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(The Atlantic)   Modern Poverty: Almost half of Public School students are now low-income ..... students from low-income families tend to end up parents of low-income families   (theatlantic.com) divider line 324
    More: Fail, income families, families tend, late-2000s recession, Texas District, poverty, families  
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3164 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Oct 2013 at 10:32 AM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-18 11:20:11 AM

Headso: 2xcited: Hey waity a minute, did not LBJ and the Democrats say that spending on the Great Society, and declaring "War on Poverty," would eliminate this problem!  Sixteen trillion later I am still reading articles like this and listening to ads about one in eight children are hungry.  Holy Shiat and now we turned over Healthcare to these Bozo's.

I thought 99.6% of poor people own a refrigerator and poor people aren't really poor so they should get some skin in the game and pay more in taxes?


Well, while the fact that 249 out of every 250 people living in poverty have a refridgerators is certainly indicative of how much better off the poor of today have it relative to previous generations, it's somewhat irrelevant to the fact that more people need to pay tax and get some skin in the game.
 
2013-10-18 11:20:13 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: HotIgneous Intruder: 2xcited: All men are CREATED equal.  However the choices we make while exercising our freedom of choice, seperate people.  You choose to have children you cannot support, and then rely upon the government, then your choices, opportunity and freedom become limited by the choices YOU made.  I know many people that came from hellish circumstances that are considered prosperous and sucessfull.  You have the righti to Freedom of Choice, but realize poor freedom of choice has consequences and the goverment can only go so far in susidizing your poor freedom of choice.

Still being poor in America would make you a rich man in most countries.

"As soon es I sets the DVR to Moesha, wes cans goes down to Wal-Mart and use the EBTeeze. Let's me go calls up Freds on the free cell phone Obama gots me and see if he wants to come along."

Ronald Reagan instituted the freedom phones, sparky.

Reagan provided free cell phones? Holy shiat, he was way ahead of his time.




No dummy, the whole deal started with land lines and ended up including cell phones-because no one uses Land Lines.
 
2013-10-18 11:20:33 AM

Fissile: Of all developed countries the US has the lowest rate of social mobility.  The rich stay rich, and the poor stay poor.  The US as meritocracy is a lie.


Funny, I grew up poor as a military brat.  Now I'm not poor.  Funny how getting a career type job can fix that.
 
2013-10-18 11:20:34 AM
One thing my wife and I sort of argue about is what we're going to do for school when our three year old (and later on our 4 month old_ gets a bit older. We happily live a few blocks outside of the unaccredited Kansas City district and our district seems to be about average, but she's leaning towards sending our kids to a private school, even if it means that means a religious school, while I'd really rather have our girls in public school. The notion of middle class families, and, yeah, white families, pulling their kids out of urban public schools and putting them in private, suburban schools, always bothers me, as I think having involved and interested parents who are genuinely concerned about their childs education matters more than just "where" a child winds up.

But on the flip side, all the private schools around here just look "better" by each metric, and as a parent, you want the best for your kids.

I dunno. As a product of private, religious schools up until my sophmore year of highschool, when I made it clear to my parents I absolutely hated every aspect of private school, I'm really, really pushing to keep our kids in the public school system, but it's hard to really fault her for wanting our kids to go to the best available school, even if it means paying out of pocket and trying to figure out how to explain to them whey we don't acutally do any of the religious stuff school says to do.

tl;dr, sucks that public school systems are largely in shambles
 
2013-10-18 11:21:55 AM
The article says immigrants and poor have higher birthrates, this is why you'd then expect the poor population to climb vs the middle class or wealthy population.

The implication is clear.  People without much going on in their lives will have more kids, it's one thing they can do and control.  A flat broke guy can have sex with as many women as possible and get many of them pregnant, and in that way he's 'successful' at something.   He's leaving a legacy just as much as the guy working in a professional career.

That, in my opinion, is the reason the country can't afford to turn its back on parts of its own population.  When the system locks a group of people out of the mainstream and they are left out there to do their own thing, they will.  It may not be what society wants, needs, or expects though.
 
2013-10-18 11:22:26 AM

Tom_Slick: DrewCurtisJr: Tom_Slick: Get rid of NCLB and maybe we can get some decent public schools again.

What? The reason we have NCLB is because the public schools weren't doing well, especially with low income students.

It was a good idea, but it didn't work. Look to Atlanta Public Schools.  Funding is tied up with that test so bad schools only teach the kids to pass the test.  So what we end up with is a bunch of kids who spend 12 years only learning how to take standardized tests.


Part of the problem with schools in Atlanta, and I'd know because I used to live there, is that North Fulton County is where all the money is.  South Fulton County gets shafted, in regards to tax dollars, and thus their schools are always far below those that exist in places like Alpharetta, Sandy Springs, and Dunwoody.  SAT scores are consistently much lower, graduation rates are a hell of a lot lower.....it's not pretty.
 
2013-10-18 11:22:33 AM
uber humper: (1) If you don't have skills, a communist society won't want you either. (2) The US is still one of the easiest countries to start a business and work for yourself.

(3) If all you do is drink vodka and listen to music
, (4) instead of learning, you are a drag on wherever you are. What are people like that good for? (5) Knowledge is practically free. You're on the Internet, use it!


(1) Bullshiat.  They will teach you the skills.  Most socialist revolutions happened in areas that didn't have an industrial presence.  They had to teach peasants the skills to operate the machinery.

(2) That must be why most business fail in their first year of operation! So easy even an idiot can do it!

(3) Nothing wrong with either of those activities.

(4) I'm not advocating that we stop learning..... But you can believe that if you wish.

(5) Thank you internet for all the knowledge! Truly the internet is a capitalist success story... ohhh wait it was a government funded project by DARPA.... woops.
 
2013-10-18 11:23:21 AM

Darth_Lukecash: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: HotIgneous Intruder: 2xcited: All men are CREATED equal.  However the choices we make while exercising our freedom of choice, seperate people.  You choose to have children you cannot support, and then rely upon the government, then your choices, opportunity and freedom become limited by the choices YOU made.  I know many people that came from hellish circumstances that are considered prosperous and sucessfull.  You have the righti to Freedom of Choice, but realize poor freedom of choice has consequences and the goverment can only go so far in susidizing your poor freedom of choice.

Still being poor in America would make you a rich man in most countries.

"As soon es I sets the DVR to Moesha, wes cans goes down to Wal-Mart and use the EBTeeze. Let's me go calls up Freds on the free cell phone Obama gots me and see if he wants to come along."

Ronald Reagan instituted the freedom phones, sparky.

Reagan provided free cell phones? Holy shiat, he was way ahead of his time.



No dummy, the whole deal started with land lines and ended up including cell phones-because no one uses Land Lines.


I know plenty of people who use land lines. Of course, they pay for them.
 
2013-10-18 11:23:22 AM

The Muthaship: If only it was possible to not have kids you can't provide for.


This is the exact reason we stopped at two: we can educate them, entertain them, spoil them a little, spoil ourselves a lot, pay for college without debt, and our only debt is a mortgage. People are ignorant though, most don't even consider the future til it is too late....

And I don't believe poor parents make poor kids. My parents grew up dirt poor, hated it, and worked their asses off to not be poor anymore--and they are well-off now. My husband grew up poor too--and he worked his ass off to get out of there, and we are definitely doing well. People who are stuck in the cycle are too lazy or too ignorant to change the pattern, and both of those things can be rectified.
 
2013-10-18 11:23:26 AM
And they grow up to vote Democrat, which means more of them will be on welfare, making more babies, more votes..... pretty cunning plan by Dems, keep the people down and dependent.
 
2013-10-18 11:23:50 AM

cig-mkr: I blame the manufacturing jobs going overseas, was a time when a person could get a fairly good paying job with just a high school education and a little training.


I really have to agree with you. It used to be if you had issues with book education at a university, trade and manufacturing jobs filled the need. That world is completely changed now. Now, there is an expectation that everyone is good with books. A lot of people I know are so much better working with their hands, but it can't be translated into good employment anywhere.
 
2013-10-18 11:24:11 AM

Headso: Debeo Summa Credo: Fact 1: Stupid people tend to be poorer than smart people

Fact 2: stupid people are more likely to have stupid kids than smart people

Fact 3: stupid kids grow up to be stupid adults that, surprise surprise, tend to be poorer than smart adults.

Why is any of this in any way surprising?

The surprising thing is your facts aren't even really true.

People with 140 IQ scores (a score of 100 is average) missed payments and maxed-out their credit cards more often than their lower IQ counterparts. They went bankrupt at a rate, 14.1%, close to the rate of people with an IQ of 80, 15.2%. "Only among people slightly above-average does an increasing IQ score lead to a reduced chance of financial distress," says the study. "The survey provides no data to explain why this occurs," but Zagorsky offers these explanations for High IQ types getting into financial hot water:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2007-0 8- 12-smart-not-rich_N.htm


Are you seriously trying to argue that smarter people don't tend to make more money than less intelligent people?
 
2013-10-18 11:24:28 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Headso: 2xcited: Hey waity a minute, did not LBJ and the Democrats say that spending on the Great Society, and declaring "War on Poverty," would eliminate this problem!  Sixteen trillion later I am still reading articles like this and listening to ads about one in eight children are hungry.  Holy Shiat and now we turned over Healthcare to these Bozo's.

I thought 99.6% of poor people own a refrigerator and poor people aren't really poor so they should get some skin in the game and pay more in taxes?

Well, while the fact that 249 out of every 250 people living in poverty have a refridgerators is certainly indicative of how much better off the poor of today have it relative to previous generations, it's somewhat irrelevant to the fact that more people need to pay tax and get some skin in the game.


the narrative is that it isn't irrelevant, you think fox news pushes that talkingpoint to make a benign comment about the fact that the human race has made advancements in technology over hundreds and thousands of years?
 
2013-10-18 11:24:30 AM

Thunderpipes: And they grow up to vote Democrat, which means more of them will be on welfare, making more babies, more votes..... pretty cunning plan by Dems, keep the people down and dependent.


Smart take.
 
2013-10-18 11:24:34 AM

cig-mkr: I blame the manufacturing jobs going overseas, was a time when a person could get a fairly good paying job with just a high school education and a little training.


What's really bad is there are a lot of cities that are still trying to get those jobs back here.  They're not coming back, and if they DO come back, they are automated.

Hell, even apple sorting has been automated.

I may write computer software, but a good amount of my time is spent filling out paperwork for management.

Paper pushing is the job of tomorrow.
 
2013-10-18 11:25:08 AM

meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"


Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.
 
2013-10-18 11:26:59 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Thunderpipes: And they grow up to vote Democrat, which means more of them will be on welfare, making more babies, more votes..... pretty cunning plan by Dems, keep the people down and dependent.

Smart take.


For his logic to be even remotely true, that would mean the South is a bastion of Democratic politicians....
 
2013-10-18 11:27:42 AM

Koodz: uber humper: Slaves2Darkness: uber humper: [www.betterthanpants.com image 704x272] If all you do is hope, you won't see any change

It's working great for the Blue states, but hey those Red states that refuse to give "Government Handouts" seem to be falling further and further behind. It's almost like in the 21st century we need our government to help us achieve success. That the "land of opportunity" is increasingly the "land of need an education".

I look at the map in the article and it corresponds very closely with how much aid states give to the poor. Those states that have liberal welfare policies have lowered poverty rates, high education rates, and better economies then states that don't.


I agree about the education but we need to find a better way to handle welfare.

China just dropped our credit rating because we are financing debt with more debt.  There is a tipping point on how much we can spend. The gov is currently paying 2% on the debt, once that goes up to more realistic numbers, the welfare is gonna take huge a hit. It;s not sustainable.  And the rich don't have enough money to tax.

It's a good thing welfare is the only item on the budget we could possibly be wasting money on.

I wonder if we cut defense spending to only 25% of the budget and contented ourselves with only having the most expensive military in the world instead of the galaxy how much welfare and tax cuts we could afford...


I keep hearing this argument over and over - but those that make this suggestion seem to forget one thing: how many people will be put out of work by cutting defense spending by X%...? And how about all those people who depend upon those workers getting a paycheck?

Dislike the military all you want ... but they actually employ (directly and indirectly) millions of people who produce something. And that's not even taking into account the multitude of civilian products that have been created as a result of items that were originally produced by the manufacturer's supplying equipment to the military.

Throwing more money at things that are non-productive, won't suddenly make them so.
 
2013-10-18 11:27:56 AM

meat0918: cig-mkr: I blame the manufacturing jobs going overseas, was a time when a person could get a fairly good paying job with just a high school education and a little training.

What's really bad is there are a lot of cities that are still trying to get those jobs back here.  They're not coming back, and if they DO come back, they are automated.

Hell, even apple sorting has been automated.

I may write computer software, but a good amount of my time is spent filling out paperwork for management.

Paper pushing is the job of tomorrow.


Heh. One of my first jobs in the 80s was working on a paperless system to get the office ready for the tech of tomorrow. I now work in an office with more computers AND paper than we had back then. Progress!
 
2013-10-18 11:28:22 AM

tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.


Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?
 
2013-10-18 11:29:16 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Well, while the fact that 249 out of every 250 people living in poverty have a refridgerators is certainly indicative of how much better off the poor of today have it relative to previous generations, it's somewhat irrelevant to the fact that more people need to pay tax and get some skin in the game.


Careful there. If you pack that shiat in any tighter, you might create a derp singularity.
 
2013-10-18 11:29:19 AM

Yeah_Right: how many people will be put out of work by cutting defense spending by X%...? And how about all those people who depend upon those workers getting a paycheck?

Dislike the military all you want ... but they actually employ (directly and indirectly) millions of people who produce something.


Defense spending is capital intensive, not labor intensive. If creating jobs is the goal, there are more effective ways to spend that money.
 
2013-10-18 11:29:24 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Headso: Debeo Summa Credo: Fact 1: Stupid people tend to be poorer than smart people

Fact 2: stupid people are more likely to have stupid kids than smart people

Fact 3: stupid kids grow up to be stupid adults that, surprise surprise, tend to be poorer than smart adults.

Why is any of this in any way surprising?

The surprising thing is your facts aren't even really true.

People with 140 IQ scores (a score of 100 is average) missed payments and maxed-out their credit cards more often than their lower IQ counterparts. They went bankrupt at a rate, 14.1%, close to the rate of people with an IQ of 80, 15.2%. "Only among people slightly above-average does an increasing IQ score lead to a reduced chance of financial distress," says the study. "The survey provides no data to explain why this occurs," but Zagorsky offers these explanations for High IQ types getting into financial hot water:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2007-0 8- 12-smart-not-rich_N.htm

Are you seriously trying to argue that smarter people don't tend to make more money than less intelligent people?


the study is making the argument that intelligence and wealth are not 

Debeo Summa Credo: Headso: Debeo Summa Credo: Fact 1: Stupid people tend to be poorer than smart people

Fact 2: stupid people are more likely to have stupid kids than smart people

Fact 3: stupid kids grow up to be stupid adults that, surprise surprise, tend to be poorer than smart adults.

Why is any of this in any way surprising?

The surprising thing is your facts aren't even really true.

People with 140 IQ scores (a score of 100 is average) missed payments and maxed-out their credit cards more often than their lower IQ counterparts. They went bankrupt at a rate, 14.1%, close to the rate of people with an IQ of 80, 15.2%. "Only among people slightly above-average does an increasing IQ score lead to a reduced chance of financial distress," says the study. "The survey provides no data to explain why this occurs," but Zagorsky offers these explanations for High IQ types getting into financial hot water:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/columnist/vergano/2007-0 8- 12-smart-not-rich_N.htm

Are you seriously trying to argue that smarter people don't tend to make more money than less intelligent people?


Like you I would have thought that they do but apparently that is not the case according to the study I linked to, that's why I said "surprisingly your facts aren't really true"

The answer is no. "Being more intelligent does not confer any advantage along two of the three key dimensions of financial success (income, net worth and financial distress)," Zagorsky finds, looking at the data with statistical tests. Income does weakly correspond to intelligence test scores, he finds, where "a one point increase in IQ test scores is related to an income increase of $346 per year. But at most, that same one-point increase in IQ leads to "a net worth increase of at most $83, but probably zero."
 
2013-10-18 11:29:59 AM
whoops...
 
2013-10-18 11:30:58 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Ned Stark: DrewCurtisJr: Tom_Slick: Get rid of NCLB and maybe we can get some decent public schools again.

What? The reason we have NCLB is because the public schools weren't doing well, especially with low income students.

Its a nessecary but not sufficient condition.

You want to make the schools decent again? Bring back corporal punishment.


Or how about we just let the teachers teach? Challenge the kids. Kids who don't do well need to be held back til they get it; kids who aren't challenged by the standard level of work get more complex work (not more volume). NCLB doesn't work. Our kids have to pass standardized tests to advance grades, yet they don't know how to think because the schools teach to the test. They teach test taking skills and mnemonics and bullshiat like that instead of helping the kids acquire a real knowledge of the subjects. And yeah, I agree, many of the kids could do with a good paddling--but they would then just be well-behaved, uneducated, test-takers.
 
2013-10-18 11:31:12 AM
It's all greedy rich people's fault they are poor.
 
2013-10-18 11:31:22 AM

meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?


I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.
 
2013-10-18 11:31:26 AM
Doesn't statistics mean that these are now AVERAGE income students?  Problem solved!

(Math is always the answer.)
 
2013-10-18 11:32:47 AM

FarkedOver: Capitalism is bullshiat. Cooperation is the only way we can and the only way we will succeed as a planet.



Capitalism is cooperation.  It's the voluntary exchange of property for mutual benefit.
 
2013-10-18 11:33:01 AM

Fano: Zero tolerance and teaching to the test, combined with other asinine policies assures that anyone who cares about their children will either send them to private school or home school them.


We use public school as free day care as it doesn't challenge my kid--even in the high school honors program (we are in Texas). So his actual learning takes place at home most of the time.....
 
2013-10-18 11:33:19 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?

I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.


Nope.  Plain old boring passenger car tires in regular sizes:   High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires
 
2013-10-18 11:33:30 AM
Koodz:

I wonder if we cut defense spending to only 25% of the budget and contented ourselves with only having the most expensive military in the world instead of the galaxy how much welfare and tax cuts we could afford...

While I agree we spend way too much on defense, I wonder what we would do with all of the people that would instantly become unemployed under your plan. Last I heard, about 3 million people work in defense related industries.
 
2013-10-18 11:34:05 AM

tricycleracer: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?

I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.

Nope.  Plain old boring passenger car tires in regular sizes:   High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires


What in the fark!?
 
2013-10-18 11:34:48 AM

Phinn: Capitalism is cooperation. It's the voluntary exchange of property for mutual benefit.


The worker isn't voluntarily selling his/her labor. The worker has no choice but to sell their labor or they do not eat.  That is not cooperation.
 
2013-10-18 11:34:49 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: tricycleracer: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?

I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.

Nope.  Plain old boring passenger car tires in regular sizes:   High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires

What in the fark!?


Free market solutions man.
 
2013-10-18 11:35:27 AM

Yellow Beard: I wonder what we would do with all of the people that would instantly become unemployed under your plan.


They wouldn't necessarily become 'instantly' unemployed. Those that do would have to find another job. FWIW, I'd be one of them, and that is fine by me.
 
2013-10-18 11:35:33 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?

I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.


Nope, tires.
http://www.gorimco.com/
http://www.rentawheel.com/How-it-Works
 
2013-10-18 11:36:52 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Fact 1: Stupid people tend to be poorer than smart people

Fact 2: stupid people are more likely to have stupid kids than smart people

Fact 3: stupid kids grow up to be stupid adults that, surprise surprise, tend to be poorer than smart adults.

Why is any of this in any way surprising?


Because you're using a bunch of "tends to" statements to draw an absolute conclusion that sensible people reject.
 
2013-10-18 11:37:11 AM

FarkedOver: Phinn: Capitalism is cooperation. It's the voluntary exchange of property for mutual benefit.

The worker isn't voluntarily selling his/her labor. The worker has no choice but to sell their labor or they do not eat.  That is not cooperation.



Of course it is.  Even your hypothetical starving worker is greatly improving his situation (starvation -> death) by making a voluntary agreement with an employer to get paid for work (income -> food).
 
2013-10-18 11:37:11 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: tricycleracer: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: meat0918: tricycleracer: meat0918: tricycleracer: It's expensive to be poor in America.

More than once I've heard the sentiment "I'm too poor to shop at Walmart, because that shiat falls apart all the time, and I cannot afford to be replacing stuff all the time"

Check out the rent-to-own tire industry.

1.  Need tires to get to work or you'll lose your job.
2.  Get rent to own tires since you can't afford an all cash deal.
3.  Pay 10x what the tires actually cost.

Rent to own TIRES?!?!!??!??!

I'm.......

goddamnit, wtf?

I think he may be confusing rent to own "tires" (which I've never heard of) with rent to own wheels, ie 22" rims. Rent to own rim stores are everywhere.

Nope.  Plain old boring passenger car tires in regular sizes:   High prices are driving more motorists to rent tires

What in the fark!?


We have had rental tires in my area for as long as I can remember, but they are all by tiny companies in buildings that make you want to wash your hands just looking at them. They always reminded me of the pay day loan locations.
 
2013-10-18 11:37:39 AM

Yeah_Right: Koodz: uber humper: Slaves2Darkness: uber humper: [www.betterthanpants.com image 704x272] If all you do is hope, you won't see any change

It's working great for the Blue states, but hey those Red states that refuse to give "Government Handouts" seem to be falling further and further behind. It's almost like in the 21st century we need our government to help us achieve success. That the "land of opportunity" is increasingly the "land of need an education".

I look at the map in the article and it corresponds very closely with how much aid states give to the poor. Those states that have liberal welfare policies have lowered poverty rates, high education rates, and better economies then states that don't.


I agree about the education but we need to find a better way to handle welfare.

China just dropped our credit rating because we are financing debt with more debt.  There is a tipping point on how much we can spend. The gov is currently paying 2% on the debt, once that goes up to more realistic numbers, the welfare is gonna take huge a hit. It;s not sustainable.  And the rich don't have enough money to tax.

It's a good thing welfare is the only item on the budget we could possibly be wasting money on.

I wonder if we cut defense spending to only 25% of the budget and contented ourselves with only having the most expensive military in the world instead of the galaxy how much welfare and tax cuts we could afford...

I keep hearing this argument over and over - but those that make this suggestion seem to forget one thing: how many people will be put out of work by cutting defense spending by X%...? And how about all those people who depend upon those workers getting a paycheck?

Dislike the military all you want ... but they actually employ (directly and indirectly) millions of people who produce something. And that's not even taking into account the multitude of civilian products that have been created as a result of items that were originally produced by the manufa ...


The problem with many military projects is that they provide no further benefit once the paycheck's gone out. A Hellfire missile costs around $100,000 to $150,000. Someone got paid to build it, great, but munitions by definition are single use. Predator 2 drones can hold up to 14 of these, so that's 1.4 to 2.1 million dollars that will never benefit us again once used. That same amount of money could go a long way in a public school system, or hell, even used to repair roads and bridges back home.
 
2013-10-18 11:37:46 AM

error 303: One thing my wife and I sort of argue about is what we're going to do for school when our three year old (and later on our 4 month old_ gets a bit older. We happily live a few blocks outside of the unaccredited Kansas City district and our district seems to be about average, but she's leaning towards sending our kids to a private school, even if it means that means a religious school, while I'd really rather have our girls in public school. The notion of middle class families, and, yeah, white families, pulling their kids out of urban public schools and putting them in private, suburban schools, always bothers me, as I think having involved and interested parents who are genuinely concerned about their childs education matters more than just "where" a child winds up.

But on the flip side, all the private schools around here just look "better" by each metric, and as a parent, you want the best for your kids.

I dunno. As a product of private, religious schools up until my sophmore year of highschool, when I made it clear to my parents I absolutely hated every aspect of private school, I'm really, really pushing to keep our kids in the public school system, but it's hard to really fault her for wanting our kids to go to the best available school, even if it means paying out of pocket and trying to figure out how to explain to them whey we don't acutally do any of the religious stuff school says to do.

tl;dr, sucks that public school systems are largely in shambles


Smart Parents are what is going to make smart kids. If you are involved with your kids, public school is better for a lot of reasons. Religious schools have just two goals;take your money and brainwash your kids into believing non-reproducible ideas. I know I had a hard time in private catholic school: my brother excelled.
 
2013-10-18 11:38:54 AM
Geez, Atlantic ... ever heard of .. never mind. You're too dense to understand.
 
2013-10-18 11:39:54 AM

Yellow Beard: Koodz:

I wonder if we cut defense spending to only 25% of the budget and contented ourselves with only having the most expensive military in the world instead of the galaxy how much welfare and tax cuts we could afford...

While I agree we spend way too much on defense, I wonder what we would do with all of the people that would instantly become unemployed under your plan. Last I heard, about 3 million people work in defense related industries.


presumably they'd get jobs in the private sector if the tax cuts went to the people who actually spend money in the country or in the government under the  increased social services spending.
 
2013-10-18 11:40:12 AM
This seems like a meaningless statistic to me.

The poverty line is determined by what people have.  If everyone has less, the poverty line should be lowered.  Claiming there is an objective poverty line is crazy....and I can tell you from first hand experience there are people on welfare in the US who live better than working class people in other countries.

//400 sq ft. apartment
//No cable TV
//No car
//No a/c
//EU
 
2013-10-18 11:40:36 AM

FarkedOver: Phinn: Capitalism is cooperation. It's the voluntary exchange of property for mutual benefit.

The worker isn't voluntarily selling his/her labor. The worker has no choice but to sell their labor or they do not eat.  That is not cooperation.


It's still voluntary, unless you think the term means "free from motivation." It doesn't.
 
2013-10-18 11:40:44 AM

Phinn: Of course it is. Even your hypothetical starving worker is greatly improving his situation (starvation -> death) by making a voluntary agreement with an employer to get paid for work (income -> food).


That is not a hypothetical.  Every person that sells their labor power does so in order to survive.  That's not a choice.  That is the very definition of subjugation and coercion.
 
2013-10-18 11:40:55 AM
Positive.  Roll.  Models.  Where can you get some?  I've looked online.  I've looked in the old phone books.  I've looked at sports.  I know better than to look to business.

Sadly the rich do not deign to live in poverty stricken areas for some reason, so they're no help.
 
2013-10-18 11:42:30 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: It's still voluntary, unless you think the term means "free from motivation." It doesn't.


No, it is survival not volunteerism.
 
2013-10-18 11:43:34 AM

Headso: Yellow Beard: Koodz:

I wonder if we cut defense spending to only 25% of the budget and contented ourselves with only having the most expensive military in the world instead of the galaxy how much welfare and tax cuts we could afford...

While I agree we spend way too much on defense, I wonder what we would do with all of the people that would instantly become unemployed under your plan. Last I heard, about 3 million people work in defense related industries.

presumably they'd get jobs in the private sector if the tax cuts went to the people who actually spend money in the country or in the government under the  increased social services spending.


The problem there is that there just aren't that many jobs available that would pay anywhere near the same salary. If there were, why is unemployment still so high?
 
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