If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   Why aren't Canadians upset at having death panels? Why doesn't America have these great-sounding things?   (slate.com) divider line 130
    More: Interesting, Canadians, death panels, Hippocratic Oath, Supreme Court of Canada, Kathleen Sebelius  
•       •       •

7110 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Oct 2013 at 8:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



130 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-10-22 08:25:58 AM  
Because their system actually works and Republicans
 
2013-10-22 08:29:58 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Because their system actually works and Republicans


I'll get the lights. Anyone up for a bite to eat on the way home?
 
2013-10-22 08:48:45 AM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-10-22 08:49:03 AM  

Barfmaker: Voiceofreason01: Because their system actually works and Republicans

I'll get the lights. Anyone up for a bite to eat on the way home?


Man... I just finished breakfast, so.... How 'bout drinks?
 
2013-10-22 08:49:06 AM  
Because Sarah Palin said that the death panels would come for her retarded child. I'm not sure which child in particular she was talking about. Maybe all of them.
 
2013-10-22 08:50:59 AM  
We're so far from having death panels that even the idea that doctors SHOULD talk about end-of-life options (not cutting the cord, but actually determining what the person wants) ends up causing a 4-year, ongoing rhetorical mess.

Personally, I'm torn: I can see how families, seeing sparks of improvement in a dying loved one would fight for more time but hospital beds cost many thousands per day, or up to a million dollars/year.  I personally wouldn't ever want to be that kind of burden.
 
2013-10-22 08:51:17 AM  
Because they use frozen death panels.
Ice floes.
 
2013-10-22 08:51:30 AM  
You know what America?
Your chances of surviving are determined by how much money you make.

Sorry to break it to you like this, serfs.
 
2013-10-22 08:54:22 AM  
Shows the power of imaginary lines on the ground.
 
2013-10-22 08:54:48 AM  
Because their socialized medicine is so evil and poorly delivered dying is often better than living in the frozen tundra wasteland.
 
2013-10-22 08:57:21 AM  
Also, Americans get all embarrassed and bronze agey when it comes to sex and dying.
 
2013-10-22 08:57:25 AM  

factoryconnection: but hospital beds cost many thousands per day, or up to a million dollars/year. I personally wouldn't ever want to be that kind of burden.


I would.  With a prolonged incapacitation like that I would pull way more out of the system than I could have ever put in via taxes due to my modest salary.  I would probably suck ten times as much out of the coffers as I'd contributed.  That's how you win.  If I were in a vegetative state I might not realize that I'm living a $5000.00 a day lifestyle but it's cool to think that's the way I'll go out.  Burnin' the Benjamins, baby.
 
2013-10-22 08:58:00 AM  
If someone can only be kept alive then it's time to let them go.
 
2013-10-22 09:00:55 AM  

spentshells: If someone can only be kept alive then it's time to let them go.


THIS
 
2013-10-22 09:02:13 AM  
We do? I better start making a list. I've got a whole lot of people I'd like to refer.
 
2013-10-22 09:02:33 AM  
We call them insurance companies here.
 
2013-10-22 09:03:11 AM  

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: If I were in a vegetative state I might not realize that I'm living a $5000.00 a day lifestyle but it's cool to think that's the way I'll go out. Burnin' the Benjamins, baby.


Imagine if there was a way to get a $5000/day vacation without some sort of massive head wound or organ failure?  Just imagine how wonderful a vacation with that budget could be.  Thrice-daily massages?  Check.  Helicopter rides to breakfast?  Check.  Unbelievable food and drink?  Check.

But all you get at a hospital for that basic rate is: bland food, an uncomfortable bed, constant interruptions to your sleep, the sounds of strangers and beeping machines.  Actual care (beyond vitals, changing linens, et cetera) costs extra.
 
2013-10-22 09:03:28 AM  
FTA: "The incentives in the American health care system point in the opposite direction. In the United States, keeping an all-but-dead patient alive on life support in a hospital bed generates income for the hospital, for as long as its bills get paid."

And there it is. Our single-payer system means taxpayers pay for the beds, which gets many people grumbling, while in America you get to keep your bed as long as you keep feeding the meter personally.

Money sways public opinion just as much, if not moreso, than ethical issues. Ethics vary wildly from one person to the next, but money is a constant.
 
2013-10-22 09:05:09 AM  

Arthen: We call them insurance companies here.


Most of the insurance companies off-load these folks to Medicare/Medicaid after they run out of money.
 
2013-10-22 09:06:27 AM  
This is horrifying.
 
2013-10-22 09:07:21 AM  

Voiceofreason01: Because their system actually works and Republicans


The article does sound like a librul derpfest.  The very second paragraph mumbles about healthcare reform and how the imaginary death panel issue that the Republicans screamed about nearly sunk healthcare reform--indicating that the article writer believes Obamacare was a much-needed step forward and not a hand-out to the insurance companies.

Then:  it goes on to explain why death panels are okay, which with the above is going to draw a lot of "SEE THEM THAR LIBRULS WANNA TAKE OUR GUNZ N SET UP DA DEATH PANELS!"
 
2013-10-22 09:10:46 AM  

factoryconnection: We're so far from having death panels that even the idea that doctors SHOULD talk about end-of-life options (not cutting the cord, but actually determining what the person wants) ends up causing a 4-year, ongoing rhetorical mess.

Personally, I'm torn: I can see how families, seeing sparks of improvement in a dying loved one would fight for more time but hospital beds cost many thousands per day, or up to a million dollars/year.  I personally wouldn't ever want to be that kind of burden.


I"m in the same boat. If I'm in a coma, give it a week. if nothing happens, pull the plug. There is no sense in wasting money, and hell a hospital bed, on what could happen.
 
2013-10-22 09:11:11 AM  

factoryconnection: But all you get at a hospital for that basic rate is: bland food, an uncomfortable bed, constant interruptions to your sleep, the sounds of strangers and beeping machines.


So, you're saying it's like a Carnival Cruise?
 
2013-10-22 09:11:11 AM  
We don't have HMO death panels in Canada. We have socialized medicine like all moral countries do. Our medical decisions are made by Dr.s in consultation with their patients, not by Skippy the unpaid intern at FarkYouPayMe MediCorp.
 
2013-10-22 09:13:31 AM  
So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."

/Besides, the reason Canadians aren't upset is because they have no balls.  Obviously.
 
2013-10-22 09:17:10 AM  

Phinn: So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."

/Besides, the reason Canadians aren't upset is because they have no balls.  Obviously.


More like no qualms about pulling the plug on those who can only be kept alive in a bed.
 
2013-10-22 09:20:40 AM  

Phinn: So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."


And it's going to work, too.

/he finally learned to love Big Pharma
 
2013-10-22 09:20:53 AM  

Phinn: /Besides, the reason Canadians aren't upset is because they have no balls.  Obviously.


*submits wisenhiemer's name to the death panel list*

An orderly with a sharpened hockey stick (sorry, we couldn't find a sickle) will be visiting you shortly, eh.
 
2013-10-22 09:26:55 AM  

Tatterdemalian: Phinn: So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."

And it's going to work, too.

/he finally learned to love Big Pharma



I'll lay down a marker -- ObamaCare will cause its natural, inevitable, predictable and intended results.

But I have one proviso -- its stated goals are not its actual goals.

/Think of how great it would be if you were in the business of selling a lousy product that few people would buy voluntarily on their own, so you got the government to give you a tax break/subsidy so you could sell it to more people, and then when you decide even that's not good enough, you got the government to make everyone buy it at the point of a gun?  It's like printing money!

//A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude.
 
2013-10-22 09:29:00 AM  

Savage Bacon: Phinn: So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."

/Besides, the reason Canadians aren't upset is because they have no balls.  Obviously.

More like no qualms about pulling the plug on those who can only be kept alive in a bed.


The thing that irritates me is what "Death Panels" Palin was pointing to wasn't a group who would decide who would live and who would die, but rather sections of the ACA which covered end of life counseling for patients and their families, something heatlhcare providers have been fighting for for years, as most people don't undertsand that Uncle Charlie's a vegetable and there's no point in keeping him alive on life support indefinitely.

/Frontline did some hearthbreaking reporting about this subject years ago
 
2013-10-22 09:29:22 AM  

BATMANATEE: We don't have HMO death panels in Canada. We have socialized medicine like all moral countries do. Our medical decisions are made by Dr.s in consultation with their patients, not by Skippy the unpaid intern at FarkYouPayMe MediCorp.


Somehow it matters by whom the decision was made?  Like a doctor can't decide to pull the plug, because of financial numbers don't look good.  Since, I am sure they both would pull the plug for the same reason.  Why yes, the insurance personnel do look at you medical file before making the decision.  You have the same odds of surviving, oh wait except here, your own money may buy you some time.

/there is no morals to be discussed here
//decisions being made based on paperwork
 
2013-10-22 09:34:18 AM  
The problem is the death panels are limited to the terminally ill not the terminally stupid.
 
2013-10-22 09:35:26 AM  

Phinn: Tatterdemalian: Phinn: So, now that ObamaCare has been enacted, the Left's message has shifted from "Death panels?  P'sha!  Crazy lady!" to "Let's wring our hands and bow our heads solemnly as we consider all the good things made possible by death panels."

And it's going to work, too.

/he finally learned to love Big Pharma

I'll lay down a marker -- ObamaCare will cause its natural, inevitable, predictable and intended results.

But I have one proviso -- its stated goals are not its actual goals.

/Think of how great it would be if you were in the business of selling a lousy product that few people would buy voluntarily on their own, so you got the government to give you a tax break/subsidy so you could sell it to more people, and then when you decide even that's not good enough, you got the government to make everyone buy it at the point of a gun?  It's like printing money!

//A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude.


Just to put it into context, you have stated in previous threads that you believe that a government taxing you to provide electricity and roads is 'slavery'.

/You keep using that word . . .
//Slaves aren't allowed to leave any time they want to.
 
2013-10-22 09:35:58 AM  

lack of warmth: Somehow it matters by whom the decision was made? Like a doctor can't decide to pull the plug, because of financial numbers don't look good. Since, I am sure they both would pull the plug for the same reason. Why yes, the insurance personnel do look at you medical file before making the decision. You have the same odds of surviving, oh wait except here, your own money may buy you some time.


That's not actually the case.  Doctors can't decide to take someone off life support; only the family/next of kin can do that.  So long as insurance is footing the bill, they get the care their family demands, and once the insurance runs out, they get dumped on Medicare/Medicaid.

Its incredibly wasteful, and those left in that sort of machine-generated limbo are frequently in discomfort and neglected, but that's how we apparently want the system to "work" as we're so irrationally afraid of dealing with death in our society.
 
2013-10-22 09:37:22 AM  

Phinn: //A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude.


Are you a farking idiot?

Wait a second; the answer is pretty clear.  Make that a statement rather than a question: you are a farking idiot.
 
2013-10-22 09:48:24 AM  
Everything is rationed.

If not by money, then time, age, etc.
 
2013-10-22 09:52:05 AM  
My wife is Canadian.  Her grandfather was a CO/medic in WWII, and took part in the Normandy landing as well as multiple battles all the way to Berlin.  Despite not being wealthy, he and his wife both received excellent medical care, with him living into his 90's and she still going strong and very comfortable in a nursing facility.  He was still alive when the "death panel" prattle started circulating in 2007-2008, and he said something about it that stuck with me; "If I got care instead of a child, or a women, or a young father, I wouldn't be able to live with the shame."  And that, I think, puts the entire issue in a nutshell.  Countries like Canada and Western Europe are just as passionate about individual freedom and personal responsibility as the United States, but their cultures promote BOTH sides of freedom-being able to build the life you want without unreasonable restraint from society at large, but with the expectation that you are man enough to to be willing to sacrifice when its called for.
 
2013-10-22 10:05:29 AM  

lack of warmth: BATMANATEE: We don't have HMO death panels in Canada. We have socialized medicine like all moral countries do. Our medical decisions are made by Dr.s in consultation with their patients, not by Skippy the unpaid intern at FarkYouPayMe MediCorp.

Somehow it matters by whom the decision was made?  Like a doctor can't decide to pull the plug, because of financial numbers don't look good.  Since, I am sure they both would pull the plug for the same reason.  Why yes, the insurance personnel do look at you medical file before making the decision.  You have the same odds of surviving, oh wait except here, your own money may buy you some time.

/there is no morals to be discussed here
//decisions being made based on paperwork


Your opinion on the matter is immaterial.  This is only for when you're unable to communicate, so your family is making decisions on your behalf, and the caregiver is disagreeing.

It's a bizarre article, because it keeps on mentioning the cost considerations over and over, but then what the article actually says over and over is that it officially and unofficially takes the cost question out of the equation. It also doesn't say what I suspect is the truth, that the panel could be presented with the question in either direction: As everyone is assuming, with the doctors wanting to pull the plug and the family resisting; or with the family wanting to pull the plug and the doctors thinking there's a chance for recovery. Presumably the latter is less common than the other, but it could happen.

Anyway, by and large, doctors in Ontario in hospitals are not directly tied to the finances of the hospital - their pay comes directly from the government based on a per procedure rate, and the hospital - less doctor fees - is funded separately. From anything I know, Doctors never get bonuses or penalties from the financial performance - whatever direction it goes in - of the hospital. Hospitals get paid based on procedures as well, so the organization with the benefit to pulling the plug is the province, and their input is only reflected in published public policy which is openly view-able, and the focuss there is the patient's best interests.  Doctors, who have taken theHippocratic Oath, and who areinsulated from financial gain in these situations, can hopefully be trusted to make those decisions from a moral perspective.  Nobody is perfect, and other considerations will always creep in, but this is the best way I can think of to help people make decisions on the basis of care.

And then, after all that, if the patient is uncommunicative, and the medical team disagrees with the next of kin, then it goes to the panel. Asthe article says, the panel is required by law and mandate to consider the patients best interests before anything else. The panel is composed of people from inside and outside the system, and again, they have no personal interest in the financial performance of the system other than that which all citizens have, and their decisions are documented, and based on publicly known criteria.

No person in Ontario or Canada would say that our system is flawless, or doesn't need changes in whatever area, but a lot of work has been put in to help decisions be made as free as possible from the effects of money.

How does that compare to the states?

Does treatment get determined by the insurance company, or by the doctor? Does the person making the decision have a financial benefit to stopping treatment? Are the criteria publicly available?
 
2013-10-22 10:07:14 AM  

Phinn: I'll lay down a marker -- ObamaCare will cause its natural, inevitable, predictable and intended results.

But I have one proviso -- its stated goals are not its actual goals.


Wow. That has got to be the vaguest prediction I've ever seen on Fark. It really makes zero difference what happens, you'll get to say "See? Exactly what I said would happen!" and be completely accurate.

"X will cause Y. Y is... something. You mark my words."
 
2013-10-22 10:07:45 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: lack of warmth: Somehow it matters by whom the decision was made? Like a doctor can't decide to pull the plug, because of financial numbers don't look good. Since, I am sure they both would pull the plug for the same reason. Why yes, the insurance personnel do look at you medical file before making the decision. You have the same odds of surviving, oh wait except here, your own money may buy you some time.

That's not actually the case.  Doctors can't decide to take someone off life support; only the family/next of kin can do that.  So long as insurance is footing the bill, they get the care their family demands, and once the insurance runs out, they get dumped on Medicare/Medicaid.

Its incredibly wasteful, and those left in that sort of machine-generated limbo are frequently in discomfort and neglected, but that's how we apparently want the system to "work" as we're so irrationally afraid of dealing with death in our society.


You misunderstood the post.  The doctors making the decision is the Canadian death panel, I wasn't referring to American doctors.  The person I was replying to is Canadian.  As for the American system, when the insurance company bails, Medicare/Medicaid doesn't pick up till the family runs out of money.  How many folks do you know are willing to go into poverty for a family member who may never wake?  In all seriousness, the idea of going broke has led many American families to pull the plug.

/just emptying the bank account doesn't do it, you must also give up a job to fall below the income requirement to get Medicare/ Medicaid
//met a guy who had to quit his job, empty his bank account before he could get a kidney transplant because his insurance bailed.
 
2013-10-22 10:10:49 AM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Phinn: I'll lay down a marker -- ObamaCare will cause its natural, inevitable, predictable and intended results.

But I have one proviso -- its stated goals are not its actual goals.

Wow. That has got to be the vaguest prediction I've ever seen on Fark. It really makes zero difference what happens, you'll get to say "See? Exactly what I said would happen!" and be completely accurate.

"X will cause Y. Y is... something. You mark my words."



img.fark.net
 
2013-10-22 10:12:55 AM  
  Who's making these decisions now?
What happens when insurance reaches a maximum?

Would you rather have a quasi-judicial body making the decisions in accordance with a well defined public police, subject to legislative overview?  Or would you rather have the decision made by a corporate interest with a financial stake in pulling the plug?

The sad truth is that these decisions do need to be made from time to time.
 
2013-10-22 10:17:09 AM  

lack of warmth: //met a guy who had to quit his job, empty his bank account before he could get a kidney transplant because his insurance bailed.


And somehow conservatives are convinced that this is far better for the economy... because reasons... also freedom and such.
 
2013-10-22 10:17:10 AM  

draypresct: //Slaves aren't allowed to leave any time they want to.


How can someone on welfare "voluntarily" leave and still survive?  I know they can get a job and be kicked off of/leave welfare, but to just decide to quit getting benefits is tantamount to suicide.

This was one of the biggest tricks the democrats pulled after the civil war. They realized they couldn't keep slaves anymore, but if they kept a carrot dangling in front of them, they would keep voting for them. Democrats have no intention of pulling anyone out of poverty, because they would lose voters. Voluntary slavery (or what ever you want to rename it for PC and to keep the wool pulled over their eyes).
 
2013-10-22 10:19:17 AM  

johneee: Your opinion on the matter is immaterial.


As well as your's, but that isn't stopping us from discussing the topic.  You sure put a lot of trust in doctors as some high moral professionals.  I don't have such trust and no, I don't buy the concept that doctors will always do what they can for the patient with disregard for budgets when all doctors are employed by someone; whether it be an American HMO or the Canadian government.
/you sound like a Michael Moore fan
 
2013-10-22 10:22:40 AM  

dinomyar: draypresct: //Slaves aren't allowed to leave any time they want to.

How can someone on welfare "voluntarily" leave and still survive?  I know they can get a job and be kicked off of/leave welfare, but to just decide to quit getting benefits is tantamount to suicide.

This was one of the biggest tricks the democrats pulled after the civil war. They realized they couldn't keep slaves anymore, but if they kept a carrot dangling in front of them, they would keep voting for them. Democrats have no intention of pulling anyone out of poverty, because they would lose voters. Voluntary slavery (or what ever you want to rename it for PC and to keep the wool pulled over their eyes).


Christ, that was stupid.
 
2013-10-22 10:24:11 AM  

lack of warmth: As for the American system, when the insurance company bails, Medicare/Medicaid doesn't pick up till the family runs out of money. How many folks do you know are willing to go into poverty for a family member who may never wake? In all seriousness, the idea of going broke has led many American families to pull the plug.

/just emptying the bank account doesn't do it, you must also give up a job to fall below the income requirement to get Medicare/ Medicaid
//met a guy who had to quit his job, empty his bank account before he could get a kidney transplant because his insurance bailed.


Huh? Was this guy already on dialysis? Medicare pays for 80% of dialysis regardless of means or age.

Medicare also pays for transplants, but there is one requirement (beyond the obvious ones about a reasonable ability to live through the procedure and needing a procedure): you have to have some indication of being able to pay for your immunosuppression after Medicare stops (roughly 3 years after transplant, IIRC).

So quitting his job and emptying his bank account would probably result in him not being chosen for a transplant.

/I'm probably cynical about this because I've heard similar stories that turned out to be BS, e.g. a guy telling his girlfriend he's too sick from chronic kidney disease (CKD) to look for a job. He doesn't see a doctor because he's planning to wait until end-stage KD so he'll get a transplant instead of going on dialysis. All complete BS - the transplant system does not work that way, and this would be one of the dumbest things you could do if you actually had CKD, especially if it had already progressed to the point that you were too sick to work. Eventually (years later!) she kicked him out.
 
2013-10-22 10:28:03 AM  

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: So, you're saying it's like a Carnival Cruise?


No, the sh*tters in hospitals are much more reliable.
 
2013-10-22 10:29:08 AM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Phinn: I'll lay down a marker -- ObamaCare will cause its natural, inevitable, predictable and intended results.

But I have one proviso -- its stated goals are not its actual goals.

Wow. That has got to be the vaguest prediction I've ever seen on Fark. It really makes zero difference what happens, you'll get to say "See? Exactly what I said would happen!" and be completely accurate.

"X will cause Y. Y is... something. You mark my words."


It WOULD be kind of cool to work on a FARK prediction pool.  Major matters get hashed out in the forums all the time, and we all have a pretty good idea of where the idological lines run.  We put up a few specific predictions, say that in 6 months the obamacare website is successfully processing over or under 75% of site visitors as of April 2 2014.  Lay  down the markers and see how we do.

/grist
 
2013-10-22 10:29:11 AM  

Phinn: img.fark.net


I'm not sure what you thought posting someone else's more specific prediction was going to prove. It's still not very specific, but you set a ridiculously low bar.
 
Displayed 50 of 130 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report