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(Sauk Valley News)   Father of a straight-A student who was expelled because he brought a large hunting knife with him to school is suing the school district for having the audacity to follow through with promised punishment   (saukvalley.com) divider line 112
    More: Fail, Springfield School, school districts, Springfield, State Journal-Register, punishments, students  
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5551 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Oct 2013 at 4:11 AM (36 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-27 11:56:03 PM
If he's a "straight A student" he should be capable of understanding that you don't bring drug paraphernalia to school.
 
2013-10-27 11:57:13 PM

Bucky Katt: If he's a "straight A student" he should be capable of understanding that you don't bring drug paraphernalia to school.


A hunting knife is drug paraphenilla now?

What a gyp.
 
2013-10-28 12:11:36 AM
Zero tolerance and mandatory minimums are both solutions for the simple minded desperate to look competent.
 
2013-10-28 12:24:10 AM
THE KNIFE WAS IN A TRUNK!?

Don't even sue. Send in the cops to the administrators' homes with warrants to find any and all offenses.
 
2013-10-28 12:32:04 AM
the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?
 
2013-10-28 12:37:10 AM

Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?


Why the hell were they in his car?
 
2013-10-28 01:26:04 AM

doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?


School parking is generally considered a 4th Amendment-free zone.  Also drug war lol.

/for the children
 
2013-10-28 01:35:46 AM

Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?


Because straight-A students tend not to be homicidal?
 
2013-10-28 04:06:59 AM

Fubini: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Because straight-A students tend not to be homicidal?


Well, we're not talking about homicide, are we?  We're talking about possession of a knife.

Why would a kids grades be a factor in deciding punishment for possessing a knife?
 
2013-10-28 04:14:30 AM
How the hell would you just "find" something in someone's trunk?
 
2013-10-28 04:17:41 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: How the hell would you just "find" something in someone's trunk?


The drug dog alerted in his car, I'm guessing.
 
2013-10-28 04:20:49 AM

doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?


A hunting knife is part of my cold-weather survival kit.  It was a part of my parents' survival kits as well, which means I brought a hunting knife "to school" every time I drove one of my parents' cars in high school.
 
2013-10-28 04:24:11 AM
I have a 9' bagel cutter in my truck....it's made by Buck.

www.knifehog.com

/work wont let me carry a weapon.
 
2013-10-28 04:24:24 AM

CPT Ethanolic: Zero tolerance and mandatory minimums are both solutions for the simple minded desperate to look competent.


YMMV. Applying the same law / policy / regulation equally to all may be an extreme, but it's one that most police departments and district attorneys should be swinging much farther toward. Instead, what you get is "Oh, he's a football player / rich white boy / LEO / etc? He doesn't deserve to have his life ruined by something silly like rape charges..."
 
2013-10-28 04:24:52 AM
CSS: I went to school in the mornings with my hunting rifle in the gun rack in the back window of my locked truck and a 4-wheeler,  dead deer, and my bloody camo in the bed. No one said jack shiat.

/ Principal congratulated me when he saw me shucking my hunting clothes and came over to investigate.
 
2013-10-28 04:26:29 AM

wingedkat: doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?

A hunting knife is part of my cold-weather survival kit.  It was a part of my parents' survival kits as well, which means I brought a hunting knife "to school" every time I drove one of my parents' cars in high school.


Okay, I'll bite... why is a hunting knife needed in a cold-weather survival kit? (Genuinely curious, not sarcastic.)
 
2013-10-28 04:26:41 AM
And woe unto to those gay-A students who think the rules don't apply to them either.
 
2013-10-28 04:28:44 AM

jedikinkoid: Applying the same law / policy / regulation equally to all may be an extreme, but it's one that most police departments and district attorneys should be swinging much farther toward. Instead, what you get is "Oh, he's a football player / rich white boy / LEO / etc? He doesn't deserve to have his life ruined by something silly like rape charges..."


Nice red herring there. Crimes of ignorance cannot reasonably receive a maximum punishment BECAUSE they aren't equivalent to truly injurious crimes like rape.
 
2013-10-28 04:30:45 AM
I would love to know who gave that tip that caused them to search the kid's car.
 
2013-10-28 04:33:59 AM

jedikinkoid: wingedkat: doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?

A hunting knife is part of my cold-weather survival kit.  It was a part of my parents' survival kits as well, which means I brought a hunting knife "to school" every time I drove one of my parents' cars in high school.

Okay, I'll bite... why is a hunting knife needed in a cold-weather survival kit? (Genuinely curious, not sarcastic.)


Hunting knives are generally 10-15 degrees warmer than regular knives. They also fold out nearly into a thermal blanket.
 
2013-10-28 04:34:06 AM
 It said the student had a 5.0089 grade-point average on a 5.0 scale,

See there's the problem right there. No one can do math.
 
2013-10-28 04:35:06 AM

wingedkat: doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?

A hunting knife is part of my cold-weather survival kit.  It was a part of my parents' survival kits as well, which means I brought a hunting knife "to school" every time I drove one of my parents' cars in high school.


In Japanese middle schools every kid is REQUIRED to have a box cutter type knife in their kit.

Why in the hell is it against the rules to have a knife even in your trunk. You car is not school property, it's yours.
 
2013-10-28 04:38:24 AM

jedikinkoid: Okay, I'll bite... why is a hunting knife needed in a cold-weather survival kit? (Genuinely curious, not sarcastic.)


A full tang steel knife between 9-15" is perhaps the most versatile tool on earth. You can do almost anything with one.

www.harborfreight.com
 
2013-10-28 04:42:56 AM
I like the cut of your jib, Mr straight-A student Mueller.

"In more than half of states in the U.S., an employer is legally required to let employees bring their guns to work and keep them in their parked cars."

Remember, when you're 30 and receive a shiatty annual evaluation, you, too, can spice up a slow news day
 
2013-10-28 04:44:10 AM
That's a magnesium fire brick. You see it has a goofy little saw thing on it. Worthless.

A hunting knife can shave the magneisum, make the spark, sure. But it can also cut things up to burn, stab hobos and bears who try to rape you, slice up anything you might want to slice up to cook over the fire (like hobo or bear steak) and pin a rope to a tree to make a tarpaulin tent.
 
HBK
2013-10-28 04:45:45 AM

TripSixes: It said the student had a 5.0089 grade-point average on a 5.0 scale,

See there's the problem right there. No one can do math.


Yeah, it sounds funny, but its pretty common nowadays for kids to have a GPA over 4.0 or 5.0. It's because schools started adjusting GPAs to encourage kids to take honors, gifted and talented, or AP classes. It's to discourage smart kids from taking regular classes rather than honors classes to get a 4.0 (or here, a 5.0). This was a problem, as many high school salutatorians will tell you.

My school was on a 100 point scale. Honors classes were +5 to the raw score; AP classes were +7. So if you got a 95, your grade was adjusted to 100 for and honors class and 102 for an AP class.
 
2013-10-28 04:45:47 AM
I'm so glad I graduated school in the 70's. I don't think I could tolerate all of the 'Zero Tolerance' bullshiat they have today.

As an adult and even with understanding why the policies were put into effect, I think they need to buffer them with compassion and common sense. Most of my graduating class had traces of weed in their cars, but they were straight when they drove into the parking lot and stayed that way all day.

Many of us smoke cigarettes and we'd get caught sneaking a smoke, but most teachers, instead of hauling our arses to the principal, who would kick us out of school, merely confiscated our packs, lectured us on getting caught and sent us on our way. The principal himself caught me with a tin of pipe tobacco in my back pocket and a pipe in my front one and just reminded me not to smoke on the school grounds.

Today, they'd haul the student off in chains.

I keep pointing out that kids are kids and aren't adults and will either do stupid things or will push the limits -- which is what kids do and how they learn and slapping them down for every minor infraction does more harm than good.

On an average day in school, I carried a folding knife in my pocket -- so did almost every other boy. I had a lighter for smokes kept in my briefcase. My car trunk held a bunch of tools along with a machete, often an ax and a folding military shovel. (I camped a lot.)

No one cared so long as I did not drag the machete with me into class.

Kids that hunted had gun racks in the back windows of their trucks and occasionally, one would have a rifle there. Empty, but the shells were usually in the glove box or under the seat. In our world, it was considered cowardly to pull a gun on anyone in a dispute or fight. The same with a knife.

They need to modify these Zero Tolerance Laws and add common sense. Kids are going to make mistakes. The majority will be innocent. Hanging them out to dry for every minor infraction is absolutely the worst thing that can be done.
 
2013-10-28 04:46:08 AM
A knife, drug paraphernalia, traces of suspected marijuana, and golf clubs.

We have a zero tolerance for golf clubs!
 
2013-10-28 04:48:32 AM

jedikinkoid: CPT Ethanolic: Zero tolerance and mandatory minimums are both solutions for the simple minded desperate to look competent.

YMMV. Applying the same law / policy / regulation equally to all may be an extreme, but it's one that most police departments and district attorneys should be swinging much farther toward. Instead, what you get is "Oh, he's a football player / rich white boy / LEO / etc? He doesn't deserve to have his life ruined by something silly like rape charges..."


....there's some distance between "case-by-case discretion on punishment" and "Let's just lock everyone up for 20 years and let the system sort 'em out."

/Vigilance is hard; "zero tolerance" is easy.
 
2013-10-28 04:49:45 AM
According to court records, police with a K-9 dog searched the student's car in the school parking lot on Sept. 27 after receiving a tip that he might have marijuana. A search of the trunk allegedly turned up a collector's "Buffalo Bill" hunting knife inside a backpack, drug paraphernalia with traces of suspected marijuana and golf clubs, court records say.

Sometimes even zero-tolerance can end up with the right result.  Stopped clocks, yada yada.
 
2013-10-28 04:51:54 AM

Rik01: Today, they'd haul the student off in chains.


I don't know about that. Not all teachers are bad. You'd be amazed at what teachers don't see.

I myself have not seen a boy of 16, take off most of his clothes in front of a cheering crowd of other students on graduation day and jump off a bridge and into the pond in front of the school in only tighty whites and a tank top in March. The principal was right there with me, not seeing the same thing with a big ol' smile on his face.
 
2013-10-28 04:54:50 AM

Emposter: According to court records, police with a K-9 dog searched the student's car in the school parking lot on Sept. 27 after receiving a tip that he might have marijuana. A search of the trunk allegedly turned up a collector's "Buffalo Bill" hunting knife inside a backpack, drug paraphernalia with traces of suspected marijuana and golf clubs, court records say.

Sometimes even zero-tolerance can end up with the right result.  Stopped clocks, yada yada.


In my day, we could have made bongs out of the golf clubs and the knife.
 
2013-10-28 04:55:48 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: How the hell would you just "find" something in someone's trunk?


Chances are the "smart" kid told someone, and someone overheard him......who then told on him....we are talking about HS here.
 
2013-10-28 04:56:13 AM

doglover: That's a magnesium fire brick. You see it has a goofy little saw thing on it. Worthless.

A hunting knife can shave the magneisum, make the spark, sure. But it can also cut things up to burn, stab hobos and bears who try to rape you, slice up anything you might want to slice up to cook over the fire (like hobo or bear steak) and pin a rope to a tree to make a tarpaulin tent.


A 9 iron can do all the above -and- tenderize the steaks. Also, après bbq sport and entertainment.
 
2013-10-28 04:59:27 AM

OhioUGrad: Quantum Apostrophe: How the hell would you just "find" something in someone's trunk?

Chances are the "smart" kid told someone, and someone overheard him......who then told on him.... all the cars contain contraband under 2013 American law. We are talking about HS here.



FTFY.
 
2013-10-28 05:03:46 AM

grimlock1972: I would love to know who gave that tip that caused them to search the kid's car.


Rival dealer.
 
2013-10-28 05:11:15 AM
It said the student had a 5.0089 grade-point average on a 5.0 scale

Bullshiat like this makes me reconsider my vague plans to shift my career into recruiting and human resources.

A GPA with 4 motherf*cking decimal places? Out of a scale of 5? So that makes A-5.0, B-4.0, C-3.0, D-2.0, and F-1.
 
2013-10-28 05:16:49 AM

Poowaddins: CSS: I went to school in the mornings with my hunting rifle in the gun rack in the back window of my locked truck and a 4-wheeler,  dead deer, and my bloody camo in the bed. No one said jack shiat.

/ Principal congratulated me when he saw me shucking my hunting clothes and came over to investigate.




This! When I went to school having a rifle or a shotgun in your car was no big deal. Then again I grew up in rural Missouri.

rnatalie: A knife, drug paraphernalia, traces of suspected marijuana, and golf clubs.

We have a zero tolerance for golf clubs!


Why was golf clubs mentioned? Are they banned?
 
2013-10-28 05:19:36 AM
How well does it slay ogres?
 
2013-10-28 05:19:56 AM

jedikinkoid: wingedkat: doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?

A hunting knife is part of my cold-weather survival kit.  It was a part of my parents' survival kits as well, which means I brought a hunting knife "to school" every time I drove one of my parents' cars in high school.

Okay, I'll bite... why is a hunting knife needed in a cold-weather survival kit? (Genuinely curious, not sarcastic.)


It's always good to know who won't be around long competing for food and shelter after a major storm or other catastrophe. (Genuinely relieved, not sarcastic)
 
2013-10-28 05:25:48 AM

jedikinkoid: Okay, I'll bite... why is a hunting knife needed in a cold-weather survival kit? (Genuinely curious, not sarcastic.)


In case you need to spend the night inside your tauntaun for warmth.
 
2013-10-28 05:34:58 AM
Don't just sue the board, sue each member personally.
 
2013-10-28 05:39:01 AM

Klaumbaz: I have a 9' bagel cutter in my truck....it's made by Buck.

[www.knifehog.com image 250x250]

/work wont let me carry a weapon.


A 9 foot cutter? That's a big bagel.

/Tell him about the bagel.
 
2013-10-28 06:00:36 AM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Poowaddins: CSS: I went to school in the mornings with my hunting rifle in the gun rack in the back window of my locked truck and a 4-wheeler,  dead deer, and my bloody camo in the bed. No one said jack shiat.

/ Principal congratulated me when he saw me shucking my hunting clothes and came over to investigate.

This! When I went to school having a rifle or a shotgun in your car was no big deal. Then again I grew up in rural Missouri.

rnatalie: A knife, drug paraphernalia, traces of suspected marijuana, and golf clubs.

We have a zero tolerance for golf clubs!

Why was golf clubs mentioned? Are they banned?


Probably because some parents are smartasses like us.
 
2013-10-28 06:07:07 AM
This whole zero tolerance thing has gotten completely out of control. If they're going to start searching the trunks of students cars for possible weapons, you might as well suspend them all now.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-10-28 06:10:15 AM

doglover: Lionel Mandrake: the usual zero-tolerance stupidity...but, wtf were they doing looking in his trunk?

The lawsuit claims the district failed to take into account the student's intent or his academic, extracurricular and disciplinary records.

Intent and priors are worth considering, but why the hell would grades make a difference?

Why the hell were they in his car?


I can understand having a knife in your trunk... I've got a knife, some rope, and other emergency supplies in my trunk just in case the car breaks down in the middle of the mountains. A knife is an incredibly valuable tool if you need to cut down some small branches (if it snows, the ones on the ground will be soaked), if you need to cut a length of rope, or if you need to skin/clean a fish or animal. Heck, I bring my knife with me to work all the time because it is a better box cutter than the ones they provide us with. Frankly, there's a million uses for a knife... if we were talking about a gun, I could be more understanding of the schools position, but defining a knife as a weapon identifies some kind of intent, which the school had no grounds to do... a well maintained knife, stored in a trunk, is just another safety device.
 
2013-10-28 06:49:28 AM

firefly212: I've got a knife, some rope, and other emergency supplies in my trunk


So...a "rape kit?"

Good start, but you need some zip ties and duct tape
 
2013-10-28 07:04:00 AM

doglover: A full tang steel knife between 9-15" is perhaps the most versatile tool on earth. You can do almost anything with one.


Uh, I've taken the windscreen glass out of a car with a five inch bladed folder designed for rescue. You don't need a crocodile dundee knife to do the job.
 
2013-10-28 07:11:54 AM

Rik01: I'm so glad I graduated school in the 70's. I don't think I could tolerate all of the 'Zero Tolerance' bullshiat they have today.

As an adult and even with understanding why the policies were put into effect, I think they need to buffer them with compassion and common sense. Most of my graduating class had traces of weed in their cars, but they were straight when they drove into the parking lot and stayed that way all day.

Many of us smoke cigarettes and we'd get caught sneaking a smoke, but most teachers, instead of hauling our arses to the principal, who would kick us out of school, merely confiscated our packs, lectured us on getting caught and sent us on our way. The principal himself caught me with a tin of pipe tobacco in my back pocket and a pipe in my front one and just reminded me not to smoke on the school grounds.

Today, they'd haul the student off in chains.

I keep pointing out that kids are kids and aren't adults and will either do stupid things or will push the limits -- which is what kids do and how they learn and slapping them down for every minor infraction does more harm than good.

On an average day in school, I carried a folding knife in my pocket -- so did almost every other boy. I had a lighter for smokes kept in my briefcase. My car trunk held a bunch of tools along with a machete, often an ax and a folding military shovel. (I camped a lot.)

No one cared so long as I did not drag the machete with me into class.

Kids that hunted had gun racks in the back windows of their trucks and occasionally, one would have a rifle there. Empty, but the shells were usually in the glove box or under the seat. In our world, it was considered cowardly to pull a gun on anyone in a dispute or fight. The same with a knife.

They need to modify these Zero Tolerance Laws and add common sense. Kids are going to make mistakes. The majority will be innocent. Hanging them out to dry for every minor infraction is absolutely the worst thing that can be done.


That is a rational, intelligent, well thought out response; There is no place for that here on fark!
 
2013-10-28 07:15:24 AM

Rik01: They need to modify these Zero Tolerance Laws and add common sense. Kids are going to make mistakes. The majority will be innocent. Hanging them out to dry for every minor infraction is absolutely the worst thing that can be done.


And on the flip side, you have the problem of the poor/unpopular child getting punished more severely than the rich or popular child who does the same infraction, for no other reason than that virtue alone. If you want proof of that, look at the Justice system and how they treat low SES people versus high SES or celebrities.

While Zero Tolerance might not ALWAYS be a solution for a problem, there are other problems without it's implementation as well.
 
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