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(14 News Evansville)   Band director sends 350 texts to his 15 year old student in 9 days including "love you sweetheart" but it's okay because it was a growing father-daughter relationship not anything sexual   (14news.com) divider line 61
    More: Sick, child murder, Owensboro, Kenton County, alumni, teacher sent, executive directors  
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7648 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2013 at 2:46 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-15 12:09:11 AM
Nice.  She'll be bragging about that in the locker room.
 
2013-10-15 01:23:26 AM
It's Kentucky.  Father-daughter relationships are sexual.

bud-dum-tssshhh

/low hanging fruit
 
2013-10-15 01:27:39 AM
Over a nine day period, there were more than 690 text message between the two. About 350 of them were from Murray to the student; 340 from the student to Murray.

Takes two to tango. Unless all 340 of those texts were "Stop texting me".
 
2013-10-15 02:50:46 AM
How does her actual father feel about this supposed father-daughter relationship?
 
2013-10-15 02:56:35 AM
 
2013-10-15 02:57:46 AM
This band director, is it a man? Then hang him in acid on the Moon.
 
2013-10-15 03:03:44 AM
makeameme.org
 
2013-10-15 03:15:50 AM
They didn't say it was OK. They said it was "not criminal". Which may actually be the case if the text messages were not overtly sexual, and didn't include the sending/receiving of inappropriate photos. Apparently, nothing physical ever occurred between the two.

Creepy? Yes. Disturbing? Yes. Worthy of losing his job? Yes--which has apparently already happened. But if he hasn't actually broken any laws, then he shouldn't be prosecuted.
 
2013-10-15 03:22:05 AM
Was he teaching her the rusty trombone?
 
2013-10-15 03:24:07 AM
Love is in the wind
 
2013-10-15 03:28:23 AM

Quantum Apostrophe: This band director, is it a man? Then hang him in acid on the Moon.


Yeah. I'm not usually one for this kind of outrage yet I couldn't help but notice that this guy gets the "sick" tag for exchanging nonsexual texts, while a woman who rapes a 14 year old, forcibly detains him, cuts his arms and chokes him gets the less heinous "dumbass" tag.
 
2013-10-15 03:35:20 AM
Seems legit.
 
2013-10-15 03:43:14 AM

Fafai: Quantum Apostrophe: This band director, is it a man? Then hang him in acid on the Moon.

Yeah. I'm not usually one for this kind of outrage yet I couldn't help but notice that this guy gets the "sick" tag for exchanging nonsexual texts, while a woman who rapes a 14 year old, forcibly detains him, cuts his arms and chokes him gets the less heinous "dumbass" tag.


The number of (this.jpg) needed would get me a few days ban.
 
2013-10-15 03:46:35 AM

powhound: Love is in the wind


....Woodwind!
 
2013-10-15 04:55:09 AM
I don't know if you know this, but there ARE teachers out there who become so important and influential in the lives of their students, mostly because such students are often almost criminally neglected.
Such teachers who dare to love a student as if it were their own child, can be the saving grace for what could otherwise become a tragic tale of life.

I sincerely hope they're speaking the truth and that this student has finally found a loving role model who can help her become something else than a case for Child Services.
 
2013-10-15 05:08:01 AM

fusillade762: Over a nine day period, there were more than 690 text message between the two. About 350 of them were from Murray to the student; 340 from the student to Murray.

Takes two to tango. Unless all 340 of those texts were "Stop texting me".


So you're saying she was asking for it? Well that's OK then. Right?
 
2013-10-15 05:16:30 AM

ZurkisPhreek: I don't know if you know this, but there ARE teachers out there who become so important and influential in the lives of their students, mostly because such students are often almost criminally neglected.
Such teachers who dare to love a student as if it were their own child, can be the saving grace for what could otherwise become a tragic tale of life.


Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.
 
2013-10-15 05:27:22 AM
Alonjar:

Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.


Yup, that's more or less the crux of the problem. Since it CAN be misunderstood, everyone decides to "play it safe" and just go kill the whole thing.
It's pretty sad how many people think that if a grown man is communicating with a teenaged girl, he is definetely tryinig to get into her pants... I'd say that sort of view says more about the viewer than who's being viewed.
And yes, I do understand that that inappropriate things DO happen, but if we're always too afraid of the minuscule percentile of things going bad, how about the major percentile of things that go right? Too afraid of losing a dime to earn a dollar.
 
2013-10-15 05:27:28 AM
This guy will be lucky to find another job.

The smokin' hot young blonde female school teacher who broke up her marriage banging her student 2 years ago cleaned up with big bucks making the TV talk show circuit multiple times.

Maybe he should have wore a wig.
 
2013-10-15 05:31:46 AM

ZurkisPhreek: Alonjar:

Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.

Yup, that's more or less the crux of the problem. Since it CAN be misunderstood, everyone decides to "play it safe" and just go kill the whole thing.
It's pretty sad how many people think that if a grown man is communicating with a teenaged girl, he is definetely tryinig to get into her pants... I'd say that sort of view says more about the viewer than who's being viewed.
And yes, I do understand that that inappropriate things DO happen, but if we're always too afraid of the minuscule per ...


if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students. their own family might be shiat, but that's not his job. and it's only ever going to end one way. sucks, but he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.
 
2013-10-15 05:37:40 AM

ZurkisPhreek: It's pretty sad how many people think that if a grown man is communicating with a teenaged girl, he is definetely tryinig to get into her pants


This is just one of the problems with discrimination against young people (and women) -- since we don't treat them as real human beings we can't imagine them having real human relationships. It's okay to interact with them in the relationship prescribed by law (they must attend school) and required by your job (teachers must speak to students) but beyond that everything else is seen as exploitative or at least in appropriate, even if the same exact relationship among older people (or people of the same gender) with the same power dynamic (e.g. employee and supervisor) would be completely appropriate.

/ I have no information and therefore no comment on the particular relationship noted in the article
 
2013-10-15 05:38:59 AM

Lady J: if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students. their own family might be shiat, but that's not his job. and it's only ever going to end one way. sucks, but he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.


...because all men are rapists and will sex any 14 year old girl who wants his penis.  We simply dont have the ability to say no :(.

/Good thing I have a son and not a daughter, eh?  I'd probably be raping her friends.
 
2013-10-15 05:41:47 AM

Alonjar: Lady J: if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students. their own family might be shiat, but that's not his job. and it's only ever going to end one way. sucks, but he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.

...because all men are rapists and will sex any 14 year old girl who wants his penis.  We simply dont have the ability to say no :(.

/Good thing I have a son and not a daughter, eh?  I'd probably be raping her friends.


not what I said, but thanks for sharing
 
2013-10-15 05:42:56 AM

Lady J: if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students.


Because crushes are themselves harmful and must be avoided at all costs, even if they don't lead to inappropriate or exploitative behavior? I don't understand your reasoning here.
 
2013-10-15 05:47:41 AM

Lady J: a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students


You're conflating gender and sexual orientation.

And bear in mind that "underage female students" may not have a well-developed sense of their own sexual identity, let alone be willing to disclose their orientation in a manner that would allow their teachers to make reasonable decisions about which students must be kept at arm's length.
 
2013-10-15 05:49:11 AM

profplump: Lady J: a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students

You're conflating gender and sexual orientation.

And bear in mind that "underage female students" may not have a well-developed sense of their own sexual identity, let alone be willing to disclose their orientation in a manner that would allow their teachers to make reasonable decisions about which students must be kept at arm's length.


all students have to be kept at arms length. anything more than that is not a teacher's job, regardless of how innocent and noble the motivation
 
2013-10-15 05:53:27 AM

Alonjar: Lady J: if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students. their own family might be shiat, but that's not his job. and it's only ever going to end one way. sucks, but he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.

...because all men are rapists and will sex any 14 year old girl who wants his penis.  We simply dont have the ability to say no :(.

/Good thing I have a son and not a daughter, eh?  I'd probably be raping her friends.


I really can't read anything like that in Lady J's post. She's not saying men are rapists. She's saying that is the perception, and, unfortunately, especially when children are involved, perception is reality. She's not exactly wrong. It was pretty dumb of the guy to text "I love you" to a student whether there was anything sinister behind it or not. Men don't have all of the same privileges women do and it pays to acknowledge these kinds of restrictions if only to cover your own ass.
 
2013-10-15 06:04:27 AM

profplump: Lady J: if it's inevitable that some girl will develop an inapporpriate crush, then however innocent it all is, a male teacher should not develop close friendships with underage female students.

Because crushes are themselves harmful and must be avoided at all costs, even if they don't lead to inappropriate or exploitative behavior?.  I don't understand your reasoning here.


Everything I bolded is exactly right. Legally, this guy didn't do anything wrong and can't even be charged with anything. He's still going to lose his job and will probably have difficulty finding another one working with kids. This is the world we're living in. If you're a man it's smart to acknowledge your bogeyman status (attractive men less so) and play by the rules. If you don't you could get into trouble, justified or no.
 
ows
2013-10-15 06:41:48 AM
me thinks he read the article about the NVC music teacher who was "fired" for verbal sexual harrasment and as punishment collects full pay/benefits for 10 years sitting at home.
 
2013-10-15 07:02:16 AM

Jesus McSordid: fusillade762: Over a nine day period, there were more than 690 text message between the two. About 350 of them were from Murray to the student; 340 from the student to Murray.

Takes two to tango. Unless all 340 of those texts were "Stop texting me".

So you're saying she was asking for it? Well that's OK then. Right?


If the "it" you're talking about is conversation, then yes.
 
2013-10-15 07:03:11 AM
Hey you reading this. No, not you... no, yes -you over there: I love you sweetheart.

Now up the tempo.

Was that creepy?
 
2013-10-15 07:25:50 AM
I managed a retail store in my mid and late 20s, and I had good relationships with my high school-aged employees. I chatted with some of them via text or phone several times a week -- often griping about work, talking about mutual interests or things of the sort. I was a mentor to many of them, and they didn't feel ashamed to ask me for advice since I was 10 years older. And, at the same time, there was never any confusion that this was a "we're friends and co-workers" thing with no hint of a sexual relationship.

So, yeah, I get what the guy is saying. He may be perfectly innocent, and in 2013, this is a lot more normal than these kids' parents might realize.

But I'm going to guess that his school district has a "zero tolerance" policy on fraternizing with students, and that he crossed a line of appropriateness, however innocent it may have been. That wasn't criminal, but it cost him his job and his reputation as a teacher. He used poor judgment, and the hyper-vigilance about protecting children from teachers who prey upon them snared him, much like someone who spots a mouse trap and who says, "hey, free cheese!"  without thinking about the consequences.
 
2013-10-15 07:42:55 AM
I wonder how Nabokov felt about this?
 
2013-10-15 07:44:30 AM
Avuncular.
Look it up.
 
2013-10-15 08:22:55 AM

Alonjar: saw how much she was messaging him


Here's the thing: do not give your personal info to Students. No phone numbers, no nothing. If a student starts calling you inappropriately, put a block on the number / user id or whatever.

I don't see how this can be so hard.
 
2013-10-15 08:33:42 AM

Alonjar: ZurkisPhreek: I don't know if you know this, but there ARE teachers out there who become so important and influential in the lives of their students, mostly because such students are often almost criminally neglected.
Such teachers who dare to love a student as if it were their own child, can be the saving grace for what could otherwise become a tragic tale of life.

Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.


This is why I never taught.
 
2013-10-15 08:36:49 AM

Lady J: ZurkisPhreek: Alonjar:

Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.

Yup, that's more or less the crux of the problem. Since it CAN be misunderstood, everyone decides to "play it safe" and just go kill the whole thing.
It's pretty sad how many people think that if a grown man is communicating with a teenaged girl, he is definetely tryinig to get into her pants... I'd say that sort of view says more about the viewer than who's being viewed.
And yes, I do understand that that inappropriate things DO happen, but if we're always too afraid of the ...


I have a best friend that's a male high school science teacher. His philosophy is that he can give them a hug at graduation. Oh and if any student finds out his phone number he changes it. No before or after class "extra help' sessions. Oh and this all goes for female or male students.
 
2013-10-15 08:45:42 AM
What his lawyer is leaving out is a really creepy text from him to her at about 6:48am on a Thursday in August saying, "You know I'll smack that ass".

Yes. I have been following this on the radio. When the guy interviewed, he told the STUPIDEST reason for texting that. They did fire him and I hope he never lands a teaching job again. Maybe nothing physically happened between them, but it sure as hell seems this guy was grooming her.
 
2013-10-15 08:56:23 AM

Alonjar: ZurkisPhreek: I don't know if you know this, but there ARE teachers out there who become so important and influential in the lives of their students, mostly because such students are often almost criminally neglected.
Such teachers who dare to love a student as if it were their own child, can be the saving grace for what could otherwise become a tragic tale of life.

Unfortunately true.  My long time good friend and room mate (at the time) was a teacher and a basketball coach, and I saw first hand how the kids would end up seeking guidance from him and he would practically be a third (more attentive) parent in their life.   He was forced to resign because a female student developed a crush on him (this actually happens  all the time, its inevitable), and apparently talked too much to him via text message and/or facebook.  Some other girls on the team caught wind of the crush, checked her text history, saw how much she was messaging him and told a parent.   He never acted inappropriately, or said anything inappropriate.. didnt matter.  He was a man talking to a teenage girl.  and since he was her coach, he had authority over the kids on away games etc and they felt that compromised him somehow.

So.. a random parent made a complaint, and he got the choice... willfully resign for personal reasons and go teach somewhere else, or they'll black ball him and make some kind of formal misconduct paperwork follow him around haunting him for the rest of his life.  The girls parents actually showed up at the school and tried to plead for the coach, as the whole family had developed a strong rapport, but it didnt matter.  Once a "problem" came across admins desk, not taking action would open them up to future liability problems.

Just really sucks, truly awesome guy.  He really fell apart over the accusations, there was no way to defend himself.


Why is teacher exchanging cell phone #s with students?
 
2013-10-15 09:00:17 AM
Honestly, I was planning on being a teacher for a while (and was going to school for it), and while the chance of me getting in trouble for some misunderstanding wasn't the main reason I decided to switch my career path, it definitely was a factor.  It's just not worth the risk.  Which is really sad because a lot of students don't have any positive male role models.

Though this moron should have stopped the texting, and he certainly made it hard not to question his motives.
 
2013-10-15 09:03:00 AM
And for the record, just so there is no question, I am not condoning this guy's actions, just talking in the general sense of things.  Ever since parents became more and more helicopter parents, there's this feeling you are assumed to be a creep until you prove yourself not to be.
 
2013-10-15 09:33:30 AM
I'm sorry but he crossed the line with the "love you sweetheart" lines.  You can argue that he cared for her and was helping her but as soon as he added that line it makes the situation extremely hard for the school district to look past.  Had he not sent those lines he would have been giving a few days off with pay and had it noted in his file.

If you work with young kids and become their mentors that is fine and is a great thing.  Do not cross the line and send them stuff that could be taken as sexual or as you have feelings for them other than mentor/mentee.
 
2013-10-15 10:17:33 AM
CSB time:

The band director at my high school left suddenly while I was in 10th grade. Nobody new what happened, and rumors went around for a couple of weeks (it was the early 90s; no texting and no facebook/twitter; we actually had to talk to spread rumors!) until we found out he was fired and arrested for having sex with students. Then it came out that one of those students had killed herself a few years earlier. Then it came out that he had done the same thing at another school in another state and was fired for it, but nobody bothered to tell the local school district about that.

And that's why my high school ended up on one of the TV news shows (think it was 20/20) a few years later (while I was in college)
 
2013-10-15 10:33:59 AM
Who texts anybody 40 times a day for 9 straight days? Even if a true father with a 15 year old daughter did that I would be creeped out.
 
2013-10-15 10:49:33 AM

powhound: Love is in the wind


But TRUE love is in the brass.
 
2013-10-15 10:54:04 AM
This is just like a scene in "Mr. Holland Groped Us."
 
2013-10-15 11:51:05 AM
Lady J:  he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.

Please tell us which "sources of help and guidance" those might be.
 
2013-10-15 12:22:38 PM

The One True TheDavid: Lady J:  he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.

Please tell us which "sources of help and guidance" those might be.


Parents, aunt, uncle, grandparent, same gender counselor.
 
2013-10-15 01:14:00 PM
I am old and fat and not addicted to any "social media" site, but the "father-daughter" description caught my eye (my daughter is 30).  How about a survey of Farkettes - how many of you send your father a text message 40 times every day ???

/I think the guy is a perv
 
2013-10-15 02:06:15 PM

TNel: The One True TheDavid: Lady J:  he should be directing her to sources of help and guidance that can't be misconstrued.

Please tell us which "sources of help and guidance" those might be.

Parents, aunt, uncle, grandparent, same gender counselor.


Family is out because the idea here is that the child's family is not doing its job. Even a same gender counselor should not be saying "love you sweetheart". I think David's question was more like: when would "love you sweetheart" ever possibly not be misconstrued?

All of these are great examples of where to direct a troubled youth and you are bringing some good posts to the thread; not trying to sound snarky.
 
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