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14139 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2013 at 11:04 AM (24 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:    more»

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Dweck and her colleagues then tried to convince a group of poor minority junior high school students that intelligence is highly malleable and can be developed by hard work...that learning changes the brain by forming new...connections and that students are in charge of this change process.

Edward James Olmos did it!

I don't need math because I english good.

That's right: we're better than normal -- we're abnormal!

I remember when I first feared math.  It was third grade, when we were learning multiplication tables.  I couldn't remember them and fell behind the rest of the class.  By the time my teacher and parents intervened, the damage was done.  I dreaded math class.   It didn't help that I absolutely loved reading class, which I excelled at.   Go figure.

I carried this fear of math all through school, and avoided it at the college level as much as I could.  Hence why I was an anthro major, lololol.

I'm going to lobby congress to pass a law making pi equal to exactly3. Fractions are just to hard to deal with.

smells_like_meat: I'm going to lobby congress to pass a law making pi equal to exactly3. Fractions are just to hard to deal with.

Pi is, by virtue of being irrational, definitively *not* a fraction.

Gecko Gingrich: smells_like_meat: I'm going to lobby congress to pass a law making pi equal to exactly3. Fractions are just to hard to deal with.

Pi is, by virtue of being irrational, definitively *not* a fraction.

My point exactly.

I was told there would be no math people.

I submit that those stupid internet math quizzes whose answer depends on memorizing precedence rules - you know the ones I'm talking about - do more to make people hate math than 100,000 "math is hard" barbie dolls ever could.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice!

I'm sorry the self-fulfulling prophecy stuff is bullsh*t, at least early on. I was always good at math, my parents never drilled me, I just excelled at it. I was the second youngest kid in my class too. It wasn't self-fulfilling. It was just easy for me, for a long time.

Until I got to multivariate calculus, then I was like f*ck that.

I do agree with the theory that the more you challenge your mind the smarter you can be. The brain is after all mostly just a big ol muscle.

Good teachers also help, especially at the collegiate level. I had some terrible math instructors in college, not only did they not speak English well but they acted like it was the easiest thing in the world and intimidated the classrooms.

I have also always considered arithmatic to not be the same as math.

I have alsways been slow at adding\subtracting, multiplication, etc.

Howver when it came to Calculus, Dif EQ, Physics problems It just flowed,  I still needed a calculator to to do the computations,  but problems never stumped me.

There are 10 types of people in the world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

/semi-related?

raerae1980: I carried this fear of math all through school,

This supports my theory that people that are bad at math are just chicken shiats.

/not really

kbronsito: Dweck and her colleagues then tried to convince a group of poor minority junior high school students that intelligence is highly malleable and can be developed by hard work...that learning changes the brain by forming new...connections and that students are in charge of this change process.

[images.huffingtonpost.com image 400x300]

Edward James Olmos did it!

And then had to spend the rest of the time fighting fracking toasters. See, it not always a good result.

phaseolus: I submit that those stupid internet math quizzes whose answer depends on memorizing precedence rules - you know the ones I'm talking about - do more to make people hate math than 100,000 "math is hard" barbie dolls ever could.

They usually base these 'tests' on mnemonic poems that aren't applicable to the deliberately ambiguous equations they provide.  They want you to say, "the little poem I memorized says division comes before multiplication, so..." completely ignoring how the equation is written, or the fact that one of the operations had to come first in the stupid poem, even though they are the same operation, if written differently.

ronaprhys: There are 10 types of people in the world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

/semi-related?

There are 11 people. Those who understand unary numbers and those who do not.

I never prepared for shiat and always had perfect scores on my math exams through high school and early college. shiat's easy as fark.

Maddox already covered this. His assessment of mathly-challenged people is as credible as it gets.

I have my kids doing supplemental math at home via an online program (aleks.com if anyone is interested). I started because my daughter, who is pretty bright, was struggling.

Fast forward, she went from elementary to middle school and scored higher on the placement tests than anyone in her school and is now in pre AP math.

The biggest change I have seen is in her confidence. She is in sixth grade but in the online program she is doing seventh grade work. This means at school everything is too easy for her and she is happy to breeze through the homework and ace the tests.

I kid you not, she now tells people math is her favorite subject.

Math people?

Love is a matter of chemistry.
Sex is a matter of physics.

bdub77: I'm sorry the self-fulfulling prophecy stuff is bullsh*t, at least early on. I was always good at math, my parents never drilled me, I just excelled at it. I was the second youngest kid in my class too. It wasn't self-fulfilling. It was just easy for me, for a long time.

Until I got to multivariate calculus, then I was like f*ck that.

I do agree with the theory that the more you challenge your mind the smarter you can be. The brain is after all mostly just a big ol muscle.

Good teachers also help, especially at the collegiate level. I had some terrible math instructors in college, not only did they not speak English well but they acted like it was the easiest thing in the world and intimidated the classrooms.

Yeah! Who needs decades of psychological research, I have an ANECDOTE! Double-blind experimental methods are for suckers!

According to TFA, "The well-prepared kids, not realizing that the B students were simply unprepared, assume that they are "math people," and work hard in the future, cementing their advantage."  But according to this article, students who believe that their success is due to natural talent instead of hard work, actually avoid challenges -- or are even afraid to work hard, for fear it will show that they're not really talented.  I wonder how you reconcile this views.

phaseolus: I submit that those stupid internet math quizzes whose answer depends on memorizing precedence rules - you know the ones I'm talking about - do more to make people hate math than 100,000 "math is hard" barbie dolls ever could.

I don't know those quizzes, and were I a girl I never would be taking online math quizzes during formative barbie years.

I am definitely a "math" person, from simple arithmetic worksheets in 3rd grade through college (BS Mathematics) it just always made sense to me.  My brother, however, was (and still is) a self-fulfilling prophecy type.  He never got it, and no amount of trying could make it work for him.

I remember seeing an interview with Michael J. Fox about math.  He said that he hated math as a student.  He said, "2+2=4, got it, let's move on", and I was thinking, "yes, but 2+2 is ALWAYS 4*, and that's really cool".  In that moment I truly understood the difference between math people and non-math people.

*except for very large values of 2

/rim-shot

There are three kinds of people out there.
Those that know math.
And those that do not.

bdub77: I'm sorry the self-fulfulling prophecy stuff is bullsh*t, at least early on. I was always good at math, my parents never drilled me, I just excelled at it. I was the second youngest kid in my class too. It wasn't self-fulfilling. It was just easy for me, for a long time.

Until I got to multivariate calculus, then I was like f*ck that.

I do agree with the theory that the more you challenge your mind the smarter you can be. The brain is after all mostly just a big ol muscle.

Good teachers also help, especially at the collegiate level. I had some terrible math instructors in college, not only did they not speak English well but they acted like it was the easiest thing in the world and intimidated the classrooms.

Disagree about how self fulfilling prophecies are bullshiat.

But I was the same with math. I had no interest in trying after years of smooth sailing. Then I had a professor who spoke almost no english and was a horrible teacher (and fark off phds, I give the university my money to teach me-I don't need to be taken by the hand, but I shouldn't be self teaching and paying thousands for a guy who takes five minutes to say class dismissed).

At that point I pretty much ceased my advancements in math. But I am doing fine on another career path so meh.

Yeah, pretty much.
I wish I had figured that out before college. Nothing motivates one to study quite like paying for classes yourself. Before that I just kinda stopped at "fark this it's too hard". Oddly enough pre Algebra was actually more difficult for me than Differential Equations.

This is true of a lot of develop-able skills.  One of the most important things you could ever teach to a student is that practice is the mother of all skills.

I only look at pictures in the articles and clearly the difference is being Asian.

Ambitwistor: According to TFA, "The well-prepared kids, not realizing that the B students were simply unprepared, assume that they are "math people," and work hard in the future, cementing their advantage."  But according to this article, students who believe that their success is due to natural talent instead of hard work, actually avoid challenges -- or are even afraid to work hard, for fear it will show that they're not really talented.  I wonder how you reconcile this views.

You find a subject you enjoy and actually want to work hard at, get a degree, wind up in a job mostly unrelated to it that pays too well to quit despite being soul-drainingly boring, and contemplate suicide on a daily basis? :)

gnosis301: This is true of a lot of develop-able skills.  One of the most important things you could ever teach to a student is that practice is the mother of all skills.

Proper ass kissing?

bdub77: The brain is after all mostly just a big ol muscle.

So, not so much into the biology thing?

vudukungfu: There are three kinds of people out there.
Those that know math.
And those that do not.

..and the kids that know math get beat up by the kids that don't.

Virginity?  Yes, us math people really know how to multiply if you know what I'm sayin'.

I saw a study a while ago that looked at reasons why girls tended to do worse in math than other subjects. The hypothesis was that social reinforcement that "girls aren't good at math" played a large part. They had two groups, one read a study claiming that women hurt weren't good at math compared to men, the other group just took the test. The group who were told they weren't good at math before the test did considerably worse than their peers.

I'm not going to say 'math isn't hard', because that's a lie. Everyone eventually finds where their stop is with the math bus, even folks who graduate with honors from math majors. But for a lot of people they hit artificial ceilings in their ability because they don't get the right encouragement to work at it.

Article's logic is bogus.  I'm a "math person", and never spent so much as a second "studying" or "preparing" for math until higher-end college classes.

ScouserDuck: I only look at pictures in the articles and clearly the difference is being Asian.

Sounds like someone here has never graded university math or physics exams.

/Asians fail math and physics, too.
//I've seen it firsthand many times

While it may seem obvious that a kid who thinks he is perma-dumb won't try, but the same logic can be applied to kids who are told they're very intelligent.

A kid whose ass is constantly kissed and told that he is really intelligent, and has 'SO MUCH POTENTIAL' will start to believe that, and will begin to expect results without much work. If the kid actually is pretty smart, he'll get those results. The problem is that you wind up with adults who have a skewed view of how much work any given project actually entails.

skinink: How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice!

Completely agrees with you:

/Reasonably good movie, so long as the kid is completely edited out.

whatsupchuck: Virginity?  Yes, us math people really know how to multiply if you know what I'm sayin'.

First you've got to divide the legs and raise to the power.

vudukungfu: There are three kinds of people out there.
Those that know math.
And those that do not.

We call the second group Republicans

Target Builder: I saw a study a while ago that looked at reasons why girls tended to do worse in math than other subjects. The hypothesis was that social reinforcement that "girls aren't good at math" played a large part.

I think there's a fairly substantial literature on this by now.  Google "girls stereotype threat" and "math or STEM".

Music theory is the best. All the fun of math with almost no pesky practical applications!

ronaprhys: There are 10 types of people in the world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

UrukHaiGuyz: Music theory is the best. All the fun of math with almost no pesky practical applications!

Watch out for this guy, he can multiply and do logarithms. With a calculator.  Then ignore the results.

I guess the whole "well prepared" theory - those kids whose parents stressed math - didn't apply to my New Math generation of the 1960s-70s.  My parents were told not to help when it came to math because their old ways would confuse the new ways.  Turns out, the new ways just confused the shiat out of most of us anyway.

batlock666: ronaprhys: There are 10 types of people in the world.  Those who understand binary and those who don't.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who didn't expect this joke to be in base 3.

I like it.

That is actually four types of people though. AB AA BB and BA.

There's only one key difference between "math people" and "normal people".

I'm not sure exactly why, but the first thing that came to my mind was this:

smells_like_meat: I'm going to lobby congress to pass a law making pi equal to exactly3. Fractions are just to hard to deal with.

You would be better off lobbying congress to require the metric system of measurement.

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