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(The Register)   No surprise there: "Coding is suitable only for exceptionally dull weirdos"   (theregister.co.uk) divider line 196
    More: Obvious, line coding, I-CT, religious education, Algebra, programming languages  
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4074 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Oct 2013 at 9:40 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-28 08:34:49 AM
MSG NR 51 CK 93 1028 1234 BT
NNTAT ILWAX OOPDE NIWIJ OGHOY  HSRSN OHVYE ONUCT LGLEX EOCIN
APXQN ANIER DGXRE OMXED EDRLE  NOTAK OAVIS XNNLF IDT
AR K
 
2013-10-28 08:35:14 AM
Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.
 
2013-10-28 08:47:40 AM
This probably explains why I suck at coding.  I'm just too damn interesting.

/or impatient.
 
2013-10-28 08:55:19 AM

EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.


I like how they equate it with being boring and dull.  Because you can't have a skill and be social as well.
 
2013-10-28 08:56:15 AM

EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.


For those times when an application springs a leak at 4 in the morning?
 
2013-10-28 08:56:54 AM
What a cockwomble.
 
2013-10-28 09:02:48 AM
Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.
 
2013-10-28 09:14:24 AM

EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.


Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.

Also, there is this:

There's a reason most startup co-founders are "the charming ideas guy" paired with "the tech genius".

The only one that jumps to mind immediately is Apple, but even then Steve Jobs had some technical background.  And he wasn't very charming.
 
2013-10-28 09:16:25 AM

I_Am_Weasel: EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.

For those times when an application springs a leak at 4 in the morning?


They can literally do that.
 
2013-10-28 09:17:03 AM

dittybopper: Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.


Agreed.  Hell, even an Intro to Philosophy: Logic requirement would be nice.  Or Discrete Math.  Something that involves how to form a conclusion based on evidence rather than what some talking head told them.
 
2013-10-28 09:17:54 AM
i.imgur.com

What the life of the party looks like.
 
2013-10-28 09:17:54 AM

dittybopper: They can literally do that.


God I hate memory leaks.
 
2013-10-28 09:25:21 AM

dittybopper: EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.

Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.


And something that's required even if you use model-driven or other development tools like CASE.
 
2013-10-28 09:26:32 AM
Although speaking of CASE tools, which are increasingly falling out of favor, I have to laugh at how not more than 10 years ago they were still being touted as capable of 100% code generation.
 
2013-10-28 09:36:36 AM

RedPhoenix122: dittybopper: Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.

Agreed.  Hell, even an Intro to Philosophy: Logic requirement would be nice.  Or Discrete Math.  Something that involves how to form a conclusion based on evidence rather than what some talking head told them.


Personally, I think ever single student should have a class called something like "Application of arithmetic to every day life".

It would consist of nothing but word problems where the student has to figure out real-life stuff and the optimal answer can be derived by addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.

I don't know how many times people around me, including some very smart people, haven't been able to recognize how to find the optimum solution to a problem when all that was required to solve it was simple, elementary-school level arithmetic.

The problem isn't that they couldn't do it, they just didn't recognize that there was a way to do it.
 
2013-10-28 09:43:09 AM

dittybopper: RedPhoenix122: dittybopper: Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.

Agreed.  Hell, even an Intro to Philosophy: Logic requirement would be nice.  Or Discrete Math.  Something that involves how to form a conclusion based on evidence rather than what some talking head told them.

Personally, I think ever single student should have a class called something like "Application of arithmetic to every day life".

It would consist of nothing but word problems where the student has to figure out real-life stuff and the optimal answer can be derived by addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.

I don't know how many times people around me, including some very smart people, haven't been able to recognize how to find the optimum solution to a problem when all that was required to solve it was simple, elementary-school level arithmetic.

The problem isn't that they couldn't do it, they just didn't recognize that there was a way to do it.


Separate class seems kind of odd.  That should be part of learning the math itself.  But I agree, it often isn't.
The math books my high school used had some of the worst word problems ever.  "Lancelot and Guinevere sat under a tree finding derivatives.  Guinevere asked Lancelot to find the derivative of f(x) = x3ex.  What answer did Lancelot give?"
 
2013-10-28 09:49:48 AM
That's hardly true. I've met many very interesting weirdos in my decades doing software development.
 
2013-10-28 09:50:51 AM

Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: [i.imgur.com image 153x156]

What the life of the party looks like.


Is it a FIST party?  'cause that's one punch-able face if I've ever seen one.
 
2013-10-28 09:52:43 AM

serial_crusher: The math books my high school used had some of the worst word problems ever.  "Lancelot and Guinevere sat under a tree finding derivatives.  Guinevere asked Lancelot to find the derivative of f(x) = x3ex.  What answer did Lancelot give?"


"How is babby formed?"
 
2013-10-28 09:55:37 AM

serial_crusher: dittybopper: RedPhoenix122: dittybopper: Not only that, it teaches you how to look at problems in a logical fashion.  And logic is something sorely missing from a large segment of the population.

Agreed.  Hell, even an Intro to Philosophy: Logic requirement would be nice.  Or Discrete Math.  Something that involves how to form a conclusion based on evidence rather than what some talking head told them.

Personally, I think ever single student should have a class called something like "Application of arithmetic to every day life".

It would consist of nothing but word problems where the student has to figure out real-life stuff and the optimal answer can be derived by addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.

I don't know how many times people around me, including some very smart people, haven't been able to recognize how to find the optimum solution to a problem when all that was required to solve it was simple, elementary-school level arithmetic.

The problem isn't that they couldn't do it, they just didn't recognize that there was a way to do it.

Separate class seems kind of odd.  That should be part of learning the math itself.  But I agree, it often isn't.
The math books my high school used had some of the worst word problems ever.  "Lancelot and Guinevere sat under a tree finding derivatives.  Guinevere asked Lancelot to find the derivative of f(x) = x3ex.  What answer did Lancelot give?"


Most people find math boring and/or confusing, a course in logic seems better as more context ed examples socially and historically could be used, would also make learning math easier as a side benifit
 
2013-10-28 09:58:05 AM

serial_crusher: Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.


The elephant in the room no one speaks of is that coding has a zero margin for error.  If you're a farmer, life's tough but nothing needs to be perfect (frankly if you're worried about perfection you're not going to last).  If you're a teacher, despite all the bullshiat you deal with it's pretty much an expectation that you're not going to make a difference to every student.  If you're a mechanic, there are tolerances for everything.  If you're a cop you can get away with just about anything.  Coding?  Something as simple as typing "=" instead of "==" and your program might break in spectacular fashion.

But every time they try to swell the ranks of programmers (and every damn time it's more to deflate wages than any real concerns about lack of qualified applicants), whether is through domestic recruiting or offshoring or H1-B visas, the industry hemorrhages money as they have to clean up the work of the thousands of people who grew up on a mantra of "close enough".

You HAVE be a stickler for detail if you're a coder.  More than anything, that's the #1 requirement.  All the logic in the world isn't going to help if your work isn't 99.99% accurate.  Consider even with that ratio, a million lines of code is going to average a hundred bugs.  You think Johnny Don't-Sweat-The-Little-Stuff is going to cut it?  Extroverts tend to shun details, so it's really no wonder that coding shops tend to accumulate people who tend to lack social skills as a group.
 
2013-10-28 10:00:46 AM

serial_crusher: Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.


100% this. My girlfriend is teaching math resource for upper elementary students who would fit in to the age brackets they are talking about. Teaching 11 year olds actual programming languages might be a bit much but at least here "algorithms" are already one of the major branches of the math curriculum. Of course they never teach the kids the word algorithm, but the problem solving element of algorithm design is definitely there. Very basic computer science stuff might actually enhance math learning in kids because it provides another opportunity to be a bit creative and do a concrete mathematical task.

dittybopper: I don't know how many times people around me, including some very smart people, haven't been able to recognize how to find the optimum solution to a problem when all that was required to solve it was simple, elementary-school level arithmetic.

The problem isn't that they couldn't do it, they just didn't recognize that there was a way to do it.


Could be your (their) age and where they did their math education. Word-based problem solving is a big part of most math curricula these days. Although I think most of the problems creep in in high school and university. Where people loose a lot of skills they worked on at a very basic level when they were younger. Basic math and math-based reasoning/problem solving type classes should be mandatory in post-secondary education and currently aren't. And high school math, other than the advanced courses which not everyone takes, I have no idea what they focus on these days.
 
2013-10-28 10:02:34 AM

RobotSpider: Barry Lyndon's Annuity Cheque: [i.imgur.com image 153x156]

What the life of the party looks like.

Is it a FIST party?  'cause that's one punch-able face if I've ever seen one.


FISTS has QSO parties, but they call them "sprints".
 
2013-10-28 10:06:14 AM
I am shocked by the number of programmers who don't have basic math skills. Sure they will brag about having a BSCS, but go ask your nearest code monkey about the chain rule or product rule for integration. It's basic calc, but they'll start whining about how they "don't write that kind of code".
 
2013-10-28 10:13:02 AM

serial_crusher: Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.


My god, this.

The best class I ever took for my computer degree was one of the very first, where the teacher, by logical and methodical means, built a pseudo-language from the ground up. I learned more applicable skills in that class than any other. The rest of my degree was esoterica and minutiae.
 
2013-10-28 10:20:51 AM
Teaching all children to code software is daft and pointless to The Telegraph blogger...


img.4plebs.org
 
2013-10-28 10:23:21 AM
As a dull weirdo who codes, I resemble that statement.
 
2013-10-28 10:24:09 AM
Most software gets written by a battle of wills between (a) coders who are mediocre social dropouts who are willing to immerse themselves in code but don't have any real skills to bring to the table except a pedantic knowledge of the language and/or libraries and (b) managers who are no smarter than the coders but believe themselves to posess superior interpersonal/business skills, and insist on making technical descisions solely for the purposes of propping up that illusion.

As a result, most software projects get all farked up.

If you actually know how difficult software is to get right (this is a rhetorical qurestion - you the reader most likely aren't smart or exprienced enough) you would know that most practical development operations are about medocre lackwits trying to hide the fact that they are all out of their depth. It's like trying to hide all your enriched uranium shavings by sweeping them into a corner :- sooner or later things are going to blow up on you.
 
2013-10-28 10:30:13 AM

Aidan: serial_crusher: Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.

My god, this.

The best class I ever took for my computer degree was one of the very first, where the teacher, by logical and methodical means, built a pseudo-language from the ground up. I learned more applicable skills in that class than any other. The rest of my degree was esoterica and minutiae.


I'm a former developer and current manager of the support of our development tools.  My BS is in Philosophy where I focused on symbolic logic and philosophy of language.  Turned out to be a nice pairing.

My MS is from a laughable joke of a program, but that's another story.
 
2013-10-28 10:35:39 AM

serial_crusher: not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job


Guys with 5 years experience can't fake their way through the FizzBuzz test. Takes you an hour to finish what should be a 3 minute exercise? And you're asking for $80k? Nope. Most people just aren't programmers. Nothing is going to change that.

/yes, I am a dull weirdo.
 
2013-10-28 10:37:17 AM
Software engineering is a form of art coupled with a good bit of science. If it's boring and mechanical - you are not doing it right.
 
2013-10-28 10:37:33 AM

THE GREAT NAME: mediocre social dropouts who are willing to immerse themselves in code but don't have any real skills


I should have said "occasionally willing to immerse themselves"

The "magical process" by which "geeks" produce code is like a sausage factory - the more closely you look into what's really going on, the less appealing is the end result.
 
2013-10-28 10:39:42 AM

RedPhoenix122: EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.

I like how they equate it with being boring and dull.  Because you can't have a skill and be social as well.


If there were a class of parasites, "journalists", salesmen and marketers who had to justify their existence in the industry of plumbing that involved spending 70% of their day on the golf course,  I'm sure they would create a archetype of plumbers as autistic zombies who can't string two words together.
 
2013-10-28 10:42:04 AM

serial_crusher: Needs to be taught as a way of building logical thinking skills, not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job.


Yep. I know how to change the oil on my car, but that doesn't make me a mechanic. It seems that nowadays, everyone who has ever "coded" anything now describes themselves as a technological genius.
 
2013-10-28 10:45:49 AM
My older brother loves to code. He just made his own Linux desktop OS. He also coaches Lacrosse and H.S. football. You can love to code and have other non-related hobbies.
 
2013-10-28 10:47:36 AM

duckpoopy: I am shocked by the number of programmers who don't have basic math skills. Sure they will brag about having a BSCS, but go ask your nearest code monkey about the chain rule or product rule for integration. It's basic calc, but they'll start whining about how they "don't write that kind of code".

 You're not very quick, are you?  You realize that these are two different fields, right?  And that it would make just as much sense for me to complain about mathematicians that write shiatty inefficient code?  And that the complaint would be retarded?  Almost as retarded as conflating "basic math" and "basic calc".
As a programmer, I've never once needed to implement analytic integration.  Spending the time to keep those skills up would mean I have less time to spend on other more relevant skills.  Ironically, I've implemented numerical integration numerous times but had to teach myself, as my mathematics professors never even mentioned them (with the exception of a fifteen minutes for riemann sums, which are just common sense and don't say much about efficient implementation).
 
2013-10-28 10:50:05 AM

dittybopper: I_Am_Weasel: EvilEgg: Coding is a niche, mechanical skill, a bit like plumbing or car repair.

In other words a really handy thing to know.

For those times when an application springs a leak at 4 in the morning?

They can literally do that.


Best of all is that those actually fixed in the short term by turning it off and then back on again.
 
2013-10-28 10:50:13 AM
His blog sucks, apparently.
 
2013-10-28 10:52:33 AM

NewWorldDan: Guys with 5 years experience can't fake their way through the FizzBuzz test.


for i from 1 to 100 do
if i = 1, print 1
if i = 2, print 2
if i = 3, print Fizz
if i = 4, print 4
if i = 5, print Buzz
etc
 
2013-10-28 10:54:38 AM
I got two out of three, bummer for me :(
 
2013-10-28 10:56:17 AM
10 PRINT "FARK YOU ";
20 GOTO 10
 
2013-10-28 10:56:44 AM

zyrian: Software engineering is a form of art coupled with a good bit of science.


What's interesting is, when people describe software engineering, they almost never seem to describe it as a form of engineering, as simply the practical application of knowledge.
 
2013-10-28 10:59:16 AM

bmr68: My older brother loves to code. He just made his own Linux desktop OS. He also coaches Lacrosse and H.S. football. You can love to code and have other non-related hobbies.


kind of a bright line distinction to be made here - he's programming what he wants to program.

i swear to zombie jesus taking on programming as a career is an invitation to have your soul incrementally removed one line at a time, your sanity spent in fits of trying to comprehend constantly shifting demands that make less sense every time they're altered, and your creativity sapped out your eyeballs with hour after hour of maintaining ancient code that is organizationally treated like equal parts sorcery and constitutional law.
 
2013-10-28 11:01:08 AM

duckpoopy: I am shocked by the number of programmers who don't have basic math skills. Sure they will brag about having a BSCS, but go ask your nearest code monkey about the chain rule or product rule for integration. It's basic calc, but they'll start whining about how they "don't write that kind of code".


You do realize that computer programming almost exclusively deals with discrete mathematics, right?  A computer programmer is going to run across a problem that requires calculus to solve extremely rarely.  Your complaint is like complaining that people take Spanish in high school, but can't remember how to properly conjugate a verb 10 years later.
 
2013-10-28 11:09:12 AM

falkone32: duckpoopy: I am shocked by the number of programmers who don't have basic math skills. Sure they will brag about having a BSCS, but go ask your nearest code monkey about the chain rule or product rule for integration. It's basic calc, but they'll start whining about how they "don't write that kind of code".
 You're not very quick, are you?  You realize that these are two different fields, right?  And that it would make just as much sense for me to complain about mathematicians that write shiatty inefficient code?  And that the complaint would be retarded?  Almost as retarded as conflating "basic math" and "basic calc".
As a programmer, I've never once needed to implement analytic integration.  Spending the time to keep those skills up would mean I have less time to spend on other more relevant skills.  Ironically, I've implemented numerical integration numerous times but had to teach myself, as my mathematics professors never even mentioned them (with the exception of a fifteen minutes for riemann sums, which are just common sense and don't say much about efficient implementation).


I've never seen anyone undermine their own point so thorougly. Congratulations!
 
2013-10-28 11:14:13 AM

rumpelstiltskin: zyrian: Software engineering is a form of art coupled with a good bit of science.

What's interesting is, when people describe software engineering, they almost never seem to describe it as a form of engineering, as simply the practical application of knowledge.


You have a good point here. It is engineering. It just happens to be difficult because of the complexity, the abstractness, the immaturity of tools etc. People want it to be something else so they can hide from the difficultness. They pretend it's something left-field which they alone posess the magic fu to grok. Then they screw up.
 
2013-10-28 11:16:02 AM
...and physicists who research nonlinear problems.

/we physicists write our own code
 
2013-10-28 11:18:38 AM
dittybopper:

I don't know how many times people around me, including some very smart people, haven't been able to recognize how to find the optimum solution to a problem when all that was required to solve it was simple, elementary-school level arithmetic.


Set the derivative equal to zero and solve?
 
2013-10-28 11:19:33 AM

NewWorldDan: serial_crusher: not a way to give kids the basic info they need to fake their way through an entry level programming job

Guys with 5 years experience can't fake their way through the FizzBuzz test. Takes you an hour to finish what should be a 3 minute exercise? And you're asking for $80k? Nope. Most people just aren't programmers. Nothing is going to change that.

/yes, I am a dull weirdo.


is that FizzBuzz thing for real?  I don't consider myself a "programmer" at a professional level, but that seems a very easy thing to program.  How can you have years of programming experience and not know how to program something similar to FizzBuzz?  is it they don't know that if something is divisible by 15 it is also divisible by 5 and 3?  Or they don't know how modulo division works?

/math guy so seems obvious to me
 
2013-10-28 11:20:59 AM
Anyone can learn to code., but then again, most people are exceptionally dull weirdos.

Fewer people can learn to problem solve with that code.
 
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