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(Opposing Views)   Religious school suspends student after he grows his facial hair out for religious reasons   (opposingviews.com) divider line 76
    More: Strange, Muslims, time use research, Mount Carmel, students  
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5708 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2013 at 9:33 PM (38 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-15 10:40:12 PM
God-is-a-Taco:

Heh. Native English wanting to uphold their own values of standards in their country. What foolishness.
I'm glad their privilege was checked; immigrants shouldn't be expected to adapt to the host country, especially at private schools.


Um, It wasn't until ~200 years ago that anybody was allowed to be Roman Catholic in Britain. England only allowed Papistry to revive because the mines, mills and factories needed the cheap labor of Irish Catholic immigrants. And how better to control the masses than with bullshiat?

I've got bacon frying so you'll have to look it up yourself.
 
2013-10-15 10:50:01 PM

dennysgod: The Muslim practice of not shaving derives from the same Abrahamic laws that Christians are supposed to follow so I don't see what the big deal is.


Apparently Jeebus said that Christians can ignore all that "Old Testament" stuff? Except for hating gays apparently. It's all fairly confusing and often requires heroic levels of cognitive dissonance to wrap your head around the metaphysics of Abrahamic religions.

See also:  http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-diagnosed-with-bipolar-disorder, 3 48/
 
2013-10-15 10:56:07 PM

sprgrss: The EU Convention on human rights is incredibly stupid if a private school has to allow religious exceptions to its universally applicable dress code.  I'm all for religious freedom, but this is taking it too far.


And yet lots of people demand we adopt similar language here and say those warning against it are just fear-mongering.
 
2013-10-15 10:56:17 PM

doglover: Muslim Student Banned From Catholic School

Seems reasonable. If you want to go to Catholic school: you should at least pretend to be Catholic. Otherwise, go to a public school or a religious school run for you particular flavor of boring Monotheist religion.


In America that sounds like it'd be the United Methodist Church, or maybe the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Catholics and Born Agains are too kinky to be totally boring.

That the Trinity ain't really monotheist is also sort of relevant. But probably not directly pertinent to TFA, except for the Quran chapter 4 verse 171 which reads:

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
 
2013-10-15 10:58:29 PM

fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. And why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place?

I have been Atheist since 14 and my family is Lutheran, but I went to Catholic school.
/There was even one Jewish guy there.
 
2013-10-15 11:03:23 PM

DebinCO: Kid is 14, and he can grow a full beard????


My cousin use to buy us beer when he was 15.
 
2013-10-15 11:12:02 PM
They obviously don't know your scripture very well.

Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.
 
2013-10-15 11:23:11 PM

Marcus Aurelius: He was trying to lose his religion, perhaps?


Then why didn't he shave?
 
2013-10-15 11:37:33 PM

dennysgod: fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. And why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??

It's actually quite common for 2 main reasons. First, on average, private schools offer better education and since most private schools are affiliated with the Christian faith, you don't have much of a choice. Secondly good luck trying to open up a Muslim only private school in post 9/11 America.


School is in England.
 
2013-10-15 11:38:54 PM

Tyrosine: dennysgod: The Muslim practice of not shaving derives from the same Abrahamic laws that Christians are supposed to follow so I don't see what the big deal is.

Apparently Jeebus said that Christians can ignore all that "Old Testament" stuff?Except for hating gays apparently. It's all fairly confusing and often requires heroic levels of cognitive dissonance to wrap your head around the metaphysics of Abrahamic religions.

See also:  http://www.theonion.com/articles/god-diagnosed-with-bipolar-disorder, 3 48/


Fun fact: Jesus himself claimed that his followers had to follow the rules of Leviticus. Remember, Jesus was a Jew.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Have fun with that next time someone wearing polyester with a tattoo quotes Leviticus about teh gehys.
 
2013-10-15 11:44:43 PM

fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. And why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??


Where I grew up the catholic schools were consistently the strongest schools for college prep. They attracted many non-catholic students.

We had a dress code-- business casual for the most part. Facial hair was prohibited.
 
2013-10-15 11:56:42 PM

fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. And why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??


In the US, yes.  But maybe the rules are different in England where this story takes place.

The One True TheDavid: From the Huffpo:

"Governors have taken the decision to only allow Muslim boys permission to grow a beard as a sign of their faith as long as they have started the Hafiz programme at a mosque."

The programme teaches five to 16-year-olds how to "memorise and review" the Quran.


In other words, they'd have to memorize the whole Quran, after which they'd be expected to know it backwards and forwards, and recite anything from it at the drop of a hat.

I doubt any U.S. Senator ever memorized the whole Constitution.


What's a story that takes place in ENGLAND have to do with U.S. Senators?

Sheesh, I know this is fark but read the farking article, people.
 
2013-10-16 12:27:16 AM
Pretty much every mosque has a hafiz recite the Qur'an during Ramadan (a part each night). It's pretty amazing these people who can recite, and understand the meaning of, an entire religious text.

During my 30 years as a Christian, I never knew anyone who knew the Bible in such a way.

That being said, you don't need to be a hafiz to be dedicated to Islam.
 
2013-10-16 12:32:33 AM
mekki:

The One True TheDavid: From the Huffpo:

"Governors have taken the decision to only allow Muslim boys permission to grow a beard as a sign of their faith as long as they have started the Hafiz programme at a mosque."

The programme teaches five to 16-year-olds how to "memorise and review" the Quran.


In other words, they'd have to memorize the whole Quran, after which they'd be expected to know it backwards and forwards, and recite anything from it at the drop of a hat.

I doubt any U.S. Senator ever memorized the whole Constitution.

What's a story that takes place in ENGLAND have to do with U.S. Senators?


You miss a lot, don't you. I was comparing phenomenon of a Muslim becoming in effect a living Quran with the fact that a lot of US Senators (e.g.) blab avbout the Constitution but don't seem to know much about it. See, some people claim that a document is important and memorize it entirely, though whether they understand it deeply is irrelevant; others claim a document is important but natter on like they've never even seen a photo of it. Which is better is open to dispute, though the US Constitution should be easier to memorize and to understand because it's shorter and it's written in fairly up-to-date American English, as opposed to the Quran which is written in a version of Arabic that nobody speaks as a mother tongue today if indeed they ever did.

As to what my real point was, well, I'll leave that up to a genuine pedant to decipher. What seems brilliant with a low BAC becomes more confusing as the drinking wears on.


Sheesh, I know this is fark but read the farking article, people.

I did. And an article that it linked to, and a Wikipedia article on Hafiz, and... I forget what else.

I should brush my teeth while I can still stand up. G'night!
 
2013-10-16 12:33:45 AM
EmmaLou:

[Y]ou don't need to be a hafiz to be dedicated to Islam.

And you don't need to be a 40 year old virgin to collect dolls.
 
2013-10-16 12:34:09 AM

EmmaLou: Pretty much every mosque has a hafiz recite the Qur'an during Ramadan (a part each night). It's pretty amazing these people who can recite, and understand the meaning of, an entire religious text.

During my 30 years as a Christian, I never knew anyone who knew the Bible in such a way.

That being said, you don't need to be a hafiz to be dedicated to Islam.


standupforthetruth.com

And now you do.
 
2013-10-16 12:35:24 AM

fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. BUT why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??


Came here to say this! I thought the same thing when I first read the original story. WTH??
 
2013-10-16 12:48:39 AM

Because People in power are Stupid: They obviously don't know your scripture very well.

Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.


Yeah, I don't get this.

NONE of the drawings/depictions of Jesus that I have seen (usually the blond fair skinned ones, mind you) show Jesus as clean shaved.
You'd think a school of such a faith would actually oppose shaving.

Still, this isn't as bad as the French government banning religious symbols in schools, such as crosses and pendants, but which also include the head shawl (hijab) which as posted above is common in all Abrahamic religions and is deemed necessary by the majority of Muslim scholars, unlike the other religious 'symbols' which are not mandatory.
Remember that next time you hear the French government talking about how Muslims are oppressing the girls and not giving them a chance at education. It was one of the talking points when they had riots in the ghettos over there.

Freedom of religion is not about being free FROM religion, it is about practicing your faith in the way you see fit and that doesn't encroach on others.

Oddly enough, I was talking about the French government with a friend yesterday and we both expected the situation to get worse before it got better.
You cannot oppress/inconvenience such a huge percentage of your people and expect nothing to happen.

/see also Minarets in Switzerland
//disclaimer, some of my info is dated, so if rules changed and I haven't heard about them let me know
///> bearded slashies
 
2013-10-16 12:48:57 AM

bratface: fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. BUT why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??

Came here to say this! I thought the same thing when I first read the original story. WTH??


Might be the best school around.  Plus, much of Christianity is overlapped into Islam.
 
2013-10-16 12:50:51 AM

The One True TheDavid: the Trinity ain't really monotheist


Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Your monotheism wouldn't have to metastasize back into polytheism if you'd skip the middle man and just go back to worshiping interesting deities, like Aphrodite and Thor.
 
2013-10-16 02:54:05 AM

fusillade762: The students attended the private Mount Carmel Roman Catholic high school

Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want. And why are Muslims going to a Catholic school in the first place??


I work in a Catholic school which has Muslim staff members.
In fact today, one of our RE classes visited the local mosque.
We also have at least one Buddhist, a grab bag of protestants and a side order of the atheistic folk.
The students are the same sort of mix.
The school is Catholic, but also quite catholic.
 
2013-10-16 03:51:29 AM

fusillade762: Private school. They can do whatever the hell they want.


If you read all the way to paragraph three you'll find that's actually not the case in the 47 signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights, which includes the United Kingdom.
 
2013-10-16 04:32:36 AM

Because People in power are Stupid: They obviously don't know your scripture very well.

Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.


Some Jews, such as the Karaites,  say that doesn't mean to not shave the face. To quote http://www.karaite-korner.org/shaving.shtml:

Thus when we are forbidden in Lev 19 and Dt 14 to "round the side of your head" and "place baldness between your eyes... for the dead" the meaning is that we may not shave our head or any part thereof as an act of mourning or sadness. There is no implication in the commandment in Lev 19 that we must grow side locks or pony tails. The only thing prohibited in Lev 19:27a is to shave the side of the head as an act of mourning. Were one to shave their head for stylistic reasons their would be no prohibition whatsoever.
[...]

In summation, Lev 19:27-28, Lev 21:4-5, Dt 14:1-2 prohibit 4 different acts of mourning. These are:

1) Making a bald spot on the head as an act of mourning
2) Shaving the beard as an act of mourning
3) Cutting the skin as an act of mourning
4) Writing on the skin as an act of mourning
[...]

The Karaite argument is basically that the "Oral Torah," "613 Commandments," strapping tefillin to yourself, "building a fence around the Torah," etc., are made-up Rabbinical ("Orthodox") impositions to justify domination of Jews by rabbis, i.e. a particular kind of intellectual. Off the top of my head an analogy to rabbi rule is the Leninist claim that dictatorship by their party is necessary for socialism and that any other form of political organization can't be "orthodox."

For more info see the the Karaite Korner site (<- link).
 
2013-10-16 04:47:01 AM
By the way, there's nothing in the Koran that says you have to grow a beard. They do it because they say it was what Muhammad did, his "sunnah," and that a Muslim should imitate Muhammad in every way possible. (Theoretically if he were cross-eyed they'd be told to cross theirs.)

And the Quranic position on "Orthodox" Judaism is that all those rules and taboos are examples of God punishing the Jews for making shiat up (like the "613 commandments") and for refusing to follow God's real orders so often (e.g., worshipping the Golden Calf and/or Ba'al). Muslim scholars say all the Jews have to do to be free of all that is convert to Islam, or as they see it to stop being a divisive and wrong-headed sect of splitters and practice the One True Religion like they say to.
 
2013-10-16 09:02:21 AM

Resident Muslim: Because People in power are Stupid: They obviously don't know your scripture very well.

Leviticus 19:27
You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard.

Yeah, I don't get this.

NONE of the drawings/depictions of Jesus that I have seen (usually the blond fair skinned ones, mind you) show Jesus as clean shaved.
You'd think a school of such a faith would actually oppose shaving.


See: Christians thinking they get to pick and choose what parts of Leviticus they have to follow
 
2013-10-16 02:17:28 PM

The One True TheDavid: By the way, there's nothing in the Koran that says you have to grow a beard. They do it because they say it was what Muhammad did, his "sunnah," and that a Muslim should imitate Muhammad in every way possible. (Theoretically if he were cross-eyed they'd be told to cross theirs.)

And the Quranic position on "Orthodox" Judaism is that all those rules and taboos are examples of God punishing the Jews for making shiat up (like the "613 commandments") and for refusing to follow God's real orders so often (e.g., worshipping the Golden Calf and/or Ba'al). Muslim scholars say all the Jews have to do to be free of all that is convert to Islam, or as they see it to stop being a divisive and wrong-headed sect of splitters and practice the One True Religion like they say to.


For a person so knowledgable, I just wanted to clarify that sunnah is not as simple as that.
Sunnah is made up of the words and actions of the prophet peace be upon him.
Some words explain how the five prayers are done, what is said etc. this makes up parts of the obligatory actions.
Then you have the things that he said and did that you get 'extra credit' for doing, and not punished if you forego them. These can be additional prayers over and above the five, certain recitations of prayers etc.
Then you have things that the prophet did and people copy just out love for him.

The beard actually falls under the part of there being clear instructions to do, with scholars disagreeing on whether that instruction is obligatory or for added Ajr (the opposite of sin, think credit).
It isn't simply a thing he did and people copy him. If I am not mistaken, wearing 'traditional' clothes is something that DOES fall under that realm, where there is no clear instruction from him to wear any particular set I clothing.

As for the Quran being an Arabic that nobody speaks as a mother tongue, that is really out of place.
If you are interested in that language and visit any Arab country, you'll find that it is the same language taught in schools.
If you do ask Arabic speakers about most verses, they can tell you what it means. There are words though that do stump the average (Joe) Abdullah.
This is not to say there aren't local dialects, to the point of making learning the language difficult if the person teaching you is giving you a spoken version of a local dialect vs proper Arabic.
Most cartoons are in proper Arabic by the way, and make for a fun way to learn the language.
:)
 
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