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(Talking Points Memo)   Senate GOP: Simmer down, we found a way out of this mess. House GOP: Well, then we'll just issue another counter offer with attacks on Obamacare then. HA   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 644
    More: News, GOP, White House, obamacare, Senate, Boehner, Charlie Dent, David Vitter  
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10689 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2013 at 10:53 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-15 02:09:56 PM

George Babbitt: Why isn't anybody addressing the fact that the healthcare industry is the crook here?


The ACA adresses that issue in about a half dozen solid ways. But they are boring little things. Like putting in place minimum plan definitions to make insurers offer equivalent products that can be compared apples to apples. Or requiring insurance spends a minimum percentage of premium collected on healthcare so their lawyers can't be a profit center. Or measures to combat Medicare fraud (estimated to return $17 in savings for every $1 spent in increased enforcement). Or electronic medical records, or coordinated care initiatives, or funding pilot cost containment programs, or penalties for readmissions costs (if a hospital farks up a procedure, they don't get paid/profit again fixing their error)...

And no one is still reading, which is why nobody is reporting on the measures taken to reign in the healthcare industry costs.
 
2013-10-15 02:11:10 PM

Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.


Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?
 
2013-10-15 02:11:41 PM

Heliovdrake: The US government is not in the business of negotiating with extortionists.

The ACA WAS a compromise. It was voted into law by congress.

The people supported it in not ONE but TWO National Elections where it was a major issue each time.

The Supreme court upheld its legality.

The GOP failed to repeal it 42+ times.

And now the GoP and Its Teahadist wing are going to crash not only our economy, but potentially the world's.

The Adults on the world stage know this, the adults in the US know this. Even the GOP knows this, by how hard they are trying to pin it on the democrat party and the President,

YOU LOST.YOU GET NOTHING.ITS RIGHT THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!YOU LOSE!GOOD DAY SIR.


And they are going to blame it all on Obama.
 
2013-10-15 02:12:02 PM

Clutch2013: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Jesus Christ.

They need to air this shiat all over the networks, then have FBI agents waiting at all their houses.


i106.photobucket.com
 
2013-10-15 02:12:35 PM

George Babbitt: TNel: Doing what?

You're being bandied back and forth between insurance company and government. You currently are thinking the government will fix this. Some think the insurance will fix this. Why isn't anybody addressing the fact that the healthcare industry is the crook here? And we are kept distracted thinking that the way to fix this is throw money at the healthcare industry, only disagreeing on who should pay for it.


Everybody already knows that the healthcare industry is the crook.  Currently we are at the point of getting everyone healthcare to try and make it so they can't use the "ER excuse" for why their prices are so high.  Again what's your position?  What do you think will fix this?  You seem to be complaing alot without saying how to fix it.
 
2013-10-15 02:13:08 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?


Why wouldn't he be able to do that?
 
2013-10-15 02:13:20 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Some people might not think that paying 5400 dollars, just for the privilege of paying for the next 8000 dollars before benefits kick in, to be a a great deal.   I guess if you routinely have 15,000 of medical expenses, it might be good.


There's an extra dimension to this: PPO network pricing. Because of it, an infinite-deductible plan would even have some value.

Among the health care industry's myriad market failures is a lack of pricing transparency or consistency. Insurers control costs through network contracts - if you see a network provider, they've contracted to accept a reasonable-ish rate for the procedure. Without that, they can and will literally bill you for any arbitrary amount.

Never, ever go out of network (this implies never pay cash either), the cost is often 5x as much. (I've personally had the 5x happen).
 
2013-10-15 02:14:37 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."


From your link"Timing is very important here. They're going to be more motivated to take this up. Otherwise, they miss the Thursday deadline."

Sure, jackass, THEY are the people that would miss the deadline.  The public certainly wouldn't turn on the people who deliberately LEFT TOWN to avoid a vote.

namegoeshere: Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.


I don't think it does.  Not being there doesn't require that the other party vote a particular way.  They aren't threatening to release damaging information in exchange for a vote they want, or threatening loved ones.  They are simply using time to add political pressure.  It's a dick move, and it will play poorly in the press, but it isn't an application of force.
 
2013-10-15 02:16:05 PM

Infernalist: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?

Why wouldn't he be able to do that?


I'm not sure, but it just doesn't compute for me.  For example, could Obama have sent a draft of the ACA to Roberts before Congress passed it for a 'ballpark opinion'?

/not arguing, genuinely curious
 
2013-10-15 02:16:26 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?


I assume he'd have to discuss with with his AG
 
2013-10-15 02:16:37 PM

George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: Thinks $450 to insure a family of 6 is too much

Just because you've all been duped into thinking that healthcare needs to cost a lot of money and all we have to do is figure out how to come up with lots of money is the bigger problem here. And by we, I mean you, me and the all the other people that add to that pile of money to make it affordable, for as we know, healthcare is not affordable, because if it was, we wouldn't need the Affordable Care Act. We're being bandied back and forth between the insurance companies and the government while the healthcare industry rakes it in.

What the fark are you talking about? $450/month to cover 6 people isn't a lot of money. That's $900 per person for the entire year. ($450x12months=$5400/year; $5400/6 people=$900)

$450/month x 12 months = $5400 + the amount of money that is required to fully fund that plan, i.e. subsidies(where does that come from?)-->$5000 for a grand total of $10,400/year; $10,400/6 people = $1,733 per person/year.

Still cheap. Very, very cheap.

Not if you figure in the very fine point made about the fact that you still ~$5000 of deductible/person to contend with each year.


The US currently forks out $8608 per person for health care. $6733 would be an improvement of almost 22%. Of course, the UK only spends $3600, and Canada $5630.
 
2013-10-15 02:19:13 PM

KellyX: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?

I assume he'd have to discuss with with his AG


I don't believe he can just have personal pow wows with the SC to figure out if shiat is legal prior to trying to do it, that's what his legal team and AG are for. I believe the SC is supposed to be isolated to some degree and if shiat is brought to him in court, then they can decide to rule on it or not.
 
2013-10-15 02:19:58 PM

TNel: George Babbitt: And by we, I mean you, me and the all the other people that add to that pile of money to make it affordable, for as we know, healthcare is not affordable, because if it was, we wouldn't need the Affordable Care Act. We're being bandied back and forth between the insurance companies and the government while the healthcare industry rakes it in.

So let's use the Republicans plan for healthcare..... could you please let me know what that is because I am failing to find any plan other than Romney's "We have a plan but we won't tell you what it is until you take away the ACA"


That's the joke, the ACA *is* the Republican's plan for healthcare.  You might know it as Romneycare, or the plan floated by the Heritage Foundation during the Clinton Administration.
 
2013-10-15 02:19:59 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?


I wouldn't bet on any of that happening anyway; imprisoning political opposition seems like a really bad road to go down.

It'd be cleaner for the President to just ignore the debt ceiling and have Treasury issue new bonds. If we hit the ceiling, the executive branch will have to break *some* law, it's not possible to follow them all. Might as well break just one law, and keep the world economy going in the process.
 
2013-10-15 02:20:55 PM
I wonder how this would have played out if the Dems asked for concessions as well.

For ACA you'll give us:
Mandatory background checks on gun purchases, magazine size limits, and a permanent assault rifle ban.
Abortion, free and clear, with the Federal statutes trumping all State statutes, including the implementation of FDA guidelines of Mifepristone, Misoprostol, et. al.
Immediate repeal of DOMA with gay marriage being the law of the land, again trumping all State statutes.

Now THAT would be a shiatstorm worth watching.
 
2013-10-15 02:21:58 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?

Why wouldn't he be able to do that?

I'm not sure, but it just doesn't compute for me.  For example, could Obama have sent a draft of the ACA to Roberts before Congress passed it for a 'ballpark opinion'?

/not arguing, genuinely curious


I can't imagine any reason why he wouldn't have done that before hand.

Having looked into it, it seems as if there's precedence.  George Washington approached the SC for legal advice in dealing with foreign powers, to deal with treaties and what have you.

Also, FDR was reported to have consulted with the SC on a number of issues including the New Deal.
 
2013-10-15 02:22:20 PM

Surpheon: electronic medical records


This is why my primary care physician retired early this year. He was great doc, spent half his time teaching interns and residents at the local hospital, but the time to do those records finished him.

The ACA adresses that issue in about a half dozen solid ways.

I was recently asked by someone what my take was on the ACA, and I told them I couldn't be sure what to believe as the tales being told from the entire spectrum were so difficult to reconcile to ever find consensus. I'm still not sure, and this thread has only made it worse/better.
 
2013-10-15 02:23:06 PM

Mike Chewbacca: he US currently forks out $8608 per person for health care. $6733 would be an improvement of almost 22%


I feel you, but that doesn't help.
 
2013-10-15 02:23:47 PM

Infernalist: Having looked into it, it seems as if there's precedence.  George Washington approached the SC for legal advice in dealing with foreign powers, to deal with treaties and what have you.

Also, FDR was reported to have consulted with the SC on a number of issues including the New Deal.


If there's precedents then why not... It'd be funny hearing info leaked from one of the conservative judges to the GOP that Obama was on the verge of issuing warrants for their arrests to see how they'd react then.
 
2013-10-15 02:26:40 PM

George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: he US currently forks out $8608 per person for health care. $6733 would be an improvement of almost 22%

I feel you, but that doesn't help.


So a 22% reduction in costs doesn't help? WTF?
 
2013-10-15 02:27:50 PM

George Babbitt: Surpheon: electronic medical records

This is why my primary care physician retired early this year. He was great doc, spent half his time teaching interns and residents at the local hospital, but the time to do those records finished him.

The ACA adresses that issue in about a half dozen solid ways.

I was recently asked by someone what my take was on the ACA, and I told them I couldn't be sure what to believe as the tales being told from the entire spectrum were so difficult to reconcile to ever find consensus. I'm still not sure, and this thread has only made it worse/better.


theincidentaleconomist.com - the best source anywhere for health policy.

They're very reality-based and data-driven. They tend to give Republican ideas a thorough, fair, non-strawmanned airing, before demolishing them with facts.

Their FAQ links an excellent series of posts picking apart where the excess expenses in US health care are. Short version: everywhere.
 
2013-10-15 02:28:23 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Heliovdrake: make me some tea: So, basically they are going to monkey around with the funding for ACA, turning a fully funded system into a partially funded system. WINNING

They are very worried that the ACA will work, and people will like it.

Exactly. I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but I was able to utilize the WA exchange and find insurance that was better than the insurance we'd had to buy on our own last year that was $500 cheaper each month. Better insurance. Lower deductibles. No copays (versus $40 copays). $500 cheaper per month. And even though we're solidly middle class making more than the median yearly income, we'd get a subsidy to help us pay for the insurance (which is why it was $500 cheaper and not $350).

Please note that we moved to a smaller apartment to help pay for the insurance we had to buy on our own for 10 months. If we'd had access to the exchanges, we wouldn't have had to do that. Part of why we moved is we were on COBRA for a few months while Regence slowly, slowly processed our application. Took them 3 months and they made us pay for November even though we hadn't used any services and they hadn't approved our application until December. It was pay for November (on top of paying COBRA in November) or go through the process all over again and hope it doesn't take another 3 months. So they got $780 from us for nothing, plus we paid $1200 for COBRA. Nothing quite like spending $2000 for one month of health insurance when all you did was buy 3 generic prescriptions.

Meanwhile, retards keep telling me that Obamacare will be more expensive for people they know. The only thing I can imagine is those people they know are either lying, mistaken, or have such shiatty insurance that it doesn't count as actual insurance.


The moment the ACA looked like it was a go the insurance companies started hiking up their rates and hacking up the plans to reach the bare minimum required by law.  Yes it helped some people but basically pulled the whole system down a notch to meet them there.

You really don't need anecdotal evidence when you have dozens of insurance companies stocks posting record gains year over year after the ACA.

And 500+ a month for health insurance is simply not sustainable no matter who is footing the bill.
 
2013-10-15 02:35:46 PM

TNel: Everybody already knows that the healthcare industry is the crook.  Currently we are at the point of getting everyone healthcare to try and make it so they can't use the "ER excuse" for why their prices are so high.  Again what's your position? What do you think will fix this?  You seem to be complaining a lot without saying how to fix it.


Um...shoot em' all? I don't know, you think answers come in Fark threads? My right to do so.

/The biggest and fanciest new construction in this city I live in, Columbus, Ohio, are the Medical Center(the name doesn't do it justice) at OSU, the Nationwide Children's Hospital(a gleaming jewel of the city), Riverside Methodist Hospital which is doubling in size again, especially with the recent addition of the McConnel Heart Health Center which has acres of wooded walking trails behind it. My wife's OBGYN moved which hospital he delivers out of to Dublin Methodist, so our insurance allowed us to follow him, a place that looks and feels more like a celebrity rehab/spa.
//I don't have answers, but I see who has the money
 
2013-10-15 02:36:04 PM

Mike Chewbacca: George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: he US currently forks out $8608 per person for health care. $6733 would be an improvement of almost 22%

I feel you, but that doesn't help.

So a 22% reduction in costs doesn't help? WTF?


One thing a lot of "rate shock" folks miss is comparing unsubsidized vs. subsidized plan costs. In some places (I know at least Indiana is among them), the "gold" exchange plan, before subsidies, costs less than the average employer-sponsored plan (before employer contribution - aka the "COBRA" cost).

That is, a lot of people think they pay $100 a month for employer-sponsored coverage, when that's just the cost deducted from their paycheck, and the full cost of the plan is probably closer to $700 a month. One of the minor bits from ACA has employers reporting the amount they kick in to the plans (to administer the 'Cadillac tax' IIRC), so people can also see the full cost.

Numbers from myself: In 2011 I had a nice family plan, 90/10 PPO, low deductibles, $1500/month. (And I paid that full cost after being laid off, because with pre-existing conditions there are no other options). Then I had a contract job with an 80/20 PPO, $750/$1500 deductible, $1300/month (though the employer paid 50% of my cost, none of the spouse/kids). Then a different contract job with a similar plan that was $1000/month, employer paid 0. Now a regular employee, 90/10 PPO, $1500/$3000 deductible, $250/month from paycheck, full cost unknown.
 
2013-10-15 02:36:52 PM

George Babbitt: Not if you figure in the very fine point made about the fact that you still ~$5000 of deductible/person to contend with each year.


A) A lot of insurances have a high deductible and
B) How many people pay the entire deductible each year? and
C) The deductible doesn't apply to all expenses (i.e. doctor's visits)
 
2013-10-15 02:37:17 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."


If they do that, Obama should immediately hold a press conference and announce he is using his power under Article II, Section 3 to order all members of Congress back to Washington and, should they fail to show up, he will dispatch the FBI to find them, arrest them, and escort them in handcuffs back to the Capitol.
 
2013-10-15 02:38:35 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Infernalist: namegoeshere: Grand_Moff_Joseph: And now they want to skip out of town:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-house-gop-considers-pas si ng-bill-then-leaving-town

"According to , House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) are discussing "voting on their bill and, if it passes, leaving town - a bid to try to force the Senate's hand."

Does that count as force?

Force need not be physical.

Depends on how the SC would view things.  I don't see Obama moving to charge them without touching base with Roberts and the other Supreme Court members to make sure it's a legit strategy.

Is even that legal though?  This may be a stupid question, but the POTUS can't just call up SCOTUS and bounce ideas off of them 'off the record', right?

I wouldn't bet on any of that happening anyway; imprisoning political opposition seems like a really bad road to go down.

It'd be cleaner for the President to just ignore the debt ceiling and have Treasury issue new bonds. If we hit the ceiling, the executive branch will have to break *some* law, it's not possible to follow them all. Might as well break just one law, and keep the world economy going in the process.


It's not just about whether the Treasury can issue new bonds though.  It's about every person and organization on earth treating those bonds as 100% reliable and ironclad.  That's why people are talking about the whole system collapsing.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the Republicans go on TV telling people not to accept new bonds.
 
2013-10-15 02:38:45 PM

George Babbitt: TNel: Everybody already knows that the healthcare industry is the crook.  Currently we are at the point of getting everyone healthcare to try and make it so they can't use the "ER excuse" for why their prices are so high.  Again what's your position? What do you think will fix this?  You seem to be complaining a lot without saying how to fix it.

Um...shoot em' all? I don't know, you think answers come in Fark threads? My right to do so.

/The biggest and fanciest new construction in this city I live in, Columbus, Ohio, are the Medical Center(the name doesn't do it justice) at OSU, the Nationwide Children's Hospital(a gleaming jewel of the city), Riverside Methodist Hospital which is doubling in size again, especially with the recent addition of the McConnel Heart Health Center which has acres of wooded walking trails behind it. My wife's OBGYN moved which hospital he delivers out of to Dublin Methodist, so our insurance allowed us to follow him, a place that looks and feels more like a celebrity rehab/spa.
//I don't have answers, but I see who has the money


There's a great metaphor for the changes in the US economy on Columbus's east side.

There was a Western Electric factory there (Broad & 270), my grandma worked there for 30-odd years.

Now that building is the business office for Mt. Carmel East Hospital (which is across the street).
 
2013-10-15 02:40:13 PM

George Babbitt: TNel: Everybody already knows that the healthcare industry is the crook.  Currently we are at the point of getting everyone healthcare to try and make it so they can't use the "ER excuse" for why their prices are so high.  Again what's your position? What do you think will fix this?  You seem to be complaining a lot without saying how to fix it.

Um...shoot em' all? I don't know, you think answers come in Fark threads? My right to do so.

/The biggest and fanciest new construction in this city I live in, Columbus, Ohio, are the Medical Center(the name doesn't do it justice) at OSU, the Nationwide Children's Hospital(a gleaming jewel of the city), Riverside Methodist Hospital which is doubling in size again, especially with the recent addition of the McConnel Heart Health Center which has acres of wooded walking trails behind it. My wife's OBGYN moved which hospital he delivers out of to Dublin Methodist, so our insurance allowed us to follow him, a place that looks and feels more like a celebrity rehab/spa.
//I don't have answers, but I see who has the money


You're a Buckeye.... that explains a lot

/I keed
 
2013-10-15 02:40:37 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: theincidentaleconomist.com - the best source anywhere for health policy.

They're very reality-based and data-driven. They tend to give Republican ideas a thorough, fair, non-strawmanned airing, before demolishing them with facts.

Their FAQ links an excellent series of posts picking apart where the excess expenses in US health care are. Short version: everywhere.


I'll take a look, but one of their authors was on CNN defending diet soda as safe, so that person has lost my trust right out of the gate.
 
2013-10-15 02:43:06 PM

ArkPanda: It's not just about whether the Treasury can issue new bonds though.  It's about every person and organization on earth treating those bonds as 100% reliable and ironclad.  That's why people are talking about the whole system collapsing.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the Republicans go on TV telling people not to accept new bonds.


That confidence collapse is already happening. Some big players have moved out of Treasuries that mature in the next couple weeks. Treasuries that mature in the next couple weeks have higher yields than longer-term ones (reflecting some doubt they'll get paid back on time).

Markets take in new information pretty quickly, and it's not like the upcoming default is a surprise to anyone at this point.
 
2013-10-15 02:45:57 PM

Gaseous Anomaly: There was a Western Electric factory there


I don't believe you, there are no factories in Columbus.

/cubiclephobia is a thing
 
2013-10-15 02:47:51 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: [knowmore.washingtonpost.com image 850x454]


they didn't think their cunning plan all the way through.
 
2013-10-15 02:48:26 PM

HammerMill: Please give me one example of a function that government has taken over and made it better, faster, or cheaper.

There are none.  While in principal the ACA is full of rainbows and sunshine for everyone, in practice it will be is a mess.


the interstate highways
the moon landing
the internet
 
2013-10-15 02:49:32 PM

Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: nekom: I want poor people to have better access to health insurance.  I was told that this makes me worse than Hitler.

I can't afford $60 copay to my primary physician and $5000/year deductible all for the cost of $175/month in premiums for Bronze level coverage.

Do you qualify for the tax credit? What about the minimum coverage (there is a cheaper plan than bronze).

Considering how little the Bronze covers, I can't imagine what the minimum coverage manages...

More than NOT HAVING F*CKING INSURANCE I IMAGINE.

For an average youngish healthy male, I never come close to hitting $5000 before coverage would kick in. I had a $1500 deductible a few years back and didn't even reach that amount.

You.. don't get how insurance works, do you?


Dude is just trolling.  He claims he can't afford a copay but has a total fark account.   Being able to see a doctor is way better than what total fark has to offer.
 
2013-10-15 02:50:31 PM

bulldg4life: Xenomech: Hey, it worked for the black vote.

Your idiotic troll becomes doubly stupid when you realize democrats have gotten 90% black vote for 50 years.


Can you get, like, a "sense of humor" unit installed, or are they not available for your model?  Just curious.
 
2013-10-15 02:56:53 PM

George Babbitt: Um...shoot em' all? I don't know, you think answers come in Fark threads? My right to do so.

/The biggest and fanciest new construction in this city I live in, Columbus, Ohio, are the Medical Center(the name doesn't do it justice) at OSU, the Nationwide Children's Hospital(a gleaming jewel of the city), Riverside Methodist Hospital which is doubling in size again, especially with the recent addition of the McConnel Heart Health Center which has acres of wooded walking trails behind it. My wife's OBGYN moved which hospital he delivers out of to Dublin Methodist, so our insurance allowed us to follow him, a place that looks and feels more like a celebrity rehab/spa.
//I don't have answers, but I see who has the money


So let's stop trying to fix the issue and it will work itself out?
 
2013-10-15 02:57:27 PM
Discuss:

"I understand the motivation, and the nobility and the moral imperative behind that. I get that. But that doesn't change the math, the math is that those people get sick more often and run up more medical bills than someone who is healthy. Duh."

"If they now have to be covered by the same company that you're covered by and they're required to take them... then the math kicks in. Because the amount of money that that company was paying out to the medical community is going to go way up. They're going to pay out to the medical community per person than they ever have before... what they pay out per person is how your premium is determined - plus profit."
"Everyone is going to be charged the same. Translation you are going to pay higher premiums to keep the insurance company open, so they don't go broke. Because they are now going to have to cover people that they didn't have to cover before... sick people."

"It's a nice moral imperative, but it doesn't change the math."

"Translation. Your health insurance premiums are going to go WAY up. They HAVE to. It's not that I'm mad about it, it's not a political statement. It's that I know how to do math."

"Your premium went way up, your employer paying them might affect your raise. It might even affect the stability of your job because they might not be able to pay everybody, because they have higher costs of operating now... you paid for it, it's called a pass-through, you're going to pay for it."


Read more at  http://eaglerising.com/2254/dave-ramsey-destroys-obamacare/#qDw7TL8MP o ZyAR2T.99
 
2013-10-15 02:57:54 PM

IRQ12: You really don't need anecdotal evidence when you have dozens of insurance companies stocks posting record gains year over year after the ACA.


Which is supposed to be different than them posting record gains year over year BEFORE ACA...

static.cdn-seekingalpha.com
 
2013-10-15 02:59:38 PM

Philip J. Fry: ude is just trolling. He claims he can't afford a copay but has a total fark account. Being able to see a doctor is way better than what total fark has to offer.


Go back and read all of the posts, then try again.
 
2013-10-15 02:59:58 PM

Philip J. Fry: Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: Obama's Reptiloid Master: George Babbitt: nekom: I want poor people to have better access to health insurance.  I was told that this makes me worse than Hitler.

I can't afford $60 copay to my primary physician and $5000/year deductible all for the cost of $175/month in premiums for Bronze level coverage.

Do you qualify for the tax credit? What about the minimum coverage (there is a cheaper plan than bronze).

Considering how little the Bronze covers, I can't imagine what the minimum coverage manages...

More than NOT HAVING F*CKING INSURANCE I IMAGINE.

For an average youngish healthy male, I never come close to hitting $5000 before coverage would kick in. I had a $1500 deductible a few years back and didn't even reach that amount.

You.. don't get how insurance works, do you?

Dude is just trolling.  He claims he can't afford a copay but has a total fark account.   Being able to see a doctor is way better than what total fark has to offer.


*ahem* I can't afford TF, and I wouldn't give Drew my beer. Some people get sponsored.

/just don't too excited with broad brush you've got there
 
2013-10-15 03:00:36 PM

ArmanTanzarian: Discuss:

"I understand the motivation, and the nobility and the moral imperative behind that. I get that. But that doesn't change the math, the math is that those people get sick more often and run up more medical bills than someone who is healthy. Duh."

"If they now have to be covered by the same company that you're covered by and they're required to take them... then the math kicks in. Because the amount of money that that company was paying out to the medical community is going to go way up. They're going to pay out to the medical community per person than they ever have before... what they pay out per person is how your premium is determined - plus profit."
"Everyone is going to be charged the same. Translation you are going to pay higher premiums to keep the insurance company open, so they don't go broke. Because they are now going to have to cover people that they didn't have to cover before... sick people."

"It's a nice moral imperative, but it doesn't change the math."

"Translation. Your health insurance premiums are going to go WAY up. They HAVE to. It's not that I'm mad about it, it's not a political statement. It's that I know how to do math."

"Your premium went way up, your employer paying them might affect your raise. It might even affect the stability of your job because they might not be able to pay everybody, because they have higher costs of operating now... you paid for it, it's called a pass-through, you're going to pay for it."

Read more at  http://eaglerising.com/2254/dave-ramsey-destroys-obamacare/#qDw7TL8MP o ZyAR2T.99


Easy answer, risk pool.  Just like they have been doing for years.  I have been to the doctor 2 times in the last 5 years so the amount I pay is going to people that need it more.
 
2013-10-15 03:02:16 PM

TNel: So let's stop trying to fix the issue and it will work itself out?


I suppose it eventually, but how you ask?

img.fark.net
 
2013-10-15 03:06:28 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Mike_LowELL: Nadie_AZ: Mike_LowELL: This default would not be happening if you stupid liberals would stop defaulting to a Democrat every time an election comes around.

This is so true.

Seconded.  Completely agree with you.

Did you just second your own post?


I think he's meta-trolling us.
 
2013-10-15 03:13:08 PM

impaler: IRQ12: You really don't need anecdotal evidence when you have dozens of insurance companies stocks posting record gains year over year after the ACA.

Which is supposed to be different than them posting record gains year over year BEFORE ACA...

[static.cdn-seekingalpha.com image 480x329]


That's a neat chart showing  revenue from some place.  That addresses record  stockprice gains how?

Ya know, this kind of stuff:

i.imgur.com
 
2013-10-15 03:30:32 PM

IRQ12: hat's a neat chart showing  revenue from some place.  That addresses record  stockprice gains how?


Stock prices are dependent on revenue, not the other way around.

PS, that "some place" is the largest health insurance company in the US.
 
2013-10-15 03:33:40 PM

George Babbitt: kidgenius: George Babbitt: Mike Chewbacca: You are still living beyond your means. If you can't afford $175 a month, you're barely treading water. And you said "we" which means you're at least married. Or maybe your state farked you over by not expanding Medicare?

Really, I have no idea how you can be married and live in cheap Ohio and still not be able to afford $175/month for insurance for your family. The cheapest price we're looking at in WA is somewhere around $400 (our income went up since we had to buy our insurance last year, which means we no longer qualify for a subsidy) for a family of two non-smokers in our 30s and 40s. $175 is a farking bargain.

That was the cost for a single person, healthy and smoke free. I didn't even bother to see what it went up to when I figured in my family. I didn't want to test my wallet heart muscles.

And was the $175/month subsidized, or un-subsidized?

Were not rich, of course it was subsidized. Which is the same thing as the group rate that my employer secures.



Just did a quick look-up on a subsidy calculator (link below).  Using your single status (since you say you didn't bother to look at what it would be for a family), and the Silver level of care, the threshold for subsidy cut-off (that is, the most annual income you can take in and still get a subsidy) is roughly $38000, well below the $45000 median income in your state.  So much for having to be rich to not qualify for a subsidy.  If you haven't even bothered to find out what it would actually take to cover your wife, then (a) good looking out, dude.  It took less than a minute of Google and 20 seconds to run the numbers on you and your alleged beloved; and (b) you really don't have enough invested in this matter to be caterwauling about it here on the Farks.

I'm going to make an uncharitable leap at this point and make the wild assumption that you haven't actually done a deep dive on this to figure out what the hell is going on.  Perhaps it's time for you to quietly withdraw from the conversation, spent a little time drying your tears, and get yourself a bit smarter about something the grown-ups like to call important stuff.  Or, you know, you could piss away more time on Fark posting in threads.

After all that research and thinking, I've forgotten--exactly what the hell were you biatching about?   Oh yeah, Obamacare bad.  Thanks for your intelligent and well-researched contributions to the thread.  From the dearth of actual research you've committed to it and the all-day post extravaganza you've managed to accomplish in its stead, it's obvious this matter is very important to you--good for you for budgeting your time wisely.

ACA Subsidy Linky:

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/#state=oh&zip=44101&in co me-type=dollars&income=&employer-coverage=1&people=1&adult-count=2&adu lts%5B0%5D%5Bage%5D=21&adults%5B0%5D%5Btobacco%5D=0&adults%5B1%5D%5Bag e%5D=21&adults%5B1%5D%5Btobacco%5D=0&child-count=0&child-tobacco=0
 
2013-10-15 03:43:45 PM

impaler: IRQ12: hat's a neat chart showing  revenue from some place.  That addresses record  stockprice gains how?

Stock prices are dependent on revenue, not the other way around.

PS, that "some place" is the largest health insurance company in the US.


 Not quite. Stock price depends on demand, which may or may not have anything to do with revenue.

/see Amazon
 
2013-10-15 03:52:30 PM

impaler: IRQ12: hat's a neat chart showing  revenue from some place.  That addresses record  stockprice gains how?

Stock prices are dependent on revenue, not the other way around.


Lol, Oh really, tell me more about how that works.  In my bizarro world all of the analysts are expecting and have seen an increase in profits so the stock prices are soaring.
 
PS, that "some place" is the largest health insurance company in the US.

Very interesting, I should have included that in my chart.  Hmmmmmmm.

You definitely got me this round.
 
2013-10-15 03:53:37 PM

Peki: Not quite. Stock price depends on demand, which may or may not have anything to do with revenue.

/see Amazon


You mean speculation. Speculative pricing doesn't have a large affect on dividend paying insurance stock.
 
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