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(Telegraph)   More and more Europeans are beginning to ask whether the Euro, rather than cementing European unity as intended, is actually threatening it   (blogs.telegraph.co.uk) divider line 47
    More: Interesting, Europeans, Franco-German, EU institutions, International Institute for Strategic Studies, political structure, Eastern Michigan, monetary union, debt ratio  
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916 clicks; posted to Business » on 21 Oct 2013 at 12:28 PM (51 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



47 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-21 11:13:12 AM  
More and more?  How did I know this was Ambrose Evans-Pritchard before I clicked?
 
2013-10-21 11:17:53 AM  
Nothing destroys a friendship faster than when you get money involved.
 
2013-10-21 11:25:54 AM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Nothing destroys a friendship faster than when you get money involved.


Heck, family relations, too.
 
2013-10-21 12:57:47 PM  
Britland still desperately trying to justify their decision to not go with the Euro.
 
2013-10-21 01:01:20 PM  
A Telegraph article about how much the continent sucks.  That's new and fresh.
 
2013-10-21 01:01:21 PM  
So France and Germany are having disagreements? That's a new one.
 
2013-10-21 01:03:08 PM  

lilbjorn: Britland still desperately trying to justify their decision to not go with the Euro.


Really? All they have to do is look at Ireland. It's not that far away.
 
2013-10-21 01:06:48 PM  

Rapmaster2000: A Telegraph article about how much the continent sucks.  That's new and fresh.


You missed the part about the French former Euro booster who wrote a whole book about how it doesn't work?
 
2013-10-21 01:15:05 PM  
It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.
 
2013-10-21 01:15:37 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Rapmaster2000: A Telegraph article about how much the continent sucks.  That's new and fresh.

You missed the part about the French former Euro booster who wrote a whole book about how it doesn't work?


So they're all ready to surrender the effort.

Shocking.
 
2013-10-21 01:22:32 PM  

jjorsett: It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.


Yeah, and giving credit to those who predicted exactly this mess?  NEVER!
 
2013-10-21 01:22:34 PM  

Rapmaster2000: A Telegraph article about how much the continent sucks.  That's new and fresh.


You misspelled Torygraph
 
2013-10-21 01:39:11 PM  
Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.
 
2013-10-21 01:44:29 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.


Why does EU necessarily need the Euro?
 
2013-10-21 01:49:31 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.

Why does EU necessarily need the Euro?


Because otherwise it would have to use the Deutsche Mark?
 
2013-10-21 01:51:30 PM  
Maybe King Hopeandchange can provide some advice to the EU about transparency and uniting its citizens.
 
2013-10-21 01:55:57 PM  

enik: Maybe King Hopeandchange can provide some advice to the EU about transparency and uniting its citizens.


Raising doubt about the stability of the Euro is a US plot to keep the US dollar as the de facto international currency. Otherwise, the US would be more screwed that it currently is.
 
2013-10-21 02:00:13 PM  
The Euro decoupled political sovereignty and monetary sovereignty which resulted in the PIIGS nations having a currency which was much stronger than their individual economies merited, and which they could not control when their economies crashed.
 
2013-10-21 02:01:46 PM  
These guys loved it when they started using the Usian Dollar. The bailouts and welfare money made it just like the Euro is now to Greece and Spain.


i.imgur.com
 
2013-10-21 02:04:12 PM  

Stile4aly: The Euro decoupled political sovereignty and monetary sovereignty which resulted in the PIIGS nations having a currency which was much stronger than their individual economies merited, and which they could not control when their economies crashed.


Exactly.  Let Greece have their drachmas and the Italians their lira.  It's no accident that these were joke currencies pre-Euro.
 
2013-10-21 02:08:26 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Stile4aly: The Euro decoupled political sovereignty and monetary sovereignty which resulted in the PIIGS nations having a currency which was much stronger than their individual economies merited, and which they could not control when their economies crashed.

Exactly.  Let Greece have their drachmas and the Italians their lira.  It's no accident that these were joke currencies pre-Euro.


By that argument we should let Mississippi have its own currency that is different from that of California. Seriously, the economic disparity between those two states is much greater than the difference between Germany and Italy - and would be even greater without the federal government helping to equalize things. Europe needs to integrate more, not less.
 
2013-10-21 02:11:14 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.


There is a place in between.

For example, I could see a new economic union of North and Baltic Sea countries forming.  They have economies and cultures that are more in-sync with each other.  That would make centralization of economic policy more feasible.

The Romantic countries would be a little harder to mesh.  France isn't as dysfunctional as Spain or Italy, so they may want to look to the northwest and tie in with Ireland and the UK and instead.  And Ireland might need France to act as a counterbalance against the UK.  Of course, that assumes that the UK doesn't dissolve in the next 25 years due to Welsh and Scottish separatist movements.

The Balkins would be the hardest to mesh due to ethnic hatreds and recent civil war.  If the EU collapsed, I'd see them remain as small independent states.
 
2013-10-21 02:16:08 PM  

Dinjiin: Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.

There is a place in between.

For example, I could see a new economic union of North and Baltic Sea countries forming.  They have economies and cultures that are more in-sync with each other.  That would make centralization of economic policy more feasible.

The Romantic countries would be a little harder to mesh.  France isn't as dysfunctional as Spain or Italy, so they may want to look to the northwest and tie in with Ireland and the UK and instead.  And Ireland might need France to act as a counterbalance against the UK.  Of course, that assumes that the UK doesn't dissolve in the next 25 years due to Welsh and Scottish separatist movements.

The Balkins would be the hardest to mesh due to ethnic hatreds and recent civil war.  If the EU collapsed, I'd see them remain as small independent states.


Those separatist movements are what's going to save the Union. Look at Luxembourg, for example - they need the Union a lot more than the Union needs them. They're too small to be a major player on the world stage, but as part of the Union they can do many things. Wales, Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country - they don't need the UK, Spain, or France. They can be like Luxembourg - small countries, but part of the European Union and so therefore major players on the world stage.
 
2013-10-21 02:24:34 PM  

Lord Dimwit: JohnAnnArbor: Stile4aly: The Euro decoupled political sovereignty and monetary sovereignty which resulted in the PIIGS nations having a currency which was much stronger than their individual economies merited, and which they could not control when their economies crashed.

Exactly.  Let Greece have their drachmas and the Italians their lira.  It's no accident that these were joke currencies pre-Euro.

By that argument we should let Mississippi have its own currency that is different from that of California. Seriously, the economic disparity between those two states is much greater than the difference between Germany and Italy - and would be even greater without the federal government helping to equalize things. Europe needs to integrate more, not less.


Our states don't run their own economies as sovereign nations.  The EU members do.  That's the difference.
 
2013-10-21 02:26:01 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Lord Dimwit: JohnAnnArbor: Stile4aly: The Euro decoupled political sovereignty and monetary sovereignty which resulted in the PIIGS nations having a currency which was much stronger than their individual economies merited, and which they could not control when their economies crashed.

Exactly.  Let Greece have their drachmas and the Italians their lira.  It's no accident that these were joke currencies pre-Euro.

By that argument we should let Mississippi have its own currency that is different from that of California. Seriously, the economic disparity between those two states is much greater than the difference between Germany and Italy - and would be even greater without the federal government helping to equalize things. Europe needs to integrate more, not less.

Our states don't run their own economies as sovereign nations.  The EU members do.  That's the difference.


That's what I'm saying - they need to integrate more, not less. They're going to have to cede more sovereignty to the Union if they want to compete on the global market.
 
2013-10-21 02:30:51 PM  
Lord Dimwit:Exactly.  Let Greece have their drachmas and the Italians their lira.  It's no accident that these were joke currencies pre-Euro.

By that argument we should let Mississippi have its own currency that is different from that of California. Seriously, the economic disparity between those two states is much greater than the difference between Germany and Italy - and would be even greater without the federal government helping to equalize things. Europe needs to integrate more, not less.


It's not the same at all. All that Germany and Italy share is a currency but that's all they share. The worth of a shared Euro is undermined by multiple bodies with very different fiscal policies in each country. Mississippi and California have little say in how the US currency is run making the difference in their economic policies largely irrelevant. Mississippi would have trouble affecting the value of the US dollar even if it wanted to.

For currency purposes the US is a single block while Europe is still divided into multiple countries each trying to run the Euro like it was their own.
 
2013-10-21 02:31:09 PM  
The way I see it, the Euro is a great thing. It's not the Euro that is the problem. It is mismatched central banking and monetary policy that is the problem, plus premature growth and over-expansion.

They should not have allowed countries like Greece into the Community and the Eurozone until they were ready, which might have meant never given the entrenched culture of tax evasion, fraud, cronyism, etc.

They should not have pushed expansion.

A currency requires a uniform monetary policy, with government policy aligned to compliment and supplement it. Some European countries are deeply conservative, such as Germany. This is good for them. Other countries are not, which might be good in their circumstances. But if you hitch a race horse to a hippopotamus, you have a mismatched team that will pull against its members rather than pulling together.

The Euro should survive, but that may mean throwing some countries out of the Eurozone until their policies and their monetary needs are aligned sufficiently with Greater Europe.

The US dollar works not because the US is homogenous but because it's policy is united and its economy is one--a lot of national companies ensures this because they are the same everywhere with regional flavours perhaps, but common products, services, and management goals.

It's a tough market to crack for foreign retailers and other companies. But it works.

The French and Germans are somewhat mismatched but the things that unite them are stronger than the things that divide them, so they can adapt to each other.

The Eurozone and the European Community have fallen victim to the same sort of errors that afflict a large company when it tries to expand into new markets, or to grow too fast, or tries to expand geographically too vast. There is internal contradiction and conflict due to mismatches between timing, objectives, and different cultures.

Austro-Hungary fell apart. The German Confederation did not despite a great diversity of mutually antagonistic and distrustful mini-states.

Talk of the demise of the Euro and even the Community is premature I think. They can make this work. They need to pull back to leap forward (reculer pour mieux sauter).

Same old mistakes of growth. Nothing new or unfamiliar, we've all seen these mistakes before.
 
2013-10-21 02:38:44 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Those separatist movements are what's going to save the Union. Look at Luxembourg, for example - they need the Union a lot more than the Union needs them. They're too small to be a major player on the world stage, but as part of the Union they can do many things. Wales, Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country - they don't need the UK, Spain, or France. They can be like Luxembourg - small countries, but part of the European Union and so therefore major players on the world stage.


Nod.  An economic bloc allows a country to keep its national identity and culture while being joined at the hip economically, which is the best of both worlds.  I could see the UK and Belgium becoming more and more decentralized to the point that they break apart, yet would remain as economically tied as ever under the trading bloc.

The only catch comes down to the power structure.  If the EU breaks into a number of smaller economic unions, the smaller states may be leery of having one major power being an overly dominating force. I really see France being the country everyone wants to keep the other major powers at bay.  I imagine similar struggles in central-eastern Europe as well.
 
2013-10-21 03:28:36 PM  
Wat

I remember the ads. "How are we ever going to get such varied people, who never agree on anything, to agree on one currency?"

They did that.
 
2013-10-21 03:31:12 PM  

Dinjiin: Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.

There is a place in between.

For example, I could see a new economic union of North and Baltic Sea countries forming.  They have economies and cultures that are more in-sync with each other.  That would make centralization of economic policy more feasible.

The Romantic countries would be a little harder to mesh.  France isn't as dysfunctional as Spain or Italy, so they may want to look to the northwest and tie in with Ireland and the UK and instead.  And Ireland might need France to act as a counterbalance against the UK.  Of course, that assumes that the UK doesn't dissolve in the next 25 years due to Welsh and Scottish separatist movements.

The Balkins would be the hardest to mesh due to ethnic hatreds and recent civil war.  If the EU collapsed, I'd see them remain as small independent states.


States that are not in sync culturally or economically should break apart from their union?
 
2013-10-21 04:14:42 PM  

Dinjiin: Lord Dimwit: Those separatist movements are what's going to save the Union. Look at Luxembourg, for example - they need the Union a lot more than the Union needs them. They're too small to be a major player on the world stage, but as part of the Union they can do many things. Wales, Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country - they don't need the UK, Spain, or France. They can be like Luxembourg - small countries, but part of the European Union and so therefore major players on the world stage.

Nod.  An economic bloc allows a country to keep its national identity and culture while being joined at the hip economically, which is the best of both worlds.  I could see the UK and Belgium becoming more and more decentralized to the point that they break apart, yet would remain as economically tied as ever under the trading bloc.

The only catch comes down to the power structure.  If the EU breaks into a number of smaller economic unions, the smaller states may be leery of having one major power being an overly dominating force. I really see France being the country everyone wants to keep the other major powers at bay.  I imagine similar struggles in central-eastern Europe as well.


Everyone in Europe wants their own national identity. The Flemish in Belgium. The Catalonians in Spain. The Scottish in the UK. Etc.

After hundreds of years, they all still hate outsiders(the people who live a few miles down the road).

Eventually, Europe will just be a collection of small villages that despise their neighbors.
 
2013-10-21 04:32:23 PM  

mcreadyblue: After hundreds of years, they all still hate outsiders(the people who live a few miles down the road).


Some neighbors from down the road were truly rat bastards, who would come to visit with a sword in one hand for the men and a d!*k in the other for the women.  To me, it is all in the past, with more modern issues at hand.  But some people have long memory and never forget.  I don't agree with their views, but I do understand why they have them.
 
2013-10-21 05:46:05 PM  
One love, one heart, one global wage...
 
2013-10-21 05:46:35 PM  

mcreadyblue: Dinjiin: Lord Dimwit: Those separatist movements are what's going to save the Union. Look at Luxembourg, for example - they need the Union a lot more than the Union needs them. They're too small to be a major player on the world stage, but as part of the Union they can do many things. Wales, Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country - they don't need the UK, Spain, or France. They can be like Luxembourg - small countries, but part of the European Union and so therefore major players on the world stage.

Nod.  An economic bloc allows a country to keep its national identity and culture while being joined at the hip economically, which is the best of both worlds.  I could see the UK and Belgium becoming more and more decentralized to the point that they break apart, yet would remain as economically tied as ever under the trading bloc.

The only catch comes down to the power structure.  If the EU breaks into a number of smaller economic unions, the smaller states may be leery of having one major power being an overly dominating force. I really see France being the country everyone wants to keep the other major powers at bay.  I imagine similar struggles in central-eastern Europe as well.

Everyone in Europe wants their own national identity. The Flemish in Belgium. The Catalonians in Spain. The Scottish in the UK. Etc.

After hundreds of years, they all still hate outsiders(the people who live a few miles down the road).

Eventually, Europe will just be a collection of small villages that despise their neighbors.


Eventually?

As opposed to the last thousand years or so?
 
2013-10-21 05:48:54 PM  

mcreadyblue: Dinjiin: Lord Dimwit: Those separatist movements are what's going to save the Union. Look at Luxembourg, for example - they need the Union a lot more than the Union needs them. They're too small to be a major player on the world stage, but as part of the Union they can do many things. Wales, Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country - they don't need the UK, Spain, or France. They can be like Luxembourg - small countries, but part of the European Union and so therefore major players on the world stage.

Nod.  An economic bloc allows a country to keep its national identity and culture while being joined at the hip economically, which is the best of both worlds.  I could see the UK and Belgium becoming more and more decentralized to the point that they break apart, yet would remain as economically tied as ever under the trading bloc.

The only catch comes down to the power structure.  If the EU breaks into a number of smaller economic unions, the smaller states may be leery of having one major power being an overly dominating force. I really see France being the country everyone wants to keep the other major powers at bay.  I imagine similar struggles in central-eastern Europe as well.

Everyone in Europe wants their own national identity. The Flemish in Belgium. The Catalonians in Spain. The Scottish in the UK. Etc.

After hundreds of years, they all still hate outsiders(the people who live a few miles down the road).

Eventually, Europe will just be a collection of small villages that despise their neighbors.


So....how it all started, then?
 
2013-10-21 06:12:51 PM  

Lord Dimwit: Europe without the Union cannot survive as a great power. They must all hang together or they will surely hang separately.


I suppose the combined weight would get it over quicker.
 
2013-10-21 06:23:45 PM  
I beleive 1980's british TV answered the EU question for us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVrN-gkzVYI
 
2013-10-21 07:46:28 PM  

jjorsett: It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.


They were called derpy right wingers at the time
 
2013-10-21 08:57:29 PM  
The only thing people is asking when the UK finally pisses out of the EU, and why Fark keeps printing their trolling newspaper articles.
 
2013-10-21 08:59:39 PM  

spawn73: The only thing people is asking when the UK finally pisses out of the EU, and why Fark keeps printing their trolling newspaper articles.


No idea about the first part, but we need a break from the Daily Mail every now and then.
 
2013-10-21 09:05:53 PM  

Nemo's Brother: jjorsett: It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.

They were called derpy right wingers at the time


A broken clock is right twice a day.
 
2013-10-21 09:19:06 PM  
The mistake was not implementing a unifying currency under a central state as soon as the last war ended. That was a major part of creating the dollar we know so well today after the civil war. Went from hundreds of local bank scrips to one national currency, and all state debts and obligations were then in the new currency while facing a period of huge growth.

I know, this is all hindsight, but if europe had a situation where they were rebuilding their economy while cognisant of the realistic economic of a currency under central issuance we wouldn't have seen things like the Greek blow-up.
 
2013-10-21 09:52:14 PM  
The US and EU have the same problems having such dramatically different economies under one currency. Italy and Greece, being less efficient than Germany, used to be able to inflate their currencies relative to Germany to maintain competitiveness. Now neither Italy, Greece nor Mississippi or West Virginia for example can do that -- they're forced to use the same currency whether you're in a high-cost, high-efficiency state or a low-cost, low-efficiency state.

America balances this out with permanent cash payments to disadvantaged areas, either directly (federal projects, military bases, etc) or indirectly (welfare, SNAP and things that aren't targeting those places directly, but they do have greater than average need, so more money flows there)
 
2013-10-22 06:51:26 AM  

jjorsett: It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.


Wait,we talking about iraq?
 
2013-10-22 06:54:16 AM  

enik: Maybe King Hopeandchange can provide some advice to the EU about transparency and uniting its citizens.


Teabaggers. I wish Obama would publicly come out in favor of breathing.
 
2013-10-22 08:21:29 AM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: Nemo's Brother: jjorsett: It's interesting how nobody ever sees these problems coming, other than the squintillion people who predicted them.

They were called derpy right wingers at the time

A broken clock is right twice a day.


If it's a teatard clock, the moment it is right it immediately moves to the complete opposite angle.
 
2013-10-22 11:35:07 AM  

brantgoose: The way I see it, the Euro is a great thing. It's not the Euro that is the problem. It is mismatched central banking and monetary policy that is the problem, plus premature growth and over-expansion.

They should not have allowed countries like Greece into the Community and the Eurozone until they were ready, which might have meant never given the entrenched culture of tax evasion, fraud, cronyism, etc.

They should not have pushed expansion.

A currency requires a uniform monetary policy, with government policy aligned to compliment and supplement it. Some European countries are deeply conservative, such as Germany. This is good for them. Other countries are not, which might be good in their circumstances. But if you hitch a race horse to a hippopotamus, you have a mismatched team that will pull against its members rather than pulling together.

The Euro should survive, but that may mean throwing some countries out of the Eurozone until their policies and their monetary needs are aligned sufficiently with Greater Europe.

The US dollar works not because the US is homogenous but because it's policy is united and its economy is one--a lot of national companies ensures this because they are the same everywhere with regional flavours perhaps, but common products, services, and management goals.

It's a tough market to crack for foreign retailers and other companies. But it works.

The French and Germans are somewhat mismatched but the things that unite them are stronger than the things that divide them, so they can adapt to each other.

The Eurozone and the European Community have fallen victim to the same sort of errors that afflict a large company when it tries to expand into new markets, or to grow too fast, or tries to expand geographically too vast. There is internal contradiction and conflict due to mismatches between timing, objectives, and different cultures.

Austro-Hungary fell apart. The German Confederation did not despite a great diversity of mutually anta ...


I beg to differ. The German Confederation's demise was a direct and immediate result of that nasty little scrap between Prussia and Austria in 1866. If "fell apart" doesn't describe that, what does?
 
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