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(WTOP)   Study says spanking your child could lead to future aggression, but only if you are doing it wrong   (wtop.com) divider line 149
    More: Stupid, cognitive development, aggression  
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2743 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Oct 2013 at 1:29 PM (39 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-21 02:00:48 PM
Don't forget what Maddox Says....

(Oblig)


www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net

and

www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net
 
2013-10-21 02:01:58 PM

FatherChaos: I think spanking is much more humane than doing this to a child.
[bios.weddingbee.com image 250x262]


Can't argue with that. It takes a real sonuvabiatch to put a kid in overalls...
 
2013-10-21 02:02:32 PM

mediablitz: I've said it many times: If you have to spank a 3-5 year old, you are the loser. You have to actually put in WORK to raise good kids. Lazy parents spank because they are lazy.



Blanket statement is blankety.
 
2013-10-21 02:03:10 PM
What I don't get is why stop with kids? If spanking is such effective discipline let's start spanking adults. That'll learn 'em.

Missed your work deadline? Time for a spanking.

Speeding? Get my belt.

DUI? You best believe that's a paddling.

Once you spank them a couple times, they'll never commit another crime or miss a deadline.
 
2013-10-21 02:05:40 PM

pedrop357: Best Princess Celestia: And if you dont discipline them, you get the young generations of today.

How terrible.

Record low crime rate, pregnancy, drug overdose deaths, etc.

How truly terrible today's youth are compared to those of generations past.



Yeah, but they feel like the world owes them a living.
 
2013-10-21 02:07:06 PM

js34603: What I don't get is why stop with kids? If spanking is such effective discipline let's start spanking adults. That'll learn 'em.

Missed your work deadline? Time for a spanking.

Speeding? Get my belt.

DUI? You best believe that's a paddling.

Once you spank them a couple times, they'll never commit another crime or miss a deadline.



Not that caning would take off as a punishment in the legal system here, but.......

Remember that spoiled f*ck who was caned after spray painting cars in Singapore?  He deserved it.
 
2013-10-21 02:07:07 PM
If you don't smack you kid around, sooner or later someone else will. And they won't be thinking "I'm only doing this because I love you"
So you keep cranking out those smart mouthed, self-entitled little snowflakes, and we shall see what happened when they find a stranger in the Alps.
 
2013-10-21 02:08:00 PM

mediablitz: I've said it many times: If you have to spank a 3-5 year old, you are the loser. You have to actually put in WORK to raise good kids. Lazy parents spank because they are lazy.


...and maybe lazy parents have other bad habits that contribute to their children having poor outcomes in school (uninvolved in homework, ignoring report cards, no tutors when needed, etc.).  In other words, spanking may have nothing to do with future aggression, but simply be correlated with lazy parents.
 
2013-10-21 02:09:33 PM

The_Sponge: pedrop357: Best Princess Celestia: And if you dont discipline them, you get the young generations of today.

How terrible.

Record low crime rate, pregnancy, drug overdose deaths, etc.

How truly terrible today's youth are compared to those of generations past.


Yeah, but they feel like the world owes them a living.


Agreed to an extent.  But that's another issue.  Helicopter parenting really needs to be viewed as a form of abuse.

Any verbal or physical treatment of kids that resulted in the same kind of pathologies as helicopter parenting would be called abuse.

If spanking kids left them without so many basic skills as adults and caused so many to be dependent on their parents, etc. it would have been banned years ago.
 
2013-10-21 02:10:29 PM

js34603: What I don't get is why stop with kids? If spanking is such effective discipline let's start spanking adults. That'll learn 'em.

Missed your work deadline? Time for a spanking.

Speeding? Get my belt.

DUI? You best believe that's a paddling.

Once you spank them a couple times, they'll never commit another crime or miss a deadline.


Singapore still uses caning as a legal punishment....AND they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
 
2013-10-21 02:10:56 PM
I got the belt for misbehaving all the time as a kid and I turned out fine.

Full of self-hatred and prone to addiction and violent losses of temper with an aversion to emotional involvement with other people but I never killed any humans.
 
2013-10-21 02:11:24 PM
img.fark.net

When my son looks like this I know he just ignited his latest experiment and I should quickly find cover.
 
2013-10-21 02:14:16 PM

JRoo: I got the belt for misbehaving all the time as a kid and I turned out fine.

Full of self-hatred and prone to addiction and violent losses of temper with an aversion to emotional involvement with other people but I never killed any humans.


Today is still only half-over...
 
2013-10-21 02:14:38 PM
I got spanked as a kid, and I turned out just fine.

Except for the time my dad tried to spank me when I was finally old enough/big enough to defend myself, and I had to stab him with a pair of scissors.

"You want to call the cops? Fine. I'll go to juvy, then foster care, and your career as school teacher will be over. Your call."

I pretty much ruled the roost after that.

Why no, I don't keep in contact with my parents, why do you ask?
 
2013-10-21 02:16:03 PM

Corn_Fed: groppet: I can think of only a few times I was spanked and I did deserve it. It was only used as a last measure after everything else had failed. And I was a little ahole that was always pushing the limits.

So...you were an ahole who was "always" pushing limits.  Therefore, since you were "always" pushing limits, the spankings really didn't do anything to change your bad behavior pattern. You continued to push limits, even after being spanked. Thus, an ineffective punishment.


perhaps.  but then the non-spanking discipline efforts didn't stop the limit-pushing either.  so non-spanking discipline, by your logic, is also an ineffective punishment.  so if non-spanking discipline is ineffective, and spanking discipline is ineffective, your solution, presumably, is to not use any discipline at all.  and that doesn't seem like the way to go.

maybe we shouldn't use the presence of limit-pushing as the measure for or against a discipline.  i would be suspicious about any child who didn't push limits.  i don't want my sons to ever stop pushing limits for as long as they live.  that's how you succeed in this farked up life.

any style of discipline has consequences.  kids who aren't spanked will still push limits, even with non-spanking discipline efforts.  and since these kids can get away with whatever they want without fear of punishment ("sure, lady, i give a fark about your time out.  i just figured out i can get up and walk away.  whattaya gonna do, put me in time out again?  i'll just walk away again.  i can repeat this all night.  can you?  don't you have laundry to do?  and now the phone's ringing.  take your pick.  i have nothing better to do.  c'mon, let's see what you got.  i love you mommy!  i'm thirsty, i want a Coke! gimme a Coke!"), the condition worsens and they grow ever more spoiled as time goes on.  i can't stand kids like that, and i can't stand their parents.

aggression, eh?  OH NOES!  meh, here's a drumset, a football, and a tae kwon do outfit.  do something constructive and creative with that aggression.  great, now you're too busy to push limits, plus you'll be tired when you get home.  have a good time, kid!
 
2013-10-21 02:19:06 PM
Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?
 
2013-10-21 02:22:35 PM

PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?


Spanking is not hitting.
 
2013-10-21 02:24:51 PM

PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?


Let's apply this logic to other forms of discipline...

Why do you want to take away your kid's beloved possessions?
Why do you want to isolate your child from his or her family and friends?
Why do you want to bribe your children?

The answer to those questions, and the hitting question, is the same for any non-abusive parent.  To discourage bad behavior/encourage good behavior in the hopes that your child will grow into the kind of adult you'd want them to be.
 
2013-10-21 02:25:05 PM

The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.


I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.
 
2013-10-21 02:26:50 PM

thatboyoverthere: brimed03: mediablitz: I've said it many times: If you have to spank a 3-5 year old, you are the loser. You have to actually put in WORK to raise good kids. Lazy parents spank because they are lazy.

Oversimplification.

He is somewhat right. The problem is that spanking quickly becomes the one size cuts all thing to any problems. It gets too easy to just spank. Spanking should be held when nothing else works and as a threat . I feared a spankingbas a kid even though I only got ot like three times.


Absolutely. But statements like "spanking=lazy parents" doesn't help. Lots of reasons for spanking exist. We can and should debate their validity, but overbroad dismissals don't help.
 
2013-10-21 02:26:56 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: "Beat your kids twice a day. If you don't know why, they do."
--My Dad


Ain't nobody got time for that.  My dad saved it all up each night.  I deserved almost all of them and got away with a lot more.  Either that or my parents were just tired of it by then since I'm the youngest of 4 boys.

Mom used Hotwheels track to beat us.  I want to form a support group.
 
2013-10-21 02:27:22 PM

mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.



Nope.

And if spanking equals "hitting", then I'm guilty of hitting various women during sexy time.
 
2013-10-21 02:27:40 PM

FatherChaos: I think spanking is much more humane than doing this to a child.
[bios.weddingbee.com image 250x262]


Not only are child leashes a good idea, they should be MANDATORY.

/I work in a public library, I know what I'm talking bout
//Whatever happened to inside voices and walking feet?
 
2013-10-21 02:27:45 PM
 
2013-10-21 02:28:14 PM

js34603: let's start spanking adults


Way ahead of ya, bro...

freeinterracialpornvideo.com

dickpound.com
 
2013-10-21 02:29:49 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: Well, lookey here, y'all

[s22.postimg.org image 850x566]
http://pcclib10afall2012burton.pbworks.com/w/page/60375707/Kellee%20 In gram



CSB:

It used to be allowed at my elementary school (in WA) back in 1985.  However, the principal would call the parents for permission first.

/Once asked my Mom if she would give said permission.
//She said yes.
///Fortunately, I never got into that level of trouble at school.
 
2013-10-21 02:30:43 PM

PsiChick: Why do you want to hit your kids?


I don't have any kids, so I can't answer that particular question. However, if you want to know why I want to hit your kids, it's because I've met them.
 
2013-10-21 02:31:17 PM

ChipNASA: Don't forget what Maddox Says....


I think i know why Maddox is so angry now.
 
2013-10-21 02:31:29 PM

The_Sponge: mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.


Nope.

And if spanking equals "hitting", then I'm guilty of hitting various women during sexy time.


Yeah, but that's consensual, silly :P
 
2013-10-21 02:32:36 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Seriously, all you "anti-spanking" people must not have kids. Let the childless dictate parenting, no wonder this current generation of kids are fat, bullied, Nintendo-playing chumps.

I speak from experience on this, as my step-son Kody used to be one of 'em. Little shiat had all the latest games and would still smart mouth his mom and I. That came to a stop after I showed him the belt a few times and cut the wire on his game. Now all he's says is "yes sir" or "no sir" and he spends about half the day out in the woods hunting and skinning squirrels.

The only thing we had to discipline him for recently was taking his buck knife to school, but it was an honest mistake on his part and he owned up to it.

Bottom line is my daddy spanked me and I turned out fine, and now I spank my son and it's done a world of good for that boy.


--------

All spanking did for me is teach me to fight back and develop a high tolerance for pain and a complete hatred for authority. I guess I can thank it for making me learn not to take shiat from anyone and learning how to fight. Hit me? I hit back--come at me bro. Authority must never be followed blindly--sometimes it DOES need to be questioned. I guess the difference is that I was being spanked for no reason. I was a very square kid with controlling parents who didn't get into trouble. What they were doing to me was wrong.

/Female
//Could completely take out my 6'3'' 350+lb father who had military training.
 
2013-10-21 02:34:11 PM

The_Sponge: mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.


Nope.

And if spanking equals "hitting", then I'm guilty of hitting various women during sexy time.


So then the question becomes "why do you want to use this sexualized act to control children?"
 
2013-10-21 02:34:30 PM
FUNWITHSHARPS:
/Female
//Could completely take out my 6'3'' 350+lb father who had military training.


At that size, a set of 3 stairs could take him out.
 
2013-10-21 02:34:37 PM
I'm sure I got spanked at least once, but it's watching my oldest brother get regularly spanked (he was a horrible, horrible child) that really convinced me to be a good kid.  I figure this is a good compromise for the spanking/no-spanking crowds.  After all, it's not really the spanking that brings the message home, it's more the notion that "this shiat just got real".

 Parents that try to calmly reason with 3-5 year olds usually fail to get that message home.
 
2013-10-21 02:34:38 PM

mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.


Nope.

And if spanking equals "hitting", then I'm guilty of hitting various women during sexy time.

Yeah, but that's consensual, silly :P



1) Yeah, but I don't even ask permission....I start with something very light, and then I decide on how to move forward given the reaction.

2) And if you want to get uber technical, spanking is using an open hand to hit somebody's posterior.  However, there is a world of difference between somebody saying "I spank my kids" versus "I hit my kids".  Besides, isn't spanking different from hitting if we had to create a different word for it?
 
2013-10-21 02:35:43 PM

udhq: So then the question becomes "why do you want to use this sexualized act to control children?"



Er um.....I don't have kids.

/So I have that going for me.
//Which is nice.
 
2013-10-21 02:36:19 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Seriously, all you "anti-spanking" people must not have kids. Let the childless dictate parenting, no wonder this current generation of kids are fat, bullied, Nintendo-playing chumps.

I speak from experience on this, as my step-son Kody used to be one of 'em. Little shiat had all the latest games and would still smart mouth his mom and I. That came to a stop after I showed him the belt a few times and cut the wire on his game. Now all he's says is "yes sir" or "no sir" and he spends about half the day out in the woods hunting and skinning squirrels.

The only thing we had to discipline him for recently was taking his buck knife to school, but it was an honest mistake on his part and he owned up to it.

Bottom line is my daddy spanked me and I turned out fine, and now I spank my son and it's done a world of good for that boy.


--------

All spanking did for me is teach me to fight back,develop a high tolerance for pain and a complete hatred for authority. I guess I can thank it for making me learn to not take shiat from anyone and learning how to fight. Hit me? I hit back--come at me bro. Authority must never be followed blindly--sometimes it DOES need to be questioned. I guess the difference is that I was being spanked for no reason. I was a very square kid with controlling parents who didn't get into trouble. What they were doing to me was wrong.

/Female
//Could completely take out my 6'3'' 350+lb father who had military training.
 
2013-10-21 02:36:31 PM

jshine: mediablitz: I've said it many times: If you have to spank a 3-5 year old, you are the loser. You have to actually put in WORK to raise good kids. Lazy parents spank because they are lazy.

...and maybe lazy parents have other bad habits that contribute to their children having poor outcomes in school (uninvolved in homework, ignoring report cards, no tutors when needed, etc.).  In other words, spanking may have nothing to do with future aggression, but simply be correlated with lazy parents.


If that's true, that it still doesn't support the use of spanking, in fact it implies that spanking is a sign of bad parenting.
 
2013-10-21 02:36:33 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Let's apply this logic to other forms of discipline...

Why do you want to take away your kid's beloved possessions?
Why do you want to isolate your child from his or her family and friends?
Why do you want to bribe your children?

The answer to those questions, and the hitting question, is the same for any non-abusive parent.  To discourage bad behavior/encourage good behavior in the hopes that your child will grow into the kind of adult you'd want them to be.


...Except that adult society reflects bribery, confiscation of property, and loss of liberty, where it does not reflect hitting as punishment.

Sin_City_Superhero: PsiChick: Why do you want to hit your kids?

I don't have any kids, so I can't answer that particular question. However, if you want to know why I want to hit your kids, it's because I've met them.


I know you're being sarcastic, but my little sister (I had to be her primary caretaker for about a year) actually is a very helpful and considerate kid, given that all eight-year-olds are prone to things like thinking Justin Beiber is amazing. You don't have to spank to get results.
 
2013-10-21 02:37:16 PM

mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.
Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.


The punishment aspect of spanking doesn't come from physical pain.  (The average reasonably-active child, in any given week, causes themselves more pain than they would experience from getting a spanking.  Causing enough pain to act as a real deterrent, in and of itself, would mean beating the kid black and blue- and that's not a spanking.  That's a beating.)  The main punishment is fear- the anticipation of the spanking, and the oh-shiat-I-crossed-that-last-line feeling, being far worse than the thing itself.  Depending on the circumstances, embarrassment can also play a major part.

It's a mistake to think that, because it revolves around a physical act, that it's a primarily physical punishment.
 
2013-10-21 02:38:51 PM

The_Sponge: mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: mafiageek1980: The_Sponge: PsiChick: Better question: Why do you  want to hit your kids?

Spanking is not hitting.

I HOPE you are joking with that statement.

Spanking=hitting your kid as a form of discipline.


Nope.

And if spanking equals "hitting", then I'm guilty of hitting various women during sexy time.

Yeah, but that's consensual, silly :P


1) Yeah, but I don't even ask permission....I start with something very light, and then I decide on how to move forward given the reaction.

2) And if you want to get uber technical, spanking is using an open hand to hit somebody's posterior.  However, there is a world of difference between somebody saying "I spank my kids" versus "I hit my kids".  Besides, isn't spanking different from hitting if we had to create a different word for it?


Alrighty,

1). Is there a safeword involved? Otherwise, unless you pre-discussed it with your bottom/submissive/other, it's wrong.
2). Again, Spanking=hitting. There's no other way around it. YOU doing it with your lover (provided it was consensual/have a safeword/have their permission) is one thing. Hitting a child that has no say-so in the matter IS abuse and is hitting.
 
2013-10-21 02:39:00 PM

PsiChick: You don't have to spank to get results.



It depends on the kid.

/Sure as hell needed it when I was a child.
//Was the poster child for ADD before ADD was even a term.
 
2013-10-21 02:39:48 PM

FUNWITHSHARPS: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Seriously, all you "anti-spanking" people must not have kids. Let the childless dictate parenting, no wonder this current generation of kids are fat, bullied, Nintendo-playing chumps.

I speak from experience on this, as my step-son Kody used to be one of 'em. Little shiat had all the latest games and would still smart mouth his mom and I. That came to a stop after I showed him the belt a few times and cut the wire on his game. Now all he's says is "yes sir" or "no sir" and he spends about half the day out in the woods hunting and skinning squirrels.

The only thing we had to discipline him for recently was taking his buck knife to school, but it was an honest mistake on his part and he owned up to it.

Bottom line is my daddy spanked me and I turned out fine, and now I spank my son and it's done a world of good for that boy.

--------

All spanking did for me is teach me to fight back and develop a high tolerance for pain and a complete hatred for authority. I guess I can thank it for making me learn not to take shiat from anyone and learning how to fight. Hit me? I hit back--come at me bro. Authority must never be followed blindly--sometimes it DOES need to be questioned. I guess the difference is that I was being spanked for no reason. I was a very square kid with controlling parents who didn't get into trouble. What they were doing to me was wrong.

/Female
//Could completely take out my 6'3'' 350+lb father who had military training.


I'm not sure that spanking was the problem.  Wouldn't you have developed authority issues had your parents punished you using other methods for no reason?  Randomly scolded you verbally, took your stuff, locked you in rooms/forced time-outs, no dinner, etc, etc?

I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this - but I think this is why so spanking discussions always get so heated.  Advocates like me are thinking of their parents....I was very lucky, both my parents worked really hard at being good parents.  They weren't lazy, they didn't default to beating their kids for no reason, in my entire life I was physically punished less than 10 times.  It was never out of frustration or anger, it was a proportional response to my actions.

Anti-spankers are thinking of people who are physically abusive, beat their children for no reason, utilize no other forms of discipline, and generally suck.
 
2013-10-21 02:40:23 PM

mafiageek1980: 1). Is there a safeword involved? Otherwise, unless you pre-discussed it with your bottom/submissive/other, it's wrong.
2). Again, Spanking=hitting. There's no other way around it. YOU doing it with your lover (provided it was consensual/have a safeword/have their permission) is one thing. Hitting a child that has no say-so in the matter IS abuse and is hitting.



1) No, but I start out so light it doesn't really matter.....it's more like a tap.

2) I've never had the need for a safe word just because I'm not into the really kinky stuff.
 
2013-10-21 02:41:50 PM
In the end, I lead a happy, healthy, totally nonviolent and successful life.

All spanking did to me was give me a seething hatred against idiots who need to use violence and fear to control their children, and a resolve to make sure that decision hurts my parents more than it ever did me.

Every couple of years when they try to reestablish contact with me and my family, I send them the same form letter that as a consequence of their actions, they will go to their graves without ever having met their grandchildren.

I urge all children of spankers to do the same.
 
2013-10-21 02:42:06 PM

mafiageek1980: Hitting a child that has no say-so in the matter IS abuse and is hitting.



No, proper spanking is not abuse.

/Hated it when I was a kid.
//Told myself I would never do it as a parent.
///But now that I'm older and I see so many kids acting like little shiats, I would properly do it if I became a father.
////Was spanked and ended up just fine.
 
2013-10-21 02:43:12 PM

udhq: In the end, I lead a happy, healthy, totally nonviolent and successful life.

All spanking did to me was give me a seething hatred against idiots who need to use violence and fear to control their children, and a resolve to make sure that decision hurts my parents more than it ever did me.

Every couple of years when they try to reestablish contact with me and my family, I send them the same form letter that as a consequence of their actions, they will go to their graves without ever having met their grandchildren.

I urge all children of spankers to do the same.



Oh boo hoo.

Just because you had a shiatty childhood, don't expect me to disown my parents because I was spanked as a kid.
 
2013-10-21 02:44:27 PM

The_Sponge: PsiChick: You don't have to spank to get results.


It depends on the kid.

/Sure as hell needed it when I was a child.
//Was the poster child for ADD before ADD was even a term.


I've never had that experience. You're bigger than even the most unruly children, and every kid loves cookies and ice cream. 'Clean your room and you get a treat' works wonders, and you can phase it out as long as you replace the treat with a verbal reward (i.e. "great job!"). They pick up on what you want pretty quick if you're patient.
 
2013-10-21 02:46:34 PM

Cheron: [img.fark.net image 320x240]

When my son looks like this I know he just ignited his latest experiment and I should quickly find cover.


I LOL'd:  well-played!

/so you have a budding Walter White:  could be worse.....
// call me if he starts manufacturing MDMA
 
2013-10-21 02:47:40 PM

The_Sponge: udhq: In the end, I lead a happy, healthy, totally nonviolent and successful life.

All spanking did to me was give me a seething hatred against idiots who need to use violence and fear to control their children, and a resolve to make sure that decision hurts my parents more than it ever did me.

Every couple of years when they try to reestablish contact with me and my family, I send them the same form letter that as a consequence of their actions, they will go to their graves without ever having met their grandchildren.

I urge all children of spankers to do the same.


Oh boo hoo.

Just because you had a shiatty childhood, don't expect me to disown my parents because I was spanked as a kid.


I didn't have a shiatty childhood, I just grew up with parents who had shiatty childhoods and never learned that using violence to get what you want is NEVER acceptable.

I taught myself that lesson and was able to live pretty much happily independent from about age 12.
 
2013-10-21 02:50:22 PM

udhq: I didn't have a shiatty childhood, I just grew up with parents who had shiatty childhoods and never learned that using violence to get what you want is NEVER acceptable.

I taught myself that lesson and was able to live pretty much happily independent from about age 12.



It was shiatty enough where it just caused to you make a silly statement:


Every couple of years when they try to reestablish contact with me and my family, I send them the same form letter that as a consequence of their actions, they will go to their graves without ever having met their grandchildren.

I urge all children of spankers to do the same.



Really?  All people who were spanked as kids should disown their parents?

/Have a great relationship with my parents.
 
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