Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Enterprise News)   For-profit school agrees to repay some scammed students, stop counting McJobs in job placement statistics   (enterprisenews.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, for-profit schools, medical assistant, National Center  
•       •       •

1880 clicks; posted to Business » on 01 Nov 2013 at 12:31 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



40 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-11-01 11:17:53 AM  
For-profit Brockton school ordered to repay students $425,000

So about what a semester's tuition costs there.
 
2013-11-01 11:25:18 AM  
For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams
 
2013-11-01 11:51:00 AM  
Disclose publicly that Sullivan & Cogliano teachers primarily do not teach, with the following disclosure: "Students work individually at their own pace on a computer. School instructors are available to answer questions."
 
Well, shiat.  As far as that goes, when I do online courses I don't "primarily teach".  That being said, I DO create 100% of the content, modules, lecture notes, test study materials, practice tests, actual tests, written assignments, monitoring/mentoring of discussions online, and grading of all of the above material that the students are responsible for completing. 

Having briefly worked for a "for-profit", I can assure you that the "teachers" at those institutions do almost none of that.  Their primary role is "make sure that whatever happens, the student gets a passing grade so they can move on", which means "pay the next term's tuition".  And for that, on a per-student/per-hour basis, I was paid slightly under minimum wage.  At that point in my life, I had a Ph.D. and 10 years of experience.  However, just to give you an idea of what the DEANS experience, during an average 5 week class, I would begin with one dean of students, and end with a 3rd one.  The only ones who would dare talk to me (and violate their NDC) said that they were paid about $25 an hour for a 40 hour week.  They were expected to be available for a minimum of 90 hours onsite.  Much of that was doing things like "literally re-writing entire semesters worth of work written by functionally illiterate students".  That was when they weren't told to be blatantly falsifying accreditation data

No, I tell people, I don't think the "online" model is doomed.  I do, however, believe that the "for profit online" model is slightly less ethical than Satan's lawyer.
 
2013-11-01 11:56:59 AM  

dahmers love zombie: Disclose publicly that Sullivan & Cogliano teachers primarily do not teach, with the following disclosure: "Students work individually at their own pace on a computer. School instructors are available to answer questions."
 
Well, shiat.  As far as that goes, when I do online courses I don't "primarily teach".  That being said, I DO create 100% of the content, modules, lecture notes, test study materials, practice tests, actual tests, written assignments, monitoring/mentoring of discussions online, and grading of all of the above material that the students are responsible for completing. 

Having briefly worked for a "for-profit", I can assure you that the "teachers" at those institutions do almost none of that.  Their primary role is "make sure that whatever happens, the student gets a passing grade so they can move on", which means "pay the next term's tuition". And for that, on a per-student/per-hour basis, I was paid slightly under minimum wage.  At that point in my life, I had a Ph.D. and 10 years of experience.  However, just to give you an idea of what the DEANS experience, during an average 5 week class, I would begin with one dean of students, and end with a 3rd one.  The only ones who would dare talk to me (and violate their NDC) said that they were paid about $25 an hour for a 40 hour week.  They were expected to be available for a minimum of 90 hours onsite.  Much of that was doing things like "literally re-writing entire semesters worth of work written by functionally illiterate students".  That was when they weren't told to be blatantly falsifying accreditation data

No, I tell people, I don't think the "online" model is doomed.  I do, however, believe that the "for profit online" model is slightly less ethical than Satan's lawyer.


But they aren't paying. They're taking out federal loans which they will never be able to repay.

Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.
 
2013-11-01 12:45:31 PM  
On one shiattyass website.
 
2013-11-01 12:56:14 PM  

what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams


Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?
 
2013-11-01 01:01:07 PM  

mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?


I'm not sure for-profit universities are equivalent to private schools.
 
2013-11-01 01:03:30 PM  

what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.


And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.
 
2013-11-01 01:10:11 PM  

kwame: mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?

I'm not sure for-profit universities are equivalent to private schools.


Most of the big privates schools operate as non-profit institutions, like Harvard or Yale, as opposed to for-profit universities.
 
2013-11-01 01:30:55 PM  

mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?


Well, state run elementary schools aren't necessarily bad, the answer to your question is because of the people they enroll. A for profit school preys on people who can't get into or afford a public school
 
2013-11-01 01:34:38 PM  

kwame: what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.

And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.


No it isn't, you just check in with your alumni.

It's hard for a liberal arts school to do, but a place that is supposed to provide job training for a specific field? That shouldn;t be hard. The Department of Ed issued a regulation saying that all certificate programs and for profit schools had to have Gainful Employment statistics, but they sued and won.

if you say "come to my school to become a plumber" it's not hard to figure out how many people become plumbers within 9 months of graduating
 
2013-11-01 01:45:14 PM  
I went to a public 4-year university and there is no doubt in my mind they were misrepresenting their placement and salary numbers...

I had internships out the wazoo, letters of reference, work experience, and had a job offer from four of four of the companies I spoke to at the campus job fair.  All four job offers were about 40% under the published 'average starting salary' my department kept bragging about.  I spoke with numerous people from my major about it, not a single person claimed to have started at or above the stated average.  I did more research at the time, but the university (not a particularly prestigious place either) claimed a starting salary that was significantly higher than any of the industry figures I could find.  In fact, it was pretty much impossible to find a single job listing (never-mind whether I could get the job or not) outside of Silicon Valley that even included the 'average' salary the department claimed.

'For-profit' is just a tax designation.  The whole educational system is broken.
 
2013-11-01 02:23:22 PM  

what_now: kwame: what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.

And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.

No it isn't, you just check in with your alumni.

It's hard for a liberal arts school to do, but a place that is supposed to provide job training for a specific field? That shouldn;t be hard. The Department of Ed issued a regulation saying that all certificate programs and for profit schools had to have Gainful Employment statistics, but they sued and won.

if you say "come to my school to become a plumber" it's not hard to figure out how many people become plumbers within 9 months of graduating


I don't know about trade schools and such, but if we're talking about real schools it's a well know fact that any attempt by your alma mater to contact you after graduation is a plea for donations. That shiat goes in the shredder faster than a pre-approved credit card offer,
 
2013-11-01 02:31:03 PM  

what_now: No it isn't, you just check in with your alumni.


Certificate programs, sure.  Technical schools, most likely since they're community-based.  Even then, the benchmarks for reporting those numbers do not necessarily indicate employment in the field of their certification.  One of them is repayment rate, so a student who hit a lottery scratch off and paid off his loan contributes to gainful employment statistics.

If you have more than a couple hundred graduates, it becomes an enormous task, especially considering how seldom graduates feel like picking up the phone.

Graduate programs, professional schools, extended education all skew those numbers.  Too many variables.
 
2013-11-01 02:32:54 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: The whole educational system is broken.


I'm not sure I would say the whole system is broken because you didn't do career research until you started applying for jobs.
 
2013-11-01 02:34:24 PM  

kwame: Fark_Guy_Rob: The whole educational system is broken.

I'm not sure I would say the whole system is broken because you didn't do career research until you started applying for jobs.


Nothing in my post implied that I hadn't done career research.
 
2013-11-01 02:36:54 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: kwame: Fark_Guy_Rob: The whole educational system is broken.

I'm not sure I would say the whole system is broken because you didn't do career research until you started applying for jobs.

Nothing in my post implied that I hadn't done career research.


If you did your research and were disappointed by the salary ranges for those types of jobs, then why did you apply for them?
 
2013-11-01 02:52:00 PM  

kwame: Fark_Guy_Rob: kwame: Fark_Guy_Rob: The whole educational system is broken.

I'm not sure I would say the whole system is broken because you didn't do career research until you started applying for jobs.

Nothing in my post implied that I hadn't done career research.

If you did your research and were disappointed by the salary ranges for those types of jobs, then why did you apply for them?


Nah - I wasn't disappointed with the salaries or my career path and I selected the university I attended because of cost and location.  I made the choice before getting their propaganda on starting salaries.  So, at least in my case, I wasn't negatively impacted by it at all; but I still believe, absolutely, 100% convinced; that the school is (or at least was) intentionally misrepresenting the success of their graduates.

As I approached graduation I started spending some time looking at house prices in the area and estimating what I'd earn.  Job sites implied one thing, but my adviser and the university gave a much higher number.  And it specifically said 'starting salary' not 'starting salary + 401k contribution + discounted bus pass + free snacks during lunch', etc, etc....to reach a much higher number.  They said median starting salary X.  They didn't even say 'average', and you could always come back and argue that 'Well, ONE kid probably co-founded Google and that raises up the average' (and even then, it almost certainly wouldn't have included a salary, but whatever).

I just felt lied to.

Years later, my little sister attended the same university and went for a degree in psychology (I was computer science, if I didn't already say it).  Now, in the handful of years, starting salaries hadn't really changed much at all; but tuition had been skyrocketing.  She did the same thing with an adviser and left thinking it was cool to take out the maximum in student loans each semester because, 'I'll make $xyz per year....and that is just STARTING and it is just like, the average....so there is a 50% chance it'll be higher!'

That number they gave her was (in my opinion, but I'm less qualified to judge) also GROSSLY inflated.

I was able to convince her not to listen to the adviser, despite them existing solely to advise students on important things like finances and careers....and got her to (at least try) to reduce her student loan debt by borrowing as little as possible.  When she graduated, her starting salary was around 40% of the figure they'd been holding up for her, as a starting average, for students who graduated from this university with this degree.

I think it's pretty disgusting...but it apparently is just par-for-the-course.

I have since tried to find their figures on the university website, so I could give concrete examples - but either they don't exist or I can't find them.  But on campus, at least when we were there, it was on printed brochures.
 
2013-11-01 03:11:22 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I think it's pretty disgusting...but it apparently is just par-for-the-course.


It is not.  I'm sincerely sorry if you and your sister had that experience, but having just finished a national conference with over 3,000 advisors representing hundreds of institutions, I can promise you that a student's financial welfare is incredibly important to people in this field.  They struggle with the expectation that they should predict student eligibility for a job and how much that student will make when it's impossible to predict.  That's why I made my initial comment about not trusting anyone who tries to give you a hard number.  Even if it was reliably collected, it is very suspect.

I say that knowing that I'm involved with people and organizations who really do care and the reality is there are some who don't.  I don't doubt you might have been given a terribly inaccurate number, but maybe there's small consolation that it's apparently not being shared anymore.

I just get discouraged when I see people who believe the whole system is broken because they had a bad experience.  At least you were there to support your sister through college and not try to dissuade her from going.
 
2013-11-01 03:37:31 PM  
But the Republicans keep telling me that public schools are a failure and we need to privatize them all!
 
2013-11-01 03:41:14 PM  

kwame: what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.

And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.


It's trivial to produce. The tricky part is getting a good number with the right qualifier. As in "80% have a job in the field in 2 years or less." Well that's wonderful, what's the 1 year or less and the job offers when they graduate numbers?

Just check with alumni. Unless your school is truly wretched, most of them will at least tell you if they got a job in the field or not.
 
2013-11-01 03:52:44 PM  

ajgeek: Just check with alumni. Unless your school is truly wretched, most of them will at least tell you if they got a job in the field or not.


We've already covered this.  Once the number of graduates rises to a certain point, your data gets all wonky because the only people who answer the phones are the ones who are committed and involved and most likely have jobs.
 
2013-11-01 06:47:22 PM  

kwame: ajgeek: Just check with alumni. Unless your school is truly wretched, most of them will at least tell you if they got a job in the field or not.

We've already covered this.  Once the number of graduates rises to a certain point, your data gets all wonky because the only people who answer the phones are the ones who are committed and involved and most likely have jobs.


Unis could get with the times, and start collecting email addresses. I'd be happy to respond to an email survey from my alumni group, but I'm not likely to answer the phone.
 
2013-11-01 07:23:50 PM  

stewbert: kwame: ajgeek: Just check with alumni. Unless your school is truly wretched, most of them will at least tell you if they got a job in the field or not.

We've already covered this.  Once the number of graduates rises to a certain point, your data gets all wonky because the only people who answer the phones are the ones who are committed and involved and most likely have jobs.

Unis could get with the times, and start collecting email addresses. I'd be happy to respond to an email survey from my alumni group, but I'm not likely to answer the phone.


We do that all the time (email isn't with the times anymore, btw) and have to be happy with a 15-20% response rate. 1. Students don't check their university email after graduating 2. Students don't update contact info because they don't want to donate
 
2013-11-01 09:23:14 PM  

what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams


Most private "education" is a scam or religious deal. No vouchers, no subsidies, none of that shiat.
 
2013-11-02 02:31:11 AM  
That's one school nailed, how many more to go? 20? 40?
 
2013-11-02 03:08:59 AM  

what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams


yeah, cause "legitimat" schools with billion dollar endowments TOTALLY deserve and need the aid.  They aren't making a profit at all.  That endowment just grows every year due to smurf magic.
 
2013-11-02 03:12:08 AM  

rugman11: kwame: mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?

I'm not sure for-profit universities are equivalent to private schools.

Most of the big privates schools operate as non-profit institutions, like Harvard or Yale, as opposed to for-profit universities.


Again... nope, harvard doesent make a profit at all, do they?  they just accumulate wealth.  Somehow.

/ harvard is really good about endowment stuff and financial aid and such, but to call them non profit is a joke.
 
2013-11-02 03:20:29 AM  

what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams


X1000.
That is all.
 
2013-11-02 05:34:49 AM  

kwame: what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.

And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.


You poll the students. You see who is working in their field of study. There is your job placement rate. Its not astrophysics.
 
2013-11-02 05:37:07 AM  

Smackledorfer: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

X1000.
That is all.


I usually don't say this, but both of you are stupid and don't know what the hell you are blabbing about and have no concept of education and what makes a good one.
 
2013-11-02 06:22:11 AM  

The Billdozer: Smackledorfer: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

X1000.
That is all.

I usually don't say this, but both of you are stupid and don't know what the hell you are blabbing about and have no concept of education and what makes a good one.


Go on.

Regale us with how great your u of phoenix online degree is.
 
2013-11-02 09:02:44 AM  

The Billdozer: kwame: what_now: Most of these schools set tuition at exactly what a poor student can receive from the FAFSA. That's not accidental.

And from a different perspective, any school that gives you a job placement number is suspect.  That's a ridiculously tricky number to try and produce.

You poll the students. You see who is working in their field of study. There is your job placement rate. Its not astrophysics.


There are only 32 comments here and the problem with that has been explained twice. Just read.

As for field of study, that's another can of worms. Is the English graduate of ours who works for Intel a placement failure?
 
2013-11-02 09:32:02 AM  

I sound fat: rugman11: kwame: mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?

I'm not sure for-profit universities are equivalent to private schools.

Most of the big privates schools operate as non-profit institutions, like Harvard or Yale, as opposed to for-profit universities.

Again... nope, harvard doesent make a profit at all, do they?  they just accumulate wealth.  Somehow.

/ harvard is really good about endowment stuff and financial aid and such, but to call them non profit is a joke.


It's not a mystery how they do it, and it's not a sign they're a scam operation. Those endowments come from alumni who are happy with their education and their school.
 
2013-11-02 09:51:41 AM  

kwame: As for field of study, that's another can of worms. Is the English graduate of ours who works for Intel a placement failure?


That's for the student to decide. Are they using their skills at Intel? Or is the degree all Intel was looking for? Anecdotally, I've seen numerous English majors who've confessed about their jobs here that say they don't work in English, but their degree landed them where they are.

That said, Enterprise Car *WILL NOT* hire anyone if they don't have a Bachelor's Degree. Doesn't matter what, it just has to be a 4 year degree. Anyone who isn't a business major who takes a job there aren't using their specific skill set in that job. Yeah, maybe one or two slight things, but not the majority of their skills. That's a failed placement and should be reflected in the numbers.
 
2013-11-02 09:52:05 AM  

kwame: Fark_Guy_Rob: I think it's pretty disgusting...but it apparently is just par-for-the-course.

It is not. I'm sincerely sorry if you and your sister had that experience, but having just finished a national conference with over 3,000 advisors representing hundreds of institutions, I can promise you that a student's financial welfare is incredibly important to people in this field. They struggle with the expectation that they should predict student eligibility for a job and how much that student will make when it's impossible to predict.


Didn't take statistics I see.
 
2013-11-02 11:55:42 AM  

I sound fat: rugman11: kwame: mcreadyblue: what_now: For Profit colleges should not receive a dime of tax payer subsidized financial aid. Sure, some of these are legitimate apprenticeship programs, but the fast majority are scams

Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?

I'm not sure for-profit universities are equivalent to private schools.

Most of the big privates schools operate as non-profit institutions, like Harvard or Yale, as opposed to for-profit universities.

Again... nope, harvard doesent make a profit at all, do they?  they just accumulate wealth.  Somehow.

/ harvard is really good about endowment stuff and financial aid and such, but to call them non profit is a joke.


You can argue with whether they should be doing more with their endowment, but they are a non-profit institution, in that they don't have shareholders nor do they pay dividends.

The bigger point was that private elementary and secondary schools are more akin to private universities than to for-profit colleges.  They operate on prestige and reputation rather than just getting butts in the seats so they can suck off the government aid teat.
 
2013-11-02 12:00:19 PM  

ajgeek: That's for the student to decide. Are they using their skills at Intel? Or is the degree all Intel was looking for? Anecdotally, I've seen numerous English majors who've confessed about their jobs here that say they don't work in English, but their degree landed them where they are.


This is why I say that it's incredibly difficult to produce job placement numbers. In order to determine "success" with a degree, a school would have to interview every single graduate.  That's a ridiculous proposition.

StoPPeRmobile: Didn't take statistics I see.


I did, but I don't know what point you think you're making.  Show me how an academic advisor can predict a student's eligibility for a position and the salary he will make.  If you can create a reliable system for that, I will make you a very, very rich man.

Providing students with a salary range and a percentage of graduates who entered the field in question cannot predict whether that individual will be successful.
 
2013-11-02 09:44:50 PM  

mcreadyblue: Why are state run elementary schools so bad and private elementary schools so good, but at the college level it's the opposite?


Plenty of private colleges and universities are great, such as Harvard.  It's the ones that are run in such a way as to extract maximum profit from students while putting as little resources as possible into education that suck rocks.
 
2013-11-02 09:49:24 PM  

kwame: As for field of study, that's another can of worms. Is the English graduate of ours who works for Intel a placement failure?


Are they making use of writing skills, by any chance?  A lot of arts graduates will take unglamorous, non-artsy jobs when it comes time to pay off the college loans, but that doesn't mean the skills aren't being used.
 
Displayed 40 of 40 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report