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(Washington Times)   America is not going to fall like Ancient Rome. Source: leading authority on Ancient Rome   (washingtontimes.com) divider line 66
    More: Cool, military dictatorship  
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1860 clicks; posted to Politics » on 16 Oct 2013 at 5:41 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-16 04:25:13 PM
Pfffft what does this scholar of Rome have to tell me about Rome? - says teabaggers all the time.
 
2013-10-16 04:31:15 PM
"This Empire is sure to last through the ages!" -Osman, Napoleon, Alexander, Genghis, Charlemagne, etc.
 
2013-10-16 04:51:26 PM

comhcinc: Pfffft what does this scholar of Rome have to tell me ?  about Rome? - says teabaggers all the time.

 
2013-10-16 05:19:37 PM
Since this is the Moonie Times I have to assume we're doomed.
 
2013-10-16 05:28:50 PM
Well, we got the circus

/problem is the circus wants to cut off the bread
 
2013-10-16 05:42:35 PM
If this wasn't from the freaking Washington Times it would be more reassuring.
 
2013-10-16 05:45:49 PM
Yeah, the Visigoths aren't around anymore. It will be the Russians and/or Chinese that sack us.
 
2013-10-16 05:46:31 PM

simplicimus: comhcinc: Pfffft what does this scholar of Rome have to tell me about Rome? - says teabaggers all the time.

75% of Americans.
 
2013-10-16 05:47:58 PM
The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.
 
2013-10-16 05:48:47 PM
Have you seen today's Goths? No way they're bringing down America.
 
2013-10-16 05:49:13 PM
What Vandals might look like:


www.thestranger.com
 
2013-10-16 05:51:26 PM

lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.


Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.
 
2013-10-16 05:53:16 PM
The Roman Empire fell in part because the slave trade gave the nobility access to skilled laborers for significantly less, thereby eroding the middle class.  The United States 1% is definitely not using foreign semi-skilled labor at a pittance of the cost it would incur locally.  Our middle class is bigger and stronger than ever.
 
2013-10-16 05:54:58 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

Would like a word with you subby.
 
2013-10-16 05:56:29 PM

simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.


Non-sense, with prudent use of technology it has never been cheaper or safer to destroy our enemies. I give it a few years before we simply outsource the military to an Indian call center.
 
2013-10-16 05:57:07 PM
To all things, an ending.
 
2013-10-16 05:57:30 PM
We need a Photoshop of Boehner playing the fiddle.
 
2013-10-16 05:58:54 PM

simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.


Depends on how you measure "the fall of Rome".  The eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a., Byzantium) lasted almost a thousand years after the "fall" of the west.
 
2013-10-16 06:01:01 PM

mutterfark: Have you seen today's Goths? No way they're bringing down America.


Empires crumble to dust. Everything dies, even death.  After I finish my clove cigarette, want to hear a poem I wrote?  It's called "Even My Pain is Suffering".

Fine.  I'll just go back to my room and cut myself a few times to let the pain out.
 
2013-10-16 06:02:21 PM

lockers: simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.

Non-sense, with prudent use of technology it has never been cheaper or safer to destroy our enemies. I give it a few years before we simply outsource the military to an Indian call center.


Please to be doing the needful and blowing up yourself, thank you
 
2013-10-16 06:03:18 PM
Unskewed history teaches us that the plebs of Rome attempted to stop a reckless, foreign Emperor who tried to provide them health protection, but they refused to follow him unless they also gave the patricians a large tax break.

The dark-skinned Emperor with a funny name refused to show leadership by acquiescing to all of their demands, and as a result, they were invaded and conquered by non-Christians.
 
2013-10-16 06:03:47 PM

Skwrl: simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.

Depends on how you measure "the fall of Rome".  The eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a., Byzantium) lasted almost a thousand years after the "fall" of the west.


Oh crap, does this mean we'll get squeezed by both Crusaders and Seljuq Turks?
 
2013-10-16 06:04:09 PM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: lockers: simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.

Non-sense, with prudent use of technology it has never been cheaper or safer to destroy our enemies. I give it a few years before we simply outsource the military to an Indian call center.

Please to be doing the needful and blowing up yourself, thank you


Have you tried turning the bomb off, then on again?
 
2013-10-16 06:04:33 PM
Things we can learn from ancient empires:

1.- When you're too big to continue, step down
2.- Never include Germans in your army
3.- Orgies are a good thing
4.- Never wage a war with Russia during winter... Unless you're the Mongols.
 
2013-10-16 06:04:52 PM
I've always assumed we'll end up like the British empire. A once great power that declined slowly into irrelevance  thanks to  arrogance, greed, and short-sightedness.
 
2013-10-16 06:05:27 PM

UrukHaiGuyz: Skwrl: simplicimus: lockers: The US is a very peculiar empire. Most empires force vassal states to pay them. We, on the other hand, require our vassal states to sell us stuff. When our empire crumbles it will be pretty unique in history.

Not that peculiar. Part of the collapse of Rome was due to trade imbalance. When you can't pay your mercenaries anymore, bad things happen.

Depends on how you measure "the fall of Rome".  The eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a., Byzantium) lasted almost a thousand years after the "fall" of the west.

Oh crap, does this mean we'll get squeezed by both Crusaders and Seljuq Turks?


Look on the bright side, Obama will get Vikings as the Secret Service.
 
2013-10-16 06:06:21 PM
Just FYI, this guy is talking about the fall of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Sulla, Crassus, Pompey, and Caesar; not the Vandals and Visigoths. And he's right, for all our shiatty politicians, we haven't yet been graced with the likes of Sulla.
 
2013-10-16 06:08:57 PM

Tranquil Hegemony: Just FYI, this guy is talking about the fall of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Sulla, Crassus, Pompey, and Caesar; not the Vandals and Visigoths. And he's right, for all our shiatty politicians, we haven't yet been graced with the likes of Sulla.


From the article:

"The Romans had decades of state-sanctioned violence, coups and countercoups, and military dictatorship before they reached the standoff between Cato and Caesar. The current standoff is more a case of ineptitude and jockeying for the next election," he continues."

You're pretty much spot on.
 
2013-10-16 06:10:52 PM
We've decided to go full on Greece. We're not producing creators anymore. We're mortgaging the home to pay for our good times and eventually we'll be borrowing just to pay off of mandatory spending. We'll become poor and foreign financiers will buy us up for a song. To fix it, all we need to do is stop defecit spending but so many refuse to admit we have a problem.  It's only a matter of time before our credit is junk and a default will be unavoidable.
 
2013-10-16 06:11:17 PM

Tranquil Hegemony: Just FYI, this guy is talking about the fall of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire.


This did confuse me at first.
 
2013-10-16 06:13:08 PM

Tranquil Hegemony: Just FYI, this guy is talking about the fall of the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Sulla, Crassus, Pompey, and Caesar; not the Vandals and Visigoths. And he's right, for all our shiatty politicians, we haven't yet been graced with the likes of Sulla.


The position of Dictator was definitely the weak link in the Republican system.

/It's a state of emergency because I say it's a state of emergency!
 
2013-10-16 06:16:01 PM

CygnusDarius: Things we can learn from ancient empires:

1.- When you're too big to continue, step down
2.- Never include Germans in your army
3.- Orgies are a good thing
4.- Never wage a war with Russia during winter... Unless you're the Mongols.


i1.ytimg.com

/obligatory
 
2013-10-16 06:19:15 PM
Maybe we're more like the Spanish Empire.

Made plenty of enemies while going for the gold with guns ...

Lost a major war in a very public way ...

Had a hereditary successor who was an inbred idiot on the throne, with the provinces taking more power from the court while the economy stagnated ...

The nobility spent more time scheming against one another than trying to right the country's ills ...

With its military might and fortune, aimed to be the Christian world's policemen ...

And let religious zealots run amok, ruining a once-thriving diverse, intellectual community.
 
2013-10-16 06:19:27 PM
I'm currently reading Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" so I'm getting a kick ...
 
2013-10-16 06:21:03 PM
I could have told you that this is nothign like the Fall of the Empire. It would be closer to the Fall of the Republic, but... not.

This could have ended badly in one of three ways:

1) Obama caves, reducing the Senate and the Presidency to nothing and the majority of the House in effective charge of everything. Fall of the Republic due to rule by Retarded Mob.

2) The House refuses to play ball, and Obama is forced to take extralegal measures, sending Congress into effective meaninglessness. Fall of the Republic and rise of a Popular Dictatorship.

3) Obama does nothing, House does nothing, economy collapses. Fall of the Republic and the destruction or forced-irrelevancy of the State.

I am very glad none of these have come to pass... crossing my fingers
 
2013-10-16 06:21:36 PM
btw, for anyone interested in this stuff, this book is an excellent read. Follow it up with HBO's "Rome" ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Rubicon-Last-Years-Roman-Republic/dp/140007897 0
 
2013-10-16 06:23:51 PM
Everyone knows it was Christianity that brought the Roman Empire down from the inside, sapping its values of worldly strength and tolerant polytheism. All the better reason to keep a better eye on our own right-wing religious crazies.
 
2013-10-16 06:27:57 PM

Practical_Draconian: Maybe we're more like the Spanish Empire.

Made plenty of enemies while going for the gold with guns ...

Lost a major war in a very public way ...

Had a hereditary successor who was an inbred idiot on the throne, with the provinces taking more power from the court while the economy stagnated ...

The nobility spent more time scheming against one another than trying to right the country's ills ...

With its military might and fortune, aimed to be the Christian world's policemen ...

And let religious zealots run amok, ruining a once-thriving diverse, intellectual community.


Well if that's the case shouldn't our armadas be financed by the Pope? What gives, Francis?
 
2013-10-16 06:35:15 PM

Summercat: I could have told you that this is nothign like the Fall of the Empire. It would be closer to the Fall of the Republic, but... not.

This could have ended badly in one of three ways:

1) Obama caves, reducing the Senate and the Presidency to nothing and the majority of the House in effective charge of everything. Fall of the Republic due to rule by Retarded Mob.

2) The House refuses to play ball, and Obama is forced to take extralegal measures, sending Congress into effective meaninglessness. Fall of the Republic and rise of a Popular Dictatorship.

3) Obama does nothing, House does nothing, economy collapses. Fall of the Republic and the destruction or forced-irrelevancy of the State.

I am very glad none of these have come to pass... crossing my fingers


To make it like the end of the Republic, Obama would have to somehow get appointed Dictator and then later declare he will be "Dictator for Life" before leaking out all over the Senate steps.

Our system doesn't have a mechanism to (temporarily) break the three-way rock/scissors/paper balance of power between the three branches of government even in times of emergency.  An usurping Dicatator like Julius Caesar can't happen here.
 
2013-10-16 06:35:35 PM

Mrbogey: We've decided to go full on Greece. We're not producing creators anymore. We're mortgaging the home to pay for our good times and eventually we'll be borrowing just to pay off of mandatory spending. We'll become poor and foreign financiers will buy us up for a song. To fix it, all we need to do is stop defecit spending but so many refuse to admit we have a problem.  It's only a matter of time before our credit is junk and a default will be unavoidable.


We know we have a problem, the problem is we don't want to face it responsibly. Everyone with any sense knows that spending cuts alone wont be enough to tackle the deficit, but that is exactly what Republicans want to do. That and tax cuts. Which makes no economic sense. Then there is the fact that Republicans have threatened to default the United States government to achieve financial responsibility, which is a bit like shooting yourself in the head to cure a headache. You know, because when you don't pay your debts, interest goes up and thus you pay more than you otherwise would of and less people invest in you.

I hope this is the last time idiots in Washington mess with the debt limit, it has to be or we are doomed. Hell, we could still get a downgrade because of this 11th hour bullshiat like last time. Which again, means our interests go up. Thus we pay more than we might of otherwise.
 
2013-10-16 06:47:35 PM

palelizard: mutterfark: Have you seen today's Goths? No way they're bringing down America.

Empires crumble to dust. Everything dies, even death.  After I finish my clove cigarette, want to hear a poem I wrote?  It's called "Even My Pain is Suffering".

Fine.  I'll just go back to my room and cut myself a few times to let the pain out.


DIAF!  Goths do not CUT themselves.  Goths cut the damn Emos.  farking Emos...
 
2013-10-16 06:48:23 PM

IoSaturnalia: Summercat: I could have told you that this is nothign like the Fall of the Empire. It would be closer to the Fall of the Republic, but... not.

This could have ended badly in one of three ways:

1) Obama caves, reducing the Senate and the Presidency to nothing and the majority of the House in effective charge of everything. Fall of the Republic due to rule by Retarded Mob.

2) The House refuses to play ball, and Obama is forced to take extralegal measures, sending Congress into effective meaninglessness. Fall of the Republic and rise of a Popular Dictatorship.

3) Obama does nothing, House does nothing, economy collapses. Fall of the Republic and the destruction or forced-irrelevancy of the State.

I am very glad none of these have come to pass... crossing my fingers

To make it like the end of the Republic, Obama would have to somehow get appointed Dictator and then later declare he will be "Dictator for Life" before leaking out all over the Senate steps.

Our system doesn't have a mechanism to (temporarily) break the three-way rock/scissors/paper balance of power between the three branches of government even in times of emergency.  An usurping Dicatator like Julius Caesar can't happen here.


Slightly incorrect.

The Republic really ended two generations before Caeser, although the damage to the internal authority and 'imperium', or right to rule on behalf of the state, took time to show. Caeser was a symptom of the death throes of the Republic as much as the symbol of it's end. And even then, it wasn't until Octavian took power as Imperator did the Republic finally ebb the last of it's life.
 
2013-10-16 07:11:12 PM

bbfreak: We know we have a problem, the problem is we don't want to face it responsibly. Everyone with any sense knows that spending cuts alone wont be enough to tackle the deficit, but that is exactly what Republicans want to do. That and tax cuts. Which makes no economic sense. Then there is the fact that Republicans have threatened to default the United States government to achieve financial responsibility, which is a bit like shooting yourself in the head to cure a headache. You know, because when you don't pay your debts, interest goes up and thus you pay more than you otherwise would of and less people invest in you.


But that's not happened though. We had tax hikes. Top marginal went up. The tax burden on Americans has gone up. The Republicans at this point are not proposing much in terms of tax reform. Certainly not many cuts. They in fact rejected deals Obama offered that would involve tax cuts in conjunction with spending increases.

There is also nothing the Republicans can do to force a default as they aren't in the Executive branch or a majority in the Legislative. The default talk was scaremongering on his part and it'll probably cost us our credit rating. The biggest hurdle to it was technical with Fedwire. That's it. The folks claiming it'd be illegal are using the same arguments that essentially make the entire debt ceiling illegal. The truth is it's just legally untested.
 
2013-10-16 07:33:06 PM
Roman Republic != Roman Empire.   In fact, we are in a similar situation to the Roman Empire before it fell into the Dark Ages.
The Empire fell because of pointless wars and spiraling spending deficits.   Eventually it was unable to pay the army, the empire fell to invaders.
Rome wasn't too big to fail, and neither is the USA.  It can happen.  It will happen if the deficit is not shored up.
 
2013-10-16 07:34:32 PM
I think the similarity with late Republican Rome is just that the system itself doesn't seem to be working anymore. It's an old system of government slowly functioning less and less well with modern society.

(Hey - I remember Prof. Strauss!  Took a course from him on the Peloponnesian War.)
 
2013-10-16 07:42:14 PM

Mrbogey: But that's not happened though. We had tax hikes. Top marginal went up. The tax burden on Americans has gone up. The Republicans at this point are not proposing much in terms of tax reform. Certainly not many cuts. They in fact rejected deals Obama offered that would involve tax cuts in conjunction with spending increases.


Your proof of the tax burden going up is an increase in the cigarette tax? Need I mention how the tax plans usually created by the right consist of a smaller income tax in return for a higher sales tax (ie: Fairtax)?

Mrbogey: There is also nothing the Republicans can do to force a default as they aren't in the Executive branch or a majority in the Legislative. The default talk was scaremongering on his part and it'll probably cost us our credit rating.


Yep, it's solely Obama's fault if our credit rating gets downgraded. Republicans share absolutely none of the blame.
 
2013-10-16 07:58:02 PM
Oh no we're not going to fall like the Roman Empire.

We're going to fall a new and exciting way... truly spectacular.

A "hey y'all watch this" kind of fall.

One for the ages... something to remember.
 
2013-10-16 07:58:53 PM
Canadians are going to begin a southern migration?
 
2013-10-16 08:00:10 PM

JesusJuice: Canadians are going to begin a southern migration?


You haven't been to Florida in the winter have you?

It's already begun!
 
2013-10-16 08:39:13 PM
 
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