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(The Atlantic Wire)   Conservative business owners win appeal in DC Circuit Court challenging the Obamacare contraceptive mandate   (theatlanticwire.com) divider line 393
    More: Scary, D.C. Circuit, obamacare, individual mandate, contraceptive mandate, Law and Justice, Catholic Faith, birth control, contraceptives  
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5034 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Nov 2013 at 4:37 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-11-01 04:53:14 PM
a. The Pill.
b. Diaphragm.
C. D&C.
d. IUD.
e. Condom.
f. Sponge.

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you tell which one is not like the others ...?
 
2013-11-01 04:53:21 PM
What if, like Ned Flanders, you didn't believe in insurance at all?

What if you considered insurance to be a form of gambling, which you are religiously opposed to?
 
2013-11-01 04:54:38 PM

ShadowKamui: Assassinate the CEO and demand the government now recognize you as the owner according to your Sith religion


The CEO has dissolved the board. The branch managers will have local control.
 
2013-11-01 04:54:40 PM
I can think of some other unfortunate consequences of such a precedent:

1: Equal opportunity employment is against my religion. I demand that I be allowed to discriminate against anyone of the wrong beliefs, or who my religion states is inferior.

2: The Fair Housing act is against my religion. I demand that I be allowed to keep the "wrong" people out of my neighborhood/HOA/apartments/town.

3: Disabled people offend my god, I demand that I be allowed to remove all wheelchair ramps, accessible doors, etc from my business.

Etc Etc...

In all seriousness, religious freedom and rights are all well and good, until they interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights. Freedom of religion should end where my rights begin.
 
2013-11-01 04:54:45 PM
Well, since their opposition is based on solid scientific and medical grounds, I can fully underst... wait... "Religious freedom"?!  Hey, FARK YOU!  Close your business and go start a church, assholes!
 
2013-11-01 04:55:01 PM
Find it hard to be outraged or find this 'scary' or a 'dangerous precedent'.

Chances are if you can't afford condoms, you can't afford STD treatments, an abortion, or childcare either.  No reason anyone else should have to pay for those things for you, just so you can get your rocks off.

I'll change my mind if I can get my motorcycle helmet (not a euphemism), brake pads, and other preventative safety equipment for my own recreational activities covered by medical insurance as well.
 
2013-11-01 04:55:08 PM
I'd like to see the piece of Catholic dogma that says that providing a health care plan to your employees that includes coverage for contraception is a sin. Because, you know, it doesn't exist. This is purely about butthurt conservatives doing every petty thing they can think of to try to retaliate against that mean old Obama.
 
2013-11-01 04:55:50 PM

cman: Such hatred is disturbing

I wish we had an FWC thread to cool everyone down.


Are you saying these assholes do not deserve the anger being directed towards them?
 
2013-11-01 04:56:35 PM

enry: So we have corporations as people and now people as corporations.


Listen... this is the Republicans agenda all along.  Now that people are corporations, they can... and will breed. Then the new corporations will provide jobs for everyone!
 
2013-11-01 04:57:10 PM

R.O.U.S: In all seriousness, religious freedom and rights are all well and good, until they interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights. Freedom of religion should end where my rights begin.


My right to swing my fist ends at your face.  Unless my fist is Jesus, in which case it ends someone in your vagina.  Or something.
 
2013-11-01 04:57:13 PM

drop: I'll change my mind if I can get my motorcycle helmet (not a euphemism), brake pads, and other preventative safety equipment for my own recreational activities covered by medical insurance as well.


STFU and GTFO until you can comprehend the difference between medicine and farking motorcycle riding.
 
2013-11-01 04:57:50 PM
*ends someWHERE in your vagina

damnit
 
2013-11-01 04:58:01 PM

drop: Find it hard to be outraged or find this 'scary' or a 'dangerous precedent'.

Chances are if you can't afford condoms, you can't afford STD treatments, an abortion, or childcare either.  No reason anyone else should have to pay for those things for you, just so you can get your rocks off.

I'll change my mind if I can get my motorcycle helmet (not a euphemism), brake pads, and other preventative safety equipment for my own recreational activities covered by medical insurance as well.


Really?  You're going to compare human nature and a serious public health issue to riding a motorcycle?!
 
2013-11-01 04:58:08 PM

Ed Grubermann: cman: Such hatred is disturbing

I wish we had an FWC thread to cool everyone down.

Are you saying these assholes do not deserve the anger being directed towards them?


I am saying that people are too hot and we need to have cooler heads prevail
 
2013-11-01 04:58:24 PM
There appears to be a few options to run with for these Gilardi brothers.

If you deny contraceptives to your female employees you it seems only reasonable to honor all forms of necessary maternal leave for said employees. And, since we are playing fair in this country now, that is extended further to all male employees. Done and done.

If you are to claim that your business has a different set of rules because your business is Christian, then the Supreme Court gets will get to decide if religious affiliations are taxable. Which they totally wont, because every company in America would start paying lip service to whatever deity they could think of first and write it off as "FSM's true noodley wish". So, there's that.

How is their denying coverage to employees not forcing their own religion on others? I choke on an french fry and a Christian scientist says, 'Gods will' and lets me die (hyperbole, yes.)

(next subject)

Please supreme court, please go back and rethink this garbage about corporations being people. They aren't.

Though, this does set up a case eventually for one of those salvage and strip companies to pop up in court claiming that their new parent company raped them.
 
2013-11-01 05:00:04 PM
So does this mean I can file suit against them for violating my religious rights for denying me abortion and contraceptives? I like where this is going!
 
2013-11-01 05:00:14 PM

theknuckler_33: I'd like to see the piece of Catholic dogma that says that providing a health care plan to your employees that includes coverage for contraception is a sin. Because, you know, it doesn't exist. This is purely about butthurt conservatives doing every petty thing they can think of to try to retaliate against that mean old Obama.


I'd like to hear the Pope tell them to STFU, since apparently he didn't say it quite clearly enough, or use small enough words, last time.
 
2013-11-01 05:00:25 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

52% legal only under certain circumstances
26% legal under any circumstances
20% not legal under any circumstances

With only 26% thinking it should be open access in all situations, err...
 
2013-11-01 05:00:52 PM

R.O.U.S: In all seriousness, religious freedom and rights are all well and good, until they interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights. Freedom of religion should end where my rights begin.


Which right or freedom was being impinged?  The right to have someone else buy you stuff?
 
2013-11-01 05:00:54 PM

SkinnyHead: A very well reasoned opinion.  I look forward to seeing Janice Rogers Brown on the US Supreme Court.


Except that providing coverage for contraception doesn't violate anyone's religious freedom.
 
2013-11-01 05:01:07 PM

drop: Find it hard to be outraged or find this 'scary' or a 'dangerous precedent'.

Chances are if you can't afford condoms, you can't afford STD treatments, an abortion, or childcare either.  No reason anyone else should have to pay for those things for you, just so you can get your rocks off.

I'll change my mind if I can get my motorcycle helmet (not a euphemism), brake pads, and other preventative safety equipment for my own recreational activities covered by medical insurance as well.


Unlike farking, motorcycling is not basic human nature.
 
2013-11-01 05:01:12 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Weaver95: This would be a very awkward and strange precedent to set. I hope it gets overturned by SCOTUS.

I'm a Jewish business owner and the Torah says slavery is a-okay, so why can't I go buy some people to work in my stores?

I'm a Christian Scientist business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for any drugs?

I'm a Jehovah's Witness business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for blood transfusions?

Seriously, this is a terrifying bit of precedent to set.


Oh come on. Those aren't real religions. This is a Christian nation under the true faith.
 
2013-11-01 05:02:33 PM
I'm trying to think of something snarky to say but I just don't have it me anymore.

There's no fixing this. Burn it all down and start over.
 
2013-11-01 05:02:47 PM

kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."


Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.
 
2013-11-01 05:03:58 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: How can you justify being so anti-abortion AND anti-contraceptive?  I bet they support abstinence only "education" too.  FFS.


It's like abstinence-only gun control.  It's about finding a way to effectively ban something that's legal.
 
2013-11-01 05:04:29 PM

chapman: Which right or freedom was being impinged? The right to have someone else buy you stuff?


This is not about free shiat, this is about medical care and insurance. Unless you think that people getting chemo under their insurance are getting free shiat, then STFU.
 
2013-11-01 05:05:03 PM

leevis: kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."

Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


Does the employer's insurance pay for Viagra, Cialis, etc?  I bet it does.
 
2013-11-01 05:05:24 PM

Weaver95: I wonder how the evangelicals will reconcile corporate religion with that whole "thou shalt have no other gods before me" line in their bible?


Who woulda thunk that putting religion in your politics results in putting politics in your religion.
 
2013-11-01 05:06:00 PM

drop: Find it hard to be outraged or find this 'scary' or a 'dangerous precedent'.

Chances are if you can't afford condoms, you can't afford STD treatments, an abortion, or childcare either.  No reason anyone else should have to pay for those things for you, just so you can get your rocks off.

I'll change my mind if I can get my motorcycle helmet (not a euphemism), brake pads, and other preventative safety equipment for my own recreational activities covered by medical insurance as well.


Birth control is not just about preventing pregnancy, you moron.  The pill can protect against cancer, help keep the skin clear, and ease the symptoms of PMS.
 
2013-11-01 05:06:11 PM
So how many businesses and companies are owned by Muslims in America and can they all now impose Sharia law on their employees?
 
2013-11-01 05:06:16 PM

leevis: kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."

Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


Are you as outraged that those same people have been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for high blood pressure or asthma medicine or for discounts on gym memberships?
 
2013-11-01 05:06:17 PM

leevis: Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


Birth control is part of healthcare, and, as such, is covered under healthcare insurance. Family planning is a huge portion of any woman's life, health and well-being. If you don't understand this, then STFU and GTFO.
 
2013-11-01 05:06:27 PM
Lots of erroneous arguments in this thread are whining about this well considered decision.  If Gilardi's doesn't want to fund insurance benefits for contraception or abortion and the courts agree with them, then folks can suck it (and make them pay the wage premium that would provide for personal funding of this very personal benefit). Plenty of employers legally offer no health benefits at all.

One might complain that neither position should be allowed, but even in the twilight of Obamacare, that argument is going nowhere quickly, at least as a practical matter of politics being "the art of the possible".

Let's try mandating that all employers need to pay for a firearm for any employee who wants one.  That might be a "life saving device".  No?  Then time to suck it and move along.
 
2013-11-01 05:07:03 PM

demaL-demaL-yeH: ginandbacon: Stop this world...

Too bad: They don't want you to get off.


No kidding.
 
2013-11-01 05:07:58 PM

leevis: kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."

Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


The "special education" classes you took in high school have obviously failed you. Special rights refers to demanding unique personal exceptions from the law and ACA is the law.
 
2013-11-01 05:08:23 PM

Cupajo: Birth control is not just about preventing pregnancy, you moron


And even if it is, it's still heath care. A woman is under risks of all sorts of adverse outcomes through pregnancy. A woman's ability to choose when and how frequently she is pregnant is a huge portion of her health care.
 
2013-11-01 05:08:30 PM
I'm sure many companies (people after all) have religious objections to treating disease and insist you must pray it away. They will now succeed in escaping paying for any healthcare.

Yeah Freedom!
 
2013-11-01 05:08:32 PM
Corporations don't have a religion. Corporations are a legal fiction.

If you form a corporation you are literally asking the big bad government to alter the rules of reality and create a new person, and then make that person take on all the bad things that could happen to your business, shielding you for the most part. I'm of the opinion that if you want the government to do that for you, you can play by the government's rules. Don't like it? Make it a sole proprietorship and face the perils of business your own damn self.
 
2013-11-01 05:08:53 PM

chapman: R.O.U.S: In all seriousness, religious freedom and rights are all well and good, until they interfere with someone else's freedoms and rights. Freedom of religion should end where my rights begin.

Which right or freedom was being impinged?  The right to have someone else buy you stuff?


Most employers require their employees to pay into the plans, but for some reason the employees don't get any say in what is covered by those plans?
 
2013-11-01 05:09:13 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Freshway Foodstrucks bear signs stating, "It's not a choice, it's a child," as a way to promote the owners' anti-abortion views to the public, according to the legal complaint.

How can you justify being so anti-abortion AND anti-contraceptive?  I bet they support abstinence only "education" too.  FFS.


Their families probably made their fortune by making sure the other people in town lived in poverty and could not save up enough money to invest or save. They probably did it by promoting their church and shaming whoever refused to attend. Also, over decades they probably endorsed all kinds of ideas about women's roles as child bearers, so half of every poor household felt obligated to have children and deepen their own family's legacy of poverty.

As the years went by contraception and abortion threatened the Freshway Owning Families monopolistic control of real estate and media and higher education in their little feudal county. Some of them probably realize how they are exploiting the poor through their religious messages and high rent and company town culture. Some of them probably believe the messages are true and can't figure out why everyone doesn't have big families and lots of money - despite not realizing how monopolies work based on the class consciousness of the people who are governed by them.

And that is how they justify their uterototalitarianism's narrow ideological hellscape, I bet.
 
2013-11-01 05:09:29 PM

The RIchest Man in Babylon: Weaver95: This would be a very awkward and strange precedent to set. I hope it gets overturned by SCOTUS.

I'm a Jewish business owner and the Torah says slavery is a-okay, so why can't I go buy some people to work in my stores?


Because enslavement would infringe on their rights.

I'm a Christian Scientist business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for any drugs?

You should be able to. And if you so choose,  your employees who object should quit and find an employer who offers drug coverage, or go out and buy their own coverage.

I'm a Jehovah's Witness business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for blood transfusions?

You should be able to. And if you so choose,  your employees who object should quit and find an employer who offers transfusion coverage, or go out and buy their own coverage.
 
2013-11-01 05:10:38 PM
Nothing is 100% effective.....condoms, the Pill, IUD's. There is a risk someone using contraception could get pregnant and decide to abort the fetus. Why would the owner of a corporation who doesn't believe in abortion want to find someone's contraception? Having sex is a personal choice. You want to have sex, accept the consequences. Get your own contraception.
The owner of the company has a right to set the rules. You don't like it, start your own business and run it the way you want. Or better yet, buy your own insurance.
/my gf had a hysterectomy
//I'm good
 
2013-11-01 05:11:00 PM
 But women folk are just baby an sammich factories. It's in tha bible. If -n- you ain't gettin jiggy for jesus, you're gettin jiggy with tha devil!!!

Or some such nonsense.
 
2013-11-01 05:11:07 PM

iodine: Lots of erroneous arguments in this thread are whining about this well considered decision.  If Gilardi's doesn't want to fund insurance benefits for contraception or abortion and the courts agree with them, then folks can suck it (and make them pay the wage premium that would provide for personal funding of this very personal benefit). Plenty of employers legally offer no health benefits at all.

One might complain that neither position should be allowed, but even in the twilight of Obamacare, that argument is going nowhere quickly, at least as a practical matter of politics being "the art of the possible".

Let's try mandating that all employers need to pay for a firearm for any employee who wants one.  That might be a "life saving device".  No?  Then time to suck it and move along.


A box is obviously missing its tool.
 
2013-11-01 05:11:56 PM

leevis: kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."

Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


No. Just stop with the false equivalence. You don't retain any control over the cash you just spent on groceries. You can't tell the grocery store how to spend it.

The employer pays some of the costs of insurance. It is a form of compensation for the employees' labor that does not come close to making up for the way wages have been artificially depressed by 1) tax policy, 2) unconscionable policies - trade and taxation - that favor exporting jobs, 3) stupid corporate tax policy, 4) naked, unchecked greed, and 5) union-busting.
The minimum standards for health insurance policies are what they are, just as corporations have to live with the minimum wage.

Whether and how an employee uses her compensation is not any of the corporation's farking business.

/As noted above, they aren't blocking coverage for penis pills.
 
2013-11-01 05:12:07 PM

leevis: kronicfeld: But remember, it's gays and liberals who are demanding "special rights."

Actually, the "special rights" people are the ones who've been convinced that somehow it's the employer's responsibility to pay for birth control, and if you're opposed to that it means you hate women.


I will say, I'm vaguely irritated that the ACA mandates coverage for birth control. However, it also covers vasectomies - but people only get pissed off about the women's birth control. So, yeah, there's a bit of a sexist thing going on from the conservatives.

That being said, it is a little disingenuous to specifically call out birth control coverage for women. It's a realpolitik solution, though. Easier access to birth control for women pays off a lot more than vasectomies in the long run, statistically, both for the patient and for their families.
 
2013-11-01 05:13:07 PM

iodine: If Gilardi's doesn't want to fund insurance benefits for contraception or abortion and the courts agree with them, then folks can suck it


I wonder if they pay 100% of the premiums. I highly doubt it. Why don't the employees that likely contribute much towards those premiums get a say in what is covered? Providing a health care plan that covers contraception isn't a violation of your religious freedom since you are still free to now use contraception. There is nothing in Catholic dogma that says you can't spend any money on contraception for someone else to use if they want to.
 
2013-11-01 05:14:05 PM

jjorsett: The RIchest Man in Babylon: Weaver95: This would be a very awkward and strange precedent to set. I hope it gets overturned by SCOTUS.

I'm a Jewish business owner and the Torah says slavery is a-okay, so why can't I go buy some people to work in my stores?

Because enslavement would infringe on their rights.

I'm a Christian Scientist business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for any drugs?

You should be able to. And if you so choose,  your employees who object should quit and find an employer who offers drug coverage, or go out and buy their own coverage.

I'm a Jehovah's Witness business owner, so why can't I deny coverage for blood transfusions?

You should be able to. And if you so choose,  your employees who object should quit and find an employer who offers transfusion coverage, or go out and buy their own coverage.


I'm a Klan business owner, why do I have to serve black customers and hire black employees?

Oh, right, because I asked the government to create an entirely fictional person (i.e. my business's corporate entity) to protect myself from most liability. So I want the government to do that for me, but I don't want to play by the government's rules. Bullshiat.
 
2013-11-01 05:14:56 PM

Weaver95: enry: So we have corporations as people and now people as corporations.

I wonder how the evangelicals will reconcile corporate religion with that whole "thou shalt have no other gods before me" line in their bible?


Hasn't stopped them yet.
 
2013-11-01 05:15:47 PM

LectertheChef: Weaver95: enry: So we have corporations as people and now people as corporations.

I wonder how the evangelicals will reconcile corporate religion with that whole "thou shalt have no other gods before me" line in their bible?

Hasn't stopped them yet.


Logic isn't their strong point.
 
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