express wishes anddemands. I had no say otherwise I would not have had them pay anything.
 
2013-11-01 09:05:28 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.


Also, yes, I am happy to pay for a woman's birth control if it means I don't have to pay for her offspring and their costs.
 
2013-11-01 09:06:26 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister:

I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

Given the cost of health care - how does a person realize the right to health care without insurance?
(6 years ago a partial severing of a finger cost my spouse $15,000, two years ago 5 hours in the ER was $7,000)

giving someone a right they can't use is wicked

I think insurance exchanges and coops are a good thing. I think any means of allowing people to pool resources to pay for medical care is a good thing. But it is not a right or obligation for anyone else to pony up to cover someone else's costs.

When I had my heart problems, I had to pony up a couple hundred grand for care when insurance refused to cover it, and it took help from my family to cover it all. But I can't just demand that other people pay for my healthcare because I don't want to put aside money to cover the costs.

actually? yes you can - its called buying insurance - since you were out of pocket that much WITH it you really ought to understand "preventative costs" better
its good your family could help you
some people don't have that resource - some people are literally a singular unit, working minimum wage and at the mercy of their employer - who are balking over a hypocritical stance on morality they themselves don't practice.

do you tell your auto insurance company you just don't care to cover that nert who rear-ended someone last week and so, while you think coverage is a good idea, you'll just give the nice officer at your accident scene the names of your parents?

I am required by law to have auto insurance, but I live in a no fault state so it doesn't matter.

Plus if I caused an accident, I would gladly pay to fix the person's vehicle, because I did the damage.

I break someone's stuff, I'll pay to replace it. If I hurt someone, its my job to ge ...


This is going nowhere.
You don't want to understand that, outside yourself, there are people who pay for something (insurance) and do not consider it a burden but rather an acknowledgement that, more likely than not, they will need to use that pool someday as well.
You don't seem to understand that what you cost your insurer for your heart issue would cover a woman's b/c years for many lifetimes

You are arguing spruce-tree raw-elk self-reliance and I am talking about math and preventative measures.
 
2013-11-01 09:09:14 PM  

Kit Fister: vrax: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

Don't be proud of that.  Not even a little.  This is one of the only countries stupid enough to allow that to happen.  It's not good.  It's pure idiocy!

But j am proud of it. I stood on my own and took care of myself without being a burden to others. If I am a burden to others, I would rather be dead than burden them.


Then you don't really believe in the concept of a society.  Technically, you burden others with your existence, taking finite, shared resources that we all use, such as clean air, water, food, land, fossil fuels, etc, that could be used by others.  However, for some reason, you are hung up simply on the monetary.  Fact is, we give and take all the time.  It's how we function as a compassionate, human society.  Some need more than others.  That you can't both empathize with those people and be willing to accept that you are deserving of the same is very sad.  If there's anything great about this country is what we've done together and for one another.  Our greatness is slipping away very quickly.
 
2013-11-01 09:09:29 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.

Also, yes, I am happy to pay for a woman's birth control if it means I don't have to pay for her offspring and their costs.

well? in that case? maybe a new thread is in order - since that is what this one started out about

/sorry about the medical debt, btw
//been there
///three
 
2013-11-01 09:09:54 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?


Have you ever had $800,000 for a heart surgery just sitting around that you could use? Do you realize that 99% of the general population doesn't? Do you realize that it needs to be paid for either way?

No, of course you don't, because you don't understand that people will always need healthcare and it will always be paid for somehow, and that cash is the least-efficient way to do it.
 
2013-11-01 09:11:11 PM  

Kit Fister: Insurance is meant as an investment whereby you pay in to a pool and draw out if you need to. Completely voluntary. Its a good thing, but when it ceases to be voluntary, and one is forced to buy it if only to subsidize others...I'm not sure I agree with that.


Why would you not agree to that when medical treatment is by nature involuntary. No one chooses to get sick, do they?
 
2013-11-01 09:16:42 PM  

Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.

No, my insurance denied my claims and paid nothing. My family paid off the bill against my express wishes anddemands. I had no say otherwise I would not have had them pay anything.


Then you DID get help from somebody. You DIDN'NT do it on your own. You did it with your family. And if your family had nothing to give, you would have been bankrupt. That is bad for society. The less bankruptcies, this means the economy is healthier. Surely that basic fact makes sense to you?

A healthy, productive society is a better society on every level.

You are like that 3rd rate actor who claimed he had been on welfare, and did anyone give him a helping hand? Nope - he was all bootstrappy, just like you.
 
2013-11-01 09:20:26 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: Insurance is meant as an investment whereby you pay in to a pool and draw out if you need to. Completely voluntary. Its a good thing, but when it ceases to be voluntary, and one is forced to buy it if only to subsidize others...I'm not sure I agree with that.

Why would you not agree to that when medical treatment is by nature involuntary. No one chooses to get sick, do they?


Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.

I like helping people who need it. I just am a bit offended that it ceases to be my choice and instead is a requirement.

As to society, I gladly pay in taxes or directly for what I take and use, because to me that's how it should work: I pay for what I need and sell what I have or what skills I have to earn themoney to pay for what I need.
 
2013-11-01 09:24:10 PM  

timelady: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: parasol: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: I think access to healthcare is a right. Insurance? Not so much. Insurance is just a product meant to offer lower prices on the gamble that most won't need serious payouts to make it worth it.

How do you get one without the other?

Every time I've had to do the hospital thing I had the option to pay cash for treatment. Did I miss the point where suddenly you couldn't be treated without insurance?

you missed the point that suddenly you can't pay for treatment in cash - don't worry - it will happen to you eventually

You mean after the $240k medical nightmare? Its goddamn expensive to be sick, but I also have no right to demand you and everyone else pony up to pay it for me. My mess, mine to clean up and deal with. I didn't even want to ask my family for help but I couldn't stop them from doing it anyway.

You have every right to opt out of insurance ("demand everyone else pony up") even though, according to your post, you were insured and so already did get support from other payers - as well as your parents.
Women asking for B/C is AVOIDING a mess - and far cheaper than your reported one-illness cost - over a LIFETIME - not to mention they, like you, pay for their coverage.

No, my insurance denied my claims and paid nothing. My family paid off the bill against my express wishes anddemands. I had no say otherwise I would not have had them pay anything.

Then you DID get help from somebody. You DIDN'NT do it on your own. You did it with your family. And if your family had nothing to give, you would have been bankrupt. That is bad for society. The less bankruptcies, this means the economy is healthier. Surely that basic fact makes sense to you?

A healthy, productive society is a better society on every level.

You are like that 3rd rate actor who claimed he had been on welfare, and did anyone give him a helping hand? Nope - he was all bootstrappy, just like you.


Yes I did have help. And I am paying off the loan every paycheck, because I didn't have a choice in them paying.

Your analogy assumes that I asked and took the handout and then said I did it on my own. What I did was more akin to having someone thrust money into my hand against my will which I now feel obligated and honorbound to pay back.

Believe me when I say I would have rather died than have to burden my family.
 
2013-11-01 09:24:27 PM  

ciberido: DubyaHater: ciberido: DubyaHater: The owner of the company has a right to set the rules

[img.4plebs.org image 250x272]
Ok, so you're a complete idiot.  Moving on.

And you're a bigger idiot for having nothing constructive to say. I guess you learned your debate skills in a middle school bathroom stall
/Moving on

Oh, I had a pretty specific point I was making, which apparently was lost under the scorn.  So I'll give you the less vituperative version, and you can tell me whether or not you find it constructive:

You're entire argument seems based on the premise "The owner of the company has a right to set the rules."  This is not true.  It has been declared untrue by no less than the  88th US Congress back in 1964.

Because it's untrue, it's well-known to be untrue, and it has been that way for at least 49 years (probably longer than you've lived), the fact that you assert a position that was specifically negated by an act of Congress without even acknowledging that little problem, suggests that you are both quite ignorant and arrogant.  At the very least, it means that, logically, we can dismiss anything you say based on that falsehood --- thus the "stop reading there" image.

It also suggests that you are both ignorant enough, and complacent enough in your own ignorance, that you will never have anything of value to contribute to the discussion.  Thus, while admittedly harsh, labeling you as "a complete idiot" is a pretty safe bet.

But what the hell, Christmas is only two months away.  I'll give you another chance.  Make a case that acknowledges civil-rights laws and their implications for what rights businesses do and do not posses, and I promise, in turn, to read it with an open mind.


This, in no way, trounces on the Civil Rights Act. No one is discriminating against an entire race. The company is saying that "we will not support supplying birth control because we don't believe in it". It's not like these employees do not have the means to obtain birth control elsewhere. People are free to purchase birth control as an out-of-pocket expense or they can purchase health insurance by other means.
If people who wish to obtain birth control were truly oppressed, they would have no other means of buying birth control. The Civil Rights Act dealt with people who could be denied employment because of their skin color. No where in this article does it say this company is denying employment to women who want birth control. As long as they're up front and say "here is our health plan. Here's what it cover and doesn't cover", and you have the choice to decide if you want to work there. You are free to seek employment elsewhere.
Is it a good decision for them to make? Only time will tell. Personally, I wouldn't want to work in a place with that belief system.
 
2013-11-01 09:27:37 PM  

WhyKnot: His analogy is correct. If people want to talk about "savings" and "financial implications", as a driver as to why birth control should be covered, then his analogy that safety equipment for dangerous sports should be covered.


Birth control is health care.  Safety equipment is not healthcare.  The analogy is thus a bad one.

If you want to make a case that safety equipment should be subsidized or tax deductible or whatnot, sure, I'd be happy to discuss that idea with you.  But to claim it's healthcare is just ridiculous.
 
2013-11-01 09:32:24 PM  

iodine: And when we take all arguments I've seen above into account, the following question remains for a federal government to answer:

If there is a federal "right to choose" via Roe v Wade then why doesn't the federal government guarantee that right and do it on its (our) own dime?  Rather it coerces enterprise, enacting legislation that reads more like "there is a right to freedom from pregnancy. Your employer, if large enough, shall buy enough insurance to pay for it, else, we'll punish your employer.  If you work for somebody with 10 employees, call Planned Parenthood.  They might cut you a break for $200.

I don't see Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Lincoln, Susan B. Anthony or Margaret Sanger standing up and saluting that piece of technocratic crap.


This just in: The federal government does a lot of things it didn't do a century or two ago.  Policies that give women more autonomy over their own bodies are one of those things.

Ideally, it would have been single payer.  Instead we're making it a requirement of employers, like minimum wage and safe working conditions.
 
2013-11-01 09:36:01 PM  

Kit Fister: Believe me when I say I would have rather died than have to burden my family.


If you honestly believe that, you must have a sad, sad life.
 
2013-11-01 09:39:03 PM  
Kit Fister:
Yes I did have help. And I am paying off the loan every paycheck, because I didn't have a choice in them paying.
Your analogy assumes that I asked and took the handout and then said I did it on my own. What I did was more akin to having someone thrust money into my hand against my will which I now feel obligated and honorbound to pay back.
Believe me when I say I would have rather died than have to burden my family.



I am going to assume that your family contacted the hospital directly, which then violated HIPA law, and paid your bill.
Otherwise? They stole your billable mail and paid behind your back
Or? they asked and you told them - and they lent you the money over your protest but realistic assessment of what you owed.
if that last then you could have taken that money, not paid the bill with it instead sending it back to them in payment while also making payments on the bill itself - which would have been the really self-reliant-my-mess scenario.

Look? you had help - you may hate it and you are honorable enough to pay it back while protesting you'd rather be dead (something that would bring your mother to heartbroken tears, no doubt, you cad)
I'm rather surprised you aren't spending more time railing at your "totally voluntary" insurance plan that covered nothing.
 
2013-11-01 09:42:27 PM  

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Weaver95: This would be a very awkward and strange precedent to set. I hope it gets overturned by SCOTUS.

I'm a Jewish business owner and the Torah says slavery is a-okay, so why can't I go buy some people to work in my stores?

I'm a Christian Scientist business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for any drugs?

I'm a Jehovah's Witness business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for blood transfusions?

Seriously, this is a terrifying bit of precedent to set.


This terrifying precedent is otherwise knowing as "the way things have always worked and will continue to work anyway."  The whole point of the healthcare exchange the ACA has implemented is that because healthcare plans are different, that is, <em>cover different things</em>, so you and I need an easy way to compare them and choose which of those things we would like and which we we'd rather not pay for.  If you actually want a plan that covers <em>every procedure</em>, the ACA is bad news for you because part of the way it's paying for itself is by taxing that sort of 'cadillac' healthcare plan.

It is incredibly cheap to buy additional insurance which covers just blood transfusions or what have you. Or you could pocket the extra cash and plan on paying for them yourself (not that expensive) in the off chance you need one.  You could also choose employment at a different company with a different healthcare plan, which, let's be honest here, is going to be almost all companies.   I understand that if someone thinks abortion is murder they are going be in a fury about having to pay for it, I don't understand why forcing the issue on them is so important to you when overcoming the obstacle in a way that satisfies all (not-politically invested) parties is easily done.
 
2013-11-01 09:44:55 PM  

iodine: And when we take all arguments I've seen above into account, the following question remains for a federal government to answer:

If there is a federal "right to choose" via Roe v Wade then why doesn't the federal government guarantee that right and do it on its (our) own dime?  Rather it coerces enterprise, enacting legislation that reads more like "there is a right to freedom from pregnancy. Your employer, if large enough, shall buy enough insurance to pay for it, else, we'll punish your employer.  If you work for somebody with 10 employees, call Planned Parenthood.  They might cut you a break for $200.


You haven't been reading the thread closely enough if you think that question hasn't already been addressed.

Ideally, yes, the USA would have a true socialized medical system in which all kinds of preventative healthcare, including birth control, was fully funded directly by the government without bringing employers into it at all.  However, the best we can do, given how opposed to any form of socialized medicine so many voters are, is this jury-rigged Rube-Goldberg contraption we all have to live with, the one Republicans shut down the government over.

If you don't like that we now "coerce enterprise," then vote the damn Republicans out of office and make your desire for a single-payer system clear.

Essentially liberals are playing tug-of-war with conservatives over healthcare and you're asking, "If it's so important to win, why haven't you won yet?"  It is, frankly, a dumb question, and again, it's been answered many times before.
 
2013-11-01 09:45:07 PM  

Kit Fister: Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.


Unfortunately, that's not how a society works. Feel free to move to a country that doesn't tax anything, I'm sure you can find one somewhere.
 
2013-11-01 09:45:14 PM  

parasol: Kit Fister:
Yes I did have help. And I am paying off the loan every paycheck, because I didn't have a choice in them paying.
Your analogy assumes that I asked and took the handout and then said I did it on my own. What I did was more akin to having someone thrust money into my hand against my will which I now feel obligated and honorbound to pay back.
Believe me when I say I would have rather died than have to burden my family.


I am going to assume that your family contacted the hospital directly, which then violated HIPA law, and paid your bill.
Otherwise? They stole your billable mail and paid behind your back
Or? they asked and you told them - and they lent you the money over your protest but realistic assessment of what you owed.
if that last then you could have taken that money, not paid the bill with it instead sending it back to them in payment while also making payments on the bill itself - which would have been the really self-reliant-my-mess scenario.

Look? you had help - you may hate it and you are honorable enough to pay it back while protesting you'd rather be dead (something that would bring your mother to heartbroken tears, no doubt, you cad)
I'm rather surprised you aren't spending more time railing at your "totally voluntary" insurance plan that covered nothing.


Oh, trust me, I spent a good deal of time trying to get reimbursements and payouts. It was worse than useless based on all the money I put in in premiums. Now I'd rather just squirrel away money and not have to deal with those sack sucking leeches.

Look I have no problems with insurance. I keep saying that. I get the logic behind it, and why its useful. Charity I can draw from if I need to like the food bank.

But don't make it sound like some kind of right you have when its a gentleman's agreement to pool resources and nothing more. Me personally, I rather have the option to just pay my own way because fark health insurance companies and their goddamn useless crap.
 
2013-11-01 09:46:52 PM  

parasol: I'm rather surprised you aren't spending more time railing at your "totally voluntary" insurance plan that covered nothing.


But don't you see? Insurance is socialisms and if it covered something it would make him feel oh so dirty.
 
2013-11-01 09:47:52 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.

Unfortunately, that's not how a society works. Feel free to move to a country that doesn't tax anything, I'm sure you can find one somewhere.


I guess I have a fundamentally different view of society then, because where I am from people help each other out of a desire to, not by swordpoint.
 
2013-11-01 09:48:21 PM  

Kit Fister: But don't make it sound like some kind of right you have when its a gentleman's agreement to pool resources and nothing more. Me personally, I rather have the option to just pay my own way because fark health insurance companies and their goddamn useless crap.


Except...you didn't pay your own way. You admitted it yourself. Just admit that your ideals don't work in the real world and move on.
 
2013-11-01 09:48:30 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: parasol: I'm rather surprised you aren't spending more time railing at your "totally voluntary" insurance plan that covered nothing.

But don't you see? Insurance is socialisms and if it covered something it would make him feel oh so dirty.


Oh fark you.
 
2013-11-01 09:49:20 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.

Unfortunately, that's not how a society works. Feel free to move to a country that doesn't tax anything, I'm sure you can find one somewhere.

I guess I have a fundamentally different view of society then, because where I am from people help each other out of a desire to, not by swordpoint.


Where do you come from? That's no country that I'm aware of. Can you name the country that doesn't collect taxes and then spend them on things that help out the greater population?
 
2013-11-01 09:50:04 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: parasol: I'm rather surprised you aren't spending more time railing at your "totally voluntary" insurance plan that covered nothing.

But don't you see? Insurance is socialisms and if it covered something it would make him feel oh so dirty.

Oh fark you.


Why are you mad? Was I incorrect in my assessment?
 
2013-11-01 09:51:53 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: But don't make it sound like some kind of right you have when its a gentleman's agreement to pool resources and nothing more. Me personally, I rather have the option to just pay my own way because fark health insurance companies and their goddamn useless crap.

Except...you didn't pay your own way. You admitted it yourself. Just admit that your ideals don't work in the real world and move on.


Maybe not, but that doesn't change my general sense of distaste at being forced to do something because some other asshole thought it was the right thing to do. Its like the office birthday party for the boss where everyone has to participate because of directivesby other bosses or get fired. Just let me do things on my own voluntarily, like join insurance if I choose to.
 
2013-11-01 09:52:42 PM  

Kit Fister: Maybe not, but that doesn't change my general sense of distaste at being forced to do something because some other asshole thought it was the right thing to do. Its like the office birthday party for the boss where everyone has to participate because of directivesby other bosses or get fired. Just let me do things on my own voluntarily, like join insurance if I choose to.


Once again, your personal "distaste," for whatever selfish reason doesn't change the fact that no country on Earth works that way, nor should it work that way.
 
2013-11-01 09:53:58 PM  
I mean, it's like an 8-year-old's worldview. I DON'T WANNA AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME *stomp feet*

Grow up and accept that you have a responsibility.
 
2013-11-01 09:55:48 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.

Unfortunately, that's not how a society works. Feel free to move to a country that doesn't tax anything, I'm sure you can find one somewhere.

I guess I have a fundamentally different view of society then, because where I am from people help each other out of a desire to, not by swordpoint.

Where do you come from? That's no country that I'm aware of. Can you name the country that doesn't collect taxes and then spend them on things that help out the greater population?


I pay taxes because I am required to and because I do use public services for which I should pay for the uuse of, like renting a tool at home depot. That is a mutually equitible trade.

Watching my neighbor pop out a new parasite every few years while continuing to collect welfare and disability because she refuses to work and knowing I am having to fund her lifestyle while she splurges on designer clothes, new electronics, and so on is more than a little irksome.
 
2013-11-01 09:55:58 PM  

Kit Fister: cameroncrazy1984: Kit Fister: Because I want my help to be given voluntarily, not taken as a compulsory act. What little is mine is mine to give freely to those who are in need, not demanded of me.

Unfortunately, that's not how a society works. Feel free to move to a country that doesn't tax anything, I'm sure you can find one somewhere.

I guess I have a fundamentally different view of society then, because where I am from people help each other out of a desire to, not by swordpoint.


You must be from that area where everyone holds hands and dances to the mailbox on April 15th
 
2013-11-01 09:56:27 PM  

ciberido: acohn: capn' fun: So...  Now, if I worked for a "conservative" employer, that employer gets to decide whether/when my wife or daughter should/should not get pregnant?  Because Jesus?

No, you and your wife and your daughter and her SO get to decide that by whatever legal means available.  That's a separate issue of whether an employer, particularly a non-publicly-held stock corporation, must pay for those means.


"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread."


Ohhhh! Right. I just need to pay extra, out of pocket, for the same birth control, at full retail, than the same thing covered or discounted by the insurance policies of my friends and neighbors who don't work for capricious religious assclowns. Because Jesus. Are those the legal means you refer to?
 
2013-11-01 09:58:03 PM  

Kit Fister: I pay taxes because I am required to and because I do use public services for which I should pay for the uuse of, like renting a tool at home depot. That is a mutually equitible trade.


And health insurance...isn't? Please explain how it isn't. You yourself have had to use healthcare. 100% of the population will use it. Why should you not be required to have insurance for it? It's the same exact thing.

Kit Fister: Watching my neighbor pop out a new parasite every few years while continuing to collect welfare and disability because she refuses to work and knowing I am having to fund her lifestyle while she splurges on designer clothes, new electronics, and so on is more than a little irksome.


I know for a fact that this is bullsh*t since welfare reform. Get a new talking point. Just because Rush Limbaugh reinforces this stereotype doesn't make it true. Good luck buying designer clothes and new electronics on $400/month.
 
2013-11-01 09:59:24 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: I mean, it's like an 8-year-old's worldview. I DON'T WANNA AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME *stomp feet*

Grow up and accept that you have a responsibility.


To myself? Yes. To pay my bills and to not hurt other people? Yes. I have no other responsibility than that. Any other responsibility beyond that is one purely concocted by you.

I pay fairly for what I use. If the feds blow their money on bullshiat its none of my business. Don't act like I have some moral imperative to support everyone else because your life is your own. If you need my help, ask. I will gladlyhelp voluntarily. Just don't demand and expect that I will help because society!
 
2013-11-01 09:59:25 PM  

iodine: ciberido: iodine: @ciberido
Regarding the connection between a universal, government mandated, employer provided health benefit (of any kind) and the same for an "every home shall own a shotgun" law, yes, I am practicing reductio ad absurdum.  Guilty as charged.

The problem is, you think the ridiculous part is the other guy's argument.  It's not.

Straw man!



I've lost track, honestly, of what exactly the argument was.  If you want to have a protracted discussion, please quote better next time, with links back to the post you're responding to, at every step.
 
2013-11-01 09:59:34 PM  
Seriously. I can't believe someone brought out a debunked "welfare queens" stereotype. That sh*t's been around for 30 years and been debunked for about the same time.
 
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