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(Opposing Views)   Gun advocacy group insists that them raffling off the same gun that killed Travyon Martin was totally unintentional. Why were they doing it on the day that George Zimmerman's defense attorney was scheduled to speak, you ask? Just a coincidence   (opposingviews.com) divider line 277
    More: Unlikely, George Zimmerman, Mark O'Mara, advocacy group, Gun advocacy, Florida Today, Republican Liberty Caucus, handguns  
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2774 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Oct 2013 at 9:47 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-29 11:15:25 PM  

pedrop357: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.

Gun control and "protecting Second Amendment rights" are not the same thing. Does not California still have Second Amendment rights? The Supreme Court said in their gun decisions that gun control, subject to judicial review, is permissible. Which one are you talking about, the Second Amendment or gun control?

The courts have regularly ruled that the enumerated rights that the second amendment declares "shall not be infringed" indeed can be, and commonly are infringed.

Essentially the right to bear arms extends only so far as it is compatible with the general welfare clause.

I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle, but anything beyond that I believe may be at risk as the NRA and it's ilk continue to alienate the younger generations.

Please provide proof that younger people are being alienated vis-a-vis gun rights.

You're a clown who likes to pretend that you've staked out some sipposedly moderate position in relation to all the poeple you like to pretend are extremists, yet you seem to repeatedly regurgitate the talking points and overall mindset of the same anti-gun people who used to claim that the 2nd amendment wasn't an individual right at all.


I've said nothing about my personal philosophy of gun rights in this thread, but people like you prove my point for me; you respond to mere conversation with histrionic aggression that makes me think that if there's any group that demonstrably can't handle the freedom to possess potentially deadly weapons, it's people with clear self-control problems like you.
 
2013-10-29 11:16:28 PM  

udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.


Ah....so you are trolling....good to know.
 
2013-10-29 11:17:47 PM  

kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.


LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.
 
2013-10-29 11:17:52 PM  

udhq: I've said nothing about my personal philosophy of gun rights in this thread, but people like you prove my point for me; you respond to mere conversation with histrionic aggression that makes me think that if there's any group that demonstrably can't handle the freedom to possess potentially deadly weapons, it's people with clear self-control problems like you.


You have yet to respond to this:

Frank N Stein: udhq: but anything beyond that I believe may be at risk as the NRA and it's ilk continue to alienate the younger generations.

http://www.livescience.com/26289-young-americans-gun-ownership.html
"More high-school and college students plan to own guns in adulthood than actually grew up with guns in their houses, a new national survey reveals."

"This is a generation of people who all grew up post-Columbine and who have been aware of egregious   over the course of their entire lives,"


Would you care to humor me and tell me what you make of that piece of evidence and how it fits into your theory that young people do not like guns?
 
2013-10-29 11:19:40 PM  
LoneWolf343:
LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-10-29 11:19:51 PM  

WhyKnot: udhq: Doom MD: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.
Call of duty has caused more young people to get into guns than anything. To say guns are losing popularity is laughable.

There will always be a small contingent of heavily armed, single, angry conservative white men.

But I know probably a dozen men from the rural town where I grew up who gave up their guns in order to convince their gfs to get married or have kids.

That's how women drive a lot of this social change, and I don't think I know a single woman under the age of 25 who owns a gun.

You know a bunch of weak men...why change for a women?

Why not teach them to shoot and not be scared of guns?


Meh, it's a choice to be made, your guns or your family.

I think it's not unreasonable for a woman to be able to choose whether she wants to live/have children with guns around. No matter how safe and smart you are about it, having a gun in your house does present some risk.
 
2013-10-29 11:20:12 PM  

udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle

...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.
 
2013-10-29 11:20:47 PM  

LoneWolf343: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.


1775
they haven't attempted it since.
/That was your ONCE
//wanna try for two?
 
2013-10-29 11:23:51 PM  

LoneWolf343: Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.


That "We came unarmed (this time)" shiat always makes me laugh. The government will do whatever they want and you're not going to do a damn thing, Cletus.
 
2013-10-29 11:24:01 PM  

kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.


Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.
 
2013-10-29 11:24:55 PM  

udhq: 've said nothing about my personal philosophy of gun rights in this thread, but people like you prove my point for me; you respond to mere conversation with histrionic aggression that makes me think that if there's any group that demonstrably can't handle the freedom to possess potentially deadly weapons, it's people with clear self-control problems like you.


Sounds like projection to me.  Histrionic aggression?  Is that what you call disagreement.  I agree that people like you who view disagreements or counter opinions as "aggression" should not be possessing firearms or any other dangerous objectk.

All anyone has to do is read your posts in every other thread to see how you're really just a troll.
 
2013-10-29 11:27:06 PM  
Alright, udhq gets a bump to 9/10. Seriously, I've already concluded he's a troll yet I'm still raging at his idiocy. Quality work.
 
2013-10-29 11:27:09 PM  

Mugato: LoneWolf343: Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.

That "We came unarmed (this time)" shiat always makes me laugh. The government will do whatever they want and you're not going to do a damn thing, Cletus.


What are you gonna do Mugato, hide in your condo?
 
2013-10-29 11:27:09 PM  

udhq: WhyKnot: udhq: Doom MD: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.
Call of duty has caused more young people to get into guns than anything. To say guns are losing popularity is laughable.

There will always be a small contingent of heavily armed, single, angry conservative white men.

But I know probably a dozen men from the rural town where I grew up who gave up their guns in order to convince their gfs to get married or have kids.

That's how women drive a lot of this social change, and I don't think I know a single woman under the age of 25 who owns a gun.

You know a bunch of weak men...why change for a women?

Why not teach them to shoot and not be scared of guns?

Meh, it's a choice to be made, your guns or your family.

I think it's not unreasonable for a woman to be able to choose whether she wants to live/have children with guns around. No matter how safe and smart you are about it, having a gun in your house does present some risk.


Yes, it is not unreasonable for a woman to chose...it also isn't unreasonable for a man to say no...and gender roles are not predetermined so it can be vice versa.

Yes, a gun does present some risks...alternatively, it also provides added security...security at home, security while hiking and camping.

With crime rates increasing and police response time decreasing...more and more people will be looking for means to protect themselves. But don't worry citizen big brother will be there to protect you and make sure you are safe.
 
2013-10-29 11:28:02 PM  

Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.


The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.
 
2013-10-29 11:29:45 PM  

LoneWolf343: LOL. Name one time, ONE TIME, where the threat of armed insurrection has prevented a government office from infringing on the freedom of expression.


Battle of Athens, TN (1946). Sheriff tried to steal an election. A group of armed citizens took over the town and secured the ballot box after the local sheriff tried to take them to the local jail for a private counting.

Robert Williams recounts a tale in "Negroes with Guns" where he helped establish armed groups of blacks in his local town who would guard houses threatened by the KKK.
 
2013-10-29 11:29:55 PM  

udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.


While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.
 
2013-10-29 11:30:32 PM  

udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.


2/10
 
2013-10-29 11:31:53 PM  

udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.


Um...what?

The 2nd agreement is designed to protect democracy so that in the government becomes oppressive the people have the means to cast off the shackles of oppression and start over.
 
2013-10-29 11:33:44 PM  

udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.


Do you really believe that? Or is it, something that you would like to be true? There is a difference.
 
2013-10-29 11:34:30 PM  

WhyKnot: udhq: WhyKnot: udhq: Doom MD: udhq: Adolf Oliver Nipples: udhq: You want to preserve your second amendment rights?

I don't have to try to preserve them, you'll never get a majority of Representatives, 23rds of the Senate, and 38 states to agree to a repeal. Never.

The ssecond amendment doesn't have to be repealed to pass major restrictions on gun rights. Remember the temporary awb? That was never found to be unconstitutional.

Go into a high school class room sometime and talk to some of the kids. I have, even in some quite rural areas, and my conclusion is that like it or not, the meaning and scope of "gun rights" will almost certainly evolve in the next 50 years.
Call of duty has caused more young people to get into guns than anything. To say guns are losing popularity is laughable.

There will always be a small contingent of heavily armed, single, angry conservative white men.

But I know probably a dozen men from the rural town where I grew up who gave up their guns in order to convince their gfs to get married or have kids.

That's how women drive a lot of this social change, and I don't think I know a single woman under the age of 25 who owns a gun.

You know a bunch of weak men...why change for a women?

Why not teach them to shoot and not be scared of guns?

Meh, it's a choice to be made, your guns or your family.

I think it's not unreasonable for a woman to be able to choose whether she wants to live/have children with guns around. No matter how safe and smart you are about it, having a gun in your house does present some risk.

Yes, it is not unreasonable for a woman to chose...it also isn't unreasonable for a man to say no...and gender roles are not predetermined so it can be vice versa.

Yes, a gun does present some risks...alternatively, it also provides added security...security at home, security while hiking and camping.

With crime rates increasing and police response time decreasing...more and more people will be looking for means to protect themselves. But don't worry citizen big brother will be there to protect you and make sure you are safe.


Crime rates increasing? Really? Violent crime has been falling precipitously for decades.

That said even if the statistics say that having a gun in your home doesn't make you safer, I know it makes a lot of people FEEL safer. There's value in that, and I wouldn't begrudge that of anybody. Just be smart and keep it locked up.
 
2013-10-29 11:40:24 PM  

kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.


I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners to start taking gun ownership seriously and treat it as the great responsibility it is.
 
2013-10-29 11:41:03 PM  

udhq: The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.


It's not that the truth is inconvenient, it's the sources that are strained and convoluted. The justification you have is all too convenient. Put it to you this way, saying the 2nd Amendment was designed to enforce slavery is about as goofy as saying the banana was designed to fit into a human hand.

Interesting experiment for you. Put "2nd Amendment Slavery" into google. Note all the results are bunched around the same date and refer to a lot of the same sources. It's because it's a talking point created around the beginning of this year by a fraudulent pseudo-historian. His article was within days spread from one end of the Earth to the other. It's been debunked. Very debunked. I'd wager that you yourself never uttered the argument before it was put there by talking heads intent on manufacturing your opinion earlier this year.
 
2013-10-29 11:41:24 PM  
I like guns.
 
2013-10-29 11:43:54 PM  

udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.

I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners to start taking gun ownership seri ...


You mean, how we would like you to start treating the 1st amendment seriously? It is a two way street.
 
2013-10-29 11:46:04 PM  

WhyKnot: udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.

Um...what?

The 2nd agreement is designed to protect democracy so that in the government becomes oppressive the people have the means to cast off the shackles of oppression and start over.


That is absolutely not true. That's why the constitution set up regular elections, they never intended for citizens to be able to replace elections with rule by gunpoint.

The second amendment was added specifically because they needed southern states to ratify the bor, and those states wanted their right to keep their slave militias protected.
 
2013-10-29 11:48:13 PM  

kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.

I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners to start taking gun ownership seri ...

You mean, how we would like you to start treating the 1st amendment seriously? It is a two way street.


How so? Is my speech here bothering you?
 
2013-10-29 11:48:24 PM  

udhq: The second amendment was added specifically because they needed southern states to ratify the bor, and those states wanted their right to keep their slave militias protected.


Citation needed.
 
2013-10-29 11:49:01 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Oddly enough, I don't really consort with a lot of teenagers, but the three I've talked to recently (we go to the same gym) all own guns.


My 6 year old and 9 year old daughters both LOVE their guns and going to the range. Here's a picture of one such trip:
i135.photobucket.com
I often wonder if the anti-gunners think that she's compensating for having a small penis...
 
2013-10-29 11:50:05 PM  
Believe what you want Democrats. But if think an aggressive attack on gun owners, backed by sweet, sweet billions from your hero and contemporary Michael Bloomberg, will prevent firearms ownership in this country, you are a stupid, farking fool.
 
2013-10-29 11:51:36 PM  

WhyKnot: The 2nd agreement is designed to protect democracy so that in the government becomes oppressive the people have the means to cast off the shackles of oppression and start over.


That's so cute.
 
2013-10-29 11:51:59 PM  

udhq: WhyKnot: udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.

Um...what?

The 2nd agreement is designed to protect democracy so that in the government becomes oppressive the people have the means to cast off the shackles of oppression and start over.

That is absolutely not true. That's why the constitution set up regular elections, they never intended for citizens to be able to replace elections with rule by gunpoint.

The second amendment was added specifically because they needed southern states to ratify the bor, and those states wanted their right to keep their slave militias protected.


I'm not sure what your reading comprehension is on the 2nd Amendment, but you, without a doubt, have no comprehension of it, nor do you have any comprehension of the others.
 
2013-10-29 11:52:21 PM  

udhq: WhyKnot: udhq: Mrbogey: udhq: I think we'll probably always have a right to own some kind of hunting or sport rifle...

If it weren't for all those tasty game animals, the Revolution would have been lost. That's clearly why the 2nd Amendment was crafted.

The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.

Um...what?

The 2nd agreement is designed to protect democracy so that in the government becomes oppressive the people have the means to cast off the shackles of oppression and start over.

That is absolutely not true. That's why the constitution set up regular elections, they never intended for citizens to be able to replace elections with rule by gunpoint.

The second amendment was added specifically because they needed southern states to ratify the bor, and those states wanted their right to keep their slave militias protected.


I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

It really isn't that hard of a concept.
 
2013-10-29 11:53:05 PM  

udhq: That is absolutely not true. That's why the constitution set up regular elections, they never intended for citizens to be able to replace elections with rule by gunpoint.


Nor did they intend for the government to rule that way.
 
2013-10-29 11:54:37 PM  

WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.


The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.
 
2013-10-29 11:54:45 PM  

udhq: The second amendment was added specifically because they needed southern states to ratify the bor, and those states wanted their right to keep their slave militias protected.


Uh, hello?

I already called your bluff and flipped my cards showing a royal flush. You can stop sliding money into the pot now.
 
2013-10-29 11:54:54 PM  

Mrbogey: udhq: The 2nd amendment was crafted primarily as a means to enforce slavery, but people tend to get a little touchy when you bring up that inconvenient truth.

It's not that the truth is inconvenient, it's the sources that are strained and convoluted. The justification you have is all too convenient. Put it to you this way, saying the 2nd Amendment was designed to enforce slavery is about as goofy as saying the banana was designed to fit into a human hand.

Interesting experiment for you. Put "2nd Amendment Slavery" into google. Note all the results are bunched around the same date and refer to a lot of the same sources. It's because it's a talking point created around the beginning of this year by a fraudulent pseudo-historian. His article was within days spread from one end of the Earth to the other. It's been debunked. Very debunked. I'd wager that you yourself never uttered the argument before it was put there by talking heads intent on manufacturing your opinion earlier this year.


What on earth makes you think that this is a new idea?

I used to work as an education consultant pre-no child, and several states had this fact on their social studies standards. I couldn't tell you which states of the top of my head, butit was printed as fact in several state-specific textbooks. I believe it was Georgia that actually had an entire section on the "Negro disarmament movement" that birthed the NRA. I actually found it pretty shocking that they would teach that stuff.
 
2013-10-29 11:55:50 PM  

udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.

I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners to start taking g ...


No, your speech isn't bothering me. That's the fun thing about this that you can't comprehend. It doesn't bother me that you have the right to free speech. Do I bother you?
 
2013-10-29 11:55:54 PM  

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Oddly enough, I don't really consort with a lot of teenagers, but the three I've talked to recently (we go to the same gym) all own guns.

My 6 year old and 9 year old daughters both LOVE their guns and going to the range. Here's a picture of one such trip:
[i135.photobucket.com image 799x598]
I often wonder if the anti-gunners think that she's compensating for having a small penis...



My nearly 13 year old daughter graduated from her Crickett .22 to a Savage Axis .223. She enjoys shooting a lot.
i74.photobucket.com
 
2013-10-29 11:56:01 PM  

Mugato: WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.


Yup...the same was thought about a bunch of "colonies" and the "British empire".
 
2013-10-29 11:56:16 PM  

axeeugene: I've grown to like guns. I've always been a (cautious) supporter of Second Amendment rights. But I'll never understand the gun culture's increasingly rabid nature, nor would I ever *ever* consider membership in that poisonous organization, the NRA.


You should check out the possibly NSFW website of JPFO:  http://jpfo.org/
 
2013-10-29 11:57:17 PM  
There are a lot more leftie gun owners here than I would've figured.

Cool!

As far as topicality is concerned: It's a Kel-Tec. I wouldn't buy a raffle ticket for ANY sort of Kel-Tec. They're worse than Taurus, and I've had a few of those (and all have needed factory warranty work). PF-9 or not, ugh. The advocacy group should be ashamed of being in poor taste even WITHOUT the Zimmerman connection.
 
2013-10-29 11:57:52 PM  

mediablitz: Pussies. Not even man enough to own their bullshiat.


Yep.
 
2013-10-29 11:58:00 PM  

WhyKnot: Mugato: WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.

Yup...the same was thought about a bunch of "colonies" and the "British empire".


And you think those two scenarios are similar in any way?
 
2013-10-29 11:59:02 PM  

Mugato: WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.


The people have enough representation in the military to take care of the US military. It's the para-military police forces that are the real issue for the people.
 
2013-10-30 12:00:45 AM  

udhq: What on earth makes you think that this is a new idea?

I used to work as an education consultant pre-no child, and several states had this fact on their social studies standards. I couldn't tell you which states of the top of my head, butit was printed as fact in several state-specific textbooks. I believe it was Georgia that actually had an entire section on the "Negro disarmament movement" that birthed the NRA. I actually found it pretty shocking that they would teach that stuff.


Cool fact- "Negro Disarmament Movement" doesn't return any google results. The way you talk, it seems like you earnestly believe what you're saying. Knowing the rough history of the NRA, I'd have to say only a certifiable ignoramus would say the NRA was founded to disarm the negro.
 
2013-10-30 12:03:02 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Had Travyon killed Martin, he'd have gotten off on the same law and you racist pro-Zimmerman d-bags would be calling for a noose.


If the only thing changed that night was that Martin had been white (Z was no more "white" than Barak Obama is "white") and Zimmermann had been black, I'm pretty sure that a lot of Zimmermann supporters would still be Zimmermann supporters...For me, at least, race was COMPLETELY a non-issue.
 
2013-10-30 12:03:56 AM  

Ow! That was my feelings!: Believe what you want Democrats. But if think an aggressive attack on gun owners,


Right. It's the Democrats working toward sensible weapons restrictions and more thorough background checks who are perpetrating an aggressive attack on those poor, defenseless, poorly-funded, politically under-represented, peace-loving gun owners. I'm sure that representation of the situation will get you far.

It's the relentless howling from the weapons lobbies that nets us the useless, meaningless, wrong-headed kinds of restrictions we end up with - because they're all that can pass when one side is rabid. If the vociferous supporters of gun rights in this country would quit gobbling the NRA's knob and be willing to acknowledge that the gun culture in this country does indeed bring problems that need commonsense solutions, then choose to present a few ideas to help solve them instead of hollering, "MOLON LABE, biatchES! FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS, YOU COMMIE FASCIST BASTARDS!" then we might get somewhere sensible.

But no. It always has to devolve into this.

I think it's high time for left-leaning gun owners like myself and a few others to take a more active part in this debate...forget what I said earlier in this thread, because cooler heads have to prevail in this debate at some point. It's time to take back the goddamn asylum.
 
2013-10-30 12:04:11 AM  

kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: kerrigand: udhq: The_Sponge: udhq: Ask anyone under 20, and they'll tell you that gun owners are weird and socially dysfunctional.


1) Anyone?  Make blanket statements often?  Or are you just a garden variety troll?

2) Yes, because people under 20 are known for their wisdom and vast life experience.  Oh wait, they're not.

3) Socially dysfunctional?  That's news to my friends and coworkers.

It may be a blanket statement, but it's true. This is the Columbine generation who've never known a school without metal detectors, and who've lived through the violent rhetoric of 2 separate anti government movements, the tea party and the 90s militia movement.

I'm a second amendment agnostic, I've owned guns in the past but don't currently, and I dont really care about gun rights, except when people start talking about guns as expressions of political power; this kind of rhetoric makes you a violent thug and quite literally a fascist.

All I'm saying is that if you value gun rights, PR matters. And if you want to alienate the people who will be voting on things like gun control in the future, treating the violent killing of a child as a "victory" in any way for your side is a great way to about it.

Well you can feel free to express what you think. Our 2nd Amendment, protects your right to the 1st. You may want to think about that.

Now this line does bother me. IMO, guns should not be treated as a political tool. We live in a representative democracy precisely so the rules aren't written by the most heavily armed.

While your are correct to an extent the 2nd shouldn't really be treated as a political tool. But when people such as yourself want to remove it, it affects all of us. I know that you don't think that it does, but it does. And you, are, using it as a political tool. Don't forget that. You, are, using it, as a political tool.

I never said I wanted to get rid of the second amendment, I mostly just want gun owners to start taking g ...

No, your speech isn't bothering me. That's the fun thing about this that you can't comprehend. It doesn't bother me that you have the right to free speech. Do I bother you?


Nope, not in the least, nor do responsible exercises of your gun rights bother me.

It's when people start to make threats, use violent rhetoric, or insist that their guns entitle them to disproportionate political power that I start thinking about using my vote too support people and policies that will separate violent thugs who threaten the general welfare from their weapons.
 
2013-10-30 12:04:50 AM  

Mugato: WhyKnot: Mugato: WhyKnot: I never said replace elections...if the government were to say...suspend elections...then yes, similar to the revolution, the people would have the means to displace the oppressors.

The thought of "the people" taking on the US military is farking ludicrous.

Yup...the same was thought about a bunch of "colonies" and the "British empire".

And you think those two scenarios are similar in any way?


Clearly military technology had advanced x1000.

That being said and all do respect to our military, how did our start of the art technology work against tribes in Afghanistan and Iraq?

How about Mumbaric in Egpyt? Or Kadafi?
 
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