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(Salon)   Atheists: "Malala is an atheist hero." Malala: "um, I'm Muslim." Atheists: "A HERO"   (salon.com) divider line 257
    More: Dumbass, Malala, Ivy Leagues, Islam and secularism  
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9910 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Oct 2013 at 2:32 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-20 10:31:46 PM
ONCE AND FOR ALL!!
 
2013-10-20 10:43:22 PM
Subby fails at reading comprehension.
 
2013-10-20 10:54:43 PM

Lorelle: Subby fails at reading comprehension.


More to the point
 
2013-10-20 11:10:54 PM
I'm confused - when did Harris say she's an atheist? All he said was she's a hero for standing up for women's rights, as far as I can see. This is objectionable?
 
2013-10-20 11:19:39 PM
Wow. The headline has nothing whatsoever to do with the article. Here, subby, 20 minutes a day and you can maybe stop looking so moronic all the time:

img811.imageshack.us
 
2013-10-20 11:20:26 PM

poonesfarm: Wow. The headline has nothing whatsoever to do with the article. Here, subby, 20 minutes a day and you can maybe stop looking so moronic all the time:

[img811.imageshack.us image 197x255]


To be fair, the article itself is a hitjob without much more quality than the headline. It's crap in a different way.
 
2013-10-20 11:42:14 PM

DamnYankees: poonesfarm: Wow. The headline has nothing whatsoever to do with the article. Here, subby, 20 minutes a day and you can maybe stop looking so moronic all the time:

[img811.imageshack.us image 197x255]

To be fair, the article itself is a hitjob without much more quality than the headline. It's crap in a different way.


Heh, fair enough.
 
2013-10-20 11:46:10 PM
♫ Well, they call it trolly Monday
But Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday are just as bad ♫
 
2013-10-21 12:14:06 AM
There are a ton of folks who "fight" Fundamentalist Islam every year.

They're called Muslims.

Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.

Harris is a douche. He's a douche who likes headlines, who likes feeling superior, and with a tissue thin understanding of history and theology, and he illustrates the bigotry that he so desperately wants to project elsewhere. Malala is a girl, who had some horrible sh*t happen to her, and stayed strong, and not just mentally strong, but strong in her faith. She does illustrate that not all Muslims are the cartoon cutouts, and our Beamish Boy just missed the potential lesson, and went on instead to project his own desires and hopes and dreams for fame and accolades upon her.

It might be noted, that Iran was one of the most progressive Middle Eastern nation, before BP decided that nationalizing their oilfields was a shooting offense. The meddling in Iran, the dismantling of their democracy, and the installation and support of the Shah did more to increase tensions, and fire up Fundamentalists than pretty much anything. Couple it with the difficulties in Israel, unrest in Egypt, increasing issues of wealth disparity in Saudi Arabia, and the invasion of Afghanistan and subsequent abandonment of the Afghan people afterward, and a sh*t ton of cash that flowed from deals with the IRA and others for training, weapons, and support, and you get the Middle East today. The problems with Fundamentalists is NOT just their faith, but coupling that faith and its twisted version of Islam with political power and goals. The West is JUST as responsible for the mess in the Middle East, as the crazy ass Imams who've been whipping these folks up. And that relationship is something that you'd think a philosopher might gig onto. Not our boy. The many shades of Islam are lost to this idiot, because he doesn't really care, he just wants page inches, and this is a nice way to do it, and the huge holes in his thinking, and understanding of a subject that he likes to drone on about being damned, because so long as he's loud enough, and far enough away, he can get that attention he feels he deserves.

There are plenty of Muslims who engage and do their level best to deal with the asshat Fundamentalists, and hundreds are killed all the time. For doing what they feel is right. For extending a hand, for living their beliefs. If we REALLY want to stop Fundamentalists, then we need to support moderates, to help them free themselves from the grip of armed Fundamentalists, and reinforce regimes that don't let these folks get a toe hold. Iraq, for all its issues, was still fairly free of that particular stain--up until we opened the nation up, and gave them a reason to turn to these folks for assistance, because it's not just about the faith, but about the politics and relationship between the two we have to address. And the best way to do that, is to actually understand the damn faith, and the reasons for these conflicts--not just bray and denounce a faith that you don't understand in the least...
 
2013-10-21 12:18:11 AM

hubiestubert: Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.


I usually like you, but this is PROFOUDNLY unfair to Harris. The idea that the problem the WBC represents in Christianity is of the same scale as the one that fundamentalist Islam is in the world is Islam is frankly absurd. There are many countries in this world which treat women absolutely horribly in the name of Islam, among myriad other savageries. The WBC is literally, like, 12 people.

The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.
 
2013-10-21 12:25:02 AM
She's definitely a hero.
 
2013-10-21 12:41:03 AM

DamnYankees: hubiestubert: Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.

I usually like you, but this is PROFOUDNLY unfair to Harris. The idea that the problem the WBC represents in Christianity is of the same scale as the one that fundamentalist Islam is in the world is Islam is frankly absurd. There are many countries in this world which treat women absolutely horribly in the name of Islam, among myriad other savageries. The WBC is literally, like, 12 people.

The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.


Then you missed the point. The problem is conflating the faith, with the politics.

Mind you, the rise of Fundamentalist Islam has coincided with a number of political movements. I, again, point to Iran. Iran's fall to Fundamentalists was NOT just that the Fundamentalists provided a vision of the future that was appealing: they were involved in a deeply political fight to free the nation from not just a dictator, but what they saw as Western interference. It has been a reactionary movement, and it has less to do with the faith itself, than using the faith as an excuse, and to keep pressure on folks as an instrument of control.

Rather than look at "Islam" as a whole, you have to look at nations. You have to look at specific cases. Egypt. Jordan. Yemen. Oman. Qatar. Iraq. Iran. Syria. And likewise look at the politics behind these methods of control. You have to look at the various factions and sects, and likewise look at the politics within. The faith itself isn't the problem, but the people who are using their faith as a bludgeon. And how they got that way, and why they feel they need to have that kind of control.

What I dislike is that our Beamish Boy hates "Islamic apologists" who understand that the faith is being used as an excuse. And rather than look at the deeper issues, he instead focuses on the finger, instead of the food like a damn cat...
 
2013-10-21 12:44:28 AM

DamnYankees: hubiestubert: Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.

I usually like you, but this is PROFOUDNLY unfair to Harris. The idea that the problem the WBC represents in Christianity is of the same scale as the one that fundamentalist Islam is in the world is Islam is frankly absurd. There are many countries in this world which treat women absolutely horribly in the name of Islam, among myriad other savageries. The WBC is literally, like, 12 people.

The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.


THIS.

I am sick to death of people trying to mitigate the evil that is done by religion every day by pointing to even greater evil done by extremists and saying, "We're not like that!"
 
2013-10-21 12:45:18 AM

hubiestubert: Then you missed the point. The problem is conflating the faith, with the politics.


I completely reject this entire line of argument is little more than a wax paper covering. If you want to somehow carve out the particularly 'nasty' parts of religious belief as somehow not religious in nature, then you're obligated to do so with the good stuff as well. Either what we believe matters, or it doesn't.

hubiestubert: The faith itself isn't the problem


So is faith never a problem, or is it just not a problem when it prompts people to do horrible things? I'm confused by your claims. Presumably, people believe certain things, and those beliefs cause them to do certain actions; I presume these claims are not very controversial. Are you making the claim that people who believe in fundamentalist religious doctrines are somehow not bound by this causation?
 
2013-10-21 12:49:57 AM

hubiestubert: There are a ton of folks who "fight" Fundamentalist Islam every year.

They're called Muslims.

Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.

Harris is a douche. He's a douche who likes headlines, who likes feeling superior, and with a tissue thin understanding of history and theology, and he illustrates the bigotry that he so desperately wants to project elsewhere. Malala is a girl, who had some horrible sh*t happen to her, and stayed strong, and not just mentally strong, but strong in her faith. She does illustrate that not all Muslims are the cartoon cutouts, and our Beamish Boy just missed the potential lesson, and went on instead to project his own desires and hopes and dreams for fame and accolades upon her.

It might be noted, that Iran was one of the most progressive Middle Eastern nation, before BP decided that nationalizing their oilfields was a shooting offense. The meddling in Iran, the dismantling of their democracy, and the installation and support of the Shah did more to increase tensions, and fire up Fundamen ...


Wow, if only you'd extend the same tolerance to US Christians, that vast majority of whom aren't evangelical nutjobs.
 
2013-10-21 12:56:30 AM

DamnYankees: hubiestubert: Then you missed the point. The problem is conflating the faith, with the politics.

I completely reject this entire line of argument is little more than a wax paper covering. If you want to somehow carve out the particularly 'nasty' parts of religious belief as somehow not religious in nature, then you're obligated to do so with the good stuff as well. Either what we believe matters, or it doesn't.

hubiestubert: The faith itself isn't the problem

So is faith never a problem, or is it just not a problem when it prompts people to do horrible things? I'm confused by your claims. Presumably, people believe certain things, and those beliefs cause them to do certain actions; I presume these claims are not very controversial. Are you making the claim that people who believe in fundamentalist religious doctrines are somehow not bound by this causation?


No, I'm saying that you hold folks responsible for their actions.

Do you blame Catholicism for The Troubles? Protestants? Was Christianity as a whole to blame for that mess? Or was there something beyond faiths clashing?

A big problem with the issues facing the Middle East is that many in the West have little understanding of the politics that is actually driving a lot of these conflicts. Are unaware of the internal issues. It's easier to blame them on the faith. And that reductionism does no one any favors.
 
2013-10-21 12:59:17 AM

hubiestubert: No, I'm saying that you hold folks responsible for their actions.


Ok, agreed so far.

hubiestubert: Do you blame Catholicism for The Troubles? Protestants? Was Christianity as a whole to blame for that mess?


Yes, both. Not ENTIRELY, but a big piece of it.

You conveniently elide the entire question I asked you though. People believe certain things, and those beliefs cause them to do certain actions; I presume these claims are not very controversial. Are you making the claim that people who believe in fundamentalist religious doctrines are somehow not bound by this causation?
 
2013-10-21 01:05:57 AM
Wow, that guy is an asshole.
 
2013-10-21 01:10:09 AM

DamnYankees: hubiestubert: Fundamentalists kill and attack anyone who they feel challenges their beliefs, and most often, the folks who counter their beliefs are OTHER Muslims. Imams have fatwa issued against them, takfir is declared by folks who aren't clergy to punish those that they feel are Infidel for wanting to live their lives without the cloud of increasingly xenophobic zeal against anyone who isn't of the "right" sect of Islam.

The fear of Islam comes from a lack of understanding of the faith, and conflating the views and beliefs of some of the most vocal and violent, with all of Islam. It's sort of like conflating the works of the Westboro Baptists with Quakers. Or looking at abortion clinic bombings and saying that all Episcopalians are responsible, as well as Unitarians and Methodists as well. THIS lack of understanding, and willful ignorance is part of why the West is not particularly greeted with a great deal of enthusiasm--well, that, and years of political, military, and economic meddling from afar.

I usually like you, but this is PROFOUDNLY unfair to Harris. The idea that the problem the WBC represents in Christianity is of the same scale as the one that fundamentalist Islam is in the world is Islam is frankly absurd. There are many countries in this world which treat women absolutely horribly in the name of Islam, among myriad other savageries. The WBC is literally, like, 12 people.

The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.

Malala is the best thing to come out of the Muslim world in a thousand years. She is an extraordinarily brave and eloquent girl who is doing what millions of Muslim men and women are too terrified to do-stand up to the misogyny of traditional Islam


That statement by Harris is just as hyperbolic as what hubie was saying, if not more.
When I look at contemporary Christianist perspectives on birth control, abortion, and civil rights in the U.S., I see something that goes way beyond the WBC. And I also come from a Muslim country with which I can compare such things with.
 
2013-10-21 01:15:49 AM

DamnYankees: hubiestubert: No, I'm saying that you hold folks responsible for their actions.

Ok, agreed so far.

hubiestubert: Do you blame Catholicism for The Troubles? Protestants? Was Christianity as a whole to blame for that mess?

Yes, both. Not ENTIRELY, but a big piece of it.

You conveniently elide the entire question I asked you though. People believe certain things, and those beliefs cause them to do certain actions; I presume these claims are not very controversial. Are you making the claim that people who believe in fundamentalist religious doctrines are somehow not bound by this causation?


I'm saying that folks are using the faith as an excuse, not a reason.

I take the issue of takfir as a "for instance." Takfir is the declaration of Infidel against a Muslim. Normally, it has to be backed up in court, and yet, it is a common practice by many Fundamentalists to be levied against those who disagree with them. It is a practice that has led to a lot of folks being killed or run out on a rail, because they are an impediment. The practice without declaration of fatwa by the clergy is NOT Orthodox in the least, and yet, it often stands, because the political fallout, and many clergy who have opposed this practice have had takfir issued against them as well. Clergy who've been declared apostate and Infidel because they've dared raise a hand to say, "Hey, that ain't right, and it's against the Word of the Prophet."

The beliefs are an excuse. These are folks who are using their faith as a shield from recrimination, and for that, they are asshats. Asshats who are often denounced, and then go out and kill and harass those who dare cite the Koran to illustrate exactly how wrong their interpretations are.

The fights are NOT about the faith, but folks who are looking to use the faith as an excuse to address grudges, ethnic rivalries, and political opponents. It is just a way to shield themselves from too close a scrutiny. The issue are asshats, not the faith. That they use the faith in such a way IS an issue. With them. With the individuals. With the organizations that would like to use faith to mask their motives and intents. Be they Muslim. Be they Christian. Be they Jews. Be they Buddhists. Be they Sikhs. Be they pagans.

We need to stop looking at the excuses, and start looking at the reasons. The reasons aren't about the faith, but tied to very real politics and conflicts that underlie all the rhetoric and chest pounding.
 
2013-10-21 01:30:16 AM
Lsherm:  Wow, if only you'd extend the same tolerance to US Christians, that vast majority of whom aren't evangelical nutjobs.

Oddly enough, I usually do. I came back to Buddhism after many years, but my Grandmother was a Methodist. My Dad married a Baptist. One of my best friends is a former Jesuit. Most Christians I know are decent folks. Most Muslims I know are decent folks.

The faith isn't the issue, but what folks DO with that faith. You hold folks accountable for their actions.
 
2013-10-21 01:43:35 AM

DamnYankees: The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.


"Islam" doesn't treat anything. Islam isn't a singular "thing." Muslims, about half of whom are women, have various cultural traditions, that like most others worldwide, tend to favor men over women. There are well-known and studied feminist movements among Muslims are there are among Jews and Christians and Hindus, even though men tend to hold more political power. Sexism in any tradition isn't an excuse for Orientalist holier than thou asshattery. There's plenty of sexism and rape culture among secular liberals too, not to mention the general crappy excuse for cultural criticism among the Maher's,  Harris's and the Dawkins of the world who think their own understanding of science and logic gives them some privileged place from which to criticize others. Perhaps a good place to start would be listening to what Muslim women actually say about being caught between others agendas instead of talking "about" them as if they have no agency of their own.
 
2013-10-21 01:53:12 AM

hubiestubert: I take the issue of takfir as a "for instance."


The charge of "apostasy" works in a very similar way. Its usually leveled on top of other "crimes" against political critics of the State. The State often places itself in a position to influence what is perceived as "legit" Islam in its borders, and often that means asserting the right to speak on behalf of the entire tradition within its borders, even though the rest of world probably doesn't agree. So if you criticize the government its response is to charge you with betrayal of the State's righteous authority. Its technically very easy to get out of an apostasy charge--all you have to do is proclaim the Shahada in court publicly stating you're a Muslim, but the charge itself taints the person as illegitimate in the eyes of the public culture. Even in secular Islamic countries like Turkey you find a secular version of this practice---criticize the government and they'll charge you with "INSULTING TURKISHNESS." Essentially its the same thing: criticize the government and you are accused of undermining the culture itself.
 
2013-10-21 02:02:42 AM

hubiestubert: Lsherm:  Wow, if only you'd extend the same tolerance to US Christians, that vast majority of whom aren't evangelical nutjobs.

Oddly enough, I usually do. I came back to Buddhism after many years, but my Grandmother was a Methodist. My Dad married a Baptist. One of my best friends is a former Jesuit. Most Christians I know are decent folks. Most Muslims I know are decent folks.

The faith isn't the issue, but what folks DO with that faith. You hold folks accountable for their actions.


This, and this to most of you have said.

The Qu'ran commands that you educate women because it is women who teach children. The Taliban do not understand this because they are illiterate and cannot read what the Qu'ran says, so they make stuff up in order to control others. To completely discount a beautiful religion with a rich academic tradition (far far stronger than the Christian one!) because of some illiterate idiots is just as pants on head retarded as following the religion completely without question.

Some of the strongest jihads aren't the ones you see on TV, but the daily ones encountered by Muslims in their everyday life. I really wish people would take the time to educate themselves about cultures and religions before claiming a seat of moral superiority. Islam has a lot to teach Westerners!
 
2013-10-21 02:08:01 AM

Somacandra: hubiestubert: I take the issue of takfir as a "for instance."

The charge of "apostasy" works in a very similar way. Its usually leveled on top of other "crimes" against political critics of the State. The State often places itself in a position to influence what is perceived as "legit" Islam in its borders, and often that means asserting the right to speak on behalf of the entire tradition within its borders, even though the rest of world probably doesn't agree. So if you criticize the government its response is to charge you with betrayal of the State's righteous authority. Its technically very easy to get out of an apostasy charge--all you have to do is proclaim the Shahada in court publicly stating you're a Muslim, but the charge itself taints the person as illegitimate in the eyes of the public culture. Even in secular Islamic countries like Turkey you find a secular version of this practice---criticize the government and they'll charge you with "INSULTING TURKISHNESS." Essentially its the same thing: criticize the government and you are accused of undermining the culture itself.


And there lies the rub. Folks using faith as a shield for very much political action. The problem comes down to methods of control, and seeking to justify them, and the methods are often horrible. Let's not get that screwed up. But it's not just a problem with Islam, or even the People of the Book. I just despise when folks like Harris seek to use hot buttons to push themselves into the spotlight, to pimp their own opportunist work, especially, when it's dumbed down, ignorant of the real issues, and instead only muddies waters.
 
2013-10-21 02:09:22 AM

hubiestubert: The faith isn't the issue, but what folks DO with that faith. You hold folks accountable for their actions.


Well, in all reality, it's not like a moderate Muslim in the US has any control over an extremist in Afghanistan.  Hell, moderate Christians in the US don't have any control over fundamentalists even if they live next door.  The only thing people can do is speak out, but usually by definition and action it's the extremists who garner the most attention.  If the moderates garnered the most attention, then they'd be considered extremists.

Very few people at work know I'm a practicing Catholic because I'm extremely low key about it.  Since it's an IT department, we have a fair number of Muslims from Pakistan and India, and two were surprised when they found out I was Catholic because, and I quote, "you have a big Jewish nose."  THAT I didn't know how to respond to, particularly since we have also have a good number of Jews in the department.  I told them the US was pretty good about getting people from all backgrounds to work together, so they needed to stop making judgements about people, especially based on stereotypical appearances.  I don't think it did a damn bit of good, but at least I threw it out there.

And I'm guilty of the same thing.  A woman I've worked with for five years fasts during Ramadan every year, so I assumed she was Muslim.  She's married to a Muslim, but she's Hindu.  I got called out ordering food for a group lunch because I mentioned we should avoid pork products and just get chicken on pizza and salads and she told me she didn't eat meat at all because she's Hindu.  So lesson learned.
 
2013-10-21 02:31:35 AM

Lsherm: hubiestubert: The faith isn't the issue, but what folks DO with that faith. You hold folks accountable for their actions.

Well, in all reality, it's not like a moderate Muslim in the US has any control over an extremist in Afghanistan.  Hell, moderate Christians in the US don't have any control over fundamentalists even if they live next door.  The only thing people can do is speak out, but usually by definition and action it's the extremists who garner the most attention.  If the moderates garnered the most attention, then they'd be considered extremists.


What we can do is stop giving ink and press time to idiots who use "BOOGA BOOGA MUSLIMS!" as their schtick. And maybe stop electing folks use the same schtick as well. And that's something that folks of all the various faiths and even those who don't have faith at all can do. Stop electing folks who use scare tactics about people that they don't understand, and whose history that they're fair ignorant about.

You know why McCain lost my vote in 2008? Because of Ossetia. Because he exhibited a deep seated ignorance of the events, and instead fell back to, "Russians BAD!" and that tissue thin understanding of the situation in Georgia pretty much sealed the deal. We need leaders who can look at the past, and deal with issues in a constructive way. The laziness that some folks lean on tropes as political position is appalling. It does us no favors. We need to look less at these hot buttons, and easy outs, and actually look at the real issues.
 
2013-10-21 02:35:49 AM
No, no, athiest. Singular. One asshole. Isn't it religious folks who hate being lumped in with the assholes amongst them? Then maybe do unto others.
 
2013-10-21 02:38:36 AM
Heroes can be stupid, and believe silly non-sense, but she's still a hero.
 
2013-10-21 02:42:40 AM
Got him a green didn't it???
 
2013-10-21 02:44:02 AM

Peki: This, and this to most of you have said.

The Qu'ran commands that you educate women because it is women who teach children. The Taliban do not understand this because they are illiterate and cannot read what the Qu'ran says, so they make stuff up in order to control others. To completely discount a beautiful religion with a rich academic tradition (far far stronger than the Christian one!) because of some illiterate idiots is just as pants on head retarded as following the religion completely without question.

Some of the strongest jihads aren't the ones you see on TV, but the daily ones encountered by Muslims in their everyday life. I really wish people would take the time to educate themselves about cultures and religions before claiming a seat of moral superiority. Islam has a lot to teach Westerners!


Christian bashing and self-hate in one post? Congratulations. I bet the West has more to teach Islam than the opposite.
 
2013-10-21 02:44:56 AM
Seems subby has an ax to grind with atheists.

Maybe the subby is like those conservatives who lay the blame for everything they dislike on "libs"... except for the subby it's "atheists".

Please note that conservative perceptions of "liberals" and subby's perception of "atheists" bears pretty much no resemblance at all to actual liberals or atheists respectively.
 
2013-10-21 02:46:03 AM

hubiestubert: The fights are NOT about the faith, but folks who are looking to use the faith as an excuse to address grudges, ethnic rivalries, and political opponents. It is just a way to shield themselves from too close a scrutiny. The issue are asshats, not the faith. That they use the faith in such a way IS an issue. With them. With the individuals. With the organizations that would like to use faith to mask their motives and intents. Be they Muslim. Be they Christian. Be they Jews. Be they Buddhists. Be they Sikhs. Be they pagans.


I just popped in to point out that "faith" has nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhism. We study a philosophy, a nihilist school of thought, that was founded specifically in response to a theocratic country full of people who lived their lives in blind faith, eating what they were told, dressing as they were told, and believing that after they died they would get some magic reward. Leave us out of the religion clusterf*ck, please.
 
2013-10-21 02:47:32 AM

hubiestubert: Do you blame Catholicism for The Troubles? Protestants? Was Christianity as a whole to blame for that mess? Or was there something beyond faiths clashing?

A big problem with the issues facing the Middle East is that many in the West have little understanding of the politics that is actually driving a lot of these conflicts. Are unaware of the internal issues. It's easier to blame them on the faith. And that reductionism does no one any favors.


Any way you paint it, religion is a tool. And it's being used by these guys to do whatever they want. Do you advocate gun control? If yes, then you should do the same to religion. Secular governments or bust. Religion can't dictate public policies.
 
2013-10-21 02:49:25 AM
Nothing like the eloquent excoriation of an opportunist to start off a new week!


But enough about what subby's endured in the thread thus far....
 
2013-10-21 02:52:25 AM

coco ebert: Wow, that guy is an asshole.


"...a man who believes that the Iraq War was fought for a great "humanitarian purpose,"?

That guy's an asshole?

I quite agree.

He does indeed try to co-opt Malala's story and conflate it with his own issues without really understanding it.

Unless you were talking about subby's massive headline/reading comprehension fail there.

In which case I'd also have to agree.
 
2013-10-21 02:53:46 AM

coco ebert: Wow, that guy is an asshole.


Agreed.  That Harris guy seems like he might be an asshole too, but I'd have to see a little more of his writings in context to decide (which I won't, since he's some shmuck I've never heard of and won't ever think about again, but if I did want to decide if he's an asshole that's what I'd have to do).
 
2013-10-21 03:04:57 AM
Well, yeah. Most atheists are just anti-Christian. They're generally fine with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc...
 
2013-10-21 03:08:30 AM

HotWingAgenda: I just popped in to point out that "faith" has nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhism. We study a philosophy, a nihilist school of thought, that was founded specifically in response to a theocratic country full of people who lived their lives in blind faith, eating what they were told, dressing as they were told, and believing that after they died they would get some magic reward. Leave us out of the religion clusterf*ck, please.

Considering what is done by Buddhists worldwide, in the name of their faith, and considering that I AM a Buddhist as well, I think that we can take our lumps as well. Especially since Buddhism is older than Christianity, and has a lot of flavors and sects, it is just as variegated a faith tradition as any. Buddhists aren't above asshattery, especially when things get bound up in politics as well.

rocky_howard: Any way you paint it, religion is a tool. And it's being used by these guys to do whatever they want. Do you advocate gun control? If yes, then you should do the same to religion. Secular governments or bust. Religion can't dictate public policies.


Actually, if you knew anything about me, you'd understand that the gun control hot button is useless. Gun control is a distraction from talking about far more important issues. But that is itself a distraction from the actual issue here as well.

Faith is a tool. And any tool can be used as a weapon if you hold it right. I would rather see secular states, but that is up to their own people. Not up to me to decide. But that likewise has little to do with the issue at hand. The issue is conflation with faith and internal politics as being intrinsic to one another.

If folks are upset at Fundamentalist Muslims, then we need to think seriously about supporting moderate elements in their nations. The rise of the Taliban can be linked not just to the rise of Fundamentalist in the Middle East alone, but likewise the abandonment of their people AFTER the Afghan people ousted the Soviets. We left folks to twist in the breeze, and realize that they'd been used fairly badly, and we've had the nerve to be surprised that they hold us a bit accountable? We have watched these groups rise, and become more vocal, more alarmist, and far more militant, but have done little to actually address the issues that have caused this to occur. In part, meddling in the affairs of states in the Middle East for generations has left a bit of a mark, and it has colored a lot of folks' thinking. Using their faith to spread a message, with easy to understand metaphor, culturally significant metaphor at that, that is way to spread political message, and use the language of faith to excuse actions that would otherwise conflict with said faith, that is fairly common around the world, and not just a Muslim thing. And it's the reductionism on these issues that I find offensive, because it short circuits thinking, and instead creates a vacuum where idiocy can then propagate.
 
2013-10-21 03:08:51 AM
I have trouble taking anyone named Malala seriously.....
 
2013-10-21 03:12:01 AM
i.imgur.com
In the not too distant future (Malala)...
 
2013-10-21 03:14:56 AM

Somacandra: DamnYankees: The idea that there's nothing wrong with Islam's treatment of women is, in my liberal secular opinion, rather insane.

"Islam" doesn't treat anything. Islam isn't a singular "thing." Muslims, about half of whom are women, have various cultural traditions, that like most others worldwide, tend to favor men over women. There are well-known and studied feminist movements among Muslims are there are among Jews and Christians and Hindus, even though men tend to hold more political power. Sexism in any tradition isn't an excuse for Orientalist holier than thou asshattery. There's plenty of sexism and rape culture among secular liberals too, not to mention the general crappy excuse for cultural criticism among the Maher's,  Harris's and the Dawkins of the world who think their own understanding of science and logic gives them some privileged place from which to criticize others. Perhaps a good place to start would be listening to what Muslim women actually say about being caught between others agendas instead of talking "about" them as if they have no agency of their own.


i.imgur.com

/didn't feel like the ohsnap.jpg would cut it
 
2013-10-21 03:15:24 AM

SpdrJay: I have trouble taking anyone named Malala seriously.....


C'mon.,. Don't be such an ass to Malala. Her name is alright and I bet yours sounds funny to her too, but I feel she's too much of a decent person to give you shiat about it. Plus, she didn't choose her name anyway so yeah it's even more asshatty from your part.
 
2013-10-21 03:18:47 AM
Wow, there are a ton of intolerant atheists on this thread. You have had 100 years of political rule and your beliefs have caused over 200 million deaths of your own people(not including war). It won't take long for your intolerance to catch up to theist rule.

Hate is hate, Intolerance is intolerance, no one belief is above 1 person using it to try to gain power over others.  Grow the fark up... or as Phil Plait said  "DON'T BE A DICK".

I am agnostic, your crap makes you complete pieces of shiat!!!
 
2013-10-21 03:19:25 AM
A Muslim can be a hero to some atheists, without being an atheist. Maybe this position is hard to understand for religious folks, I dunno?
 
2013-10-21 03:21:03 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Well, yeah. Most atheists are just anti-Christian. They're generally fine with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc...


We are?  Thank you for manchristiansplaining that to us.
 
2013-10-21 03:23:34 AM

hubiestubert: HotWingAgenda: I just popped in to point out that "faith" has nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhism. We study a philosophy, a nihilist school of thought, that was founded specifically in response to a theocratic country full of people who lived their lives in blind faith, eating what they were told, dressing as they were told, and believing that after they died they would get some magic reward. Leave us out of the religion clusterf*ck, please.

Considering what is done by Buddhists worldwide, in the name of their faith, and considering that I AM a Buddhist as well, I think that we can take our lumps as well. Especially since Buddhism is older than Christianity, and has a lot of flavors and sects, it is just as variegated a faith tradition as any. Buddhists aren't above asshattery, especially when things get bound up in politics as well.

rocky_howard: Any way you paint it, religion is a tool. And it's being used by these guys to do whatever they want. Do you advocate gun control? If yes, then you should do the same to religion. Secular governments or bust. Religion can't dictate public policies.

Actually, if you knew anything about me, you'd understand that the gun control hot button is useless. Gun control is a distraction from talking about far more important issues. But that is itself a distraction from the actual issue here as well.

Faith is a tool. And any tool can be used as a weapon if you hold it right. I would rather see secular states, but that is up to their own people. Not up to me to decide. But that likewise has little to do with the issue at hand. The issue is conflation with faith and internal politics as being intrinsic to one another.

If folks are upset at Fundamentalist Muslims, then we need to think seriously about supporting moderate elements in their nations. The rise of the Taliban can be linked not just to the rise of Fundamentalist in the Middle East alone, but likewise the abandonment of their people AFTER the Afghan people ousted the Soviets. We left folks to twist in the breeze, and realize that they'd been used fairly badly, and we've had the nerve to be surprised that they hold us a bit accountable? We have watched these groups rise, and become more vocal, more alarmist, and far more militant, but have done little to actually address the issues that have caused this to occur. In part, meddling in the affairs of states in the Middle East for generations has left a bit of a mark, and it has colored a lot of folks' thinking. Using their faith to spread a message, with easy to understand metaphor, culturally significant metaphor at that, that is way to spread political message, and use the language of faith to excuse actions that would otherwise conflict with said faith, that is fairly common around the world, and not just a Muslim thing. And it's the reductionism on these issues that I find offensive, because it short circuits thinking, and instead creates a vacuum where idiocy can then propagate.


While I'm sure some people use religion as an excuse as you state, you're being too reductive as well, because there are people who do bad things based on religion without using it as an excuse.

Your statements completely absolve anyone taking religion seriously of committing any terrible acts.

And while I agree that each country should decide what to so, it's rather disingenuous to say that if they choose to base laws on religion it's alright too. So what happens to those who don't practice that religion? You seem to have a thin understanding of the situation since a single country can have two different groups with different religions (and I'm not talking about subsections of the same broad religion, but completely different ones), like in Egypt. Sure, Muslim majority, so what happens with Coptics? They'll get boned just for being a minority group?
 
2013-10-21 03:23:54 AM

poonesfarm: Wow. The headline has nothing whatsoever to do with the article. Here, subby, 20 minutes a day and you can maybe stop looking so moronic all the time:

[img811.imageshack.us image 197x255]


As a book dealer who flipped a copy of that exact book today I'm finding my world strange.

Also, I will not click a Salon link. They crossed the threshold between "acceptable amount of advertising" and "USPS delivery".
 
2013-10-21 03:24:54 AM
Sam does some great discussions on morality. And, while he overstepped a bit here, the author of the article is more guilty of pointed conjecture than Harris. As someone who lived in Belfast, Iraised Catholic, I will state that it is an absolutist, almost sports fanatic attitude that makes religion dangerous. In N. Ireland, everyone has the same EXACT picture of Jesus in their house. The only difference? Protestants have longer hymns and the Vicars can marry. I find it strange that if you practice any physical sport fundamentally, you go to the Hall of Fame. But, ANY religious fundamentalism usually includes oppression, suicide bombers, torture and willful ignorance./not an atheist/they told me Satanic Churches had naked women and metal music, so I left/3 slashies, right? Hail Satan!
 
2013-10-21 03:29:59 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Well, yeah. Most atheists are just anti-Christian. They're generally fine with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc...


That is the most amazingly untrue thing I have read today, and I read the politics tab. Most atheists DESPISE Islam, far more so than christianity. There is an odd tendency to give judaism and especially eastern relgiions a pass though, I guess because they are 'distant' and so not threatening seeming.
 
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