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(Nature)   Without drastic action, population growth and urbanization will outpace waste reduction. Sh*t just got real   (nature.com) divider line 82
    More: Interesting, Organisation for Economic Co-operation, urban population, waste reduction, declining populations, growing regions, urbanizations, Kawasaki, world cities  
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2383 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Oct 2013 at 12:53 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-31 11:53:58 AM
That's what the FEMA Camps are for.
 
2013-10-31 12:08:03 PM
Wait 'til it hits the fan.
 
2013-10-31 12:27:24 PM
OH LOOK!
This fake problem again!

/didnt penn and teller refute this on Bullshiat!
 
2013-10-31 12:29:35 PM
Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".
 
2013-10-31 12:46:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercialization
Plus, we already have a trivial solution, too bad that natural gas prices have fallen because of fraking,

Hell, build these in the big cities:
1) generate power
2) reduce the environmental cost of shipping the trash to dumps
3) reduce the amount of waste in landfills
4) reduce the air pollution from all the trucks moving trash

Chicago could easily site one of these at the old coal power station on cermak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisk_Generating_Station
The infrastructure is already in place for everything but the front end.
Hell, the plant was only shutdown in 2012, because NG fracking ....
 
2013-10-31 12:55:54 PM
Thomas Malthus ?
Thomas R. Malthus to the white courtesy phone.
 
2013-10-31 12:56:55 PM
Obvious tag too busy?
 
2013-10-31 12:57:13 PM
Malthusian economics.
 
2013-10-31 12:58:03 PM
 
2013-10-31 12:59:13 PM
Time to shut. down. everything.
 
2013-10-31 12:59:32 PM
I will laugh off this problem while watching "Ow My Balls!"
 
2013-10-31 12:59:38 PM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-10-31 12:59:47 PM

namatad: OH LOOK!
This fake problem again!

/didnt penn and teller refute this on Bullshiat!


Yeah, every few months since 1965 someone's been saying some variant of it.  And every "we're doomed" prediction has failed to materialize.
 
2013-10-31 01:00:33 PM
Don't worry, these guys say we have plenty of landfill space!

home.comcast.net
 
2013-10-31 01:00:56 PM
Life....finds a way.
 
2013-10-31 01:01:24 PM

JohnAnnArbor: namatad: OH LOOK!
This fake problem again!

/didnt penn and teller refute this on Bullshiat!

Yeah, every few months since 1965 someone's been saying some variant of it.  And every "we're doomed" prediction has failed to materialize.


I should have read the thread, but at least I gave a picture. :)
 
2013-10-31 01:02:13 PM
i.imgur.com
 
2013-10-31 01:02:48 PM
If I remember my Captain Planet, the answer is (c): move to another planet.
 
2013-10-31 01:05:30 PM
I will be a lot more successful at life, if I don't think about this
 
2013-10-31 01:06:22 PM

namatad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercialization
Plus, we already have a trivial solution, too bad that natural gas prices have fallen because of fraking,

Hell, build these in the big cities:
1) generate power
2) reduce the environmental cost of shipping the trash to dumps
3) reduce the amount of waste in landfills
4) reduce the air pollution from all the trucks moving trash

Chicago could easily site one of these at the old coal power station on cermak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisk_Generating_Station
The infrastructure is already in place for everything but the front end.
Hell, the plant was only shutdown in 2012, because NG fracking ....


Our county wanted to do this and figured out they could even purchase trash from surrounding areas and still make money selling the power. The EPA stepped on their plans very early in the process, even though it passed initial environmental impact studies. This may work in some areas, but apparently getting the required support for many places in the U.S. have a lot of tall hurdles to overcome.
 
2013-10-31 01:07:09 PM

kittyhas1000legs: If I remember my Captain Planet, the answer is (c): move to another planet.


I need five teenagers to be trusted with literally the power of the planet. The only conditions are you have to be ethnically diverse and be occasionally willing to summon a god with a mullet.
 
2013-10-31 01:07:15 PM

namatad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercialization
Plus, we already have a trivial solution, too bad that natural gas prices have fallen because of fraking,

Hell, build these in the big cities:
1) generate power
2) reduce the environmental cost of shipping the trash to dumps
3) reduce the amount of waste in landfills
4) reduce the air pollution from all the trucks moving trash

Chicago could easily site one of these at the old coal power station on cermak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisk_Generating_Station
The infrastructure is already in place for everything but the front end.
Hell, the plant was only shutdown in 2012, because NG fracking ....


Came here to say this...
 
2013-10-31 01:08:52 PM

dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".


yes. this has ALWAYS been the case.
We have ALWAYS had resource problems.
Ran out of trees to burn, so we burned coal.
Ran out of easy to access coal, so we dug deep mines and removed mountain tops.
Coal got to be too dirty, oh look oil and NG and uranium and wind and hydro and

Ran out of whale oil, oh look OIL.
Ran out of oil, oh look deep sea drilling and fraking.
Ran out of clean air and clean water, oh look EPA.

This cycle has repeated FOREVER and always will.
I imagine that there were people complaining about the lead smelting 2000 years ago.

Ran out of dump space (not really), oh look waste reduction.
Dumps are polluting the ground water! oh look better regulation, testing and what not.

The list is infinite.

READ
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Resource-Julian-Lincoln-Simon/dp/0691 00 3815
to see the never ending list of people worrying about running out and the reality that happens instead.
 
2013-10-31 01:10:56 PM
The big issue of the next 50 years will be population DECREASE in all the developed nations.  Japan is leading the way, but there are a ton of countries right behind them.  People just aren't having as many kids.
 
2013-10-31 01:13:01 PM
I chuckle when they start off with "YOUR GARBAGE" on "YOUR CURB" then cite several problem cities in Asia.  Are those people somehow getting MY garbage?  If so, I'm gonna jam myself in a Rubbermaid can so I can see the Great Wall.
 
2013-10-31 01:14:32 PM
Oh, yeah, population is growing like a beanstalk, we need a giant killer...

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-10-31 01:15:18 PM

rkiller1: I chuckle when they start off with "YOUR GARBAGE" on "YOUR CURB" then cite several problem cities in Asia.  Are those people somehow getting MY garbage?  If so, I'm gonna jam myself in a Rubbermaid can so I can see the Great Wall.


China does get our trash. To make it more economically viable, all those cargo ships coming over with Chinese goods cannot go home empty handed. It would be a giant waste of fuel, so they stuff a lot of the containers with recyclable material.
 
2013-10-31 01:18:21 PM
Solution?  Soylent Garbage.
 
2013-10-31 01:18:48 PM
"Oh SAHNAP! Shiat just got, like, real, dawg." Alarmist, self-serving clowns.

Here, read this and feel better:

http://web.williams.edu/HistSci/curriculum/101/garbage.html
 
2013-10-31 01:19:18 PM
DNRTFA
DNRTFT

Bollocks.

The phrase 'drastic change' means central planning and redistribution of wealth.

Always means that.
 
2013-10-31 01:20:29 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The big issue of the next 50 years will be population DECREASE in all the developed nations.  Japan is leading the way, but there are a ton of countries right behind them.  People just aren't having as many kids.


I don't know where you're living brother, but where I am people seem to not be able to stop procreating. Most parents around here have, on the average, 3 kids. Many have more.

Jesus jumping CHRIST, enough with the farking kids people!!!
 
2013-10-31 01:20:58 PM

pkellmey: namatad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification_commercialization
Plus, we already have a trivial solution, too bad that natural gas prices have fallen because of fraking,

Hell, build these in the big cities:
1) generate power
2) reduce the environmental cost of shipping the trash to dumps
3) reduce the amount of waste in landfills
4) reduce the air pollution from all the trucks moving trash

Chicago could easily site one of these at the old coal power station on cermak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisk_Generating_Station
The infrastructure is already in place for everything but the front end.
Hell, the plant was only shutdown in 2012, because NG fracking ....

Our county wanted to do this and figured out they could even purchase trash from surrounding areas and still make money selling the power. The EPA stepped on their plans very early in the process, even though it passed initial environmental impact studies. This may work in some areas, but apparently getting the required support for many places in the U.S. have a lot of tall hurdles to overcome.


I was reading about the Georgia Tire power plant project a few months ago. People kept trying to regulate it as an incinerator. NO it isnt. Forget about trying to explain to them that the plant operated at a negative pressure and would generate little to no pollution.

I wonder if and when we might get back to building these, esp given how cheap NG currently is.
My guess is that big asian cities in Korea or Japan will build and operate these plants long before the US.

HELL, they are putting one on the Gerald Ford? For solid waste disposal? HOW COOL IS THAT?!
 
2013-10-31 01:22:02 PM

WelldeadLink: Oh, yeah, population is growing like a beanstalk, we need a giant killer...

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x266]


your chart is showing it more than doubled in just 45 years
 
2013-10-31 01:23:02 PM
IIRC, when I was a kid, the huge amount of waste generated in the USA in a year was visualized as something like a landfill a couple miles on each side being filled 50 feet deep. Then the environmentalists realized the prospect of a landfill like that somewhere in the US wasn't scary enough.
 
2013-10-31 01:23:06 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: rkiller1: I chuckle when they start off with "YOUR GARBAGE" on "YOUR CURB" then cite several problem cities in Asia.  Are those people somehow getting MY garbage?  If so, I'm gonna jam myself in a Rubbermaid can so I can see the Great Wall.

China does get our trash. To make it more economically viable, all those cargo ships coming over with Chinese goods cannot go home empty handed. It would be a giant waste of fuel, so they stuff a lot of the containers with recyclable material.


PAPER - my understanding is that most of our recyclable paper gets shipped to them for recycling.
Must be nice having little to no regulation.


WelldeadLink: Oh, yeah, population is growing like a beanstalk, we need a giant killer...

[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x266]


Can I assume that you are being sarcastic? LOL
Because well that graph shows that there is no population problem.
:D
 
2013-10-31 01:24:12 PM

dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".


Yup, we've always had 7 billion people on earth generating solid refuse and industrial waste at the rate at which it's currently being generated. Always.
 
2013-10-31 01:29:05 PM

namatad: READ
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Resource-Julian-Lincoln-Simon/dp/0691 00 3815
to see the never ending list of people worrying about running out and the reality that happens instead.


It only takes one running out of a billion problems for the shiat to hit the fan.
 
2013-10-31 01:30:59 PM

robhidalgo: dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".

Yup, we've always had 7 billion people on earth generating solid refuse and industrial waste at the rate at which it's currently being generated. Always.


hahaha hahahah ahahah hahahaahah
That is so funny how you intentionally misrepresented what was meant by his posting.

Yes you are correct. OUR population and resource problems are COMPLETELY different than at any point in human history.  We should completely ignore history and how solutions came to bear whenever these types of problems occurred.

/time for everyone to move back to the farm and a simpler way of life. and by everyone, we mean kill 6.5 billion and those that are left ...
 
2013-10-31 01:31:47 PM

SwiftFox: IIRC, when I was a kid, the huge amount of waste generated in the USA in a year was visualized as something like a landfill a couple miles on each side being filled 50 feet deep. Then the environmentalists realized the prospect of a landfill like that somewhere in the US wasn't scary enough.


Many areas make grass lots on top of full containment areas and then place golf courses or playgrounds there. From some of the pictures I've seen, the new green space is better than anything else they were using the surrounding area for.
 
2013-10-31 01:32:16 PM

namatad: PAPER - my understanding is that most of our recyclable paper gets shipped to them for recycling.
Must be nice having little to no regulation.


They increased other shipments as well, its what is driving costs up on stuff
 
2013-10-31 01:32:16 PM

DarkSoulNoHope: Don't worry, these guys say we have plenty of landfill space!

[home.comcast.net image 482x365]


Oh for fark's sake... they did an episode to say recycling is for losers? Sometimes their show has good points. Sometimes they're questionable. People are pretty stupid if they take every episode of Bullshiat as authoritative.

namatad: dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".

yes. this has ALWAYS been the case.
We have ALWAYS had resource problems.
Ran out of trees to burn, so we burned coal.
Ran out of easy to access coal, so we dug deep mines and removed mountain tops.
Coal got to be too dirty, oh look oil and NG and uranium and wind and hydro and

Ran out of whale oil, oh look OIL.
Ran out of oil, oh look deep sea drilling and fraking.
Ran out of clean air and clean water, oh look EPA.

This cycle has repeated FOREVER and always will.
I imagine that there were people complaining about the lead smelting 2000 years ago.

Ran out of dump space (not really), oh look waste reduction.
Dumps are polluting the ground water! oh look better regulation, testing and what not.

The list is infinite.


Oh, so we and the planet are doing just fine? Bullshiat. We're warming the planet, causing massive levels of pollution, and humans have kicked off a mass extinction event by generally not giving a flying fark how many species we destroy. Cut down the rainforests, drain the swamps, overuse the land so that massive areas are converted from fertile land to dried up, leached out scrub lands (humans have been doing the latter for thousands of years... the fertile crescent really was fertile once). It's all good, right? The land's only purpose is for us to use.
 
2013-10-31 01:33:55 PM

namatad: OH LOOK!
This fake problem again!

/didnt penn and teller refute this on Bullshiat!


 Yeah, I would take a lot of what Penn and Teller say with a huge grain of salt.  They have a serious slant and are very selective with some of their facts.  Their number one objective is to stir up controversy and get viewers.
 
2013-10-31 01:33:59 PM

robhidalgo: dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".

Yup, we've always had 7 billion people on earth generating solid refuse and industrial waste at the rate at which it's currently being generated. Always.


That's a nice stab at being willfully obtuse.
 
2013-10-31 01:36:24 PM
namatad
/time for everyone to move back to the farm and a simpler way of life. and by everyone, we mean kill 6.5 billion and those that are left ...

Because there's no middle ground between "kill most of the humans on the planet and move to the countryside" and "pretend everything's fine".
 
2013-10-31 01:36:41 PM

namatad: dittybopper: Hasn't this always, and I mean *ALWAYS* been the case?  We seem to be adept at finding solutions to this "problem".

yes. this has ALWAYS been the case.
We have ALWAYS had resource problems.
Ran out of trees to burn, so we burned coal.
Ran out of easy to access coal, so we dug deep mines and removed mountain tops.
Coal got to be too dirty, oh look oil and NG and uranium and wind and hydro and

Ran out of whale oil, oh look OIL.
Ran out of oil, oh look deep sea drilling and fraking.
Ran out of clean air and clean water, oh look EPA.

This cycle has repeated FOREVER and always will.
I imagine that there were people complaining about the lead smelting 2000 years ago.

Ran out of dump space (not really), oh look waste reduction.
Dumps are polluting the ground water! oh look better regulation, testing and what not.

The list is infinite.

READ
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Resource-Julian-Lincoln-Simon/dp/0691 00 3815
to see the never ending list of people worrying about running out and the reality that happens instead.



Except that the worrying usually helps spur the progress.  It doesn't happen by magic.
 
2013-10-31 01:43:24 PM

patrick767: DarkSoulNoHope: Don't worry, these guys say we have plenty of landfill space!

[home.comcast.net image 482x365]

Oh for fark's sake... they did an episode to say recycling is for losers? Sometimes their show has good points. Sometimes they're questionable. People are pretty stupid if they take every episode of Bullshiat as authoritative.


Yeah, what especially floored me is that they showed a lady "willing" to recycle "excessively" (in their opinion; plus it's on camera so I am sure she's getting a little money for it from P&T) by having her go from colored can to colored can putting away various types of recyclable trash. There are some good things about P&T's show but there are things like this that just make me say, "NOPE"!
 
2013-10-31 01:44:02 PM

iaazathot: namatad: OH LOOK!
This fake problem again!

/didnt penn and teller refute this on Bullshiat!

 Yeah, I would take a lot of what Penn and Teller say with a huge grain of salt.  They have a serious slant and are very selective with some of their facts.  Their number one objective is to stir up controversy and get viewers.


Of course. But they did address some serious questions.
If recycling produces MORE greenhouse gases than dumping, than it is important to include that into the equation. Otherwise it isnt science but belief.

I take everything with a grain of salt. But P&T did ask a ton of pretty basic questions which can be answered pretty trivially with follow up research.  For example, I just looked at the Illinois landfill numbers. 23 years of landfill left with no changes. So we should either PANIC or expect that changes will occur as the market drives them. At some point increased landfill costs will lead to a trash tax, new landfills, new disposal, new recycling, or all of the above.

I already directly pay for my trash disposal. I live in a large condo building and we pay directly to dispose of our trash. If costs increase, we increase our condo dues or decrease our trash, or both.  I am pretty sure that this is true for most people, either directly or indirectly.

In the end, I have been reading Doom and Gloom since the early 70s (when I started reading).
We were running out of everything. And yet, here we are.

Yes, we are farking up the oceans. Tragedy of the commons. Yes we are farking up some water tables fraking, tragedy of the Cheney Loophole. Sooner or later we will have to address all of these issues. 
But the idea that the world is ending? meh. I have moved on.
 
2013-10-31 01:46:03 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The big issue of the next 50 years will be population DECREASE in all the developed nations.  Japan is leading the way, but there are a ton of countries right behind them.  People just aren't having as many kids.


Where, pray tell, is this population explosion happening Mr. Vague Anecdotal Man?

img.fark.net
 
2013-10-31 01:49:55 PM

patrick767: namatad
/time for everyone to move back to the farm and a simpler way of life. and by everyone, we mean kill 6.5 billion and those that are left ...

Because there's no middle ground between "kill most of the humans on the planet and move to the countryside" and "pretend everything's fine".


LOL


iaazathot: Except that the worrying usually helps spur the progress.  It doesn't happen by magic.


I was thinking about EXACTLY this while getting a refill on my tea. And you are exactly correct.
The ANTI-GMO people are forcing a number of issues, forcing more research, forcing people to look at stuff, etc, etc, etc. Even if they are completely wrong (which they are not), by forcing the issue they are helping in many ways.

The batshiat crazy anti-vaccine people have "helped" in a couple of ways: they have been using their children as part of a larger science experiment which we could NOT have done as part of real experiment. That whole "dont experiment on children" ethics thingy. We have seen the results, measles epidemics in England, kids dying from OLD diseases, more research to further confirm that there is no correlation between vaccines and autism, let alone a casual effect.

So yes, the crazy people bring attention to issues.

But I am no longer worried about the issues. There are enough crazy people out there. I can spend my time thinking about solutions and other fun things.
 
2013-10-31 01:51:42 PM

DarkSoulNoHope: patrick767: DarkSoulNoHope: Don't worry, these guys say we have plenty of landfill space!

[home.comcast.net image 482x365]

Oh for fark's sake... they did an episode to say recycling is for losers? Sometimes their show has good points. Sometimes they're questionable. People are pretty stupid if they take every episode of Bullshiat as authoritative.

Yeah, what especially floored me is that they showed a lady "willing" to recycle "excessively" (in their opinion; plus it's on camera so I am sure she's getting a little money for it from P&T) by having her go from colored can to colored can putting away various types of recyclable trash. There are some good things about P&T's show but there are things like this that just make me say, "NOPE"!


I loved the bottled water experiment that they did, all with water straight from the hose out back.
Marketing is amazing.
 
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