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(The Detroit_News)   U.S. automakers struggle with reliability, but so far have still managed to fend it off   (detroitnews.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, automakers, Consumer Reports, automakers struggle, Kelley Blue Book, reliability, Auburn Hills, General Motors Co., Acura  
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2010 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 Oct 2013 at 2:05 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



102 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2013-10-28 07:53:52 PM  
+1 subby.
 
2013-10-28 09:27:58 PM  
+1.
 
2013-10-28 10:39:25 PM  
Late entry for HOTY!
 
2013-10-28 10:59:59 PM  
Their first mistake was expecting their car to do anything except convey them from place to place.
 
2013-10-28 11:42:19 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Their first mistake was expecting their car to do anything except convey them from place to place.


Their second mistake was probably driving an automatic
 
2013-10-28 11:50:10 PM  

omnibus_necanda_sunt: +1 subby.


This.

FTFA: Ford Motor Co., General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co. saw the reliability of many of their vehicles suffer because of unresponsive infotainment systems and faulty voice recognition commands

I wonder why they just don't build something on top of Android like Amazon did? That's gotta be easier than rolling your own from scratch.
 
2013-10-29 01:07:48 AM  
Isn't it time Fark had a religion tab?

/bicycle threads
//apple threads
///ford threads
////not sure about hamburger threads but probably those too
 
2013-10-29 02:10:29 AM  
Headline: U.S. Automakers struggle with reliability

Actual f*cking article: Brands with recent recurring histories of major life-threatening defects like Toyota have better marketing than older brands like Ford and GM, and therefore idiots who don't actually research cars perceive the deathtrap Toyotas as being more reliable.
 
2013-10-29 02:11:06 AM  

unlikely: Isn't it time Fark had a religion tab?

/bicycle threads
//apple threads
///ford threads
////not sure about hamburger threads but probably those too


The ramen threads get a little nuts.

/those damn Pastafarians! :)
//maybe just a food tab then...
 
2013-10-29 02:13:12 AM  
LOL subby, +1.

"Newer audio and infotainment systems continue to create headaches for consumers"
Sooooo... not actual reliability, just UX frustrations, huh?

Reliability across makes is actually narrowing, the only way to really differentiate is through stuff like "infotainment systems".

images.newcars.com
 
2013-10-29 02:42:03 AM  
Parents bought a Chrysler 500. Six years on, its falling apart.
 
2013-10-29 03:19:16 AM  
I'm not too much of a fan of CR's car ratings. People disliking the car's infotainment system is somehow on the same level as having a shiatty drive train that frequently breaks down.
 
2013-10-29 04:08:11 AM  
Wait till they see the new Mercedes infotainment system
 
2013-10-29 04:17:58 AM  
i thought i read up on the car i bought fairly well. while in the service waiting room for the first recall on the car a cheeky salesman asked me how much i liked the car. i said it sucked the car didn't come with variable wipers and a locking gas cap. the bastard said i should have bought a better model. toyota-never again.
 
2013-10-29 05:15:45 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Headline: U.S. Automakers struggle with reliability

Actual f*cking article: Brands with recent recurring histories of major life-threatening defects like Toyota have better marketing than older brands like Ford and GM, and therefore idiots who don't actually research cars perceive the deathtrap Toyotas as being more reliable.


Deathtrap Toyotas? You didn't really buy that crap about runaway throttles did you? I mean that woman who said her Lexus was a deathtrap that would randomly accelerate uncontrollably didn't mind selling it bto someone else without mentioning that to them and after 2 or 3 years they never had that issue.
 
2013-10-29 05:57:02 AM  
Meanwhile, your Prius just failed the crash safety test.

/how many paramedics does it take to get the smug look off your corpse's face?
 
2013-10-29 06:29:32 AM  

starlost: i thought i read up on the car i bought fairly well. while in the service waiting room for the first recall on the car a cheeky salesman asked me how much i liked the car. i said it sucked the car didn't come with variable wipers and a locking gas cap. the bastard said i should have bought a better model. toyota-never again.


Honestly. This bit of withholding options is pretty irritating. My $9999 Hyundai came with variable wipers, FFS, and it didn't even have a radio.

I don't mind that I bought the stripped model with absolutely nothing on it; that was the plan. If I had spent real money on it, though, I'd damned sure expect it to be reasonably well-equipped.
 
2013-10-29 07:21:28 AM  
FTA: "Infotainment obstacles are likely to continue, Fisher said, based on results from a smaller follow-up survey of about 5,000 consumers. Younger drivers reported a higher instance of problems - the systems simply don't work - while older drivers said the systems were more complicated."

Yeah, the in car systems all suck.  As soon as the big three get their heads out of their asses and go with reliable underlying technology and simple user interfaces, this will all go away.  Some of their decisions have been mind-boggling.  As an example, GM's nav systems have gone from Google Maps and integration, the industry standard, to Bing.  Bing?  Seriously?  What the hell are these people thinking?  I haven't used my in car system since and will never buy another GM vehicle with one again.

Mechanically I have never had a problem with my GM car and I think that the quality issues in anything post-2010 are way overblown.  Damn their aesthetics are terrible though.
 
2013-10-29 07:57:10 AM  

StopLurkListen: LOL subby, +1.

"Newer audio and infotainment systems continue to create headaches for consumers"
Sooooo... not actual reliability, just UX frustrations, huh?

Reliability across makes is actually narrowing, the only way to really differentiate is through stuff like "infotainment systems".

[images.newcars.com image 550x375]


Yeah, pretty much this.  Consumer reports has been looking for ways to dock American automakers even as their mechanical reliability equals or surpasses that of imports.  Biatching about UX problems is the way to go.

I think some of these new touchscreen systems are goofy, but I see why they're necessary.  Modern cars have more and more features and systems, and you can't just have a physical button or knob for each system anymore---it would mean way too many buttons that were way too small, harming usability.  A touchscreen fixes those problems, since you can configure it an infinite number of ways and get the screen to display what the driver wants to see---ideally.  But there are teething problems, as with all new technologies.  They'll get it figured out in a few years, I'm sure.
 
2013-10-29 08:01:19 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Brands with recent recurring histories of major life-threatening defects like Toyota have better marketing than older brands like Ford and GM, and therefore idiots who don't actually research cars perceive the deathtrap Toyotas as being more reliable.


Coming from the Detroit News, so you know the source is unbiased!

/ No industry has scorched-earth marketing quite like auto.
 
2013-10-29 08:39:02 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: StopLurkListen: LOL subby, +1.

"Newer audio and infotainment systems continue to create headaches for consumers"
Sooooo... not actual reliability, just UX frustrations, huh?

Reliability across makes is actually narrowing, the only way to really differentiate is through stuff like "infotainment systems".

[images.newcars.com image 550x375]

Yeah, pretty much this.  Consumer reports has been looking for ways to dock American automakers even as their mechanical reliability equals or surpasses that of imports.  Biatching about UX problems is the way to go.

I think some of these new touchscreen systems are goofy, but I see why they're necessary.  Modern cars have more and more features and systems, and you can't just have a physical button or knob for each system anymore---it would mean way too many buttons that were way too small, harming usability.  A touchscreen fixes those problems, since you can configure it an infinite number of ways and get the screen to display what the driver wants to see---ideally.  But there are teething problems, as with all new technologies.  They'll get it figured out in a few years, I'm sure.


Consumer Reports "docks" American automakers because some of them need to be docked.  GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.  Ford, although they've made HUGE improvements in their reliability as compared to years past, continue to bang their heads against a wall over something so simple that every Android/Apple phone can do it 100x better, all someone at Ford has to do is pick up a phone and outsource their development.  They don't because they want full control, so I'd expect them to come up with a solution that fits their $2500 price tag that's not so riddled with bugs as to be non-functional.  Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge should be just shot into the sun.
 
2013-10-29 08:55:18 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Headline: U.S. Automakers struggle with reliability

Actual f*cking article: Brands with recent recurring histories of major life-threatening defects like Toyota have better marketing than older brands like Ford and GM, and therefore idiots who don't actually research cars perceive the deathtrap Toyotas as being more reliable.


My 2004 Matrix is a hair shy of 215K miles, so your HURRDURRR is invalid.

/My '95 Saturn SL2 barely made it to 125K, and started falling apart at 110K
//Will never buy American ever again.
 
2013-10-29 09:21:40 AM  

StopLurkListen: LOL subby, +1.

"Newer audio and infotainment systems continue to create headaches for consumers"
Sooooo... not actual reliability, just UX frustrations, huh?

Reliability across makes is actually narrowing, the only way to really differentiate is through stuff like "infotainment systems".

[images.newcars.com image 550x375]


Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.
 
2013-10-29 09:30:17 AM  
What I keep hearing from US automakers is "We're just as good as Toyota/Nissan/etc."  What they don't get is that even if you're just as good, I still have zero motivation to switch.  What I want is "better than...", and a quantifiable, verifiable "better than," not just "we think we're just awesome and you should too!"

/ drives a Prius
// 145,000 miles and still runs like a champ
/// suck it GM
 
2013-10-29 10:09:56 AM  

kregh99: What I keep hearing from US automakers is "We're just as good as Toyota/Nissan/etc."  What they don't get is that even if you're just as good, I still have zero motivation to switch.  What I want is "better than...", and a quantifiable, verifiable "better than," not just "we think we're just awesome and you should too!"

/ drives a Prius
// 145,000 miles and still runs like a champ
/// suck it GM


But haven't the domestics been routinely been beating imports for reliability and satisfaction for a decade? And it's mostly morons who are still occupying a 1990's mindset on this kind of thing? And whenever the imports beat out domestics, its mostly on stupid shiat like infotainment systems? And of course, they're still comparing luxury and basic badges from all makers like they're equivalent? Not you of course. 145,000 miles is super impressive. Most cars crap out around eight thousand or so.

/if someone could show how a corolla was #1 in America and ignore all the crashes to try to disprove my point, that'd be great.
 
2013-10-29 10:11:28 AM  
Have Lincolns ever been anything other than overpriced POS death traps?
 
2013-10-29 10:22:22 AM  

DjangoStonereaver: HotWingAgenda: Headline: U.S. Automakers struggle with reliability

Actual f*cking article: Brands with recent recurring histories of major life-threatening defects like Toyota have better marketing than older brands like Ford and GM, and therefore idiots who don't actually research cars perceive the deathtrap Toyotas as being more reliable.

My 2004 Matrix is a hair shy of 215K miles, so your HURRDURRR is invalid.

/My '95 Saturn SL2 barely made it to 125K, and started falling apart at 110K
//Will never buy American ever again.


My prius is at 150k, no issues whatsoever. Still has the same poor ride quality and handling as always, but I don't really care about such. It actually does okay in the snow once you get some decent tires (though they do hurt the gas milage a bit). Plus its nice to never have to put more than 7 gallons in the thing. Wife's car is a hybrid highlander of a similar age with 120k on it and is still an excellent car.
 
2013-10-29 10:29:20 AM  
The American car manufacturers have completely polluted the opinions of at least 2, maybe 3 entire generations of Americans with poorly produced shoddy crap vehicles.  The only people who think that American means quality and foreign means bad are over 60 years old.  Everyone else has never known an American car manufacturer that could put together legos competently and has only known foreign (esp. Japanese) cars that are cheap, work, and don't break.

Right now, Ford or Chevy or GM could produce a solid gold piece of perfection, but I wouldn't believe it for a few years.  It's like convincing a football fan that the Cleveland Browns are a legit contender.
 
2013-10-29 10:31:31 AM  
There is a reason Toyota kicks everyone's ass in the electronics - also the reason I no longer buy domestic. They have invested shiatloads into their R&D and actually have functional design in the interior instead of throwing some plastic trim, baubles at the problem (Ford, Chrysler, GM).

The easiest example of this I can think of is the cellphone holder in my Toyota - the charging cable remains entirely hidden away and yet the phone has its own spot out of the way of everything else - its the little things... Also the user interface on the main computer doesn't look/feel like it was designed by poo-flinging monkeys (Ford, cough, cough).
 
2013-10-29 10:37:37 AM  

Mitch Taylor's Bro: omnibus_necanda_sunt: +1 subby.

This.

FTFA: Ford Motor Co., General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co. saw the reliability of many of their vehicles suffer because of unresponsive infotainment systems and faulty voice recognition commands

I wonder why they just don't build something on top of Android like Amazon did? That's gotta be easier than rolling your own from scratch.


In Ford's case the fault is purely on the shoulders of Microsoft. They have some competent touch UI designers over in the Win Phone division that can build a responsive, easy to read interface, but unfortunately the guys over at Sync never talk to them because the company is so siloed. It's so bad that the Sync guys don't even make a Windows Phone app, despite having companion apps for iOS and Android. It makes no sense at all.
 
2013-10-29 10:38:57 AM  

Elzar: There is a reason Toyota kicks everyone's ass in the electronics - also the reason I no longer buy domestic. They have invested shiatloads into their R&D and actually have functional design in the interior instead of throwing some plastic trim, baubles at the problem (Ford, Chrysler, GM).

The easiest example of this I can think of is the cellphone holder in my Toyota - the charging cable remains entirely hidden away and yet the phone has its own spot out of the way of everything else - its the little things... Also the user interface on the main computer doesn't look/feel like it was designed by poo-flinging monkeys (Ford, cough, cough).


Doesn't Ford use Microsoft's ActiveSync?

/Same monkeys, different cage?
 
2013-10-29 10:45:43 AM  
The Sync system works pretty well.
 
2013-10-29 10:51:16 AM  

DoomPaul: I'm not too much of a fan of CR's car ratings. People disliking the car's infotainment system is somehow on the same level as having a shiatty drive train that frequently breaks down.


Yeah no shiat. I really dont care about the infotainment system in a car, as long as the important parts work I am fine. When I got my car a year ago they tried pushing the state of the art bells and whistle infotainment package on me. I forget how many thousands more that would bring the price up to. I passed on it.
 
2013-10-29 10:51:52 AM  

The Muthaship: The Sync system works pretty well.


Mine too.

Connects to my phone. Decent navigation. Sirius radio and sirius travel services. No problems at 45K miles.
 
2013-10-29 10:54:38 AM  
Sure some people like domestic cars and some imports.

At least we can all agree that Chicago "pizza" it revolting.
 
2013-10-29 10:58:46 AM  

Champion of the Sun: kregh99: What I keep hearing from US automakers is "We're just as good as Toyota/Nissan/etc."  What they don't get is that even if you're just as good, I still have zero motivation to switch.  What I want is "better than...", and a quantifiable, verifiable "better than," not just "we think we're just awesome and you should too!"

/ drives a Prius
// 145,000 miles and still runs like a champ
/// suck it GM

But haven't the domestics been routinely been beating imports for reliability and satisfaction for a decade? And it's mostly morons who are still occupying a 1990's mindset on this kind of thing? And whenever the imports beat out domestics, its mostly on stupid shiat like infotainment systems? And of course, they're still comparing luxury and basic badges from all makers like they're equivalent? Not you of course. 145,000 miles is super impressive. Most cars crap out around eight thousand or so.

/if someone could show how a corolla was #1 in America and ignore all the crashes to try to disprove my point, that'd be great.


while the Toyota models were dropped due to crash safety concerns, the Nissan Altima and V6 Accord were dropped due to reliability concerns.

as a city resident, I have the view that if the car is a popular choice for a taxi, it is probably extremely reliable given how much abuse taxis take. so while that does speak well for the Crown Vic & Town Car, it also speaks well for the Ford Escape and Toyota Prius. some of the other approved models are ignored, such as the Altima and Taurus.
 
2013-10-29 11:01:00 AM  
Here's my very complicated and advanced infotainment system:

i7.photobucket.com
 
2013-10-29 11:07:46 AM  

Prophet of Loss: Parents bought a Chrysler 500. Six years on, its falling apart.


I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000.  Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that.  The front windows falling out of a car.  How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?
 
2013-10-29 11:09:21 AM  

SpectroBoy: Sure some people like domestic cars and some imports.

At least we can all agree that Chicago "pizza" it revolting.


1.bp.blogspot.com

Chicago deep dish is quite tasty.

It isn't pizza by any stretch of the imagination, but it is yummy.
 
2013-10-29 11:10:45 AM  

SpectroBoy: No problems at 45K miles.


I'm on 109k.  Not only does the Sync system work well (and is easy to use for a tech moron like me), but the vehicle has been bulletproof so far.

/Overpriced, POS death trap Lincoln....
 
2013-10-29 11:15:30 AM  

DjangoStonereaver: Elzar: There is a reason Toyota kicks everyone's ass in the electronics - also the reason I no longer buy domestic. They have invested shiatloads into their R&D and actually have functional design in the interior instead of throwing some plastic trim, baubles at the problem (Ford, Chrysler, GM).

The easiest example of this I can think of is the cellphone holder in my Toyota - the charging cable remains entirely hidden away and yet the phone has its own spot out of the way of everything else - its the little things... Also the user interface on the main computer doesn't look/feel like it was designed by poo-flinging monkeys (Ford, cough, cough).

Doesn't Ford use Microsoft's ActiveSync?

/Same monkeys, different cage?


Ford's system also had inputs from Continental AG, Nuance, Navteq, and Sony

way too many cooks in the kitchen
 
2013-10-29 11:18:15 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: I think some of these new touchscreen systems are goofy, but I see why they're necessary.  Modern cars have more and more features and systems, and you can't just have a physical button or knob for each system anymore---it would mean way too many buttons that were way too small, harming usability.  A touchscreen fixes those problems, since you can configure it an infinite number of ways and get the screen to display what the driver wants to see---ideally.  But there are teething problems, as with all new technologies.  They'll get it figured out in a few years, I'm sure.


I think they will get it figured out, but I'm still not sure why EVERYTHING needs to be run through the touchscreen.

My Jeep Grand Cherokee (2011) has the nav/stereo functions through a few buttons, a knob, and the touchscreen. HVAC controls are separate and easy to adjust- no needing to fiddle with paging through things to make changes to either.

My wife's Infiniti G37x shows the HVAC info on the touchscreen, but controls are still separate from the stereo/nav. Again, easy.

Part of the user interface issues seems to be trying to make the same set of controls do EVERYTHING. That's not how drivers are used to handling it and it requires attention to be taken away from the road. Sure, it makes for a clean design, but if you're in the stereo controls it isn't that quick to bump the fan speed down a notch or two or vice versa with the volume.

I agree that they'll figure it out, but they would be doing buyers a favor if they'd do more thinking while still retaining some of the "old" ways for the time being.
 
2013-10-29 11:35:21 AM  
In February I had two choices of vehicles that fit what I needed: Ford Fusion Hybrid or Camry Hybrid.

Bought the Camry Hybrid and love every detail and every minute driving it.

/Our 2002 Camry is nearly perfect at 191,000 miles.
//Traded in the 2004 Taurus at 78,000 miles. Hated that many little things were going on it, and the overall ergonomics sucked.
///Worst purchase the wife made ever--she's not allowed to buy cars anymore.
 
hej
2013-10-29 11:41:51 AM  
Foreign automakers are struggling with the infotainment reliability as well.
 
2013-10-29 11:42:54 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: Prophet of Loss: Parents bought a Chrysler 500. Six years on, its falling apart.

I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000.  Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that.  The front windows falling out of a car.  How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?


Meanwhile, I have a 10 year old Camry that has been through a fairly major accident but is still ticking along, mostly trouble free.
 
2013-10-29 11:48:21 AM  

starlost: i thought i read up on the car i bought fairly well. while in the service waiting room for the first recall on the car a cheeky salesman asked me how much i liked the car. i said it sucked the car didn't come with variable wipers and a locking gas cap. the bastard said i should have bought a better model. toyota-never again.


Locking gas caps are $9.95 at Pep Boys.
 
2013-10-29 11:59:48 AM  

Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.


Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.

pheelix: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.


I welcome your input, can you elaborate? I'd like to see some numbers.
 
2013-10-29 12:06:21 PM  

StopLurkListen: Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.

Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.


You have a point when you say that having a engine throw a rod or a transmission gear eat itself is much more catastrophic than the Touch system not working, but seeing as that's a subsystem of the car itself (in that it's slowly taking the place of physical buttons like HVAC), the reliability and ease-of-use of that UI plays a larger and larger role, and a company with the resources of a Ford shouldn't be charging people $2500/3K a pop so they can play beta tester to half-baked software that they're trying to roll themselves.
 
2013-10-29 12:19:02 PM  
My Nissan's Nav/Stereo system is a touch screen. There are no knobs, but there are a couple of buttons - I think for volume and to switch the Nav off and on. I hate it. When the sun hits it at certain angle (which happens a lot in AZ), I can barely even see the thing. I would have been perfectly content not to have this stereo, but there was some other option I wanted (maybe the sunroof?) that came packaged with it. I love my car, but I hate the system in it. I keep telling myself I need to replace the audio system with one I like, but I have a problem tossing out something I paid for that still works.

I hate that options are always packaged now. I know they do it because it'd be damn expensive to offer every single option by itself, but the packages they put together often make no sense. Just because you want one thing doesn't mean you'll necessarily want another. I had a Mazda a few years ago that required me to have leather seats if I wanted a V6 (don't know if they're still doing that). I live in the desert where it's crazy hot in the summer, and I hate leather seats. But I much preferred the V6 to the 4 cylinder when I test drove the car. So I got the V6 with the leather seats, which I regretted every time it was hot outside.
 
2013-10-29 12:22:31 PM  

Comic Book Guy: StopLurkListen: Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.

Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.

You have a point when you say that having a engine throw a rod or a transmission gear eat itself is much more catastrophic than the Touch system not working, but seeing as that's a subsystem of the car itself (in that it's slowly taking the place of physical buttons like HVAC), the reliability and ease-of-use of that UI plays a larger and larger role, and a company with the resources of a Ford shouldn't be charging people $2500/3K a pop so they can play beta tester to half-baked software that they're trying to roll themselves.


No, I'm differentiating between how it's designed, and things that don't work as designed. "Touch system not working" is a reliability failure. "Touch system being unweildy, unintuitive, or confusing" is a design failure.
 
2013-10-29 12:36:50 PM  
2010 seems to be the last year in which cars had plain knobs on things. I'm glad my Outback is from that year. Touchscreens are fine while I'm sitting still, but when I'm driving I don't want to press an icon, wait for something to load, and then have to find the menu option to change from FM to AUX.
 
2013-10-29 12:49:08 PM  

verbaltoxin: 2010 seems to be the last year in which cars had plain knobs on things. I'm glad my Outback is from that year. Touchscreens are fine while I'm sitting still, but when I'm driving I don't want to press an icon, wait for something to load, and then have to find the menu option to change from FM to AUX.


I have a 2014 Outback and it doesn't have a touchscreen. Buttons on the entertainment system and steering wheel.
 
2013-10-29 12:57:45 PM  

Iceman_Cometh: verbaltoxin: 2010 seems to be the last year in which cars had plain knobs on things. I'm glad my Outback is from that year. Touchscreens are fine while I'm sitting still, but when I'm driving I don't want to press an icon, wait for something to load, and then have to find the menu option to change from FM to AUX.

I have a 2014 Outback and it doesn't have a touchscreen. Buttons on the entertainment system and steering wheel.


Yep, my father recently bought a 2014 Forrester. No touchscreen, all physical buttons and knobs.
 
2013-10-29 01:50:32 PM  

akula: I agree that they'll figure it out, but they would be doing buyers a favor if they'd do more thinking while still retaining some of the "old" ways for the time being.


Oh I totally agree.  The problem is they feel like they have to be the first to market with something, even if that something kind of sucks initially.  It seems like they're using the modern video game model of using early adopters as beta testers, but that model works very differently on $50 video games than it does on $25,000 cars.
 
2013-10-29 01:56:05 PM  
Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.
 
2013-10-29 02:08:04 PM  
Lemme get this straight:  Consumer Report docked these cars not because fitfinish or engine reliability but because people can't figure out how to use the radio?

How many people are actually using these systems instead of the navigation apps on their phones anyway?  Personally, outside of the radio, all I want in a sound system is are nice speakers, a good and and either an AUX jack or USB port for my iProduct
 
2013-10-29 02:10:23 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.


Things may have changed in the past decade, but the 3.0L V6 "Flex-Fuel" engine in my '99 Ford Ranger was a gutless and complete POS.

Due to a "manufacturing defect" it quit oiling the timing chain at 89,000 miles. The force of the chain tearing apart punched a hole in the block, tore through the water pump, and lodged itself into the radiator; the cylinders subsequently slammed into the injectors. It was a complete total of nearly everything ahead of the transmission. I bought the truck new, and was faced with dozens of different mechanical and electrical problems in the first two years ownership. From replacement ECU, snapped throttle cable, constantly replacing power window regulators, a couple pre-recall freeway blowouts from the Firestone Wilderness AT tires, wire harness, fuel pump, TCP valves, auto transmission gasket tearing, etc. It was a complete piece of crap.

Then I got smart and bought a new Toyota Tacoma in 2005 and bought a Nissan LEAF at the beginning of the year. The Taco has 170,000 trouble-free miles now and the LEAF is going to roll over 10k gas free miles later this week.

/fark American cars.
 
2013-10-29 02:13:17 PM  
"I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000. Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that. The front windows falling out of a car. How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?"

Yeah, I thought about it Marcus and realized when I favorited you as "Anti Mopar Stupid", I did so correctly.
If any car is costing you $4K a year, it's because you're so stupid the mechanics are bending you over a barrel and porking you deeply. Meanwhile, I still have my 2000 Grand Caravan, no, the windows have never fallen out, even though it's been beat so hard on WV back roads I've had to change the oil pan a couple of times.
BTW, your 2000 300, if it actually existed, would have been a FWD 300M. It has nothing in common with 300s built now, so your anecdotal, possible false, story means nothing when talking about later Chryslers.
 
2013-10-29 02:31:06 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.


The Japanese aren't always 100% either. Our 2005 Acura TL had issues with the bluetooth module and my bother's much newer Odyssey (think it's a 2011... it was one of the first of the current style) has had issues with theirs too, making me think Honda still isn't doing that correctly.

But then, my wife's G37x has been pretty solid in that respect, so it may just be Honda. I used to love Honda, but at the moment they aren't doing one thing that interests me.
 
2013-10-29 02:32:18 PM  
The problem I have with my Ford's sync is that when you plug in your Ipod you suddenly need to do everything through the car and can't just use the frigin scroll wheel.

Maybe I have an old Ipod but I feel like I shouldn't have to shout at the car's voice pickup so it understands I said "Beatles" instead of "Eagles."
 
2013-10-29 02:38:55 PM  
If my stereo goes out it doesnt mean my car is a piece of crap.

Watch Top Gear... most "Infotainment" systems are crap... some are just a polished turd while others are a Chipotle toilet abortion.
 
2013-10-29 02:39:42 PM  
 
2013-10-29 02:48:04 PM  

StrikitRich: Lemme get this straight:  Consumer Report docked these cars not because fitfinish or engine reliability but because people can't figure out how to use the radio?


If people aren't using those features then the bad marks they cause shouldn't have any effect. I read consumer reports reviews and not all parts of the reviews are always relevant to my interests. It's always been that way. For example, they might be critical of a car for having a tight back seat and small trunk space, but I almost never carry people in the back seat of my car and I don't generally haul much around with it so those parts don't matter to me.

If automakers are going to add these things, though, they'd be wrong not to critique them. It's part of the car. If you don't give a shiat if the infotainment system works, fine, but some people will and it wouldn't be fair to them not to hit the car in the review over problems with those systems.

Kurmudgeon: Yeah, I thought about it Marcus and realized when I favorited you as "Anti Mopar Stupid", I did so correctly.


oh! oh! Tell us the one about how the real problem with the Daimler-Chrysler merger was that Mercedes-Benz makes poor quality cars and dragged Chrysler down!
 
2013-10-29 02:51:09 PM  

MrSteve007: Iceman_Cometh: verbaltoxin: 2010 seems to be the last year in which cars had plain knobs on things. I'm glad my Outback is from that year. Touchscreens are fine while I'm sitting still, but when I'm driving I don't want to press an icon, wait for something to load, and then have to find the menu option to change from FM to AUX.

I have a 2014 Outback and it doesn't have a touchscreen. Buttons on the entertainment system and steering wheel.

Yep, my father recently bought a 2014 Forrester. No touchscreen, all physical buttons and knobs.


Sweet. I like that my car is developed by a heavy equipment manufacturer.
 
2013-10-29 02:51:55 PM  

Meatschool: ToastTheRabbiatchipotle toilet abortion

My new band name.


If you actually do it I'd promote it. Just because I want to see it strung on a huge marque down on Sunset Strip...
 
2013-10-29 03:20:17 PM  

MrSteve007: Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

Things may have changed in the past decade, but the 3.0L V6 "Flex-Fuel" engine in my '99 Ford Ranger was a gutless and complete POS.

Due to a "manufacturing defect" it quit oiling the timing chain at 89,000 miles. The force of the chain tearing apart punched a hole in the block, tore through the water pump, and lodged itself into the radiator; the cylinders subsequently slammed into the injectors. It was a complete total of nearly everything ahead of the transmission. I bought the truck new, and was faced with dozens of different mechanical and electrical problems in the first two years ownership. From replacement ECU, snapped throttle cable, constantly replacing power window regulators, a couple pre-recall freeway blowouts from the Firestone Wilderness AT tires, wire harness, fuel pump, TCP valves, auto transmission gasket tearing, etc. It was a complete piece of crap.

Then I got smart and bought a new Toyota Tacoma in 2005 and bought a Nissan LEAF at the beginning of the year. The Taco has 170,000 trouble-free miles now and the LEAF is going to roll over 10k gas free miles later this week.

/fark American cars.


if you had bought an earlier Tacoma you would be singing a different tune. Massive recall and purchase refund program a couple of years ago

/frame rot is fun
 
2013-10-29 03:26:38 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.


Earlier this year I got rid of my 1993 GMC Suburban. My parents drove the shiat out of it up until 2006ish when gas prices shot up. It sat unused until 2010 when my wife and I moved and they gave it to us to help since neither one of us had a truck. We kept it while we were getting settled and working on the house / lawn for the back and forth trips to home despot. Finally got rid of it this year because the oil pressure started dropping to almost nothing, I'm guessing worn out bearings in the engine. As far as I know the only problems my parents ever had with it were the alternator, water pump, and the starter. It only cost me a set of tires, oil changes, inspection, and gas and I still sold it for $500.

Oh and with 312K miles on it.

My wife's old 2000 Taurus was falling apart with 120K on it. Replaced it with a Trailblazer.
 
2013-10-29 03:44:27 PM  

dumbobruni: if you had bought an earlier Tacoma you would be singing a different tune. Massive recall and purchase refund program a couple of years ago/frame rot is fun


You say that like it's a bad thing; a company owning up to their poor engineering. I'd be pleased as punch if Ford had offered me a purchase refund on my Ranger. At 32,000 miles in, I looked into opting to use the "Lemon Law' for my Ranger, as it qualified by being in repair the dealership shop over 70 days - but I discovered that they deducted mileage from the value to qualify it as a lemon. Using the state's math, I'd end up ahead simply selling the truck on the private market. I opted to keep the truck, which in hindsight, was a big mistake, since I had to replace the engine a few years later.

I did, however get an fairly decent settlement from Firestone/Ford for my Wilderness AT blowouts. I had attempted to get the dealership to replace my original tires, and complained on record many times that they were defective. Even after the Explorers started getting recalled for the tires, it took another 18 months (and two additional blowouts on my truck) for Ford to take notice of the Rangers. I forget which company paid out, but the check for $5,000 shut me up helped - which was about the cost for a new engine and radiator soon there-after.
 
2013-10-29 04:00:49 PM  

StopLurkListen: Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.

Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.

pheelix: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

I welcome your input, can you elaborate? I'd like to see some numbers.


You posted a JD Power and Associates graph of problems reported by new car buyers during the first 90 days of ownership.  Such a short time span on a brand new vehicle says very little about how often that car will need repairs throughout its useful life.  I repeat: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

3 658673 122.4   9888277  3.14159265359
 
2013-10-29 04:06:13 PM  

pheelix: 3 658673 122.4 9888277 3.14159265359


I lol'd
 
2013-10-29 04:13:53 PM  

Kurmudgeon: "I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000. Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that. The front windows falling out of a car. How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?"

Yeah, I thought about it Marcus and realized when I favorited you as "Anti Mopar Stupid", I did so correctly.
If any car is costing you $4K a year, it's because you're so stupid the mechanics are bending you over a barrel and porking you deeply. Meanwhile, I still have my 2000 Grand Caravan, no, the windows have never fallen out, even though it's been beat so hard on WV back roads I've had to change the oil pan a couple of times.
BTW, your 2000 300, if it actually existed, would have been a FWD 300M. It has nothing in common with 300s built now, so your anecdotal, possible false, story means nothing when talking about later Chryslers.


Let's put it this way. It's not really a good reflection on an auto manufacturer when its nickname comes from the division that makes the replacement parts, is it?
 
2013-10-29 04:45:29 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Kurmudgeon: "I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000. Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that. The front windows falling out of a car. How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?"

Yeah, I thought about it Marcus and realized when I favorited you as "Anti Mopar Stupid", I did so correctly.
If any car is costing you $4K a year, it's because you're so stupid the mechanics are bending you over a barrel and porking you deeply. Meanwhile, I still have my 2000 Grand Caravan, no, the windows have never fallen out, even though it's been beat so hard on WV back roads I've had to change the oil pan a couple of times.
BTW, your 2000 300, if it actually existed, would have been a FWD 300M. It has nothing in common with 300s built now, so your anecdotal, possible false, story means nothing when talking about later Chryslers.

Let's put it this way. It's not really a good reflection on an auto manufacturer when its nickname comes from the division that makes the replacement parts, is it?


Your newsletter intrigues me and I wish to subscribe. Will it include a complimentary parts 300?
 
2013-10-29 04:46:37 PM  

pheelix: StopLurkListen: Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.

Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.

pheelix: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

I welcome your input, can you elaborate? I'd like to see some numbers.

You posted a JD Power and Associates graph of problems reported by new car buyers during the first 90 days of ownership.  Such a short time span on a brand new vehicle says very little about how often that car will need repairs throughout its useful life.  I repeat: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.


Assertion is not data.  You're welcome to back up your assertions, though.
 
2013-10-29 04:49:30 PM  
Can we please stop blending cars and entertainment computers together? Do we really need more distractions on the road with the dumbasses who are steering the car with their elbows while eating from their KFC GoCup and trying to update their facebook status through the car stereo? More useless features that are increasing the price of a car, and will probably go out of date in a few years anyway, requiring more $$ for an upgrade. Until I have a Google Car that drives me everywhere, all I need is a basic stereo and an aux input. I use a phone app for navigation if I really need it, which is very rarely.

\My father has a 2012 Elantra with a touchscreen setup. It actually isn't bad as it is pretty simple (just radio, nav, and bluetooth controls), but they forced a back-up camera into the package. Why the hell do you need a backup camera in a compact car?
 
2013-10-29 05:04:32 PM  

MBZ321: Can we please stop blending cars


That gives me an idea, but we're gonna need a bigger blender...

imba2012.wikispaces.com
 
2013-10-29 05:08:22 PM  

Prophet of Loss: Parents bought a Chrysler 500. Six years on, its falling apart.



Meanwhile my 13 year old Lexus is going to go another 200,000 miles without a problem.  It's practically invincible.

/and comfortable
//and fun to drive
 
2013-10-29 05:15:52 PM  

groppet: DoomPaul: I'm not too much of a fan of CR's car ratings. People disliking the car's infotainment system is somehow on the same level as having a shiatty drive train that frequently breaks down.

Yeah no shiat. I really dont care about the infotainment system in a car, as long as the important parts work I am fine. When I got my car a year ago they tried pushing the state of the

art bells and whistle infotainment package on me. I forget how many thousands more that would bring the price up to. I passed on it.
I thought that guy was retired!
 
2013-10-29 05:35:48 PM  

ToastTheRabbit: If my stereo goes out it doesnt mean my car is a piece of crap.


But what if your stereo controls the A/C and you live in Arizona?  It would be pretty crappy if it failed.
 
2013-10-29 05:49:13 PM  

StopLurkListen: pheelix: StopLurkListen: Comic Book Guy: GM cars are still largely designed-by-committee pieces of shiat that, while marginally better than model years past, still lag behind their competition.

Don't confuse design and execution with reliability, which is what the discussion is about. Your feelings about design are valid consumer feedback when the discussion is about UX.

pheelix: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

I welcome your input, can you elaborate? I'd like to see some numbers.

You posted a JD Power and Associates graph of problems reported by new car buyers during the first 90 days of ownership.  Such a short time span on a brand new vehicle says very little about how often that car will need repairs throughout its useful life.  I repeat: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

Assertion is not data.  You're welcome to back up your assertions, though.



 

StopLurkListen: Reliability across makes is actually narrowing, the only way to really differentiate is through stuff like "infotainment systems".



img.fark.net

Your quote, along with the pic you posted.  My assertion is that you made an apples to oranges comparison.  However, if you'd like to provide some data backing YOUR assertion that Reliability across makes actually IS narrowing, by all means do so.  Once again, because you don't seem to understand: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.
 
2013-10-29 05:54:28 PM  

MBZ321: \My father has a 2012 Elantra with a touchscreen setup. It actually isn't bad as it is pretty simple (just radio, nav, and bluetooth controls), but they forced a back-up camera into the package. Why the hell do you need a backup camera in a compact car?


Because a lot of the new car designs have sloping lines that result in shiatty rear visibility. Even in the compacts.
 
2013-10-29 05:59:14 PM  

pheelix: Your quote, along with the pic you posted. My assertion is that you made an apples to oranges comparison. However, if you'd like to provide some data backing YOUR assertion that Reliability across makes actually IS narrowing, by all means do so. Once again, because you don't seem to understand: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.



Funny, you don't show the 2011 data - which clearly shows a number of US brands plummeting in quality again - especially Ford. And interestingly, Toyota rising greatly in initial quality. Although Car & Driver has overall issues with trying to rank cars with the JD powers quality survey.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-trouble-with-jd-powers-init ia l-quality-study-feature#JDCHART
 
2013-10-29 06:04:46 PM  

odinsposse: MBZ321: \My father has a 2012 Elantra with a touchscreen setup. It actually isn't bad as it is pretty simple (just radio, nav, and bluetooth controls), but they forced a back-up camera into the package. Why the hell do you need a backup camera in a compact car?

Because a lot of the new car designs have sloping lines that result in shiatty rear visibility. Even in the compacts.


A law was passed in 2007 that essentially requires all cars to have backup cameras by 2011. It's been pushed back a couple times, with the requirement apparently going into place for 2015 models. I certainly doesn't surprise me that some automakers are simply making it a standard early.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/09/25/backup-cameras-d ot -lawsuit-gulbransen-obama-administration/2870819/
 
2013-10-29 06:27:48 PM  

Kurmudgeon: "I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000. Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that. The front windows falling out of a car. How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?"

Yeah, I thought about it Marcus and realized when I favorited you as "Anti Mopar Stupid", I did so correctly.
If any car is costing you $4K a year, it's because you're so stupid the mechanics are bending you over a barrel and porking you deeply. Meanwhile, I still have my 2000 Grand Caravan, no, the windows have never fallen out, even though it's been beat so hard on WV back roads I've had to change the oil pan a couple of times.
BTW, your 2000 300, if it actually existed, would have been a FWD 300M. It has nothing in common with 300s built now, so your anecdotal, possible false, story means nothing when talking about later Chryslers.


Yes yes, the old 300 sucked, the new one is awesome, etc etc.  Chrysler apologists have been doing the "they're better now, the cars don't have glitches anymore" for something close to 50 years now.  I know more than a few 65+ year old guys who are as rah rah American car as you can get, but for them the choices are Ford and GM only, and that even goes back to when they were teenagers.  True, the K car in the early 80s was bolted together better than previous models, but ask any owner how long they went before the electrical system started to glitch out.  Chrysler's QC got to be so bad that when Daimler bought them, the gremlins started infecting the C and E series Benz models in just a few years.  And now Fiat, of all companies, is taking a crack at fixing them, and the jury is still out on that - there are 10 to 15 mid-size sedans that are pretty much no-brainer purchases compared to the 200 due to build quality and value, and the 300 is... OK, I guess, but still not remotely the top car in its segment.
 
2013-10-29 06:55:33 PM  

taliesinwi: the K car in the early 80s was bolted together better than previous models


K-cars sucked-ass. If you want a positive example from Chrysler, I'd point to the old slant-six they used to put in the old Darts. Farking bulletproof engines.
 
2013-10-29 07:00:07 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: K-cars sucked-ass. If you want a positive example from Chrysler, I'd point to the old slant-six they used to put in the old Darts. Farking bulletproof engines.


Unless you were unlucky enough to have an aluminum 225 slant six . . .
 
2013-10-29 07:08:14 PM  
A long time ago, domestic vehicles were the more reliable option.  Then the imports started getting better, and the younger generation crowed about how only old fogeys bought domestic POS vehicles.  The old people were set in their ways, and they continued to buy domestic.

Many years later, the domestic vehicles caught up.  Now the old fogeys insist domestic is crap and swear by their imports.  No way will you change their mind.  This is nothing new.
 
2013-10-29 08:17:14 PM  

MrSteve007: pheelix: Your quote, along with the pic you posted. My assertion is that you made an apples to oranges comparison. However, if you'd like to provide some data backing YOUR assertion that Reliability across makes actually IS narrowing, by all means do so. Once again, because you don't seem to understand: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.


Funny, you don't show the 2011 data - which clearly shows a number of US brands plummeting in quality again - especially Ford. And interestingly, Toyota rising greatly in initial quality. Although Car & Driver has overall issues with trying to rank cars with the JD powers quality survey.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-trouble-with-jd-powers-init ia l-quality-study-feature#JDCHART


Funny, that has nothing to do with the assertion I was trying to make.
 
2013-10-29 08:22:32 PM  
pheelix:Your quote, along with the pic you posted.  My assertion is that you made an apples to oranges comparison.  However, if you'd like to provide some data backing YOUR assertion that Reliability across makes actually IS narrowing, by all means do so.  Once again, because you don't seem to understand: Initial quality and reliability are not the same thing.

I made my assertion, inferring that initial quality correlates with reliability, with a graph. Your position is "NO YOU".  I'm done, you're not discussing, you're just being obnoxious.
 
2013-10-29 08:28:02 PM  

verbaltoxin: 2010 seems to be the last year in which cars had plain knobs on things. I'm glad my Outback is from that year. Touchscreens are fine while I'm sitting still, but when I'm driving I don't want to press an icon, wait for something to load, and then have to find the menu option to change from FM to AUX.


This is the dash of my 2013 Ford Fiesta, losts and lots of buttons:

cdn.caradvice.com.au

I don't have any issues with the Sync package except that certain features are limited in Canada. Oh, and from time to time, my iPod Nano 7th gen decides it don't want to play nice, but I blame that on Apple vs. Microsoft's bullshiat. Actually, the 7th gen just likes to randomly cut out in general. It does it on my Onkyo receiver too.

My S3 has no issues pairing with the car. I haven't used the voice commands too often, but the few times I have, they've worked. I think half the issues people have is that they fail to RTFM, which says you need to practice voice recognition, and that some of the infotainment features are limited via speed (i.e., if you're going over x-speed, you can't have the car send a text message for you), background noise, and the types of devices you're pairing to it. My S3 is compatible with the text message to speech feature on the car, whereas my mother's Galaxy Nexus isn't. Thus, her 2013 Focus won't read her text messages to her.

Right now I'm renting a Fiat Sport while my Fiesta is in for repairs, due to some asshole teen rearending me. I'm not a huge fan of the Fiat for a wide variety of reasons (the main one being that I feel like I'm driving a farking golf cart with the noise and jerkiness in the city, and it sucks for checking blindspots), but one thing I did notice when I went to go plug my iPod in, the damn USB port doesn't even work on it. Apparently that's an issue with the majority of them because there's not enough power going to the USB. However, I'm not going to say the car sucks and is unreliable due to that.

I think it's stupid to give low marks to a vehicle just because people can't be arsed to learn how to use the infotainment systems properly. I've also read conflicting information on the Ford Sync system. Some people love it and have no issues, others are gearing up for a class action lawsuit because things aren't working as to how they expect them to. Most of it is first world problems.

Lunchlady: The problem I have with my Ford's sync is that when you plug in your Ipod you suddenly need to do everything through the car and can't just use the frigin scroll wheel.

Maybe I have an old Ipod but I feel like I shouldn't have to shout at the car's voice pickup so it understands I said "Beatles" instead of "Eagles."


I guess I don't have this problem because I just keep everything on shuffle, and if there's a song I don't like, I just press the skip button on the steering wheel. Much easier and safer than reaching over and blindly fumbling in order to hit the clickwheel (had a 4th gen Nano prior to the new one they came out with last year, battery's shot, so now it just stays in my alarm clock)/side button while keeping my eyes on the road in my 2004 Ford Focus. I had one of those radio transmitters that I docked in a cell phone holder on the dash, and from time to time, I'd get someone else's music as they had their radio set to the same station I had the transmitter. I was home visiting the family, and my brother was just leaving as I was pulling in. He ended up listening to my iPod in his old Taurus, while I had his Sirius transmitter coming through my car. Good times.
 
2013-10-29 10:19:01 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.


That's funny because I'll be replacing the 100K mile 307 in my '72 with a junkyard 6.0 LS this spring. I'll be looking for engines with ~150K on them. Just about everything on the 307 is worn out, not just rotted from sitting.

/apparently that's when the rings are loosened up just right for adding boost
//forward slashies for performance
 
2013-10-29 10:59:01 PM  
I work for a Chrysler dealership, and I own the 2013 Dodge Dart (SXT with the tech package). The sound system has some pretty cool stuff (like a volume adjuster that automatically increases the volume based on RPM to keep engine noise down) if you play around with it, but the user interface is bulky as crap.

It's very clearly designed by marketers to show off all the options rather than for maximum efficiency. Once I set things the way I liked and focused on one screen, the issue largely solved itself because I can do steering wheel controls and voice recognition to jump to new songs. That being said, the car itself is fun to drive and shows off that the Italians actually give a damn about building stuff (even if the primary motivation is to buy out the unions and pour 100% of the American profit to subsidize Fiat brands).

Chrysler did suck for a long time (Daimler didn't give a crap about anything other than luxury sedans and Cerberus focused on short term gutting and fancy warranty options, so I've heard). They've improved a lot in a very short period of time (especially on the back-end, for finance and organizational efficiency - where I work). Consumer Reports, for me, has never been a good voice of tech because if the judge is too dumb to use something properly, it loses points.
 
2013-10-29 11:03:31 PM  

Chevello: Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.

That's funny because I'll be replacing the 100K mile 307 in my '72 with a junkyard 6.0 LS this spring. I'll be looking for engines with ~150K on them. Just about everything on the 307 is worn out, not just rotted from sitting.

/apparently that's when the rings are loosened up just right for adding boost
//forward slashies for performance


You can get an LQ4 from a junkyard for well under 3 grand. That's what I'd look into...
 
2013-10-29 11:18:40 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Chevello: Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.

That's funny because I'll be replacing the 100K mile 307 in my '72 with a junkyard 6.0 LS this spring. I'll be looking for engines with ~150K on them. Just about everything on the 307 is worn out, not just rotted from sitting.

/apparently that's when the rings are loosened up just right for adding boost
//forward slashies for performance

You can get an LQ4 from a junkyard for well under 3 grand. That's what I'd look into...


When the tax return arrives, I'm on it. Either LKQ or car-part has 5.3s for as low as 400, and I've seen  6.0s for 800-1200. I'm sure the lower priced units come with less stuff, so I'll be looking higher to get a more complete setup. I've heard of them arriving complete with harness, gas pedal and computer for under 2K.
 
2013-10-29 11:44:33 PM  
I have a 2008 Toyota Yaris that I've gotten up to 279,621 miles without any work besides scheduled maintenance and occasional washes. (I had a two-hour commute for a while, long story.) It's the absolute base-trim, three-door, cheap-as-a-sneeze econobox, has manual locks and windows you actually roll up, and apart from having a back seat, daytime running lights and air bags it's the functional equivalent of my old first-gen Honda CRX. (I replaced the suspension with a sportier variant to make it a bit more fun, but other than that, it's stock.) 

And it works for me. Some ladies carry a .45 and some ladies carry a little .22 mousegun and both are very happy with their choices. I drive a mousecar. Another lady might like a big Ford saloon car or SUV, but a little import vehicle that seriously looks like you plug its' antenna into your laptop's USB slot and stick two giant AAs in its' belly to make it run works for me and I didn't have to replace all my tools with SAE ones when I bought the thing. Nobody will ever steal it for parts like you see with Hondas and nobody will ever challenge me to a drag race in it like you see with certain Fords.

When it dies, becomes impractical for my family size or my kid sister finally learns to drive, I will replace it with either a Prius C or a Honda Fit, I think. The Chevy Cruze just felt cheap and wobbly in the test drive and Fords are just so annoying for repairs. If I feel like driving something sporty, I rent a sports car for the weekend. If I need a huge cargo-hauler, I either use husband's van or rent a pickup. My ass is not special enough to merit anything fancier for the drive between home, work and grocery store, but I do like import engines because I am used to doing their maintenance. A domestic car would mean I'd have to relearn it all, and I simply can't be arsed until I see ten-year-old domestics in the mechanical condition and going for the prices of ten-year-old Asian makes.

That, and with what I've saved in gas, maintenance and initial price, I almost have enough for my first experimental light sport aircraft. Who gives a shiat if your commute car is boring if it means you can freakin' fly?!
 
2013-10-30 12:11:05 AM  

Chevello: Sin_City_Superhero: Chevello: Sin_City_Superhero: Back in the day, a smallblock Chevy engine had to be rebuilt after about 100,000 - 150,000 miles. The LS-style engines that GM has been using since the early 90's are just getting 'broken-in' at that point, and can easily last well over 250,000 before needing to be overhauled. When you factor in stuff like direct injection, constantly-variable valve timing, cylinder deactivation, forced induction, water-methanol injection, and electronic tuning packages, the current crop of American engines are pretty damn good. They are capable of producing lots of power, while being much more environmentally friendly than in previous years.

It is a shame though, that the American auto manufacturers can't 'stick the landing' with the electronic gadgetry.

That's funny because I'll be replacing the 100K mile 307 in my '72 with a junkyard 6.0 LS this spring. I'll be looking for engines with ~150K on them. Just about everything on the 307 is worn out, not just rotted from sitting.

/apparently that's when the rings are loosened up just right for adding boost
//forward slashies for performance

You can get an LQ4 from a junkyard for well under 3 grand. That's what I'd look into...

When the tax return arrives, I'm on it. Either LKQ or car-part has 5.3s for as low as 400, and I've seen  6.0s for 800-1200. I'm sure the lower priced units come with less stuff, so I'll be looking higher to get a more complete setup. I've heard of them arriving complete with harness, gas pedal and computer for under 2K.


You will, most likely, need to re-flash the PCM. Factor in about $350 - $500 for that
 
2013-10-30 12:20:34 AM  

Prophet of Loss: Marcus Aurelius: Prophet of Loss: Parents bought a Chrysler 500. Six years on, its falling apart.

I bought a Chrysler 300 back in 2000.  Six years later it was costing $4k a year to keep on the road when the front windows fell out.

Think about that.  The front windows falling out of a car.  How bad does your build quality have to be for the windows to fall out of the car during normal use?

Meanwhile, I have a 10 year old Camry that has been through a fairly major accident but is still ticking along, mostly trouble free.


The car I had before the 300 was a 1991 Camry V6 in silver with matching trim and wheel flares.  0-60 in under 10 seconds!  I had 130,000 miles on it when things that made me want to kill my second ex-wife and dump her in a compost heap intervened.


Today an Acura is nice if you're under six feet tall.  Half the people I know are five ten or better.  And I'm six three.  So I go with the Infiniti G37.  Used, coming off lease.
 
2013-10-30 12:36:36 AM  
BohemianGraham: picture

I really don't get why car manufacturers don't have colored buttons. You're trying to distract the driver LESS, not  more.
/we're having the digital vs analog display argument in cars again, just formatted slightly different
 
2013-10-30 01:56:14 AM  

StrandedInAZ: My Nissan's Nav/Stereo system is a touch screen. There are no knobs, but there are a couple of buttons - I think for volume and to switch the Nav off and on. I hate it. When the sun hits it at certain angle (which happens a lot in AZ), I can barely even see the thing. I would have been perfectly content not to have this stereo, but there was some other option I wanted (maybe the sunroof?) that came packaged with it. I love my car, but I hate the system in it. I keep telling myself I need to replace the audio system with one I like, but I have a problem tossing out something I paid for that still works.

I hate that options are always packaged now. I know they do it because it'd be damn expensive to offer every single option by itself, but the packages they put together often make no sense. Just because you want one thing doesn't mean you'll necessarily want another. I had a Mazda a few years ago that required me to have leather seats if I wanted a V6 (don't know if they're still doing that). I live in the desert where it's crazy hot in the summer, and I hate leather seats. But I much preferred the V6 to the 4 cylinder when I test drove the car. So I got the V6 with the leather seats, which I regretted every time it was hot outside.


Much like the locking gas cap problem above, cloth car seat covers are available at many fine auto parts stores.
 
2013-10-30 09:05:53 AM  

Champion of the Sun: kregh99: What I keep hearing from US automakers is "We're just as good as Toyota/Nissan/etc."  What they don't get is that even if you're just as good, I still have zero motivation to switch.  What I want is "better than...", and a quantifiable, verifiable "better than," not just "we think we're just awesome and you should too!"

/ drives a Prius
// 145,000 miles and still runs like a champ
/// suck it GM

But haven't the domestics been routinely been beating imports for reliability and satisfaction for a decade? And it's mostly morons who are still occupying a 1990's mindset on this kind of thing? And whenever the imports beat out domestics, its mostly on stupid shiat like infotainment systems? And of course, they're still comparing luxury and basic badges from all makers like they're equivalent? Not you of course. 145,000 miles is super impressive. Most cars crap out around eight thousand or so.

/if someone could show how a corolla was #1 in America and ignore all the crashes to try to disprove my point, that'd be great.


There is also past history.  Every American car I have owned has been a piece of shiat.  Every japanese car I have owned has gone more than 100,000 just keeping it in gas and oil.

So why should I switch again?
 
2013-10-30 10:18:29 AM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I work for a Chrysler dealership, and I own the 2013 Dodge Dart (SXT with the tech package). The sound system has some pretty cool stuff (like a volume adjuster that automatically increases the volume based on RPM to keep engine noise down) if you play around with it, but the user interface is bulky as crap.

It's very clearly designed by marketers to show off all the options rather than for maximum efficiency. Once I set things the way I liked and focused on one screen, the issue largely solved itself because I can do steering wheel controls and voice recognition to jump to new songs. That being said, the car itself is fun to drive and shows off that the Italians actually give a damn about building stuff (even if the primary motivation is to buy out the unions and pour 100% of the American profit to subsidize Fiat brands).

Chrysler did suck for a long time (Daimler didn't give a crap about anything other than luxury sedans and Cerberus focused on short term gutting and fancy warranty options, so I've heard). They've improved a lot in a very short period of time (especially on the back-end, for finance and organizational efficiency - where I work). Consumer Reports, for me, has never been a good voice of tech because if the judge is too dumb to use something properly, it loses points.


Speed senstive volume control is new for Chrysler? My 2006, just above base model F150 has that.
 
2013-10-30 10:49:23 AM  

majestic: Speed senstive volume control is new for Chrysler? My 2006, just above base model F150 has that.


So did my 2005 Corolla until I swapped out the factory CD player.
 
2013-10-30 01:26:25 PM  

majestic: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I work for a Chrysler dealership, and I own the 2013 Dodge Dart (SXT with the tech package). The sound system has some pretty cool stuff (like a volume adjuster that automatically increases the volume based on RPM to keep engine noise down) if you play around with it, but the user interface is bulky as crap.

It's very clearly designed by marketers to show off all the options rather than for maximum efficiency. Once I set things the way I liked and focused on one screen, the issue largely solved itself because I can do steering wheel controls and voice recognition to jump to new songs. That being said, the car itself is fun to drive and shows off that the Italians actually give a damn about building stuff (even if the primary motivation is to buy out the unions and pour 100% of the American profit to subsidize Fiat brands).

Chrysler did suck for a long time (Daimler didn't give a crap about anything other than luxury sedans and Cerberus focused on short term gutting and fancy warranty options, so I've heard). They've improved a lot in a very short period of time (especially on the back-end, for finance and organizational efficiency - where I work). Consumer Reports, for me, has never been a good voice of tech because if the judge is too dumb to use something properly, it loses points.

Speed senstive volume control is new for Chrysler? My 2006, just above base model F150 has that.


I had a 2000 Chevy Blazer with that.  I believe they called it speed controlled volume.  It was pretty much the only thing that didn't break on that truck.
 
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