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(CNBC)   Caterpillar posts lower than expected earnings. This means it will be a mild winter   (cnbc.com) divider line 91
    More: Amusing, total sales  
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336 clicks; posted to Business » on 23 Oct 2013 at 12:10 PM (25 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-23 11:28:41 AM
On behalf of London Ontario and the Province...
imageshack.com
 
2013-10-23 12:17:24 PM
Is this the same CEO that threatened to leave Illinois because of the oppressive taxes? Fark him.  He deserves to be shot for feeding into this race to the bottom mentality of letting corporations skate buy without paying fark all to the society that allows them to exist.  Die in a fire fark face.
 
2013-10-23 12:48:38 PM

FarkedOver: Is this the same CEO that threatened to leave Illinois because of the oppressive taxes? Fark him.  He deserves to be shot for feeding into this race to the bottom mentality of letting corporations skate buy without paying fark all to the society that allows them to exist.  Die in a fire fark face.


It's the same thing that applies to higher taxes on tobacco.  High taxes are a deterrant to smoking.  High taxes are a deterrant to business.  A state like Idaho with lower taxes would gladly get a smaller piece of the pie than no pie at all.
 
2013-10-23 12:54:59 PM

Smeggy Smurf: FarkedOver: Is this the same CEO that threatened to leave Illinois because of the oppressive taxes? Fark him.  He deserves to be shot for feeding into this race to the bottom mentality of letting corporations skate buy without paying fark all to the society that allows them to exist.  Die in a fire fark face.

It's the same thing that applies to higher taxes on tobacco.  High taxes are a deterrant to smoking.  High taxes are a deterrant to business.  A state like Idaho with lower taxes would gladly get a smaller piece of the pie than no pie at all.


Sure you can move your business to a state like Idaho or Alabama, but you're not getting a workforce that is as smart as the one you would get in a state with higher taxes.
 
2013-10-23 12:57:53 PM

FarkedOver: Sure you can move your business to a state like Idaho or Alabama, but you're not getting a workforce that is as smart as the one you would get in a state with higher taxes.


With many of them moving with the company, you don't really need to.  When good paying jobs are being offered, you can get an influx of talent where ever you go whether it be local or not.  Look at North Dakota.  Much of that work is very specialized.
 
2013-10-23 12:58:51 PM

FarkedOver: Is this the same CEO that threatened to leave Illinois because of the oppressive taxes? Fark him.  He deserves to be shot for feeding into this race to the bottom mentality of letting corporations skate buy without paying fark all to the society that allows them to exist.  Die in a fire fark face.


I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.
 
2013-10-23 01:01:02 PM

HeadLever: With many of them moving with the company, you don't really need to. When good paying jobs are being offered, you can get an influx of talent where ever you go whether it be local or not. Look at North Dakota. Much of that work is very specialized.


I would venture to guess a large majority of the people who work at the Caterpillar assembly plant cannot afford to move with the company.  North Dakota is experience a boom in oil.  This is a completely different and more profitable venture than traditional manual labor.  Apples and oranges and all that.
 
2013-10-23 01:01:42 PM

Dog Welder: I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.


Well how else are you going to make a record profit? Duh!
 
2013-10-23 01:02:08 PM

sno man: On behalf of London Ontario and the Province...
[imageshack.com image 415x317]


Came here to say this.
 
2013-10-23 01:03:20 PM

Dog Welder: I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.


That is because commodity prices have been falling for quite some time and mines are not buying as much currently.  Their invetory is likely too high and they need to scal back production.  Contrary to what many think, profits is only part of this puzzle.
 
2013-10-23 01:05:38 PM
Is this the same company that closed down a plant in Ontario because they had assembly line workers making $80k/year? And the union wouldn't agree to lower the wages to save the plant?
 
2013-10-23 01:06:48 PM

FarkedOver: I would venture to guess a large majority of the people who work at the Caterpillar assembly plant cannot afford to move with the company.


If you were a vital part of the workforce and highly skilled, I could see them offering a relocation package.  Also, don't forget that many of these states also have a much lower cost of living as well and that could likely offset much of the cost of moving.

This is a completely different and more profitable venture than traditional manual labor.

I thought that we were discusing highly skilled labor here, not traditional manual labor.  This type of labor can be picked up locally.
 
2013-10-23 01:07:00 PM

sure haven't: Is this the same company that closed down a plant in Ontario because they had assembly line workers making $80k/year? And the union wouldn't agree to lower the wages to save the plant?


If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union.  The company agreed to the contract.
 
2013-10-23 01:07:37 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: I would venture to guess a large majority of the people who work at the Caterpillar assembly plant cannot afford to move with the company.

If you were a vital part of the workforce and highly skilled, I could see them offering a relocation package.  Also, don't forget that many of these states also have a much lower cost of living as well and that could likely offset much of the cost of moving.

This is a completely different and more profitable venture than traditional manual labor.

I thought that we were discusing highly skilled labor here, not traditional manual labor.  This type of labor can be picked up locally.


Sure it can and at a fraction of the cost and to the detriment of their product.
 
2013-10-23 01:09:09 PM

FarkedOver: Sure it can and at a fraction of the cost and to the detriment of their product.


I am pretty sure that someone sweeping the floor is not going to hurt the quality of thier product.  If you maintain a high quality of standard at the skilled positions, and keep you QA folks in place, you will be fine.
 
2013-10-23 01:10:43 PM

FarkedOver: If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union. The company agreed to the contract.


True, but when the contract is due, both parties have the right to renegotiate.
 
2013-10-23 01:13:02 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union. The company agreed to the contract.

True, but when the contract is due, both parties have the right to renegotiate.


That is true.  The workers retain the right to strike.  The company can bring in scabs.  I don't understand why people get so pissed off when workers assert their power, but when companies do it they get barely a blurb and skate on by.
 
2013-10-23 01:14:51 PM

FarkedOver: sure haven't: Is this the same company that closed down a plant in Ontario because they had assembly line workers making $80k/year? And the union wouldn't agree to lower the wages to save the plant?

If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union.  The company agreed to the contract.


Right, I'm assuming back when it made sense (or maybe, like all negotiations, there are deep levels of complexity that go into the agreement, none of which can be summed up in your twisted logic circle). But then it just got too much, they opened the books to them and said look we're not lying, we can't continue on like this, and they still said no.
 
2013-10-23 01:18:16 PM

sure haven't: FarkedOver: sure haven't: Is this the same company that closed down a plant in Ontario because they had assembly line workers making $80k/year? And the union wouldn't agree to lower the wages to save the plant?

If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union.  The company agreed to the contract.

Right, I'm assuming back when it made sense (or maybe, like all negotiations, there are deep levels of complexity that go into the agreement, none of which can be summed up in your twisted logic circle). But then it just got too much, they opened the books to them and said look we're not lying, we can't continue on like this, and they still said no.


I guess that company should learn a little "responsibility" and don't write checks that their ass can't cash.
 
2013-10-23 01:22:15 PM

FarkedOver: The workers retain the right to strike. The company can bring in scabs.


Or move.  Or shut down completely, or whatever they want.  I don't get pissed at the workers that understand the big picutre.  However, many don't are are only satisfied at getting as as much as they possibly can.  Just because the company may be doing great currently is not reason for everyone to be over optimistic.  Especially when you are chained to a cyclical sector like mining and construction.
 
2013-10-23 01:23:58 PM

FarkedOver: I guess that company should learn a little "responsibility" and don't write checks that their ass can't cash.


Those checks that they can't cash are to the damn employees, Einstein.
 
2013-10-23 01:24:54 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: The workers retain the right to strike. The company can bring in scabs.

Or move.  Or shut down completely, or whatever they want.  I don't get pissed at the workers that understand the big picutre.  However, many don't are are only satisfied at getting as as much as they possibly can.  Just because the company may be doing great currently is not reason for everyone to be over optimistic.  Especially when you are chained to a cyclical sector like mining and construction.


I think the majority of workers don't understand the big picture.  If they did understand the big picture, I think they would be asking for a hell of a lot more in wages considering that they create all the wealth.
 
2013-10-23 01:26:56 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: I guess that company should learn a little "responsibility" and don't write checks that their ass can't cash.

Those checks that they can't cash are to the damn employees, Einstein.


I'm aware of the, Fermi.  I was being glib.  Like how we're always told to learn some "personal responsibility".  Companies have no need of responsibility except to their shareholders and not to the people that create their wealth.
 
2013-10-23 01:27:57 PM

FarkedOver: If they did understand the big picture, I think they would be asking for a hell of a lot more in wages considering that they create all the wealth.


So when commodity prices are at its peak and ready for the downturn, you really think that they should ask for more money and you pretend that they know the 'big picture'.  Let me guess, you don't make business decisions.  You sound like one of those Hostess employees.
 
2013-10-23 01:29:34 PM

FarkedOver: Companies have no need of responsibility except to their shareholders and not to the people that create their wealth.


That has to be one of the dumbest things that I have heard on Fark in quite some time.  Wow, dude.
 
2013-10-23 01:29:43 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: If they did understand the big picture, I think they would be asking for a hell of a lot more in wages considering that they create all the wealth.

So when commodity prices are at its peak and ready for the downturn, you really think that they should ask for more money and you pretend that they know the 'big picture'.  Let me guess, you don't make business decisions.  You sound like one of those Hostess employees.


You sound like one of those hostess executives that received a bonus at the expense of the workers pension fund, Isaac Newton.

/Can we continue to call each other different scientists?
 
2013-10-23 01:30:42 PM

HeadLever: Dog Welder: I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.

That is because commodity prices have been falling for quite some time and mines are not buying as much currently.  Their invetory is likely too high and they need to scal back production.  Contrary to what many think, profits is only part of this puzzle.


Except steel, which is kind of important.  And sometimes that steel can only be obtained from two sources in the entire world.  And Cat uses lots and lots of steel.  And just like US debt, when you pre-buy, you still have to pay.  Inventories are high, sales are low, and the cycle will catch up in a couple of years.

Not disagreeing.  You are actually spot on.  Global influences have more influence on the company climate than most realize.  It's not workers vs company profit and that's the end of it.
 
2013-10-23 01:31:47 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: Companies have no need of responsibility except to their shareholders and not to the people that create their wealth.

That has to be one of the dumbest things that I have heard on Fark in quite some time.  Wow, dude.


How so? Do companies exist to employ people?
 
2013-10-23 01:33:17 PM

FarkedOver: sure haven't: FarkedOver: sure haven't: Is this the same company that closed down a plant in Ontario because they had assembly line workers making $80k/year? And the union wouldn't agree to lower the wages to save the plant?

If people were making 80k a year don't blame the union.  The company agreed to the contract.

Right, I'm assuming back when it made sense (or maybe, like all negotiations, there are deep levels of complexity that go into the agreement, none of which can be summed up in your twisted logic circle). But then it just got too much, they opened the books to them and said look we're not lying, we can't continue on like this, and they still said no.

I guess that company should learn a little "responsibility" and don't write checks that their ass can't cash.


You're right. And those workers sure showed them by becoming jobless while the company continued on.
 
2013-10-23 01:33:54 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: HeadLever: Dog Welder: I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.

That is because commodity prices have been falling for quite some time and mines are not buying as much currently.  Their invetory is likely too high and they need to scal back production.  Contrary to what many think, profits is only part of this puzzle.

Except steel, which is kind of important.  And sometimes that steel can only be obtained from two sources in the entire world.  And Cat uses lots and lots of steel.  And just like US debt, when you pre-buy, you still have to pay.  Inventories are high, sales are low, and the cycle will catch up in a couple of years.

Not disagreeing.  You are actually spot on.  Global influences have more influence on the company climate than most realize.  It's not workers vs company profit and that's the end of it.


I have always heard Cat is a bellwether company.  Whatever happens to them, 6 months later the rest of the ecomony get hit with the same storm.  You think it sucks now.....
 
2013-10-23 01:34:17 PM

FarkedOver: HeadLever: FarkedOver: Companies have no need of responsibility except to their shareholders and not to the people that create their wealth.

That has to be one of the dumbest things that I have heard on Fark in quite some time.  Wow, dude.

How so? Do companies exist to employ people?


I think this wins as the dumbest thing ever seen HL.
 
2013-10-23 01:34:49 PM

FarkedOver: You sound like one of those hostess executives that received a bonus at the expense of the workers pension fund,


So you have demostrated that you have no understanding of the business that CAT is employed in but you seem to think that it is perfectly fine for them demand more money if they knew the 'big picutre'?  Yeah, no.

You seem to be a simple shill with no knowldege of the specific situation of this buisness.  All of your arguemnts seem to come from generalized talking points that are only marginally relevent to the actual discussion at hand.
 
2013-10-23 01:35:06 PM

sure haven't: You're right. And those workers sure showed them by becoming jobless while the company continued on.


Exactly.  When workers breach the contract it's COMMIES!!! When companies breach contract it's: "Oh well too farking bad."
 
2013-10-23 01:35:06 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: Companies have no need of responsibility except to their shareholders and not to the people that create their wealth.

That has to be one of the dumbest things that I have heard on Fark in quite some time.  Wow, dude.


You must be new to the working world.
 
2013-10-23 01:38:29 PM

Saiga410: Satan's Bunny Slippers: HeadLever: Dog Welder: I'm not sure about that one, but this is the same CEO who saw the company bringing in "record profits" at this point last year while laying off huge chunks of his workforce.

That is because commodity prices have been falling for quite some time and mines are not buying as much currently.  Their invetory is likely too high and they need to scal back production.  Contrary to what many think, profits is only part of this puzzle.

Except steel, which is kind of important.  And sometimes that steel can only be obtained from two sources in the entire world.  And Cat uses lots and lots of steel.  And just like US debt, when you pre-buy, you still have to pay.  Inventories are high, sales are low, and the cycle will catch up in a couple of years.

Not disagreeing.  You are actually spot on.  Global influences have more influence on the company climate than most realize.  It's not workers vs company profit and that's the end of it.

I have always heard Cat is a bellwether company.  Whatever happens to them, 6 months later the rest of the ecomony get hit with the same storm.  You think it sucks now.....


Actually I don't think it sucks now.  Economy is slowly creeping up, as is employment, stocks.  It will be a slow recovery to 15 years of complete destruction.  We're on the right path.  While the overall adjustments are down, Shifting focus to other developments, slowing down production, looking toward research areas that may have not been at the forefront until now are all sound business.  Everything has to evolve. Larger companies are doing just that.
 
2013-10-23 01:42:43 PM

FarkedOver: sure haven't: You're right. And those workers sure showed them by becoming jobless while the company continued on.

Exactly.  When workers breach the contract it's COMMIES!!! When companies breach contract it's: "Oh well too farking bad."


Uh, ok. Well I've never said or believe anything like that. It's just the economy doesn't wait to change because Caterpillar and Local x have a contract that doesn't expire for another couple of years. Holding on and refusing to negotiate based on some sort of smug indignancy is a waste of time and goes nowhere.
 
2013-10-23 01:42:55 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: I think this wins as the dumbest thing ever seen HL.


Why?

HeadLever: So you have demostrated that you have no understanding of the business that CAT is employed in but you seem to think that it is perfectly fine for them demand more money if they knew the 'big picutre'? Yeah, no.

You seem to be a simple shill with no knowldege of the specific situation of this buisness. All of your arguemnts seem to come from generalized talking points that are only marginally relevent to the actual discussion at hand.


I think we just have a very different view of looking at the world.  I understand how business works.  My issue is that I don't like the way business works. I don't care much on interpreting how things are my point is in changing how things are.
 
2013-10-23 01:43:19 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: Global influences have more influence on the company climate than most realize.


Yep, mines have been buying like crazy for the last 6 or so years but that is coming quickly to a close as copper, gold, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, tungsten, ect have all been falling steadily for the last year.  Mines are cutting back big time right now as well and this impact will be felt all over the place.
 
2013-10-23 01:45:43 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: You sound like one of those hostess executives that received a bonus at the expense of the workers pension fund,

So you have demostrated that you have no understanding of the business that CAT is employed in but you seem to think that it is perfectly fine for them demand more money if they knew the 'big picutre'?  Yeah, no.

You seem to be a simple shill with no knowldege of the specific situation of this buisness.  All of your arguemnts seem to come from generalized talking points that are only marginally relevent to the actual discussion at hand.


Quality summation here.
 
2013-10-23 01:47:52 PM

FarkedOver: My issue is that I don't like the way business works.


Let me guess, profits are the debil?  A good company is one that has no profit and they should only exist to serve their employees? That seems to be the crux of your arguments.
 
2013-10-23 01:51:05 PM

HeadLever: FarkedOver: My issue is that I don't like the way business works.

Let me guess, profits are the debil?  A good company is one that has no profit and they should only exist to serve their employees? That seems to be the crux of your arguments.


It's no secret I'm an anti-capitalist.  Let me put it to you this way; Is there enough food to feed everyone in the world? The answer is yes.  Why don't we do that? The answer is because it is not profitable.  I find that wrong.  I understand why it is the way it is, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.  Is it possible to concede that sometimes profits are "the debil"?
 
2013-10-23 01:51:48 PM

FarkedOver: Satan's Bunny Slippers: I think this wins as the dumbest thing ever seen HL.

Why?



Because it's a blatant statement that you have absolutely no clue how business works.  You have it divided into workers/slaves and THE BAD GUYS.

It's far more complicated and a much more delicate balance than you seem to grasp, especially when you are talking globally based corporations.
 
2013-10-23 01:52:47 PM

Saiga410: I have always heard Cat is a bellwether company. Whatever happens to them, 6 months later the rest of the ecomony get hit with the same storm. You think it sucks now.....


Yeah, we will see.  Many companies like CAT have been very lucky during the downturn as the high commodity prices and the boom in ND have supported quite a number of buisnesses that would otherwise be down and out like the rest of the larger economy.  Going into the future, it is a tossup.  This sector is definatly on the downturn, but if the larger economy can pick back up, that will provide a floor to many of these commodity prices and help shorten this downturn cycle.

I am not very optimistic about it, but we will see.
 
2013-10-23 01:54:12 PM

FarkedOver: It's no secret I'm an anti-capitalist.


Crap, I forgot you are our resident marxist.  I need to get you farkied.  Sorry about that.
 
2013-10-23 01:54:44 PM

HeadLever: Satan's Bunny Slippers: Global influences have more influence on the company climate than most realize.

Yep, mines have been buying like crazy for the last 6 or so years but that is coming quickly to a close as copper, gold, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, tungsten, ect have all been falling steadily for the last year.  Mines are cutting back big time right now as well and this impact will be felt all over the place.


Yes.  And as other developing nations bring their influences into play, the impact on the global economy is going to be huge, and the players are going to change rapidly.  It's a good time to slow down and take stock of what you have, have not, and hedge the risks.  Not all markets will be affected, but pre buys and pre sales are going to look very different.
 
2013-10-23 01:58:57 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: FarkedOver: Satan's Bunny Slippers: I think this wins as the dumbest thing ever seen HL.

Why?


Because it's a blatant statement that you have absolutely no clue how business works.  You have it divided into workers/slaves and THE BAD GUYS.

It's far more complicated and a much more delicate balance than you seem to grasp, especially when you are talking globally based corporations.


I get how business works.  My point is that there is a completely different dynamic between owner (executives,ceo or what have you) and worker.  The company does not exist to give you or anyone a job.  They do not hire people unless they can make money off of a persons labor.  I fail to see how that is something "stupid".  That is capitalism.
 
2013-10-23 01:58:57 PM

Satan's Bunny Slippers: You have it divided into workers/slaves and THE BAD GUYS.


He approaches everything from Karl's perspective.  Anything capitilist is bad.
 
2013-10-23 02:00:36 PM

HeadLever: Satan's Bunny Slippers: You have it divided into workers/slaves and THE BAD GUYS.

He approaches everything from Karl's perspective.  Anything capitilist is bad.


Not true.  Marx was rather impressed with capitalism.  Marx even pointed out that it was once a revolutionary and progressive form.  Marx just theorizes "What happens after capitalism?".  Which I don't think is a terrible question to ask.
 
2013-10-23 02:02:39 PM

FarkedOver: They do not hire people unless they can make money off of a persons labor.


Hiring and managing this workforce is labor in itself and needs to be compensated just the same as those doing the work of providing a good or service.  Labor within a buisness is not - or should never be - confined to just the lower ranking employees.
 
2013-10-23 02:04:07 PM

HeadLever: Hiring and managing this workforce is labor in itself and needs to be compensated just the same as those doing the work of providing a good or service. Labor within a buisness is not - or should never be - confined to just the lower ranking employees.


I agree with you to a point there.  More people should realize they fall into the category of proletariat.
 
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