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(Opposing Views)   Gun advocacy group insists that them raffling off the same gun that killed Travyon Martin was totally unintentional. Why were they doing it on the day that George Zimmerman's defense attorney was scheduled to speak, you ask? Just a coincidence   (opposingviews.com) divider line 277
    More: Unlikely, George Zimmerman, Mark O'Mara, advocacy group, Gun advocacy, Florida Today, Republican Liberty Caucus, handguns  
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2780 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Oct 2013 at 9:47 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



277 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-30 10:19:15 AM  

Frank N Stein: and the guy was being gay about it,


Seriously, dude?
 
2013-10-30 10:24:47 AM  

axeeugene: This of course is true of extremists on the other side, as well, but in my experience, those folks aren't taken very seriously by the public at large, so they're not as much of a threat to rationality as the nutters.



Oh really?  Tell that to gun owners in California and New York.
 
2013-10-30 10:44:56 AM  
axeeugene:

I think it's high time for left-leaning gun owners like myself and a few others to take a more active part in this debate...forget what I said earlier in this thread, because cooler heads have to prevail in this debate at some point. It's time to take back the goddamn asylum.

I agree. Just took the Concealed-Carry "training" course last weekend, and struggling with whether to apply for the permit. Want to have it,  but only if I don't feel like I need it. Thankfully, the instructor says the certificate doesn't expire.
 
2013-10-30 10:56:24 AM  

Adolf Oliver Nipples: I didn't say it was unintentional. But since it's not actually the same gun, why get upset about it? DNFTT.


I find the coupling of that gun and a bible, in relation to the Martin shooting, to be curious and disturbing statement. Since I am not a clinically insane racist teabagger, I am not sure what the precisely statement they are making is, but its definitely a distinct statement they are trying to make and none of the apparent options are anything more than deeply unsettling at best.
 
2013-10-30 11:12:48 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Gun nuts are a special kind of shiat. Same wink and nudge playbook employed by pussy racists.


Amen.

I do wish these patriots would get fired up about the destruction of the fourth amendment that started with Reagan and continues today. Sooner or later, I'd want them to shut up about that, too. :-)
 
2013-10-30 11:51:58 AM  
 Because they're absolutely giddy at the idea of a 17 year old kid being shot to death... So long as he's black that is.
 
2013-10-30 11:56:09 AM  

HypnozombieX: Because they're absolutely giddy at the idea of a 17 year old kid being shot to death... So long as he's black that is.


Trollin', trollin', trollin'
Though the streams are swollen
Keep them dogies trollin'
Rawhide!
 
2013-10-30 12:23:02 PM  
When gun and ammunition production is again meeting demand, someone calculated that a raffle or fundraiser that could raise just $10,000 could buy 50, $150/each, .22LR pistols, each with a $10 box of ammo.  Including tax.

This means giving 50 eligible poor households a gun and ammo.  With the gun stamped "not for resale or transfer, property of (whatever group)".  And since the average starting pay for a police officer is $40,000 a year in the US, for the same price, 200 households could protect themselves from violent criminals in the first year alone.

Talk about "taking a bite out of crime".

Of course, some households would not want a gun out of philosophical reasons, and others would not feel capable of keeping or using a gun properly.  But criminals wouldn't know which ones.
 
2013-10-30 02:12:18 PM  

udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.


Agreed, and the same is true for those pushing for more gun control. If you want to ban something, at least take 5 minutes to learn what the features you want to ban are and what they do. If you want to ban "that icky black thing" or whatever, you probably won't be taken seriously by anyone who does have any interest in guns.
 
2013-10-30 02:18:19 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Had Travyon killed Martin, he'd have gotten off on the same law and you racist pro-Zimmerman d-bags would be calling for a noose.


In all likelihood it would have barely made the news. There were several non-blacks killed by blacks around the same time that never got the media frenzy. I still don't understand why the trayvon case did get so much attention.
 
2013-10-30 02:21:28 PM  
Yes, because giving people guns makes them so much safer.

ginkor: When gun and ammunition production is again meeting demand, someone calculated that a raffle or fundraiser that could raise just $10,000 could buy 50, $150/each, .22LR pistols, each with a $10 box of ammo.  Including tax.

This means giving 50 eligible poor households a gun and ammo.  With the gun stamped "not for resale or transfer, property of (whatever group)".  And since the average starting pay for a police officer is $40,000 a year in the US, for the same price, 200 households could protect themselves from violent criminals in the first year alone.

Talk about "taking a bite out of crime".

Of course, some households would not want a gun out of philosophical reasons, and others would not feel capable of keeping or using a gun properly.  But criminals wouldn't know which ones.

 
2013-10-30 02:21:38 PM  

udhq: Doom MD: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.
Call of duty has caused more young people to get into guns than anything. To say guns are losing popularity is laughable.

There will always be a small contingent of heavily armed, single, angry conservative white men.

But I know probably a dozen men from the rural town where I grew up who gave up their guns in order to convince their gfs to get married or have kids.

That's how women drive a lot of this social change, and I don't think I know a single woman under the age of 25 who owns a gun.


Must depend on who you hang with. I know several, and I'm in a very liberal area and am fairly liberal myself. I also am fond of guns and think shooting is fun. Never had any desire to kill anyone and never really associated guns with killing.
 
2013-10-30 02:29:10 PM  

udhq: WhyKnot: udhq: Doom MD: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.
Call of duty has caused more young people to get into guns than anything. To say guns are losing popularity is laughable.

There will always be a small contingent of heavily armed, single, angry conservative white men.

But I know probably a dozen men from the rural town where I grew up who gave up their guns in order to convince their gfs to get married or have kids.

That's how women drive a lot of this social change, and I don't think I know a single woman under the age of 25 who owns a gun.

You know a bunch of weak men...why change for a women?

Why not teach them to shoot and not be scared of guns?

Meh, it's a choice to be made, your guns or your family.

I think it's not unreasonable for a woman to be able to choose whether she wants to live/have children with guns around. No matter how safe and smart you are about it, having a gun in your house does present some risk.


So does having a bathtub in your house, or a pool, or a hot tub, or kitchen appliances, or power tools, or cleaning supplies, or alcohol, or stairs, or...

Naturally anyone can choose whether to have any of these things in their house. Why single out guns?
 
2013-10-30 02:33:58 PM  

Mugato: WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.


Is it? Remember that members I the military are "the people" too, and I would bet that there is a disproportionately large number of pro-gun-rights folks in the military. Also notice the difficult we've ha eradicating ragtag groups of insurgents in the Middle East. An armed population is a credible threat.
 
2013-10-30 02:44:06 PM  

udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.

I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners ...

That's not the stance that you have taken and you know it. You go ahead and keep telling yourself that it is. But you need to remember, us thugs that keep that 2nd Amendment close to our hearts, are also the thugs that keep working and believing in the 1st also. You can try to rationalize that statement all you want too. But it always comes back to you.

Believe what you want, but historically, this had just not been the case.

Look at JFK, RFK, MLK, etc. The history of America is one of 1st amendment heroes being continually silenced by 2nd amendment heroes.


Are you farking nuts? You think the pro 2nd amendment groups consider those assassins heroes? Those bad guys are jackasses that help make things a pain for the responsible gun enthusiasts.
 
2013-10-30 03:21:57 PM  

James10952001: The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.

Is it? Remember that members I the military are "the people" too, and I would bet that there is a disproportionately large number of pro-gun-rights folks in the military. Also notice the difficult we've ha eradicating ragtag groups of insurgents in the Middle East. An armed population is a credible threat.


As I've pointed out before, our invasion of the Mideast is so completely different from our own people (a very small minority, in no matter what scenario) going against our own military and the American people as a whole is so ridiculously different that it's hilarious that's it's even an argument.
 
2013-10-30 04:00:36 PM  

axeeugene: I think it's ludicrous to suggest liberals don't love the Second Amendment.


The terms "liberal" and "conservative" aren't useful, because most people are "some of each", depending on the issue.  Articles like that one put everyone into the conservative or liberal box based entirely on one issue.  According to them, if you like guns, you are conservative, and if you don't, you are liberal.  Then they argue why liberals should like guns.  It isn't very logical, but hey, from Daily Kos, what do you expect?
 
2013-10-30 05:12:32 PM  

BravadoGT: WhyKnot: Outrage at that group, but totally okay to have Trayvon's mom testify about stand-your-ground laws on Capital Hill?

because that case had everything to do with stand your ground, right? Right?!?

Ah never mind...carry on Fark libs...ain't no hate party like a Fark lib party...

I'm sure she offered some valuable insight that Congress needed--especially about the "Stand Your Ground" law that played no actual part in her thug-son's early demise or the subsequent trial...


Agreed, Zimmerman stalked Trayvon.
 
2013-10-30 07:37:05 PM  
I really like guns.
 
2013-10-30 07:43:22 PM  

James10952001: I still don't understand why the trayvon case did get so much attention.


His name was Zimmerman. Sharpton thought he had a Jew "by the horns". Once he derped it up there was no turning it down.
 
2013-10-30 08:42:05 PM  

LoneWolf343: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe
 
2013-10-30 09:09:29 PM  

HypnozombieX: Because they're absolutely giddy at the idea of a 17 year old kid wannabe thug being shot to death...


FTFY
 
2013-10-30 09:12:11 PM  

LoneWolf343: LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.


um, isn't that sort of how our country came to be in the first place?
beyond that there are dozens if not hundreds of other historical examples from any number of countries and time periods, but what is probably far more salient is the fact that the simple presence of a population capable of effecting a regime change from within has quite proveably acted as a deterrent to both foreign and domestic government actions that likely would have resulted in a populations use of arms. which is kind of the point.
 
2013-10-30 09:15:06 PM  

James10952001: Must depend on who you hang with. I know several, and I'm in a very liberal area and am fairly liberal myself.


IIRC, women are the fastest-growing segment of the gun-buying public.  My wife was running her own reloading press by the time she was 7 years old.  Both of my daughters fired their first guns before they were three years old.
 
2013-10-30 09:23:03 PM  

machodonkeywrestler: Agreed, Zimmerman stalked Trayvon.


Right.  After all, a sedentary 29 year old desk jockey can easily run down a 17 year old athlete...Martin is dead today simply because HE decided to confront Zimmerman, and took it so far that a jury felt that Zimmerman was reasonable in fearing for his life.
 
2013-10-30 09:32:28 PM  

James10952001: Remember that members I the military are "the people" too, and I would bet that there is a disproportionately large number of pro-gun-rights folks in the military.


EXTRA this.  Back in the '90s, when the "29 Palms" survey came to light, I asked a guy I knew, a Military Academy graduate, the question in question, which was something along the lines of "If ordered to, would you fire on US Citizens for refusing to surrender their firearms?"  His response was "Not only no, but HELL NO, and I'd shoot the Son of a biatch that gave me such an illegal order."  He meant it then, he still means it, and he's somebody I'd go a LONG way to avoid pissing off, and he's not a rarity.
 
2013-10-31 01:13:19 AM  

TwistedIvory: Sgt Otter: Hi-Point and Kel-Tec.

I actually wouldn't mind a super-cheap Hi-Point as a beater truck gun. Their products feel awful in the hand, but they do at least function. There are a few "Hi-Point torture tests" on YouTube that are testaments to this fact.

That being said, I owned one for a little bit just to see if I could encourage a malf out of it. No such luck. As much as I hated shooting it, it went bang every time.

I really wanted to be 100% okay with Taurus. Hell, I have a 605SS that's one of my EDC guns. It, however, has given me problems on a couple separate occasions but I really only trust that first round. I'm trying to find a decent S&W Model 60 or the like to replace the Taurus, but I've had little luck on that front.


I used to own a Hi-Point .45 and 9mm.  After one day at the range and one day at Front Sight, they both had so many malfunctions that you might get 2 shots off consecutively, but not 3.  They gave me the incentive to save for a Glock.  5 years, no malfunctions.  For general plinking, they would be ok, but don't trust your life to them.
 
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