If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Slate)   France would like all you Catholics to know that Lord's Prayer you're all so fond of saying is actually a sordid screed of blasphemy   (slate.com) divider line 76
    More: Interesting, Lord's Prayer, Catholics, Christian theology, bibles  
•       •       •

9599 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Oct 2013 at 9:26 AM (40 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



76 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-10-16 09:01:48 AM
FTFA: This has long been controversial because of the possibility of interpreting it in a way that suggests God has the power to make people succumb to the temptation of sin -- contradicting most orthodox Christian theology which holds that He is infinitely and unchangeably good.

You know what's actually blasphemous, French bishops? The suggestion that God doesn't have the power to make people succumb to sin - the suggestion that God isn't all-powerful and omnipotent.

That's the blasphemy.
 
2013-10-16 09:03:35 AM
But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?
 
2013-10-16 09:06:30 AM
So is Catholicism.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-10-16 09:19:16 AM
Say it in Greek and avoid translation.
 
2013-10-16 09:25:02 AM
God. Microwave. Burrito. Too hot.
 
2013-10-16 09:27:29 AM

Pocket Ninja: But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?


HA
 
2013-10-16 09:29:26 AM
Dear god, don't know if you noticed, but your name is on a lot of quotes in this book, and us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look, and all the people that you made in your image still believing that junk is true...
 
2013-10-16 09:30:42 AM
Bullshiat.  One nation under God.  fark you, France!
 
2013-10-16 09:36:21 AM
Actually, I always found that line a little odd, but I assumed it was meant in a general sense, as opposed to being directed at god.  As in "let us not be tempted..."  not "please don't tempt us".
 
2013-10-16 09:36:53 AM
Why is it Americans hate the French so much? They helped the US gain independence and most of it's supposed ideals like democracy are derived from French ideas.

Is it 'cause they talk all funnylike, guhyuck?
 
2013-10-16 09:37:12 AM

Pocket Ninja: But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?


The hubris of demanding worship as a perfect entity?
 
2013-10-16 09:37:59 AM
Sounds like they need to go and read about Job again.
 
2013-10-16 09:38:05 AM
I keep hearing that God is good and infallible. God can't be good and infallible.

Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.

Three choices, I should say:

3. God doesn't exist.

RexTalionis: FTFA: This has long been controversial because of the possibility of interpreting it in a way that suggests God has the power to make people succumb to the temptation of sin -- contradicting most orthodox Christian theology which holds that He is infinitely and unchangeably good.

You know what's actually blasphemous, French bishops? The suggestion that God doesn't have the power to make people succumb to sin - the suggestion that God isn't all-powerful and omnipotent.

That's the blasphemy.


So in the original text, the French were asking God to follow Wil Wheaton's "dont be a dick" philosophy.
 
2013-10-16 09:43:51 AM
If Wil Wheaton turns out to be part of heaven's grand design, I will be miffed. Seriously miffed.
 
2013-10-16 09:43:55 AM

Literally Addicted: Actually, I always found that line a little odd, but I assumed it was meant in a general sense, as opposed to being directed at god.  As in "let us not be tempted..."  not "please don't tempt us".


The problem is the translation of "peirasmos", which could mean "temptation" but could also just as commonly mean "test". However, somebody, a VERY long time ago, decided that the Latin for "peirasmos" was "tentationem", which means "temptation" in Latin, but it also means "trial" or "proof" (as in "prove yourself"). Okay, no problem, original meaning essentially kept from Greek to Latin. But the meaning of the words descended from the Latin "tentationem" changed to only mean what we mean when we say "temptation". Translations were not updated to keep up with changes in language, so we are left with an archaism that gives embarrassment to the devout and delight to the childish.
 
2013-10-16 09:44:09 AM
This just in:

Some people interpret mythology different than others.

More at 11.
 
2013-10-16 09:46:43 AM

RexTalionis: FTFA: This has long been controversial because of the possibility of interpreting it in a way that suggests God has the power to make people succumb to the temptation of sin -- contradicting most orthodox Christian theology which holds that He is infinitely and unchangeably good.

You know what's actually blasphemous, French bishops? The suggestion that God doesn't have the power to make people succumb to sin - the suggestion that God isn't all-powerful and omnipotent.

That's the blasphemy.


The part you underlined is not a quote from a bishop. In fact, there is not a quote from a bishop, French or otherwise, in the entire article-about-another-article. Perhaps a bishop would not have chosen the word "power," maybe, "Catholic theology states that God is infinitely good, and He would not force people to succumb to temptation." All that's really there is a sentence from a quick article from Agence France-Presse that doesn't even rate a by-line.
 
2013-10-16 09:48:19 AM
This is one thing that the Neo-Charismatics (Fundies without the baggage of the old Pentecostal churches) get right. They won't say "The Lord's Prayer" in church and encourage their members to not say it in private prayers. Not necessarily because of any supposed blasphemy but because when Jesus said it, He was not telling his followers WHAT to pray but teaching them HOW to pray:

Praise for God
Submission to His will
Ask for needs
Ask for forgiveness and deliverance

Prayers delivered by rote are not actual prayers, and won't be heard by God

//I can't believe how much i remember from that church even though I escaped 20 years ago.
 
2013-10-16 09:48:47 AM
well wasn't it God who originally tempts Adam and Eve when he told them Not to eat from the tree ?

Its like telling someone not to push the red button.
 
2013-10-16 09:50:09 AM

here to help: Why is it Americans hate the French so much? They helped the US gain independence


They did fight a war to exterminate the colonies only 12 years before the Revolution...
 
2013-10-16 09:50:10 AM
Translation "errors" are rife in the Bible, in many cases because the original Hebrew doesn't translate strictly into English.  My favorite bit: the very first word in the Bible,  b'reishiat is usually translated "In the beginning", but in the Hebrew the definite article "the" is only implied. I've heard biblical scholars comment that "In a beginning" would also be accurate, but this is a major difference in meaning.   I liked Robert Alter's translation of Genesis where he has the first line as "When God began to create heaven and earth", even though this is probably less perfectly accurate.

/One of the folks who works here is happy to talk to door to door missionaries about the Bible, provided they discuss the original Greek version.
 
2013-10-16 09:50:59 AM

2CountyFairs: I keep hearing that God is good and infallible. God can't be good and infallible.

Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.

Three choices, I should say:

3. God doesn't exist.


You are so clever. Amazing. How do you do that? Aquinas and Augustine would like to learn from your infinite wisdom.
 
2013-10-16 09:54:02 AM
Oh boy, here comes another round of Cathar killings.
 
2013-10-16 09:54:14 AM

Silly_Sot: The problem is the translation of "peirasmos", which could mean "temptation" but could also just as commonly mean "test". However, somebody, a VERY long time ago, decided that the Latin for "peirasmos" was "tentationem", which means "temptation" in Latin, but it also means "trial" or "proof" (as in "prove yourself"). Okay, no problem, original meaning essentially kept from Greek to Latin. But the meaning of the words descended from the Latin "tentationem" changed to only mean what we mean when we say "temptation". Translations were not updated to keep up with changes in language, so we are left with an archaism that gives embarrassment to the devout and delight to the childish.


I don't think the confusion lies between the difference of "temptation" or "trial"...they're pretty synonomous in any language...it was in the interpretation of the phrasing.  In a prayer to god, "lead us not into temptation" was being considered as a literal request in the prayer, as opposed to the general beseeching not be tempted.
 
2013-10-16 09:56:23 AM

catmandu: Neo-Charismatics (Fundies without the baggage of the old Pentecostal churches)


My grandmother was a Charismatic.  Grandpa called them "crazy-matics".
 
2013-10-16 09:56:25 AM
www.godsboard.com
 
2013-10-16 09:58:29 AM
oh no!!! say it ain't so!!! a man made book of fiction EDITED BY MAN!!!!!
 
2013-10-16 09:58:36 AM

Pocket Ninja: But could God great a sin so tempting that not even he could resist it?



Like tapping some hot Israeli jailbait poontang?

/ only once, and we'll never hear the end of it.
 
2013-10-16 09:59:21 AM
WHY THE F--K DON'T I LEARN NOT TO CLICK ON SLATE LINKS.

Jesus.  I know Ratzinger changed the wording of it too (or I think so anyway, there were a lot of annoying changes that make it harder for me to blend in on Ash Wednesday when I actually still go to church), but in English it was always "lead us not into temptation", which IMHO is smack inbetween "Do not submit us to temptation." and "Let us not enter into temptation."

And it's the version in place since all of Vatican II apparently so whatever.  It's just comforting to see that even with the new Pope and his continued pleas to get sh-t done to make the world a better place we still have folks fighting over dogma and translation choices.  It's comforting, almost sort of a continuity.
 
2013-10-16 09:59:36 AM
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of karate,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
 
2013-10-16 10:00:09 AM

here to help: Why is it Americans hate the French so much? They helped the US gain independence and most of it's supposed ideals like democracy are derived from French ideas.

Is it 'cause they talk all funnylike, guhyuck?


I think it's mostly because we wound up fighting two wars in France and one in Vietnam because they were losing, and Parisian waiters are rude. Also, the French Revolution was sparked by the American Revolution, not the other way around. Rousseau and Descartes were influential, but no more than Thomas Paine or John Locke.
 
2013-10-16 10:00:40 AM

TheWhoppah: [www.godsboard.com image 600x250]


This made me laugh.

Great, now I'm going to hell.  Someone save me a fireside table, will ya?
 
2013-10-16 10:04:12 AM

ZAZ: Say it in Greek and avoid translation.



'Cept He likely said it in Aramaic or Hebrew . . .  .


/ translation-ception.
 
2013-10-16 10:04:40 AM

here to help: Is it 'cause they talk all funnylike, guhyuck?


It's like they have a different word for everything.
 
2013-10-16 10:07:17 AM
Interesting that the Catholics changed many of their prayers recently to reflect a more accurate translation -- but skipped the Lord's Prayer. Maybe this new liberal Pope will get up to speed.

/"liberal", at least compared to other recent Popes.
 
2013-10-16 10:07:35 AM

Boba Chet: Bullshiat.  One nation under God.  fark you, France!


Funny thing; turns out that "one nation"?

Lichtenstein.

Who knew?
 
2013-10-16 10:09:10 AM

Silly_Sot: Literally Addicted: Actually, I always found that line a little odd, but I assumed it was meant in a general sense, as opposed to being directed at god.  As in "let us not be tempted..."  not "please don't tempt us".

The problem is the translation of "peirasmos", which could mean "temptation" but could also just as commonly mean "test". However, somebody, a VERY long time ago, decided that the Latin for "peirasmos" was "tentationem", which means "temptation" in Latin, but it also means "trial" or "proof" (as in "prove yourself"). Okay, no problem, original meaning essentially kept from Greek to Latin. But the meaning of the words descended from the Latin "tentationem" changed to only mean what we mean when we say "temptation". Translations were not updated to keep up with changes in language, so we are left with an archaism that gives embarrassment to the devout and delight to the childish.


Right.  It's a synonym for "jihad."  :)
 
2013-10-16 10:10:22 AM
What's next French bishops, a new series of anti-popes setting up court in Avignon?
 
2013-10-16 10:13:32 AM
Ahh yes. When I need true spiritual guidance, huffpo & slate are where I go.
 
2013-10-16 10:14:36 AM

Old_Chief_Scott: here to help: Is it 'cause they talk all funnylike, guhyuck?

It's like they have a different word for everything.


One of my favorite Steve Martin routines of all time...
 
2013-10-16 10:19:10 AM

2CountyFairs: Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.


You either failed your logic class or never took it.  Goodness and infallibility are not related, nor are they complementary.

If you start with a false premise and proceed illogically, you will end up with an erroneous conclusion.
 
2013-10-16 10:24:30 AM
matt 6 is awesome, first it says to avoid vain repetitions, then it dictates the vain repetition you should use to pray. wtf?
 
2013-10-16 10:33:33 AM

utah dude: matt 6 is awesome, first it says to avoid vain repetitions, then it dictates the vain repetition you should use to pray. wtf?


No, it gives the Lord's Prayer as an sample of the correct way to pray. "This then is how you should pray." It doesn't say anything about mindlessly parroting the actual prayer, but using it as a model of succinctness and thankfulness.

As with most scripture, the point is missed completely by the majority of modern practitioners.
 
2013-10-16 10:34:13 AM
they need it translated into english...like it was written in !!!
 
2013-10-16 10:37:30 AM
In Quebec all of the French swear words come from the Bible. (Host, Tabernacle, Chalice)

Attending Catholic Mass in Quebec is one big swearfest.
 
2013-10-16 10:39:01 AM
And Jesus said, pray  notas the heathen do, repeating the same prayer over and over...(Matthew 6:7)
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-10-16 10:50:27 AM
maxx2112

I looked up the origin before posting. The oldest written record of what became the Lord's Prayer is in Greek. According to Wikipedia, at least one of the gospels was probably written originally in Greek rather than being a later translation.  Probably Jesus and company did not talk Greek among themselves, but we can only speculate as to the exact words they used.
 
2013-10-16 10:55:39 AM

poorcku: 2CountyFairs: I keep hearing that God is good and infallible. God can't be good and infallible.

Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.

Three choices, I should say:

3. God doesn't exist.

You are so clever. Amazing. How do you do that? Aquinas and Augustine would like to learn from your infinite wisdom.


Mr. Right: 2CountyFairs: Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.

You either failed your logic class or never took it.  Goodness and infallibility are not related, nor are they complementary.

If you start with a false premise and proceed illogically, you will end up with an erroneous conclusion.


Should I have started with "I'm a non-practicing Catholic, and this thought occurred to me"? Probably. But look, simply saying "You're wrong! Neener, neener!" is a not a very good argument. I'd say that, in my opinion, when we are talking about an all-powerful being, logic breaks down a bit (because to me, the logical argument is that there is no God because of the complete lack of evidence. I mean, isn't the logical assumption that if there is zero evidence supporting a claim, then that claim is false?). But, if God is all-powerful, then he has the power to stop evil things from happening. Or even has the power to stop evil from existing in the first place. He either made a mistake by letting bad things happen (so not infallible) but is still "good". Or, he did it all on purpose for his grand design, which can be considered "not so good". Now, can you explain yourselves in a way intended to change my mind on the subject, or will all your comments be ran through the asshole filter?

Another idea that popped into my head. In a sense, predestination is true and free will is an illusion. If God is truly all-knowing, then the moment a person is born, God knows every choice that person is going to make. In that sense, your life choices have already been made for you are your fate is already determined. This assumes "all-knowing" also applies to future events. I interpret it as such because if you don't know the future, then you aren't "all-knowing".
 
2013-10-16 10:56:53 AM
Lol.

Pray to Mary, go to hell!


They left THAT one out of the article.
 
2013-10-16 10:58:22 AM

2CountyFairs: I keep hearing that God is good and infallible. God can't be good and infallible.

Two choices:

1. God is good, but not infallible. There's just too much evil out there for him to have not made a mistake or two, but he's really good in the grand scheme of things.

-or-

2. God is infallible, and all the bad shiat that has ever happened was done by him on purpose. So that means he's not always that good.

Three choices, I should say:

3. God doesn't exist.



4. Free will.

There are much better arguments against god than the problem of evil.

Dawkins, despite what he thinks, does not have a good understanding of philosophy of religion.

/atheist
 
Displayed 50 of 76 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report