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(Slate)   How a murder in 1983 at a prison in Marion, IL ushered in America's supermax prison culture   (slate.com) divider line 93
    More: Interesting, supermax, Aryan Brotherhood, u.s. prisons, murders, Thomas Silverstein, bop, prison gang, Eighth Amendment  
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9333 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Oct 2013 at 1:16 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-24 12:21:25 PM
If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-10-24 12:47:38 PM

spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]


That's because you're a sociopath; but that's OK, lots of them do alright in the real world.
 
2013-10-24 12:58:28 PM

Gecko Gingrich: spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]

That's because you're a sociopath; but that's OK, lots of them do alright in the real world.


Let's get real. There is a segment of people out there that are entirely unwilling or unable to control their aggressive and violent behavior, and cannot or will not feel any remorse or regret for their actions. They cannot be allowed to socialize with others in any direct manner without someone ending up in the hospital. Nearly all of these people have been given opportunities outside of isolation, and have proven to be unwilling to behave themselves. How else do you propose we deal with these people?

I'm not saying that EVERYONE in prison needs to be locked up in this situation, and this really needs to be reserved for the worst of the worst of the worst, but sometimes it's the only option when the death penalty is not available.
 
2013-10-24 12:59:37 PM
In a country where we have no problem providing profit incentives for imprisoning people, you should probably think twice about institutionaly brutality against inmates.

Also, the vast majority of inmates will eventually be released back into society. From a pure self-interest perspective, it would be better to not have our correctional institutions become places where we teach people how to be more vicious and systematically intensify any mental illnesses that people have.
 
2013-10-24 01:05:14 PM

Cagey B: In a country where we have no problem providing profit incentives for imprisoning people, you should probably think twice about institutionaly brutality against inmates.

Also, the vast majority of inmates will eventually be released back into society. From a pure self-interest perspective, it would be better to not have our correctional institutions become places where we teach people how to be more vicious and systematically intensify any mental illnesses that people have.


I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.
 
2013-10-24 01:13:03 PM

spman: Cagey B: In a country where we have no problem providing profit incentives for imprisoning people, you should probably think twice about institutionaly brutality against inmates.

Also, the vast majority of inmates will eventually be released back into society. From a pure self-interest perspective, it would be better to not have our correctional institutions become places where we teach people how to be more vicious and systematically intensify any mental illnesses that people have.

I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.


And that's a good thing
 
2013-10-24 01:19:26 PM
normalized the chilling idea that the only rational way to deal with violent or notorious prisoners is to lock them up in small, isolated cells and throw away the key.

encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-10-24 01:20:52 PM
America's supermax prison culture
 
2013-10-24 01:21:20 PM

spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.


Like when Ace was unaware of the Wachutu's proclivity for biting, being ignorant of a fact doesn't make it not a fact.
 
2013-10-24 01:24:01 PM
Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein


Wait a minute...
 
2013-10-24 01:26:41 PM
"0, "When I took administration of justice, they told us-and I believe this, though apparently the people at Marion prison don't-you judge a society by how it treats its lowest members. Now them people at Marion are the lowest members, and if we're to judge this society on the way they're treating them, boy, we're pretty pitiful. "


ahhh.. here is  the confusion.  They threw away the right to be considered part of society the way they acted.  So no... they are not the lowest members.
 
2013-10-24 01:29:23 PM

Gecko Gingrich: spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.

Like when Ace was unaware of the Wachutu's proclivity for biting, being ignorant of a fact doesn't make it not a fact.


Did you actually read through all that? Nearly all of the "former" inmates aren't former because they were released from ADX Florence, they are former because they were determined to not be a risk and transferred somewhere else. So yes, in the literal sense, I was incorrect. Some people currently serving time in a Supermax will eventually be transferred and let out, and just about all of those only spent a short time there in the first place during their initial trial because they were deemed to be high risk or high value criminals for various reasons. Your rank and file terrorist, serial killer, gang leader, who is locked up there, is never getting transferred, and never getting out. In most cases ADX Florence isn't the first stop, it's the last one.
 
2013-10-24 01:29:31 PM
I remember when this happened and also remember the Jackson State riots a couple years earlier in Michigan.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty and I dislike the very concept of Supermax, but since we won't execute these people, what else are we supposed to do, let them run their own little Lord of the Flies on the rest of the inmates?
 
2013-10-24 01:29:42 PM
Oxygen thieves.

Death penalty, outsourced to China.  Those fellows have capital punishment down!
 
2013-10-24 01:30:03 PM

spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.


I'm not as familiar with the federal system and other states, but here in California, that's not true. Every state prison makes use of Secure Housing Units (SHU), which are supermax-like conditions. The most notorious for this Pelican Bay, focus of a recent hunger strike over these kinds of conditions. At Pelican Bay and elsewhere, SHU isn't just reserved for lifers. It can be imposed on any inmate for pretty much any reason, and is frequently used to target inmates suspected of being prominent gang members. There's no real judicial recourse to challenge these conditions, and people are kept in solitary for decades.

Now, even if you accept the premise that it's okay to torture people who are serving life sentences (it's not, by the way), this is not a practice limited to them. It's not just limited to those who are violent, either.

Is it necessary sometimes to isolate certain individuals from gen pop? Absolutely. Isolated for fifteen years or more? I don't know about that. The use of this practice certainly needs better oversight, because right now it's used for everything from psychotic murderers to inmates deemed "troublemakers" by corrupt prison guards.
 
2013-10-24 01:31:22 PM
.

Cagey B: In a country where we have no problem providing profit incentives for imprisoning people, you should probably think twice about institutionaly brutality against inmates.

Also, the vast majority of inmates will eventually be released back into society. From a pure self-interest perspective, it would be better to not have our correctional institutions become places where we teach people how to be more vicious and systematically intensify any mental illnesses that people have.


Re-establishing public mental hospitals would help a lot, but that's not going to happen because the ACLU will fight for your right to live under a bridge, eat out of a dumpster, and sh*t on doorsteps.

We should also release and/or treat drug users/addicts. I don't give a shiat about casual users, and addicts are often self-medicating some substantial personal trauma.

And yeah, I'd execute crooks who committed henious crimes and a high threshold of evidence of guilt was available.

That's a large part of our prison problem solved right there.
 
2013-10-24 01:31:24 PM
CSS:

In 1987, I worked for a laboratory in customer service and one of my clients was Marion.  The first time I went there, I was turned away because I was wearing a dress and (low)heels.  I was informed that when I called on the prison, I would:

1)make the appointment no earlier than 48 hours in advance
2)wear flat shoes, pants, short sleeves, jewlery is discouraged and will be left at the gate
3)would leave ALL my personal belongings at the gate.  Coat, jewelry, pen, notebook, pager, everything
4)I would have my picture taken every time I was there, before entering.  because they would need a way to identify my body if something were to happen
5)I would be escorted everywhere by one or more armed officers, I was to NEVER make eye contact with an inmate if one should happen to be in the area

The first time I met with their chief medical director, he told me "if anything should happen and I leave this room, I will lock you in here.  You are not to leave until I come back.  If I don't come back, an armed guard with a key will eventually show up for you.  If no guard comes, may the lord have mercy on your soul."

They were not kidding about any of that.  I hated going there.
 
2013-10-24 01:31:28 PM

spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.


Perhaps you should check into things before stating an absolute like that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_inmates_of_US_Penitentia ry ,_Florence_ADX

Some of those people have been released.  One of them's even a militia gun-nut.  How much do you want to bet his time at ADX made him a pacifistic puppy and kitten lover, and not someone with a chip on their shoulder and wanting to kill The Man?
 
2013-10-24 01:31:42 PM

macadamnut: Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein

Wait a minute...


Strange bedfellows, indeed.
 
2013-10-24 01:33:21 PM

Cagey B: In a country where we have no problem providing profit incentives for imprisoning people, you should probably think twice about institutionaly brutality against inmates.


You can say that again.
s21.postimg.org
 
2013-10-24 01:33:47 PM
Quote:
"Getting placed in the control unit was akin to being buried alive. Inmates were confined to their small cells for almost 23 hours a day."


Aaaaaand. Your credibility as an author is gone.
 
2013-10-24 01:34:45 PM
I don't approve of the death penalty because of the inability to appeal it once carried out, but I do think some people are so remorselessly violent and criminal that they should be in 23 hour lockdown.

Most prisoners aren't this way, so  I also think we should end the privatization of prisons and have more effective ways of clearing non-violent offender records so that they can re-integrate with society more effectively.
 
2013-10-24 01:35:22 PM

spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]


Actually this is why we libs don't like the death penalty, or supermaxes:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-25/news/chi-exonerated-ma n- andre-davis-finding-his-way-after-32-years-in-prison-20121225_1_tamms- supermax-prison-murder-victim

Sometimes you law and order types make mistakes and end up killing innocent people.  But hey, as long as the mistake isn't you or one of your family members, you couldn't give a crap, right?
 
2013-10-24 01:36:45 PM
Newton's Third Law.

That is all.
 
2013-10-24 01:39:23 PM
Indeed, it's hard to muster much sympathy for Thomas Silverstein. But it is also hard to argue that the conditions in which he is held are anything less than torturous, or that indefinitely detaining inmates in control-unit prisons should be acceptable to citizens in a democracy.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-10-24 01:39:32 PM
From the article:
----------------
"There is no way to control a very small subset of the inmate population who show absolutely no concern for human life," former Federal Bureau of Prisons Director Norman Carlson told the San Francisco Chronicle in 1998, justifying the decision to put Marion into lockdown.
-----------------

Yes, there is. It's small, made of lead and moves very fast when propelled out of a gun, even through such an inmate's head.
 
2013-10-24 01:40:31 PM
Actually it was the May 1984 issue of Prison Chic magazine.
 
2013-10-24 01:40:51 PM

macadamnut: Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein

Wait a minute...


And the Oscar for self-hating Jew goes to...oy, why am I here?
 
2013-10-24 01:41:31 PM

barc0001: Sometimes you law and order types make mistakes and end up killing innocent people. But hey, as long as the mistake isn't you or one of your family members, you couldn't give a crap, right?


You do know there are really, really, really bad people who need to be dealt with in some fashion, don't you? Are you unaware that there is real evil in this world? Are you aware your partisan fantasies about cavemen-like 'teatards' are absurd when compared to the very real violent degenerates we keep in Supermax prisons?

What do you propose to do with these people? Strap them to a gurney and pump them full of thorazine for a few decades?
 
2013-10-24 01:42:08 PM
Yes it's the ACLU that's holding back public mental health reform, not the right wing "no taxes no government no health care no services" attitude (and the aforementioned prison industrial complex)
 
2013-10-24 01:44:12 PM

LibertyHiller: "macadamnut: Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein

Wait a minute...

Strange bedfellows, indeed."



Nope....


Valiente: "And the Oscar for self-hating Jew goes to...oy, why am I here?"



...and nope. His mother remarried to a Jewish man, and he ended up with the guy's last name. Wasn't actually Jewish.
 
2013-10-24 01:45:00 PM

ElwoodCuse: Yes it's the ACLU that's holding back public mental health reform, not the right wing "no taxes no government no health care no services" attitude (and the aforementioned prison industrial complex)


A quick google search yields:
It was, after all, the New York chapter of the ACLU that sponsored the initial mental health project run by lawyer Bruce J. Ennis. Ennis wrote that the goal of the ACLU program "should be nothing less than the abolition of involuntary hospitalization." Ennis and other representatives of the ACLU played a major role in shutting down most state psychiatric hospitals and in blocking all attempts to treat patients who do not know they are sick. For examples, in New York City, when then mayor Ed Koch tried to involuntarily hospitalize obviously psychotic homeless individuals, it was the ACLU that went to court and blocked his efforts.

Your move, buddy.
 
2013-10-24 01:45:52 PM

LibertyHiller: I remember when this happened and also remember the Jackson State riots a couple years earlier in Michigan.

I have mixed feelings about the death penalty and I dislike the very concept of Supermax, but since we won't execute these people, what else are we supposed to do, let them run their own little Lord of the Flies on the rest of the inmates?


Right here. I agree that confinement and sequestration (not in the current sense of DC charades) is necessary to keep the wolves off the sheep and the shepherds, but you don't have to throw in random beatings and particularly racism to do the job.

You can taze them or dart them or gas them, shackle them when unconscious, and then hood them and leash them on the way to the showers. It's the way a lot of dangerous, unpredicatable animals are transported.

Jails should be about time served and separation from others as one's impulse control suggests. It should not be a place where the guards get to pummel the prisoners while calling out slurs. And no, I don't think that's particularly idealistic.
 
2013-10-24 01:47:45 PM

spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]


I lean left of center and apposed to the death penalty, however I have no problem locking these dysfunctional examples of human waste into tiny cells.
F them. They made their choices.

This is where many of my fellow "liberals" and I part company.
 
2013-10-24 01:48:18 PM

ElwoodCuse: Yes it's the ACLU that's holding back public mental health reform, not the right wing "no taxes no government no health care no services" attitude (and the aforementioned prison industrial complex)


What came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case, it was the ACLU crying about forced institutionalization of the mentally ill, that came before Reagan defunding mental health programs. There's no sense in appropriating money to services the courts say aren't allowable in the first place.
 
2013-10-24 01:48:19 PM

spmkk: LibertyHiller: "macadamnut: Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein

Wait a minute...

Strange bedfellows, indeed."


Nope....


Valiente: "And the Oscar for self-hating Jew goes to...oy, why am I here?"


...and nope. His mother remarried to a Jewish man, and he ended up with the guy's last name. Wasn't actually Jewish.


And yet Dr. Freud is arguably in the mix.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-10-24 01:48:26 PM
Massachusetts has 500 prisoners (of 11,000) in solitary. The rule used to be they could lock you up basically forever as long as they called you a disciplinary problem. A lawsuit led to a court order that prisoners had to have a real opportunity to contest charges. An indefinite series of consecutive short term assignments would be treated like one long term assignment.
 
2013-10-24 01:49:36 PM

spmkk: LibertyHiller: "macadamnut: Aryan Brotherhood prison gang

Thomas Silverstein

Wait a minute...

Strange bedfellows, indeed."


Nope....


Valiente: "And the Oscar for self-hating Jew goes to...oy, why am I here?"


...and nope. His mother remarried to a Jewish man, and he ended up with the guy's last name. Wasn't actually Jewish.


Still good for a laugh, though.
 
2013-10-24 01:49:47 PM
Interesting book about one of Silversteins victims (Cadillac Smith) http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0316209546 by one of the writers of The Wire.
 
2013-10-24 01:51:34 PM

barc0001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_inmates_of_US_Penitentia ry ,_Florence_ADX


The only thing I learned here is that you don't vet your citations very well and that Woody Harrelson's dad is at supermax after murdering a federal judge.

/thanks fark!
 
2013-10-24 01:56:37 PM

the_end_is_rear: spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]

I lean left of center and apposed to the death penalty, however I have no problem locking these dysfunctional examples of human waste into tiny cells.
F them. They made their choices.

This is where many of my fellow "liberals" and I part company.


This.

I have no problem with forgoing rehabilitation for certain inmates. Especially people who murder fellow inmates or guards, at that point they have made it clear that they are not interested in rehabilitation.
 
2013-10-24 02:00:48 PM
I can't wait to see what we do for the guys who are too bad for supermax...

blog.booklistonline.com
 
2013-10-24 02:01:33 PM
"Normalized the chilling idea that the only rational way to deal with violent or notorious prisoners is to lock them up in small, isolated cells and throw away the key."

Stopped reading right there.  It IS the only way to deal with violent offenders, thinking they will play nice with each other is a fairy tale. If they're already spending life in prison they have no reason to behave themselves.
 
2013-10-24 02:05:29 PM
 
2013-10-24 02:06:23 PM

dfenstrate: ElwoodCuse: Yes it's the ACLU that's holding back public mental health reform, not the right wing "no taxes no government no health care no services" attitude (and the aforementioned prison industrial complex)

A quick google search yields:
It was, after all, the New York chapter of the ACLU that sponsored the initial mental health project run by lawyer Bruce J. Ennis. Ennis wrote that the goal of the ACLU program "should be nothing less than the abolition of involuntary hospitalization." Ennis and other representatives of the ACLU played a major role in shutting down most state psychiatric hospitals and in blocking all attempts to treat patients who do not know they are sick. For examples, in New York City, when then mayor Ed Koch tried to involuntarily hospitalize obviously psychotic homeless individuals, it was the ACLU that went to court and blocked his efforts.

Your move, buddy.


It's actually both. The right loves to look down on the less fortunate and feel all godly when they throw them a crumb or two. The left make's them into some kind of martyrs or alien culture to be preserved.

It's scary to me when the extreme left and extreme right join up so perfectly.

Pron is another perfect example: the right leaning sheep are against it because their masters tell them it's 'dirty' and gawd don't like it (it's really because sexual frustration is a great way to keep men under control). The left leaning sheep are against it because their masters tell them that, even though women chose to do it of their own free will - they are being exploited... somehow... or something (it's really because sexual frustration is a great way to keep men under control).

Same can be said of getting kids away from abusive, neglectful, idiot parents. Even hearing the words 'parent's rights' gets me all stabby.
 
2013-10-24 02:06:24 PM

Gecko Gingrich: "spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.

Like when Ace was unaware of the Wachutu's proclivity for biting, being ignorant of a fact doesn't make it not a fact."



Um. From the list in your own link:

 - Exactly one (1) person was released and remains out, and he shouldn't have been in Supermax in the first place (non-violent crime, passing bad checks).

 - One additional person was released under witness protection and was promptly re-incarcerated, remaining in jail today.

 - Three people were released and immediately deported to their home countries.

Every single other person in that list is either still behind bars or dead. Out of those among them who are expected to get out within their lifetimes, most will be too old to be physically capable of the sort of mayhem that got them in.

So, yeah - if you've gotten yourself into a Supermax prison, your odds of becoming either a member of, or a threat to, society again are slim to none.
 
2013-10-24 02:11:57 PM
thenamesplissken.webs.com

Here's an idea on what to do with these folks
 
2013-10-24 02:13:47 PM

spmkk: Gecko Gingrich: "spman: I'm not aware of anyone who will eventually be released being kept in Supermax conditions. Everyone in a Supermax, or in a prison with similiar conditions, is never seeing the light of day again.

Like when Ace was unaware of the Wachutu's proclivity for biting, being ignorant of a fact doesn't make it not a fact."


Um. From the list in your own link:

 - Exactly one (1) person was released and remains out, and he shouldn't have been in Supermax in the first place (non-violent crime, passing bad checks).

 - One additional person was released under witness protection and was promptly re-incarcerated, remaining in jail today.

 - Three people were released and immediately deported to their home countries.

Every single other person in that list is either still behind bars or dead. Out of those among them who are expected to get out within their lifetimes, most will be too old to be physically capable of the sort of mayhem that got them in.

So, yeah - if you've gotten yourself into a Supermax prison, your odds of becoming either a member of, or a threat to, society again are slim to none.


That's great, but how does that do anything but back up my assertion that spman is wrong?
 
2013-10-24 02:15:44 PM
I hate Illinois nazis!
 
2013-10-24 02:19:08 PM

Gecko Gingrich: spman: If you libby libs don't want the death penalty, then I really only have one response to this article:

[1-media-cdn.foolz.us image 500x276]

That's because you're a sociopath; but that's OK, lots of them do alright in the real world.


Really?  I'm pretty damn liberal, but guys like that don't deserve even one ounce of freedom.  So tell me, how do we treat prisoners who have absolutely no regard for human life and would love to see the world burn?  Treat them to a game of squash or something?
 
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