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(Sun Sentinel)   Guy gets stranded at the beach naked after his friend steals all his clothes, so he decides to run home nude. This being Florida, naturally a stranger shoots him dead   (sun-sentinel.com) divider line 326
    More: Florida, Hollywood, Hollywood Boulevard, beaches, clothing, nude, friend, Pembroke Pines  
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14614 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2013 at 6:00 AM (47 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-15 10:42:40 AM

bonno: Thank goodness that guy had a gun! Imagine what might have happened if guns were illegal and not so widely owned, this guy may have been forced to act more intelligently.


Or think up how to make a gun. No ones EVER been able to do that.
 
2013-10-15 10:43:15 AM

I May Be Crazy But...: spacelord321: I May Be Crazy But...: spacelord321: Confabulat: Giltric: Shows who you value more...the criminal.

Are you a child? Do you think that is anything any sane person thinks?

Why are you talking like a little baby?

Regardless, he is correct in stating that the burden of understanding that possessions do not equal life is on the thief, not the victim. At least IMHO.

I suggest you be less humble. Grow a pair and show some god damned agency in your own life. If you shoot someone, don't use the "he made me do it" cop out. Own it. Say "I shot him. I chose to take his life."

I never said anything otherwise. I simply stated that the thief should understand that he is giving me the chance to make that choice, in not so many words. Lighten up, Francis.

Does your ego feel better now? Mine does.

I feel much better. You admitted that you would choose to kill someone. That's what I asked for, instead of "the burden ... is on the thief".


The burden of granting me that choice is on the thief. Your semantic game is pointless.
 
2013-10-15 10:45:19 AM

CheatCommando: Giltric: How would you know what they are there for.

How does it feel to live your life as an abject coward, always entertaining the darkest suspicions of everyone you meet and only able to assuage that gnawing terror by carrying a magical talisman that says you are not Afraid, you are a Tough Guy Who No One Messes With?

Man we need better mental health counseling in this country - the level of paranoia you show should make you unfit to carry anything more dangerous than a spoon.



Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Crimes are usually perpetrated against you by someone you know...a friend, a family member.....that's a fact.
 
2013-10-15 10:49:25 AM

Giltric: But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


Responsible gun owner.
 
2013-10-15 10:49:38 AM
so let me get this straight... After an argument with a friend, dead black guy found himself naked on a beach, close to his place of employment, and about 10 miles from home.   So, when confronted with this situation, the decision he makes is, "run 10 miles home while naked"...  Am I processing that one right?

I think I would have skipped all the future drama and just called the cops on myself...  They would probably give me a ride home...
 
2013-10-15 10:49:50 AM

Giltric: Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


heh! have a plan to kill everyone  you meet, psycho alert!
 
2013-10-15 10:51:12 AM

Maul555: so let me get this straight... After an argument with a friend, dead black guy found himself naked on a beach, close to his place of employment, and about 10 miles from home.


At 5am.
 
2013-10-15 10:51:16 AM

spacelord321: The burden of granting me that choice is on the thief. Your semantic game is pointless.


If you seriously meant from the beginning that the thief shouldn't be climbing in a stranger's window at 2 AM and that the guy shooting has to understand and take responsibility for killing that thief, then we're on the same page here. But that's not how I read what you said. ("...the burden of understanding that possessions do not equal life is on the thief, not the victim. ")

I'm not here to say whether I think shooting a thief climbing in your window is better or worse than clearing out of the house. I'm not honestly sure (as long as you identify the thief clearly as a thief, not your kid or something). But too many folks seem to think that their ONLY choice is to shoot someone when they feel threatened, and these stand your ground and castle laws don't help.
 
2013-10-15 10:53:41 AM

Giltric: I May Be Crazy But...: I want to know how he's managing to claim that he was being menaced with a straight face. (He must be, right) I've seen guys streaking, and at no point did I feel like I was in danger. There just something completely not dangerous about a guy with his bits dangling in the breeze.

Unless the guy is advancing on you aggressively demanding that you give him a ride....and he won't take no for an answer....maybe he even tries to open the door to your car as you are telling him no and to back away.


Which of course couldn't happen unless you turn your car around to go confront him.
 
2013-10-15 10:54:23 AM

Giltric: CheatCommando: Giltric: How would you know what they are there for.

How does it feel to live your life as an abject coward, always entertaining the darkest suspicions of everyone you meet and only able to assuage that gnawing terror by carrying a magical talisman that says you are not Afraid, you are a Tough Guy Who No One Messes With?

Man we need better mental health counseling in this country - the level of paranoia you show should make you unfit to carry anything more dangerous than a spoon.


Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Crimes are usually perpetrated against you by someone you know...a friend, a family member.....that's a fact.


Where did you bury your family?
 
2013-10-15 10:54:57 AM

Maul555: so let me get this straight... After an argument with a friend, dead black guy found himself naked on a beach, close to his place of employment, and about 10 miles from home.   So, when confronted with this situation, the decision he makes is, "run 10 miles home while naked"...  Am I processing that one right?

I think I would have skipped all the future drama and just called the cops on myself...  They would probably give me a ride home...


I was fired once for taking a nap at my workplace off hours. I might should have tried running.
 
2013-10-15 10:58:55 AM

Giltric: Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


For those who maybe missed it, it's a joke.
 
2013-10-15 11:01:13 AM
Ok. I will agree that the shooter must actively make decisions, but I stand behind my opinion that the thief remains liable for all bad decisions taken by both parties.

Also, my discussion was aimed at a situation that was verified, wherein, the fact that someone is breaking into your house at night is established.
 
2013-10-15 11:04:30 AM

runescorpio: Or think up how to make a gun. No ones EVER been able to do that.


It is not easy to make a decent, reliable gun that is capable of killing someone - it is much easier to purchase a mass produced firearm legitimately.

Your argument is RUBBISH. You state it like "we may as well make all bad things legal, because, you know, someone might figure out how to make it anyway". With that thought process, we may as well sell nuclear bombs down at the local supermarket.
 
2013-10-15 11:07:46 AM

Lady J: HotWingConspiracy: Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: putt putt putt

"Hey naked guy, you're naked. You ok?"

"Yes" and/or "F you man"

"Ok"

putt putt putt

That's the only way this could go down? That's it? Just that simple?

Well no, it could have been another GZim tough guy looking for a conflict that he would never ever ever seek out if he wasn't armed and prepped to kill.

He could have just called the police as well if he was really concerned. There is no sensible scenario that ends with this guy getting shot to death.

this. anyone who says otherwise is just waiting for their own chance to mess up their fruit of the looms shouting 'stop running away or I'll shoot' and happening upon someone alone who doesnt stop. and is probably black.


Your politics are showing; that is simply not true. It is entirely plausible that a normal well intentioned person saw a person running naked before the break of dawn, tried to offer help, and ended up in a violent confrontation due to the naked man's irrationality/violence after the naked man was in the car.

///There are many other plausible scenarios, some of which include the shooter being a cold blooded racist murderer. You should stop presuming so much.
 
2013-10-15 11:12:35 AM

bonno: runescorpio: Or think up how to make a gun. No ones EVER been able to do that.

It is not easy to make a decent, reliable gun that is capable of killing someone - it is much easier to purchase a mass produced firearm legitimately.

Your argument is RUBBISH. You state it like "we may as well make all bad things legal, because, you know, someone might figure out how to make it anyway". With that thought process, we may as well sell nuclear bombs down at the local supermarket.


No one is going to disagree that buying a mass produced firearm legitimately is easier than creating a decent, reliable gun. A lot of people make them and don't need them to be decent or reliable. That's pretty much the whole point of zip guns.
 
2013-10-15 11:14:11 AM

redmid17: eurotrash: No I don't, for all I know it could be my nephew coming home late, locals doing a drunk prank so I get out of the house. There is no possession that is worth a persons life, nothing that a thief would want is something I wouldn't be able to replace.

In a civilized society we give the government monopoly on violence, this is done to avoid a lawless society where the strong prevail and weaker people cower. I know that you will never see it this way, in your world a TV is worth more to you than a fellow human beings life.

Surely you can at least see some irony in that sentence is your response to his scenario of three criminals breaking into one's house to steal things


No, where would the irony be?  Having breakins does not entail a lawless society, being able to act as judge, jury and executioner is. I believe the irony exists in that you believe there is irony in my statement.
 
2013-10-15 11:14:24 AM

redmid17: bonno: runescorpio: Or think up how to make a gun. No ones EVER been able to do that.

It is not easy to make a decent, reliable gun that is capable of killing someone - it is much easier to purchase a mass produced firearm legitimately.

Your argument is RUBBISH. You state it like "we may as well make all bad things legal, because, you know, someone might figure out how to make it anyway". With that thought process, we may as well sell nuclear bombs down at the local supermarket.

No one is going to disagree that buying a mass produced firearm legitimately is easier than creating a decent, reliable gun. A lot of people make them and don't need them to be decent or reliable. That's pretty much the whole point of zip guns.


I guess I should also point out the fallacy of comparing something that can be made from common hardware store components versus something that most nation-states can't put together with aid from highly specialized, expensive equipment and scientists who have actually helped create and run nuclear programs.
 
2013-10-15 11:15:45 AM

eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: No I don't, for all I know it could be my nephew coming home late, locals doing a drunk prank so I get out of the house. There is no possession that is worth a persons life, nothing that a thief would want is something I wouldn't be able to replace.

In a civilized society we give the government monopoly on violence, this is done to avoid a lawless society where the strong prevail and weaker people cower. I know that you will never see it this way, in your world a TV is worth more to you than a fellow human beings life.

Surely you can at least see some irony in that sentence is your response to his scenario of three criminals breaking into one's house to steal things

No, where would the irony be?  Having breakins does not entail a lawless society, being able to act as judge, jury and executioner is. I believe the irony exists in that you believe there is irony in my statement.


Well I will just bold it for you and leave you with the notion that 3 people breaking into a house will generally have the advantage over one person in the house.
 
2013-10-15 11:20:26 AM
Would someone please decide if this is going to be a race thread or a gun thread?
 
2013-10-15 11:26:13 AM
Giltric:

What if they aren't there for your possessions?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it

What if they are there to rape your wife and daughter?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it

How would you know what they are there for.

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it


Breaking and entering to steal a TV is the gateway to full on home invasion rapes and murders.

This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam

Shoot to kill, you may have just paid it forward and saved the lives of someone like the Petit family.
More likely you would have killed an innocent man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_mu rd

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2014506/pg1
http://nypost.com/2012/09/28/connecticut-man-shoots-son-dead-after-m is taking-him-for-an-intruder/


Why is it that the TV is not worth taking someones life over....why don't you word it as "someone elses TV is not worth yo ...

If you believe that property is more valuable than life then that is something that you morally will have to live with, I wouldn't value a TV over a life, simple as that, and I am an agnostic.
 
2013-10-15 11:26:54 AM

Tatterdemalian: Oh shiat, the media will actually have to play the "white African-American" card.


I'm not entirely sure, but I think "African-American" has been retired for the most part  (very 90s, doncha know). We're back to saying "black."

Back in Black!
 
2013-10-15 11:26:55 AM

Khazar-Khum: OnlyM3: TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]
To be fair, in Florida, you're 6x more likely to get shot if you're black than if you're white in general. Now tell the rest of the story. For those -fark it, for ALL- shootings. What color is the shooter most likely to be.

May I present...Duke Laguerre, the shooter.

[scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net image 540x720]


That cant be!! A black man would NEVER shoot a black man!! Only whites shoot blacks! Come on this is fark every white man is guilty.
 
2013-10-15 11:29:54 AM

dabbletech: Would someone please decide if this is going to be a race thread or a gun thread?


[porquenolasdos.gif]
 
2013-10-15 11:30:48 AM

This text is now purple: Confabulat: Notice how the gun nuts quickly move the argument to home invasions and rape of your wife and children, instead of the actual story.

It's a stretch, but not a huge one. For better or worse, public nudity like this is often considered a sex offense*. Strange people wandering nude in the dead of night are already of reasonably dubious motive.

Likely, probably not? Reasonable... maybe.

* - this is a bug, not a feature.


A naked person wandering or running around at night is much more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than looking to sexually assault someone.
 
2013-10-15 11:34:25 AM

eurotrash: This text is now purple: Confabulat: Notice how the gun nuts quickly move the argument to home invasions and rape of your wife and children, instead of the actual story.

It's a stretch, but not a huge one. For better or worse, public nudity like this is often considered a sex offense*. Strange people wandering nude in the dead of night are already of reasonably dubious motive.

Likely, probably not? Reasonable... maybe.

* - this is a bug, not a feature.

A naked person wandering or running around at night is much more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than looking to sexually assault someone.


And they are more likely to be strung out on drugs and/or have some type of mental illness than the either two combined.
 
2013-10-15 11:36:33 AM

eurotrash: Giltric: What if they aren't there for your possessions?
What if they are there to rape your wife and daughter?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it


Somebody's not winning any Father of the Year awards.
 
2013-10-15 11:40:39 AM

This text is now purple: Literally Addicted: This text is now purple: [armedpatriots.com image 640x360]

Dear god, who created that ad?  They should be raped AND shot.

It's a parody of the Brady Campaign ads. It's also a position eurotrash is actually espousing.


Non sequitur
I have never said anything like that, but thanks for making up arguments for me. Perhaps you should debate honestly or just get out of the thread.
 
2013-10-15 11:41:07 AM

Bungles: I'm always baffled how in America somebody can shoot somebody and that person is not arrested just as a matter of course, regardless of the "circumstances", because it's a crime being investigated.


You have to change them in 48 hours... lot's of time they like to gather evidence and get the charges correct before arrest. They know who the shooter is and where he lives.
 
2013-10-15 11:41:11 AM

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Giltric: But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Responsible gun owner.


Yeah, he forgot that that line only applies if you're an assassin. Because that's a job. Otherwise you're a crazed gunman, which is mental sickness.
 
2013-10-15 11:41:31 AM

redmid17: I guess I should also point out the fallacy of comparing something that can be made from common hardware store components versus something that most nation-states can't put together with aid from highly specialized, expensive equipment and scientists who have actually helped create and run nuclear programs.


There are lots of illegal things that can be made easily which are still illegal - for good reasons. Drugs, for example.

My point is that just because someone might make something at home is no reason to mass produce it and sell it legitimately.

Like I said, you may as well sell every single object ever made if that is a valid argument.

Perhaps supermarkets should have meth, cocaine, guns, brass knuckles, cyanide, sharks with lasers.... yeah, that'll make society a much safer place.
 
2013-10-15 11:45:36 AM

eurotrash: Giltric:

What if they aren't there for your possessions?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it

What if they are there to rape your wife and daughter?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it

How would you know what they are there for.

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it


Breaking and entering to steal a TV is the gateway to full on home invasion rapes and murders.
This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam

Shoot to kill, you may have just paid it forward and saved the lives of someone like the Petit family.
More likely you would have killed an innocent man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_mu rd

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2014506/pg1
http://nypost.com/2012/09/28/connecticut-man-shoots-son-dead-after-m is taking-him-for-an-intruder/

Why is it that the TV is not worth taking someones life over....why don't you word it as "someone elses TV is not worth yo ...

If you believe that property is more valuable than life then that is something that you morally will have to live with, I wouldn't value a TV over a life, simple as that, and I am an agnostic.


Nice to know you would run away as your wife and daughter are being assaulted/raped and possibly murdered. You live alone but not by choice right?

Do you shout at them over your shoulder as you run away? Telling them the rape wont last as long as the guilt you would feel if you tried protecting them from the innocent intruder?

I like how you frame the guy stealing the tv as innocent....


Keep calm and leave your family at the perps mercy.....
 
2013-10-15 11:52:32 AM

redmid17: eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: No I don't, for all I know it could be my nephew coming home late, locals doing a drunk prank so I get out of the house. There is no possession that is worth a persons life, nothing that a thief would want is something I wouldn't be able to replace.

In a civilized society we give the government monopoly on violence, this is done to avoid a lawless society where the strong prevail and weaker people cower. I know that you will never see it this way, in your world a TV is worth more to you than a fellow human beings life.

Surely you can at least see some irony in that sentence is your response to his scenario of three criminals breaking into one's house to steal things

No, where would the irony be?  Having breakins does not entail a lawless society, being able to act as judge, jury and executioner is. I believe the irony exists in that you believe there is irony in my statement.

Well I will just bold it for you and leave you with the notion that 3 people breaking into a house will generally have the advantage over one person in the house.


Let me take the irony away for you, the comparison was between a civilized society and a Mad Max society, does that make it clearer for you?
There will always be stronger people that pray on weaker, the difference is a transparent justice system and monopoly on violence by the government. If you want a vendetta society there are remote areas in Asia minor you can move to.
 
2013-10-15 11:52:45 AM

notatrollorami: Lady J: HotWingConspiracy: Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: putt putt putt

"Hey naked guy, you're naked. You ok?"

"Yes" and/or "F you man"

"Ok"

putt putt putt

That's the only way this could go down? That's it? Just that simple?

Well no, it could have been another GZim tough guy looking for a conflict that he would never ever ever seek out if he wasn't armed and prepped to kill.

He could have just called the police as well if he was really concerned. There is no sensible scenario that ends with this guy getting shot to death.

this. anyone who says otherwise is just waiting for their own chance to mess up their fruit of the looms shouting 'stop running away or I'll shoot' and happening upon someone alone who doesnt stop. and is probably black.

Your politics are showing; that is simply not true. It is entirely plausible that a normal well intentioned person saw a person running naked before the break of dawn, tried to offer help, and ended up in a violent confrontation due to the naked man's irrationality/violence after the naked man was in the car.

///There are many other plausible scenarios, some of which include the shooter being a cold blooded racist murderer. You should stop presuming so much.


Once again, for the benefit of Farkers: Our shooter, Mr Duke Laguerre.

scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-10-15 11:52:48 AM

bonno: redmid17: I guess I should also point out the fallacy of comparing something that can be made from common hardware store components versus something that most nation-states can't put together with aid from highly specialized, expensive equipment and scientists who have actually helped create and run nuclear programs.

There are lots of illegal things that can be made easily which are still illegal - for good reasons. Drugs, for example.

My point is that just because someone might make something at home is no reason to mass produce it and sell it legitimately.

Like I said, you may as well sell every single object ever made if that is a valid argument.

Perhaps supermarkets should have meth, cocaine, guns, brass knuckles, cyanide, sharks with lasers.... yeah, that'll make society a much safer place.


It's an absurd argument. You had a solid enough point as is was. Either way lots of supermarkets do have meth and cocaine available in the pharmacy. They are controlled substances with medical value. Guns and brass knuckles are legal to sell as well in most places. Cyanide isn't as readily as available, but poisons like strychnine exists for a reason. Sharks with lasers is a bit more complicated because ownership of sharks is regulated due to scarcity/endangered status. I don't think the laser is subject to as many laws.

Besides you were the one who put the "we may as well make all bad things legal, because, you know, someone might figure out how to make it anyway" on the table, not him.
 
2013-10-15 11:54:51 AM
I thought killing people for no good reason was totally normal in Floriduh, stand yer ground and all that. This is news?
 
2013-10-15 11:55:23 AM

CheatCommando: Giltric: How would you know what they are there for.

How does it feel to live your life as an abject coward, always entertaining the darkest suspicions of everyone you meet and only able to assuage that gnawing terror by carrying a magical talisman that says you are not Afraid, you are a Tough Guy Who No One Messes With?

Man we need better mental health counseling in this country - the level of paranoia you show should make you unfit to carry anything more dangerous than a spoon.


i don't think its fear, I think it's that they really, really fancy themselves with a gun in their hand, and 'defence' is just an excuse, for that deepest fantasy they have that one day they'll get to shoot someone.

amounts to the same, of course
 
2013-10-15 11:57:24 AM

fusillade762: He told detectives he was driving west on Hollywood Boulevard between 5 and 5:30 a.m. Oct. 6 when he spotted the nude man. He passed by him, then turned around and went back, he told police.

Oh for f*ck's sake. Call the goddamn cops and let them deal with it. Did no one learn anything from the Martin shooting?


*sigh* Why do you think he went back?
 
2013-10-15 12:00:51 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: spacelord321: Confabulat: Giltric: Shows who you value more...the criminal.

Are you a child? Do you think that is anything any sane person thinks?

Why are you talking like a little baby?

Regardless, he is correct in stating that the burden of understanding that possessions do not equal life is on the thief, not the victim. At least IMHO.

I suggest you be less humble. Grow a pair and show some god damned agency in your own life. If you shoot someone, don't use the "he made me do it" cop out. Own it. Say "I shot him. I chose to take his life."


This is a red flag phrase.
 
2013-10-15 12:03:07 PM
Haven't you race baiters learned anything from the Trayvon/Zimmerman threads?

Stand your ground protects black people more than it does white people.


Blacks have a 55% success rate defending themselves invoking SYG vs 16% for whites when they invoke SYG.
 
2013-10-15 12:03:44 PM
Giltric:

Nice to know you would run away as your wife and daughter are being assaulted/raped and possibly murdered. You live alone but not by choice right?

Do you shout at them over your shoulder as you run away? Telling them the rape wont last as long as the guilt you would feel if you tried protecting them from the innocent intruder?


Geez, serious? I guess when someone runs out of arguments these type of silly ad hominems come up. Obviously I would make sure they get out first but this still does not necessitate me shooting anyone.
I am not really sure why it is that every burglar is a rapist but perhaps you have experience?


I like how you frame the guy stealing the tv as innocent....
Where would I be doing that? By stating that I wouldn't want to shoot someone on sight?

Not every situation is solved with a gun, now that said I am a believer in self defense if there is no other option I would take a life to save my own or someone close I would however be prepared for a court date after that. All I am saying is that the SYG law has no place in a civilized society.
 
2013-10-15 12:04:10 PM

notatrollorami: Lady J: HotWingConspiracy: Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: putt putt putt

"Hey naked guy, you're naked. You ok?"

"Yes" and/or "F you man"

"Ok"

putt putt putt

That's the only way this could go down? That's it? Just that simple?

Well no, it could have been another GZim tough guy looking for a conflict that he would never ever ever seek out if he wasn't armed and prepped to kill.

He could have just called the police as well if he was really concerned. There is no sensible scenario that ends with this guy getting shot to death.

this. anyone who says otherwise is just waiting for their own chance to mess up their fruit of the looms shouting 'stop running away or I'll shoot' and happening upon someone alone who doesnt stop. and is probably black.

Your politics are showing; that is simply not true. It is entirely plausible that a normal well intentioned person saw a person running naked before the break of dawn, tried to offer help, and ended up in a violent confrontation due to the naked man's irrationality/violence after the naked man was in the car.

///There are many other plausible scenarios, some of which include the shooter being a cold blooded racist murderer. You should stop presuming so much.


Do your politics demand that you make shiat up like "the naked man was in the car"?
 
2013-10-15 12:04:23 PM

eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: No I don't, for all I know it could be my nephew coming home late, locals doing a drunk prank so I get out of the house. There is no possession that is worth a persons life, nothing that a thief would want is something I wouldn't be able to replace.

In a civilized society we give the government monopoly on violence, this is done to avoid a lawless society where the strong prevail and weaker people cower. I know that you will never see it this way, in your world a TV is worth more to you than a fellow human beings life.

Surely you can at least see some irony in that sentence is your response to his scenario of three criminals breaking into one's house to steal things

No, where would the irony be?  Having breakins does not entail a lawless society, being able to act as judge, jury and executioner is. I believe the irony exists in that you believe there is irony in my statement.

Well I will just bold it for you and leave you with the notion that 3 people breaking into a house will generally have the advantage over one person in the house.

Let me take the irony away for you, the comparison was between a civilized society and a Mad Max society, does that make it clearer for you?
There will always be stronger people that pray on weaker, the difference is a transparent justice system and monopoly on violence by the government. If you want a vendetta society there are remote areas in Asia minor you can move to.


Yes and it was a poorly worded and poorly supported argument. You talk about giving the government a monopoly on violence in response to an argument that criminals might decide to use violence. Clearly this will happen in civilized societies and uncivilized societies. It's happened everywhere in the history of humanity at all times.

A government monopoly on violence means you don't believe in self-defense *at all.*

A lack of a government monopoly on violence does not necessitate sliding into Mad Max land. Hell I find it hilarious you are espousing a government monopoly on violence as something only a civilized country would have, but your own country allows you to use violence in defense of yourself, family, home, and property.
 
2013-10-15 12:05:51 PM

eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: redmid17: eurotrash: No I don't, for all I know it could be my nephew coming home late, locals doing a drunk prank so I get out of the house. There is no possession that is worth a persons life, nothing that a thief would want is something I wouldn't be able to replace.

In a civilized society we give the government monopoly on violence, this is done to avoid a lawless society where the strong prevail and weaker people cower. I know that you will never see it this way, in your world a TV is worth more to you than a fellow human beings life.

Surely you can at least see some irony in that sentence is your response to his scenario of three criminals breaking into one's house to steal things

No, where would the irony be?  Having breakins does not entail a lawless society, being able to act as judge, jury and executioner is. I believe the irony exists in that you believe there is irony in my statement.

Well I will just bold it for you and leave you with the notion that 3 people breaking into a house will generally have the advantage over one person in the house.

Let me take the irony away for you, the comparison was between a civilized society and a Mad Max society, does that make it clearer for you?
There will always be stronger people that pray on weaker, the difference is a transparent justice system and monopoly on violence by the government. If you want a vendetta society there are remote areas in Asia minor you can move to.


I believe it has been established that Americans do not believe, nor want, a total monopoly of violence to be in the hands of the government.  We have placed that monopoly into the law, and given our people and the government the ability to exercise it.  I support castle doctrine and stand your ground laws...   I propose that the more enlightened society is the one where the people are entrusted with judiciously exercising violence when necessary.  It is in lesser societies that the people are at the complete mercy of the government and criminals...
 
2013-10-15 12:06:43 PM

eurotrash: Not every situation is solved with a gun, now that said I am a believer in self defense if there is no other option I would take a life to save my own or someone close I would however be prepared for a court date after that. All I am saying is that the SYG law has no place in a civilized society.


If that is what you believe, you did a horrible job of framing it in your posts.
 
2013-10-15 12:07:48 PM

redmid17: Besides you were the one who put the "we may as well make all bad things legal, because, you know, someone might figure out how to make it anyway" on the table, not him.


That is a good point. I will shut up. Obviously my method of reverse-psyching has the opposite effect to what I was intending.

Chortle.
 
2013-10-15 12:09:35 PM

eurotrash: Giltric:

Nice to know you would run away as your wife and daughter are being assaulted/raped and possibly murdered. You live alone but not by choice right?

Do you shout at them over your shoulder as you run away? Telling them the rape wont last as long as the guilt you would feel if you tried protecting them from the innocent intruder?

Geez, serious? I guess when someone runs out of arguments these type of silly ad hominems come up. Obviously I would make sure they get out first but this still does not necessitate me shooting anyone.
I am not really sure why it is that every burglar is a rapist but perhaps you have experience?


I like how you frame the guy stealing the tv as innocent....
Where would I be doing that? By stating that I wouldn't want to shoot someone on sight?

Not every situation is solved with a gun, now that said I am a believer in self defense if there is no other option I would take a life to save my own or someone close I would however be prepared for a court date after that. All I am saying is that the SYG law has no place in a civilized society.


I'm responding to your own words.

Would you like me to cite them?

I noticed that you yourself left out the incriminating parts and are now trying to pretend that...the bolded part is not what you meant.


What if they are there to rape your wife and daughter?

I don't care because I will leave the area and call police to deal with it
 
2013-10-15 12:19:44 PM

HotWingConspiracy: notatrollorami: Lady J: HotWingConspiracy: Tat'dGreaser: HotWingConspiracy: putt putt putt

"Hey naked guy, you're naked. You ok?"

"Yes" and/or "F you man"

"Ok"

putt putt putt

That's the only way this could go down? That's it? Just that simple?

Well no, it could have been another GZim tough guy looking for a conflict that he would never ever ever seek out if he wasn't armed and prepped to kill.

He could have just called the police as well if he was really concerned. There is no sensible scenario that ends with this guy getting shot to death.

this. anyone who says otherwise is just waiting for their own chance to mess up their fruit of the looms shouting 'stop running away or I'll shoot' and happening upon someone alone who doesnt stop. and is probably black.

Your politics are showing; that is simply not true. It is entirely plausible that a normal well intentioned person saw a person running naked before the break of dawn, tried to offer help, and ended up in a violent confrontation due to the naked man's irrationality/violence after the naked man was in the car.

///There are many other plausible scenarios, some of which include the shooter being a cold blooded racist murderer. You should stop presuming so much.

Do your politics demand that you make shiat up like "the naked man was in the car"?


Of course not, though yours are well documented and ensure your commentary is viewed through the appropriate prism. I simply responded to the claim that there is no way this situation could reasonably result in the naked guy being shot.

There is.

As to what actually occurred I don't pretend to know. Especially not based on the very limited info in that article. Many others, including yourself, choose to make presumptions that support preconceived notions.
 
2013-10-15 12:33:17 PM

eurotrash: I find it peculiar that all questions/theories are focused on the victim, clearly Stand Your Ground is not a law that should have found it's way in to the legal system. It is effectively legalizing murder whichever way you cut it.

I have no issue with self defense laws but SYG is not that, the driver created the situation where a death was the outcome, SYG creates situations where people will die unnecessarily. I know it's Florida but why is this law not repealed immediately?


Most of the speculation is around the guy who was shot because more details have been released about him, which gives people something to talk about.     The shooter obviously lawyered up, which is exactly what he should do.

This idea that you can get away with murder by simply claiming stand your ground is a great soundbite, but is hogwash in practice.
There has to be evidence that would give a reasonable person enough reason to agree there was reason to fear for your life or great bodily harm.    You also have to consider the millions of incriminating factors that not only make you look bad--like the internet search you did a few months ago about the movie "a perfect murder"--but also those factors that are completely outside of your control that make the victim look good.

Stand your ground laws recognize that people are not only innocent until proven guilty, but also the last thing somebody needs after they had to to kill someone is get arrested, spend at least a few nights in jail, and even possibly lose their reputation, job and home.   Some go so far to say that the law is intended to stop these concerns from causing a person to hesitate in a true self-defense situation and wind up dead as a result.     As has already been mentioned, no charges being filed is not the same as no investigation being done.
 
2013-10-15 12:40:51 PM

FullMetalPanda: So is the family of the victim going to hire some mercenaries to torture his "friends" several months before letting they die of exposure?  I'm assuming they'll use one of the deli slicers on their fingers and toes first.  And a hot iron on standby to cauterize the wounds each time they slice.  Once the fingers and toes are gone, they'll move to the limbs.

Then they cut off their noses and tongues.  If males, castrate them.  If females, hot hair irons into their hoohaa.

After a month or so of this toss them on the side of the road with placards stating it was so worth it to play that joke on their "friend".


"Mr. Sulu, Remind me never to piss you off."

/Seriously, tone it down a bit.
//I agree that the so-called friends should be punished, but DAMN.
 
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