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(ESPN)   Your 2013 MLB Gold Glove winners. Statistics to the left. Arguments to the right   (espn.go.com) divider line 66
    More: Interesting, Yadier Molina, Major League Baseball, Gold glove, Manny Machado, Nick Markakis, statistics, Carlos Gomez, Nolan Arenado  
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1443 clicks; posted to Sports » on 30 Oct 2013 at 6:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-30 06:59:15 AM  
Lol Adam jones and Brandon Philips.
 
2013-10-30 06:59:19 AM  
Something's wrong here. Why did Derek Jeter not win the AL Shortstop Gold Glove? Who is this J.J. Hardy person? Do these people not watch the games? Jeter's featured in a lot of the advertisements.
 
2013-10-30 07:11:24 AM  

thecpt: Lol Adam jones and Brandon Philips.


Once you get a reputation has a solid fielder, you're home free. According to that stat, Jones' defense actually cost his team a few runs.
 
2013-10-30 07:14:08 AM  
Fuxza Fielding Bible?
 
2013-10-30 07:58:24 AM  
Hate to sound like a homer, but Darwin Barney had better fielding stats than Philips. They look at the offensive numbers which I think is dumb. Hell I'd pick Jedd Gyorko over Philips even based on offensive numbers.
 
2013-10-30 08:21:48 AM  
Hosmer as the AL gold glove at 1B is ridiculous. Complete stupidity. No good argument can be made for it.
 
2013-10-30 08:22:12 AM  
Both of these men won gold gloves
 
2013-10-30 08:22:31 AM  
No Cutch? Sorry, but that's a farce.
 
2013-10-30 08:24:12 AM  

Raktastic: Hate to sound like a homer, but Darwin Barney had better fielding stats than Philips. They look at the offensive numbers which I think is dumb. Hell I'd pick Jedd Gyorko over Philips even based on offensive numbers.


This.  Darwin Barney should be the selection in my opinion.
 
2013-10-30 08:24:51 AM  

Publikwerks: Both of these men won gold gloves


Stupid size restrictions:
l2.yimg.com
 
2013-10-30 08:25:47 AM  

pgh9fan: No Cutch? Sorry, but that's a farce.


Gomez was MUCH better in CF than he was.
 
2013-10-30 08:30:31 AM  
Also, ADAM JONES???  That's a laugh.
 
2013-10-30 08:36:04 AM  
I like Brandon Phillips, but he was not the best fielding second baseman in the National League this year.  He's flashy and fun to watch, but had too many errors this season.
 
2013-10-30 08:36:13 AM  

Palmer Eldritch: Something's wrong here. Why did Derek Jeter not win the AL Shortstop Gold Glove? Who is this J.J. Hardy person? Do these people not watch the games? Jeter's featured in a lot of the advertisements.


Came here for Jeter-biatching, leaving satisfied.
 
2013-10-30 08:37:08 AM  

WinoRhino: Hosmer as the AL gold glove at 1B is ridiculous. Complete stupidity. No good argument can be made for it.




As a Royals fan I would call him a sufficient first baseman. Golden Glover? I wouldn't have guessed that. Then again I don't know how he stacks up to other first basemen defensively.
Gordon is a good pick for LF as is Perez.
 
2013-10-30 08:40:39 AM  
Good for Shane Victorino.
 
2013-10-30 08:43:12 AM  

WinoRhino: Also, ADAM JONES???  That's a laugh.


That's Pacman Jones
 
2013-10-30 08:50:34 AM  
Why do AL and NL have separate fielding awards?

Also, there should be lulzglove award and it should be a little statue of Ibanez throwing the ball into the ground.
 
2013-10-30 09:08:48 AM  

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Why do AL and NL have separate fielding awards?


Because the NL fielders have 1 fewer hitter to worry about?
 
2013-10-30 09:14:06 AM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: As a Royals fan I would call him a sufficient first baseman. Golden Glover? I wouldn't have guessed that. Then again I don't know how he stacks up to other first basemen defensively.


"Sufficient" is probably a great word for it. Looking strictly at fielding metrics like DRS and UZR, he ranks  in the middle of the pack. He is completely average.

Mid_mo_mad_man: Gordon is a good pick for LF as is Perez.


Yeah-- I can get on board with those.
 
2013-10-30 09:32:48 AM  
Congratulations Carlos Gomez.  He's got this Brewer fan spoiled rotten.  It's to the point now where I am shocked when he doesn't make the catch.  Wonder if Joey Votto had a vote.
 
2013-10-30 09:33:39 AM  

WinoRhino: Mid_mo_mad_man: As a Royals fan I would call him a sufficient first baseman. Golden Glover? I wouldn't have guessed that. Then again I don't know how he stacks up to other first basemen defensively.

"Sufficient" is probably a great word for it. Looking strictly at fielding metrics like DRS and UZR, he ranks  in the middle of the pack.
He is completely average.

I'm a true blue Royals homer and just like you I'm surpised by the pick


Mid_mo_mad_man: Gordon is a good pick for LF as is Perez.

Yeah-- I can get on board with those.




Perez is a dang fine catcher. A superstar in the making.
 
2013-10-30 09:34:50 AM  

JosephFinn: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Why do AL and NL have separate fielding awards?

Because the NL fielders have 1 fewer hitter to worry about?


Still got to get the put out on that feeble dribbler.  Separate batting and pitching awards, I understand, but both leagues play on a standardized infield.  Even the variations of outfield dimensions and turf conditions are much larger from ballpark to ballpark than from league to league.

In fact, the best fielder by position in each park each year might be more interesting.
 
2013-10-30 09:38:56 AM  
Juan Lagares was farking robbed.
 
2013-10-30 09:40:35 AM  
I'm surprised Maddox didn't win it again this year.
 
2013-10-30 09:50:36 AM  

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Why do AL and NL have separate fielding awards?


The "fielding bible" awards only give out one award for each position regardless of league. Here are those results:

C - Yadier Molina, Cardinals
1B - Paul Goldschmidt, Diamondbacks
2B - Dustin Pedroia, Red Sox
3B - Manny Machado, Orioles
SS - Andrelton Simmons, Braves
LF - Alex Gordon, Royals
CF - Carlos Gomez, Brewers
RF - Gerardo Parra, Diamondbacks
P - R.A. Dickey, Blue Jays
 
2013-10-30 10:24:50 AM  

WinoRhino: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Why do AL and NL have separate fielding awards?

The "fielding bible" awards only give out one award for each position regardless of league. Here are those results:

C - Yadier Molina, Cardinals
1B - Paul Goldschmidt, Diamondbacks
2B - Dustin Pedroia, Red Sox
3B - Manny Machado, Orioles
SS - Andrelton Simmons, Braves
LF - Alex Gordon, Royals
CF - Carlos Gomez, Brewers
RF - Gerardo Parra, Diamondbacks
P - R.A. Dickey, Blue Jays


As I understand it, the Fielding Bible Awards are kind of like the Gold Gloves, except that the voters are people who know what the fark they're talking about, like Joe Posnanski, Bill James and Peter Gammons, right?

Looks like every single one of the FB Award winners also won a GG, so that speaks pretty well of the GG voters this year.
 
2013-10-30 10:28:15 AM  
Shane Victorino is a fine right fielder, but Josh Reddick is the best fielding right fielder in baseball. Didn't hit worth a lick this season, with a bad wrist, but he is money in the field. And you don't dare run on his arm. He was worthy of a Gold Glove.
 
2013-10-30 10:32:01 AM  
Serious question, because I haven't followed much baseball outside of the White Sox the past few years (I'm dying inside): does RA Dickey deserve the award over Buehrle? I've only really watched him in a handful of times so I don't have as much exposure to him as I did to Buehrle, who was on the Sox for a decade. I kind of thought once Buehrle had his first GG he had that kind of Maddux shoe-in thing for the rest of his career, but I guess he's never really been a big-name media guy which doesn't help his case in this kind of voting.

Mainly, just seeing how people compare Buehrle and Dickey as far as fielding ability.
 
2013-10-30 10:35:08 AM  
Aww, I wanted to make the first Jeter comment.

Still my favorite player, but the lulz would've been outstanding if he was even genuinely in the conversation this year. He only played 17 games this year (and DHed 4 of them) and still managed to get 2 errors in that short time.
 
2013-10-30 10:36:08 AM  
The leaders in DRS, aka the 'rightful winners (Gold Glovers in bold):

AMERICAN LEAGUE
P: R.A. Dickey, Toronto (7)
C: Salvador Perez, Kansas City (11)
1B: Mike Napoli, Boston (10)
2B: Dustin Pedroia, Boston (15)
3B: Manny Machado, Baltimore (35)
SS: Pedro Florimon, Minnesota (12)
LF: Alex Gordon, Kansas City (16)
CF: Lorenzo Cain, Kansas City (17)
RF: Shane Victorino, Boston (24)

NATIONAL LEAGUE
P: Patrick Corbin, Arizona (8)
C: Wellington Castillo, Chicago (19)
1B: Anthony Rizzo, Chicago (16)
2B: Mark Ellis, Los Angeles (12)
3B: Nolan Arenado, Colorado (30)
SS: Andrelton Simmons, Atlanta (41)
LF: Starling Marte, Pittsburgh (20)
CF: Carlos Gomez, Milwaukee (38)
RF: Gerardo Parra, Arizona (36)
 
2013-10-30 10:45:37 AM  

Super Chronic: Looks like every single one of the FB Award winners also won a GG, so that speaks pretty well of the GG voters this year.


The reason for that might be that, starting this year, the Gold Glove award actually included a sabermetric component in the decision process.  Shocking!

But you still get people like Adam Jones getting a gold glove when he was one of the the WORST center fielders in the American League.
 
2013-10-30 10:54:28 AM  

Raktastic: Hate to sound like a homer, but Darwin Barney had better fielding stats than Philips. They look at the offensive numbers which I think is dumb. Hell I'd pick Jedd Gyorko over Philips even based on offensive numbers.


You do sound like a homer. Barney had a higher fielding % by .006 and 5 less errors. Those were the only defensive stats he had that were better.

BP had 112 more defensive chances than Barny.
 
2013-10-30 11:00:11 AM  

WinoRhino: The reason for that might be that, starting this year, the Gold Glove award actually included a sabermetric component in the decision process. Shocking!


Yup.  My understanding is that all the voters were given the results of five sabermetric systems as part of their information, and that the average score from those five systems was worth something like 30%.

But you still get people like Adam Jones getting a gold glove when he was one of the the WORST center fielders in the American League.

There's still the usual Derek Jeter bias where Gold Glove voters disproportionately err towards good hitters.  Lorenzo Cain is an awesome defender with a AAA bat.  Adam Jones smacks dingers.  Therefore the 70% from the voters goes towards Jones.

Jones is also well-known and well-liked, which doesn't hurt.

That all set, this set of 18 winners is less facepalm-worthy than the average Gold glove awardee list.  Baby steps.
 
2013-10-30 11:08:45 AM  

DaintySavage: You do sound like a homer. Barney had a higher fielding % by .006 and 5 less errors. Those were the only defensive stats he had that were better.

BP had 112 more defensive chances than Barny.


Yeahhhh... about that....
If you look at how many of those extra chances resulted in outs, and how many runs each actually saved, Barney is much better.

Barney DRS:  11
Phillips DRS:    1

Barney also beats Phillips by 7 entire points in UZR.

You point out that Barney had a better fielding percentage, but then bring up defensive chances.  Chances are used when determining fielding percentage, aren't they? So what you're saying is the larger the sample size, the better Barney will end up looking.
 
2013-10-30 11:20:35 AM  

DaintySavage: Raktastic: Hate to sound like a homer, but Darwin Barney had better fielding stats than Philips. They look at the offensive numbers which I think is dumb. Hell I'd pick Jedd Gyorko over Philips even based on offensive numbers.

You do sound like a homer. Barney had a higher fielding % by .006 and 5 less errors. Those were the only defensive stats he had that were better.  BP had 112 more defensive chances than Barny.


1) BP largely had more chances because he played more often (1347 innings at 2B vs. 1237 for Barney).  They also stand behind different pitching staffs, and you need to consider how many ground balls they actually see.  Cincy led the NL in strikeouts, with 1296 to Chicago's 1184, for example.  However, they coax a slightly greater percentage of grounders (44.1%) than Chicago does (42.4%) on batted balls.  Etc.
2) Fielding percentage and errors not worth much, because you can only be scored with an error on a ball that you reach.  Derek Jeter often has a high F%, but he's a terrible defender because he lets everything that isn't hit directly into his lap roll into the outfield.  Obviously, if a fielder boots a soft grounder hit right at him, that's a problem, but most errors aren't of this kind.  They're unreliable overall, and better off ignored unless you're reviewing them case-by-case.  (UZR and DRS consider things like hit location.)
3) By UZR or DRS, Barney was better.  They both grade out well in terms of range and glovework, but Barney turns the double play better, given the number of opportunities he had to do so, and where the balls were hit.

All defensive metrics are pretty rough, but in 2013 there's something of a consensus that Barney did more for the Cubs than Phillips did for the Reds.
 
2013-10-30 11:34:07 AM  

Gosling: The leaders in DRS, aka the 'rightful winners (Gold Glovers in bold):

AMERICAN LEAGUE
P: R.A. Dickey, Toronto (7)
C: Salvador Perez, Kansas City (11)
1B: Mike Napoli, Boston (10)
2B: Dustin Pedroia, Boston (15)
3B: Manny Machado, Baltimore (35)
SS: Pedro Florimon, Minnesota (12)
LF: Alex Gordon, Kansas City (16)
CF: Lorenzo Cain, Kansas City (17)
RF: Shane Victorino, Boston (24)

NATIONAL LEAGUE
P: Patrick Corbin, Arizona (8)
C: Wellington Castillo, Chicago (19)
1B: Anthony Rizzo, Chicago (16)
2B: Mark Ellis, Los Angeles (12)
3B: Nolan Arenado, Colorado (30)
SS: Andrelton Simmons, Atlanta (41)
LF: Starling Marte, Pittsburgh (20)
CF: Carlos Gomez, Milwaukee (38)
RF: Gerardo Parra, Arizona (36)


DRS is certainly not a perfect metric.  It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play.  I hate subjective metrics that try to pretend that they're super accurate.
 
2013-10-30 11:55:32 AM  
LF: Starling Marte, Pittsburgh (20)

Once again, the Gold Glove is given to someone else because they hit more home runs.
 
2013-10-30 12:04:27 PM  
It's a travesty that no one's mentioned Juan Lagares' name in this thread (or in the article).

Since they now give out LF, CF, and RF awards instead of just awards to the top three outfielders, Lagares is going to be behind Gomez.  But only because Gomez played more games (and because nobody likes the Mets).

Lagares:  24.4 UZR in 904 innings,   34.4 UZR/150.
Gomez:    24.4 UZR in 1242 innings, 27.2 UZR/150.

I'm fine with the guy not getting a GG since he played in 108 games, but Juan Lagares was the best defensive OF in the NL this season.
 
2013-10-30 12:18:22 PM  
It's always nice when I click on a thread and there's absolutely nothing for me to say.

With one exception:

meanmutton: It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play.


As opposed to errors, which has one scorer making individual value judgements on every play.  Better?
 
2013-10-30 12:48:56 PM  

meanmutton: DRS is certainly not a perfect metric. It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play. I hate subjective metrics that try to pretend that they're super accurate.


You must really, really hate nearly every defensive measurement widely used before 2005 or so.  Feel free to propose a solid alternative to DRS, then.

I don't think anyone thinks DRS is perfect.  I usually like to look at a few different systems to see if they line up for this reason.  Better yet, track a player over several years.

But it's a hell of a lot better than Gold Glove voting ever was.  Nearly all Gold Gloves in history were awarded based on metrics such as "Cut of Jib Like-ability".
 
2013-10-30 01:03:09 PM  

SlagginOff: Serious question, because I haven't followed much baseball outside of the White Sox the past few years (I'm dying inside): does RA Dickey deserve the award over Buehrle? I've only really watched him in a handful of times so I don't have as much exposure to him as I did to Buehrle, who was on the Sox for a decade. I kind of thought once Buehrle had his first GG he had that kind of Maddux shoe-in thing for the rest of his career, but I guess he's never really been a big-name media guy which doesn't help his case in this kind of voting.

Mainly, just seeing how people compare Buehrle and Dickey as far as fielding ability.


Having watched about 100 Jays games this year, Dickey's a very good fielding pitcher. He's a better athlete than you'd expect, and smart. I think the knuclker may help him, too, since it induces a lot of weak contact, which could give him more shots at infield flies and weak grounders than other pitchers. For what it's worth, DRS has his as the best fielding pitcher in the AL this year, with 7 runs saved. Buehrle's sixth, with four. Over the last four seasons, DRS has Buehrle as the best fielding pitcher in baseball, with 35 runs saved. Dickey's third, with 31.
 
2013-10-30 01:11:23 PM  
Gold glove for NL SS was the easiest vote in years, nobody else was even close.
 
2013-10-30 01:14:26 PM  

DeWayne Mann: It's always nice when I click on a thread and there's absolutely nothing for me to say.

With one exception:

meanmutton: It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play.

As opposed to errors, which has one scorer making individual value judgements on every play.  Better?


Oh, god no.  You should be ashamed and disgusted with yourself for even thinking someone might think that.
 
2013-10-30 01:15:56 PM  
Two things. 1) it's a joke that pitchers can win a gold glove award. 2) Josh Donaldson and Josh Reddick from the A's got screwed.
 
2013-10-30 01:16:01 PM  

chimp_ninja: meanmutton: DRS is certainly not a perfect metric. It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play. I hate subjective metrics that try to pretend that they're super accurate.

You must really, really hate nearly every defensive measurement widely used before 2005 or so.  Feel free to propose a solid alternative to DRS, then.

I don't think anyone thinks DRS is perfect.  I usually like to look at a few different systems to see if they line up for this reason.  Better yet, track a player over several years.

But it's a hell of a lot better than Gold Glove voting ever was.  Nearly all Gold Gloves in history were awarded based on metrics such as "Cut of Jib Like-ability".


Yes, yes I do.  I abhor defensive measurements in general.  The new ones are better than the "eyeball test" ones we used to have.  However, the false precision and pretense at objectivity annoy me.
 
2013-10-30 01:44:31 PM  

chimp_ninja: 1) BP largely had more chances because he played more often (1347 innings at 2B vs. 1237 for Barney).


If you average it out Barney has about the same if not more chances per inning (2.05) as compared to Phillips (1.88).
 
2013-10-30 02:02:22 PM  

meanmutton: DRS is certainly not a perfect metric. It's based entirely on multiple human scorers making individual value judgements on every play. I hate subjective metrics that try to pretend that they're super accurate.


Well, yeah, but it's one of the most accepted and there isn't another better one that accommodates all nine positions. Do DRS it is.
 
2013-10-30 02:06:36 PM  

keepitcherry: Two things. 1) it's a joke that pitchers can win a gold glove award. 2) Josh Donaldson and Josh Reddick from the A's got screwed.


Tell you what. You go throw someone a pitch as hard as you can, then have the guy you're throwing it to hit it right back at your head, and you try and catch it. Then come back and tell me why pitchers don't deserve Gold Gloves.
 
2013-10-30 02:13:35 PM  

keepitcherry: 1) it's a joke that pitchers can win a gold glove award.


Explain yourself.
 
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