If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   France would like all you Catholics to know that Lord's Prayer you're all so fond of saying is actually a sordid screed of blasphemy   (slate.com) divider line 76
    More: Interesting, Lord's Prayer, Catholics, Christian theology, bibles  
•       •       •

9603 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Oct 2013 at 9:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



76 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-10-16 11:00:16 AM  

2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".


He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.
 
2013-10-16 11:01:04 AM  

Pocket Ninja: But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?


Yes.
 
2013-10-16 11:06:59 AM  
I like how Robert Heinlein interpreted the Lord's Prayer in his book, "Job:A Comedy of Justice". The main character is talking to Satan, complaining about all the trials and tribulations he's been experiencing. Satan tells him that the main character gave God permission to do it. When he doesn't believe it, Satan says:

"My Brother Yahweh, wearing His Jesus face, said: 'After this manner therefore pray ye.' Go ahead, say it."

"Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done -"

"Stop! Stop right there. 'Thy will be done -' No Muslim claiming to be a 'slave of God' ever gave a more sweeping consent than that. In that prayer you invite Him to do His worst. The perfect masochist. That's the test of Job, boy.  Job was treated unjustly in every way day after day for years - I know, I know, I was there; I did it - and My dear Brother stood by and let Me do it. Let Me? He urged Me, He connived in it, accessory ahead of the fact. Now it's your turn. Your God did it to you. Will you curse Him? Or will you come wiggling back on your belly like a whipped dog?'
 
2013-10-16 11:10:40 AM  

grumpfuff: 2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".

He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.


Perhaps I should elaborate on this. Think of it like this.

You're in a room with another guy. The guy says "You have two choices. Either I can give you $20, or you will give me $1000." Now, I, as the outside observer, know that you're going to chose to have the guy give you $20. That doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

Of course, this isn't a great example, because I'm not omniscient, and you could of course still chose to give the guy $1000. But I hope it serves to illustrate the basic point.
 
2013-10-16 11:17:01 AM  

grumpfuff: grumpfuff: 2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".

He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.

Perhaps I should elaborate on this. Think of it like this.

You're in a room with another guy. The guy says "You have two choices. Either I can give you $20, or you will give me $1000." Now, I, as the outside observer, know that you're going to chose to have the guy give you $20. That doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

Of course, this isn't a great example, because I'm not omniscient, and you could of course still chose to give the guy $1000. But I hope it serves to illustrate the basic point.


Not that I think there is a God, but for argument's sake, why should God be constrained to time (something he ostensibly created)? If he exists outside of time, than all of creation from beginning to end should be visible to him at once. Predestination only makes sense even as a question from our tiny time-constrained perspective.
 
2013-10-16 11:22:18 AM  

here to help: Why is it Americans hate the French so much? They helped the US gain independence and most of it's supposed ideals like democracy are derived from French ideas.

Is it 'cause they talk all funnylike, guhyuck?


We don't hate the French, we just don't respect them
 
2013-10-16 11:44:14 AM  

grumpfuff: grumpfuff: 2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".

He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.

Perhaps I should elaborate on this. Think of it like this.

You're in a room with another guy. The guy says "You have two choices. Either I can give you $20, or you will give me $1000." Now, I, as the outside observer, know that you're going to chose to have the guy give you $20. That doesn't mean you don't have a choice.

Of course, this isn't a great example, because I'm not omniscient, and you could of course still chose to give the guy $1000. But I hope it serves to illustrate the basic point.


Thanks for the answer, but that is why I specifically used the word illusion when refering to the free will and didn't say it does not exist at all. God doesn't make my screwed up decisions for me (like, say, posting on Fark about God), but he knows that I'm going to be stupid and make the wrong call.
 
2013-10-16 12:17:13 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Not that I think there is a God, but for argument's sake, why should God be constrained to time (something he ostensibly created)? If he exists outside of time, than all of creation from beginning to end should be visible to him at once. Predestination only makes sense even as a question from our tiny time-constrained perspective.


What part of that example leaves God constrained by time? The point of the example is simple. An omniscient being can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it.
 
2013-10-16 12:36:25 PM  

grumpfuff: UrukHaiGuyz: Not that I think there is a God, but for argument's sake, why should God be constrained to time (something he ostensibly created)? If he exists outside of time, than all of creation from beginning to end should be visible to him at once. Predestination only makes sense even as a question from our tiny time-constrained perspective.

What part of that example leaves God constrained by time? The point of the example is simple. An omniscient being can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it.


I understood your example, but it is based on rational reactions to stimuli, which is not how mankind (Adam and Eve) acted if we're take Genesis at all literally.

What I'm saying is that if God exists outside of time, then he is omnipresent throughout time, and questions of causality become meaningless if all of natural existence was created at once. He/She/It would have forced all eventual outcomes at once at the moment of creation. From that perspective, everything that has or will happen is/was dictated the moment the Universe sprang into being.
 
2013-10-16 12:39:23 PM  

Deep Contact: Oh boy, here comes another round of Cathar killings.


images4.wikia.nocookie.netmedia-titanium.cursecdn.com
What did Juhani or Aric Jorgan ever do to you?
 
2013-10-16 12:43:37 PM  

Literally Addicted: Silly_Sot: The problem is the translation of "peirasmos", which could mean "temptation" but could also just as commonly mean "test". However, somebody, a VERY long time ago, decided that the Latin for "peirasmos" was "tentationem", which means "temptation" in Latin, but it also means "trial" or "proof" (as in "prove yourself"). Okay, no problem, original meaning essentially kept from Greek to Latin. But the meaning of the words descended from the Latin "tentationem" changed to only mean what we mean when we say "temptation". Translations were not updated to keep up with changes in language, so we are left with an archaism that gives embarrassment to the devout and delight to the childish.

I don't think the confusion lies between the difference of "temptation" or "trial"...they're pretty synonomous in any language...it was in the interpretation of the phrasing.  In a prayer to god, "lead us not into temptation" was being considered as a literal request in the prayer, as opposed to the general beseeching not be tempted.


"But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."
Exodus 9:12 (New International Version)
 
2013-10-16 12:47:11 PM  

PunGent: Boba Chet: Bullshiat.  One nation under God.  fark you, France!

Funny thing; turns out that "one nation"?

Lichtenstein.

Who knew?


static.yify-torrents.com
This guy did.
 
2013-10-16 12:55:29 PM  

ciberido: "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."
Exodus 9:12 (New International Version)


Sorry, apparently I'm still working on the old international version, the buggy beta one.
 
2013-10-16 12:58:07 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: grumpfuff: UrukHaiGuyz: Not that I think there is a God, but for argument's sake, why should God be constrained to time (something he ostensibly created)? If he exists outside of time, than all of creation from beginning to end should be visible to him at once. Predestination only makes sense even as a question from our tiny time-constrained perspective.

What part of that example leaves God constrained by time? The point of the example is simple. An omniscient being can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it.

I understood your example, but it is based on rational reactions to stimuli, which is not how mankind (Adam and Eve) acted if we're take Genesis at all literally.


I might have found the problem here.

What I'm saying is that if God exists outside of time, then he is omnipresent throughout time, and questions of causality become meaningless if all of natural existence was created at once. He/She/It would have forced all eventual outcomes at once at the moment of creation. From that perspective, everything that has or will happen is/was dictated the moment the Universe sprang into being.

This doesn't change anything. He can still know the choice you're going to make, without forcing you to make it. Using the above example, god would see it before it happens, know that person is a reasonably intelligent person, and therefore know he will chose to take the $20. That doesn't mean he's standing behind the guy going "You will chose the $20!"

The predetermination you're discussing has nothing to do with god. There is a theory in philosophy that, given the exact conditions of the universe at the moment of the Big Bang, you could then predict everything that will happen because physical laws. Of course, quantum mechanics/chaos theory threw a monkey wrench in that idea, but for some reason it still exists in reference to religion.

Then of course there's the argument that God knows everything that has already happened, but does not know the future precisely because of free will. There's also an argument that the Bible never calls god perfectly good, just usually good. And of course, let's not forget the argument that god is not present everywhere, because why the hell would god be watching an area in outer space with nothing going on(basically, he has the potential to be anywhere he wants, but that doesn't mean he's everywhere at once)

And I've ranted enough, because at this point I forget what the hell my original point was. So...yea.

/really should stop discussing religion on fark
//but how the hell else will I put my degrees to use
 
2013-10-16 01:52:09 PM  

grumpfuff: 2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".

He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.


In Christian theology, the distinction is between Predertermination (you decide, but God knew what your decision would be before you made it) and Predestination (God decides before you are born)..  Predetermination is something like the "precrime" department in Minority Report.
 
2013-10-16 01:56:38 PM  

ciberido: grumpfuff: 2CountyFairs: Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".

He can know what choice you're going to make without forcing you to make it. Free will is completely compatible with an omniscient being, despite what amateur philosophers think.

In Christian theology, the distinction is between Predertermination (you decide, but God knew what your decision would be before you made it) and Predestination (God decides before you are born)..  Predetermination is something like the "precrime" department in Minority Report.


That's more or less what I meant. You just stated it better than I.
 
2013-10-16 02:47:47 PM  
Oh France, you're forgetting dogmatic law. Checkmate.
 
2013-10-16 02:49:10 PM  

Pocket Ninja: But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?


He made Mary. He then slept with another man's wife. So, yes.
 
2013-10-16 04:46:54 PM  

2CountyFairs: Now, can you explain yourselves in a way intended to change my mind on the subject, or will all your comments be ran through the asshole filter?


Any ability to change your mind is dependent on yourself but I will try not to be an asshole about it.

I made the brief comment I did because I had to leave for a meeting (I thought I was done with that crap when I retired but it barely slowed down).  It wasn't my intention to be nasty but to point out that your argument was illogical.

As to the goodness or not of God, we first have to decide if there is a god.  The argument that we cannot prove God's existence is, in my opinion, a false argument.  You cannot prove that God does NOT exist.  If you try to make an argument that God can't exist because a just God would not permit suffering permit evil, you are not disproving the existence of God, merely that God doesn't exist the way you would have designed him.

I believe that God exists precisely because no one can prove that he does not exist but also because admitting the existence of God allows us to explain the origin of the universe.  I'm not a fundamental creationist sort - I believe in evolution, I believe that carbon dating and fossils and other evidence points to a universe that is billions of years old and an earth that is over 4 billion years.  But no matter how far back one goes, no matter which theory is subscribed to, there is nothing that provides an answer to the origin of matter.  One primary function of religion is to explain the unexplainable.  No matter how many bosons and quarks we can discover (that were not even thought of when I was a kid), nobody can explain where they came from.  If we find sub-particles beyond them, what is the origin of them?  Without some uncaused cause, there is not a plausible explanation for our origin.

I choose to believe in God because that explains the difference between us and animals.  Animals have the capacity for kindness and caring only to perpetuate the survival of the species.  The only animals that seem to have a capacity for malice and evil are a very few domesticated animals - we were probably a bad influence.  We have the Constitution to govern our affairs.  The deer and the antelope have no need of one.  They merely respond to stimuli, we are capable of manipulating the stimuli.  That speaks to some kind of higher order of intelligence, coupled with morality (or lack thereof).  I find it impossible to believe that all of that is merely the result of chance or miraculous combination of random chemicals at precisely the right time and place.  In other words, I believe that humans have a soul and that is what distinguishes us from animals.

I can neither confirm or deny, nor do I spend a lot of time speculating on whether or not there are other planets in the universe with intelligent life; for all I know there may be several other universes.  But on our planet, in our solar system, humans are unique among all life forms.  I cannot help but believe that there is something higher than myself who at least had a hand in creating all of that.  In my opinion, refusing to believe in a god can only be the result of one thinking that he has all of the answers to the existence of the universe.  That seems terribly narcissistic.  I think it was Einstein (but I could be wrong) who said "Every new discovery uncovers hitherto untold realms of ignorance."

As to whether or not God is good, or omniscient or whether predestination or freewill rules, is, in my mind, trying to define God in a way that is not ours to do.  I believe that God is inherently good but that Evil also exists.  I believe that, cosmically, there is a continual struggle between good and evil, just as there is in the minds of most moral humans.  But without pain, we cannot enjoy pleasure;  without hunger we do not appreciate satiety; without fear we cannot know security - so too without evil we cannot recognize good.  I believe that we do have freewill and that God gives us that choice so that the choices remain alive.  I believe that God could vanquish Evil but if he did, there would be no need of him, just as there is no reason for Heaven if Hell does not exist.  Imagining a perfect world can only happen within the framework of imperfection.

Thus, in my opinion, God permits evil; he permits bad things to happen to good people, he permits people both individually and collectively (as in pollution of the planet) to make bad decisions precisely because without that there can be no appreciation for what is good and right.

The end of that belief is that the earth is not the end-all, be-all we would like it to be.  There may be hundreds of other planets with life forms not too dissimilar from our own.  There may be radically different life forms but all with a common element - the existence of good and evil.  Where God exercises his omniscience and omnipotence is not in this world but in the next.  Just as without evil we would not recognize good, so without Hell there would be no reason for Heaven.  And that is where God will sort it all out.  Without the travails of life, existence in heaven would be meaningless.  If one makes a conscious decision to engage in and perpetuate evil, with the full knowledge of the difference between that and good, he will have made his choice and God will exercise his prerogative to put him in Hell.  At least, that's what I believe.
 
2013-10-16 05:35:29 PM  

Literally Addicted: ciberido: "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."
Exodus 9:12 (New International Version)

Sorry, apparently I'm still working on the old international version, the buggy beta one.


Dude, we're already on version 3.0 of the Bible.
 
2013-10-16 05:38:32 PM  

grumpfuff: And I've ranted enough, because at this point I forget what the hell my original point was. So...yea.

/really should stop discussing religion on fark
//but how the hell else will I put my degrees to use


Well, I could really use another half-caff skinny macchiato.  I hear people with degrees in philosophy and religion are good at those.....
 
2013-10-16 05:50:51 PM  

ciberido: grumpfuff: And I've ranted enough, because at this point I forget what the hell my original point was. So...yea.

/really should stop discussing religion on fark
//but how the hell else will I put my degrees to use

Well, I could really use another half-caff skinny macchiato.  I hear people with degrees in philosophy and religion are good at those..


WTF is that?

/bartender
//moving to Europe next summer, has a teaching job starting Sept '14
 
2013-10-16 05:57:43 PM  

ciberido: Literally Addicted: ciberido: "But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses."
Exodus 9:12 (New International Version)

Sorry, apparently I'm still working on the old international version, the buggy beta one.

Dude, we're already on version 3.0 of the Bible.


I have the same problem with my iPods...I am always two generations behind.
 
2013-10-16 06:45:51 PM  

grumpfuff: ciberido: Well, I could really use another half-caff skinny macchiato.  I hear people with degrees in philosophy and religion are good at those..

WTF is that?

/bartender
//moving to Europe next summer, has a teaching job starting Sept '14


'Skinny; and 'half-caff" are terms used in Starbucks (and probably other coffee houses as well)

Macchiato is a beverage made from milk and espresso (caffè macchiato or latte macchiato, depending on the ratio).

Just make sure you prepare it correctly, or you will be punished (nsfw).

/Just making the usual joke about how people with advanced degrees in "soft" subjects like philosophy or religion end up working as baristas in coffee shops.
 
2013-10-16 06:49:57 PM  
ciberido:

/Just making the usual joke about how people with advanced degrees in "soft" subjects like philosophy or religion end up working as baristas in coffee shops.

Oh I know, no offense taken. I'm quite used to it. I used to be part of a group on Facebook(when I still used it) called "I majored in something I enjoy, and now I'll live in a box for the rest of my life."

As to the...macchiato..thing. I hate coffee, and I hate Starbucks. I couldn't work as a barista because the smell of coffee literally makes me want to vomit. So there's that.
 
2013-10-16 07:45:16 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: utah dude: matt 6 is awesome, first it says to avoid vain repetitions, then it dictates the vain repetition you should use to pray. wtf?

No, it gives the Lord's Prayer as an sample of the correct way to pray. "This then is how you should pray." It doesn't say anything about mindlessly parroting the actual prayer, but using it as a model of succinctness and thankfulness.

As with most scripture, the point is missed completely by the majority of modern practitioners.


i just Favorited you.
 
Displayed 26 of 76 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report