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(CNN)   Days since last Carnival Cruse line public relations nightmare set back to 0   (cnn.com) divider line 100
    More: Sad, Carnival Cruse, fairs, Miami-Dade Police Department, parental supervision, Carnival Cruise, cruise line, iReports  
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13838 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Oct 2013 at 12:44 AM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-15 02:39:33 AM

i upped my meds-up yours: Flakeloaf: Seriously, does yelling AAAAAAAAA actually help?

No, but yelling BBBBBBBBB would just freak people the fark out.


i43.tinypic.com

// from today's Oprah thread
 
2013-10-15 02:41:45 AM
Well, I certainly am glad they all prayed and saved the little boy... because without all that praying and bragging about all that praying, he would have surely died.

As for Carnival... really not seeing how it was in any way their fault; posted and known to not have lifeguards on duty.. posted no unsupervised crotchfruit under 13 and the parents just toss a 6yr old in there for a 10yr old to take care of... or not.  Way to go maaa!!!!

/prolly got another in the oven after the vacation anyhow... be easier to afford now
 
2013-10-15 02:46:35 AM

tetsoushima: Other than getting in the way, I'm not sure how an entire crowd of untrained people could have 'helped'. Also, the auto defib is only effective if the heart is in v-fib or v-tach. It sounded like a few people attempted to save the kid's life and unfortunately, they failed to do so. All the rest of the people in the crowd were just experiencing the anguish of watching a child die and being powerless to stop it. Maybe a little slack is in order?


As a matter of fact, this is exactly the circumstance where talking to your invisible friend is a good thing, instead of crowding around, getting in the way, and trying to "help".
 
2013-10-15 02:48:15 AM
Went on a Carnival cruise earlier this year. I don't understand how no one saw him before it came to this. The pools are always crowded wifh like a hundred people.
 
2013-10-15 02:52:25 AM
powhound:

/I don't really believe it went down on that cruise ship the way they said in tfa.
//There is no way that kid drowned if he was still alive and kicking on the surface when he was noticed. If he went under he wouldn't have been under for more than 10 or 20 seconds in that case.

~
~
Not only was TFA so light on facts that I was never gonna trust it anyway.... it had a bet each way.

Initially it said he was spotted by passengers, underwater. This was stated as a fact.

Then straight after TFA quoted a witness saying the boy was discovered by the DJ, struggling.

Farking hopeless.
 
2013-10-15 02:56:06 AM

Big Ramifications: powhound:

Not only was TFA so light on facts that I was never gonna trust it anyway.... it had a bet each way.

Initially it said he was spotted by passengers, underwater. This was stated as a fact.

Then straight after TFA quoted a witness saying the boy was discovered by the DJ, struggling.

Farking hopeless.
~

~
I should clarify that in drowning / near-drowning terminology,  struggling always means splashing about on the surface.
 
2013-10-15 03:04:38 AM
As a proud veteran of TWO cruises, around 5 and 10 years back, both with Carnival line, I can attest to two things about the pool(s) :

1. They are abso-farking-lutely jam-packed full of nasty, snotty, unruley children. They swarm like locusts around the rope to the deep end, and cluster like little screaming demons right where the slide injects you into the pool at 50 mph. Just BEGGING to be clobbered by anyone using the slide.

2. There is not an ounce of adult supervision for any of the little cretins.

Where in the hell are the parents while little Bobby is aiming to get his teeth kicked in from somebody hurtling into the water from the slide? Who knows!

Where is mom when little Suzy is exhausted and clinging to the rope for life? Mystery to me as well!
 
2013-10-15 03:16:10 AM

Dr. Manhattan: That's the great thing about international waters, the man can't tell you you need to have trifling things like lifeguards. Also, betting on monkey knife fights is perfectly kosher.


because every hotel pool in the US has a lifeguard
 
2013-10-15 03:39:28 AM
ijason
1. They are abso-farking-lutely jam-packed full of nasty, snotty, unruley children. They swarm like locusts around the rope to the deep end, and cluster like little screaming demons right where the slide injects you into the pool at 50 mph. Just BEGGING to be clobbered by anyone using the slide

the cruise ships are getting bigger and adding more and more pools and jazuzzis to address this problem. adult only areas are getting very popular.some new ships have private areas for the most expensive cabin classes.

2. There is not an ounce of adult supervision for any of the little cretins.
signs indicating this are posted around every pool.

cruise during the school year if you want to avoid kids practically on any line that isn't carnival, norwegian, royal carribean, or disney. book a line and cabin class with concierge and butler service if you want to avoid the masses. my elderly parents with mobility issues just hang out on their private balcony while taking scenic cruises like the panama canal and alaska. the butler serves them their meals in their room and gets them anything they want on the ship. the concierge makes sure their shore excursions go as smoothly as possible. ie... no waiting in line ever. haters gonna hate. either its too many kids or too many drunks and stupid first timers who think they own the ship or too many old people.
 
2013-10-15 03:49:30 AM
That's just Darwin at work. Parents didn't care to watch him, nor brother. Kid too stupid to scream or move around to call attention, and obviously didn't understood he needs air to live. Darwin!
 
2013-10-15 03:58:15 AM

SpdrJay: Kygz: The parents were also in the pool.

And the pool contained potassium benzoate.....


That's bad.
 
2013-10-15 04:20:49 AM
Passenger Deshaun Christian, 23, who witnessed the rescue, told CNN iReport that the incident caught people, enjoying music and dancing, off-guard.

Why even bother including a statement that's that much of a nothing?

Passenger Deshaun Christian, 23, who witnessed the rescue, told CNN iReport that everyone took the incident completely in stride. "A kid drowned or something I guess," said Christian. "Everyone was just, like, whatever."
 
GBB
2013-10-15 05:53:35 AM

starlost: ijason
1. They are abso-farking-lutely jam-packed full of nasty, snotty, unruley children. They swarm like locusts around the rope to the deep end, and cluster like little screaming demons right where the slide injects you into the pool at 50 mph. Just BEGGING to be clobbered by anyone using the slide

the cruise ships are getting bigger and adding more and more pools and jazuzzis to address this problem. adult only areas are getting very popular.some new ships have private areas for the most expensive cabin classes.

2. There is not an ounce of adult supervision for any of the little cretins.
signs indicating this are posted around every pool.

cruise during the school year if you want to avoid kids practically on any line that isn't carnival, norwegian, royal carribean, or disney. book a line and cabin class with concierge and butler service if you want to avoid the masses. my elderly parents with mobility issues just hang out on their private balcony while taking scenic cruises like the panama canal and alaska. the butler serves them their meals in their room and gets them anything they want on the ship. the concierge makes sure their shore excursions go as smoothly as possible. ie... no waiting in line ever. haters gonna hate. either its too many kids or too many drunks and stupid first timers who think they own the ship or too many old people.


I have been on 6 Disney cruises. We have never had issues with kids being kids.  Why?  Because they have their own deck, own play places on other decks, and their own pool.  Also, I prefer the smaller ships to the newer, larger ones.  The new ships have about the same sized amenities for roughly twice as many passengers.
 
2013-10-15 06:20:40 AM
Was there no lifeguard? Where were the parents?
 
2013-10-15 07:04:52 AM

optikeye: "It was a lot of chaos, people were going crazy, people were praying, they had their hands to the sky. It was a scary scene, seeing a little boy just lifeless,"

You could have done CPR or grabbed one of the automatic defib units instead of praying to your sky wizard...the scary scene is is they put their hands to the sky and prayed instead of doing SOMETHING.


i1.ytimg.com

images3.wikia.nocookie.net

//got nothing
 
2013-10-15 07:36:49 AM

Mad_Radhu: [blog.zap2it.com image 520x347]

Crap, I just reset that sign last night.


Heh.

I think the only reason they brought so many people back to the prison is they need people for zombies to kill. I guess at this point we are no longer following the comic line anymore. With them killing off Sophie and T-dog, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed off Rick. When I saw that kid I immediately named him Zombie Chow.

/And what was that roof made of? Did they just toss a roll of tar paper over a gap, throw some gravel on it and call it a day?
//not to mention, you can clearly see intact superstructure through the z-holes.
///That was the worst shelving unit I've ever seen. It was less structurally sound than the roof.
 
2013-10-15 07:39:26 AM
"It was a lot of chaos, people were going crazy, people were praying, they had their hands to the sky.

s3.amazonaws.com

They weren't praying, they were still dancing.
 
2013-10-15 07:50:43 AM

Phil Moskowitz: Boy, I bet they're happy they saved that few grand a cruise not supplying lifeguards.


to be fair, Carnival makes it clear that if you have kids, you need to be watching them in or near the pools.

No, there are no lifeguards, but there are employees who usually keep an eye on what's going on in the pool.

/kinda hard who to blame more here. Carnival or the kid's parents
//I'm more focused on the poor kid drowned in front of his brother...
 
2013-10-15 07:59:01 AM

miniflea: optikeye: "It was a lot of chaos, people were going crazy, people were praying, they had their hands to the sky. It was a scary scene, seeing a little boy just lifeless,"

You could have done CPR or grabbed one of the automatic defib units instead of praying to your sky wizard...the scary scene is is they put their hands to the sky and prayed instead of doing SOMETHING.

I saw this video once where some kid was missing on a beach.  The mother (I assume) was pacing back and forth in a really marvelous show of wailing and waving her arms around and screaming shiat like oh help god help why won't anyone help.  Devoid of context it could have been a ridiculous parody of a distraught mother.  In the background you could clearly see most of the men around (it was pretty crowded) organizing a search.  They kept trying to get a description of the kid but the idiot woman just wouldn't calm down.  Long story short, the kid was found, and the woman fell all over herself thanking Jesus instead of the guys kept their heads.  I wanted to punch her in the face for her complete and utter uselessness.


Over Labor Day weekend, I went with my family (including three children under the age of five) to a small amusement park. I briefly stepped away to get myself something to eat and drink. While I was eating, a scene similar to what you described unfolded: mom loses her kid and is too busy freaking out to give an accurate description. The kid was eventually found because someone noticed an unattended child crying next to a tree.

Maybe it's because I grew up in a household of first responders (police and medical), but it's much better for all involved to stay calm and focused during the incident. If you have any kind of emergency training, focus on that. If you don't, remain calm and alert and out of the way. The time to fall apart is after the incident has been resolved.
 
2013-10-15 08:00:14 AM

Dr. Manhattan: That's the great thing about international waters, the man can't tell you you need to have trifling things like lifeguards. Also, betting on monkey knife fights is perfectly kosher.


Have you ever once been to a hotel in the middle of the United States that had a lifeguard?  Outside of those designated as water parks, I haven't.  What's wrong with that those trifling old-fashioned ideas like "parental responsibility?"  Maybe Carnival should also provide staff to be on the buffet line watching out for fatties who may need the Heimlich.  Actually, they should probably just stay docked so as to ensure nobody falls over and bruises themselves in heavy seas.
 
2013-10-15 08:05:49 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: That's pretty sad. Losing a child to drowning while on vacation is one of the worst things that can happen to a family.


stream1.gifsoup.com
 
2013-10-15 08:11:46 AM
i40.tinypic.com
 
2013-10-15 08:44:01 AM

Prof. Frink: SpdrJay: Kygz: The parents were also in the pool.

And the pool contained potassium benzoate.....

That's bad.


They should get a brain sample.
 
2013-10-15 09:00:25 AM
Goes on cruises all the time, the thing that makes them miserable is parents that think everyone else is responsible for their kids.

Sorry their kid died, but they should have been less worried about having their cocktails, and more worried about watching their kids.

Oh.. and defibrillator, on a wet kid.. not sure that's the best idea either... I can see the news article about the people that were all huddled around the kid standing in the pool of water when the defibrillator was used..
 
2013-10-15 09:37:12 AM
The idiots talking about how a defib could have saved the day know absofarkinglutely nothing about defibs except what you see on the television.
 
2013-10-15 09:48:19 AM

pippi longstocking: That's just Darwin at work. Parents didn't care to watch him, nor brother. Kid too stupid to scream or move around to call attention, and obviously didn't understood he needs air to live. Darwin!


I agree with you.  100% on the parents and this is pure Darwinism at work.  I would even call it child abandonment and press charges on the parents.  It's ridiculous to leave kids that young alone in a pool and this family paid the price for their own stupidity.
 
2013-10-15 10:07:23 AM

The Pope of Manwich Village: Carnival Curse


Is there anything this "cruise line" can't do?
 
2013-10-15 10:26:04 AM

Hospitaller: The Pope of Manwich Village: Carnival Curse

Is there anything this "cruise line" can't do?


Stay under its deductible?
 
2013-10-15 10:34:58 AM

optikeye: "It was a lot of chaos, people were going crazy, people were praying, they had their hands to the sky. It was a scary scene, seeing a little boy just lifeless,"

You could have done CPR or grabbed one of the automatic defib units instead of praying to your sky wizard...the scary scene is is they put their hands to the sky and prayed instead of doing SOMETHING.


Just had to get that in huh??? Reading how does it work? It states people were working on the child. as "others" were praying.
But you're right maybe the others should have pushed their way into the crowed to take their turn on the kid, maybe jumped on his chest shoving the others out of the way or flipping a few tables over would have helped.
 
2013-10-15 10:46:12 AM
How is this the ships fault? Sounds like natural selection to me.
 
2013-10-15 11:05:54 AM
And to think I was just on that boat a short time ago.. From what I saw, don't expect the staff to help.. they are to busy trying to push drinks on people as much as possible.

As for defibs? I don't think I actually saw one single one of those device's when I was onboard at all. It's not like they are not easy to spot, but I do not recall seeing 1 anywhere on the lido deck or any other deck.
 
2013-10-15 11:14:03 AM

GBB: I have been on 6 Disney cruises. We have never had issues with kids being kids. Why? Because they have their own deck, own play places on other decks, and their own pool. Also, I prefer the smaller ships to the newer, larger ones. The new ships have about the same sized amenities for roughly twice as many passengers.


Surely you have to deal with them during meal times though.  It's not like kids have their own private restaurant on Disney cruises.  And if you've ever eaten at a "family restaurant" or one that caters to kids, you know how noisy and disruptive they can be.  I was at a restaurant last week where there was just a couple of families nearby and I was wishing for noise-cancelling headphones by the end of the meal.
 
2013-10-15 11:28:58 AM

nyrB: GBB: I have been on 6 Disney cruises. We have never had issues with kids being kids. Why? Because they have their own deck, own play places on other decks, and their own pool. Also, I prefer the smaller ships to the newer, larger ones. The new ships have about the same sized amenities for roughly twice as many passengers.

Surely you have to deal with them during meal times though.  It's not like kids have their own private restaurant on Disney cruises.  And if you've ever eaten at a "family restaurant" or one that caters to kids, you know how noisy and disruptive they can be.  I was at a restaurant last week where there was just a couple of families nearby and I was wishing for noise-cancelling headphones by the end of the meal.



Of course there's kids at mealtimes, but they try to seat like with like - so families with kids are seated together and those without are matched up as well. If you take the later dinner seating there tends to be fewer kids overall.

Disney is also really good about chasing kids out of the adults-only area. We took a Mediterranean cruise on the Magic this summer and had no issues.
 
2013-10-15 11:31:55 AM

doglover: They coukd at least have offered up his heart to Quezocottal.


+2 for context, -1 for spelling
 
2013-10-15 11:36:11 AM

optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.


You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.
 
2013-10-15 11:41:04 AM

Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.


Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)
 
2013-10-15 11:43:48 AM

epic_biatch: Of course there's kids at mealtimes, but they try to seat like with like - so families with kids are seated together and those without are matched up as well. If you take the later dinner seating there tends to be fewer kids overall.


I wasn't seated with any kids the other week either, but the ambient noise in the restaurant drove me nuts.  The constant shrieking is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.  You do have a point with the later dinner seating though.  I doubt most people would willingly want their kids eating dinner at 8pm.  Personally, however, I also do not want to be eating dinner that late at night.
 
2013-10-15 11:49:21 AM

nyrB: Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.

Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)


No...someone has taken a CPR course.

citation
 
GBB
2013-10-15 11:54:51 AM

nyrB: GBB: I have been on 6 Disney cruises. We have never had issues with kids being kids. Why? Because they have their own deck, own play places on other decks, and their own pool. Also, I prefer the smaller ships to the newer, larger ones. The new ships have about the same sized amenities for roughly twice as many passengers.

Surely you have to deal with them during meal times though.  It's not like kids have their own private restaurant on Disney cruises.  And if you've ever eaten at a "family restaurant" or one that caters to kids, you know how noisy and disruptive they can be.  I was at a restaurant last week where there was just a couple of families nearby and I was wishing for noise-cancelling headphones by the end of the meal.


6 cruises with them, never had an issue with noisy kids at dinner.  I think Disney does a pretty good job of entertaining them and running them out of energy during the day so that by dinner time and later, they no longer have that pent up energy.  Especially if you leave them in the care of Disney staff.  Their lunches and snacks have a lot less sugar and carbs than what they are probably used to, so they end up a little better behaved throughout the cruise.

On a side note, the only real issue I've ever witness was a kid that stuck his finger into the elevator door trap while the elevator doors were opening.  He got his finger stuck in there pretty good and started screaming.  All was good, pry the door back a smidge and no need for amputation.  He was 4ish-5ish years old.
 
2013-10-15 12:01:33 PM

Literally Addicted: nyrB: Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.

Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)

No...someone has taken a CPR course.



I was actually referring to optikeye.  One of the big problems with tv is that it provides a false sense of reality - to the extent where it could potentially kill someone.
 
2013-10-15 12:16:58 PM

nyrB: Literally Addicted: nyrB: Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.

Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)

No...someone has taken a CPR course.


I was actually referring to optikeye.  One of the big problems with tv is that it provides a false sense of reality - to the extent where it could potentially kill someone.


My bad.  I'm used to folks hopping all over you in this site.

...then again, I did hop all over optikeye, so I guess I was expecting karma to circle back and smack me...
 
2013-10-15 12:20:07 PM

MythDragon: Mad_Radhu: [blog.zap2it.com image 520x347]

Crap, I just reset that sign last night.

Heh.

I think the only reason they brought so many people back to the prison is they need people for zombies to kill. I guess at this point we are no longer following the comic line anymore. With them killing off Sophie and T-dog, I wouldn't be surprised if they killed off Rick. When I saw that kid I immediately named him Zombie Chow.

/And what was that roof made of? Did they just toss a roll of tar paper over a gap, throw some gravel on it and call it a day?
//not to mention, you can clearly see intact superstructure through the z-holes.
///That was the worst shelving unit I've ever seen. It was less structurally sound than the roof.


From my understanding they've been only loosely following the comics anyway; I haven't bought them but I read some of the wikipedia article out of curiosity (comics are expensive, yo).

I'm not sure what they build the roofs of big-box stores out of, but you may not be far off. Every time a tornado or hurricane hits a Walmart or Home Depot you get to see the peeled-back shell of the building blasted off. Add to that that in the show's time it's been what, two years? At least, I remember mention of two winters so far. Two years with no maintenance might take a toll on a shoddily built building, especially if there's no or blocked roof drainage. There's a show called 'life after people' on Netflix that does simulations of how weathering will affect buildings in that kind of situation, you should check it out.

/you may now return to your regularly scheduled cruise ship thread, sorry
 
2013-10-15 12:25:42 PM

nyrB: Literally Addicted: nyrB: Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.

Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)

No...someone has taken a CPR course.


I was actually referring to optikeye.  One of the big problems with tv is that it provides a false sense of reality - to the extent where it could potentially kill someone.


I think anybody with the most basic CPR training is well aware that an auto defibrillator can't do much beyond shocking the heart out of v-tach or v-fib.  Even if you put the thing on there, it wouldn't activate if the heart wasn't in either of those states.  It's a cool piece of tech, but they would have had to get the heart into one of those states with chest compression before it would have done any good.  Manual models that professionals use have more functions, such as an emergency pacemaker, but if the heart is a systolic, you might as well use it to cook hot dogs.  

/I'll get the buns.
 
2013-10-15 01:17:54 PM

nyrB: Literally Addicted: optikeye: A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

You think using a defibrillator on someone just pulled out of a pool is a good idea?  Think this through.

Someone's been watching too many tv shows  ;)


Nope.  Somebody was a combat medic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17945819

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12879378
 
2013-10-15 01:20:00 PM
In an e-mail to CNN, Carnival Cruise spokeswoman Joyce Oliva said the company does not have lifeguards on duty at its pools, and parental supervision is required for children under 13.

Are you farking kidding me?

Seriously, other cruise lines, like Disney and Royal Carribbean use lifeguards as a matter of course. The very idea that Carnival has no friggin' lifeguards on duty for the pools on their ships should be seen as alarming - if they're willing to cut pool lifeguards, what in the hell else did they decide was a "non-essential" safety or security measure?

Phil Moskowitz: Boy, I bet they're happy they saved that few grand a cruise not supplying lifeguards.


Exactly.
 
2013-10-15 01:46:37 PM
Meh... I never really cared much for lifeguards...  They are always telling you to stop running around the pool, and to observe the no diving signs...  fark that noise!
 
2013-10-15 02:07:36 PM
pagead2.googlesyndication.com
Pop up add on page.
 
2013-10-15 02:47:20 PM

optikeye: The kid was alive at that point. Struggling in the water. The DJ Spotted the boy. The rest of the crowd expected 'someone else to help" and none happened...it was guest that pulled kid out. The DJ booth at these pools are not really that close..the DJ could have said something--I don't know.

The KID was alive when the DJ stopped the music and alerted the crowd. Then the crowd started praying. Except the one guest that jumped to get the body.  The article doesn't mention automatic defib units which should be available in pool areas and have all the staff trained on their availability and locations.

A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.


Let me get this straight: you think that an automatic defib unit would have saved a drowning victim.

Do you even know what drowning entails?
 
2013-10-15 02:58:38 PM

NEDM: optikeye: The kid was alive at that point. Struggling in the water. The DJ Spotted the boy. The rest of the crowd expected 'someone else to help" and none happened...it was guest that pulled kid out. The DJ booth at these pools are not really that close..the DJ could have said something--I don't know.

The KID was alive when the DJ stopped the music and alerted the crowd. Then the crowd started praying. Except the one guest that jumped to get the body.  The article doesn't mention automatic defib units which should be available in pool areas and have all the staff trained on their availability and locations.

A short drowning situation where a DJ saw a kid in distress, and automatic defibs should have been survivable for a young child.

Let me get this straight: you think that an automatic defib unit would have saved a drowning victim.

Do you even know what drowning entails?


I've been curious what the whole defibrillator talk was all about.  I guess if they were able to clear the victim's airway but were not able to detect a heart beat then hooking them up to an AED while performing CPR wouldn't hurt.  If the machine detected V-fib or V-Tach then it would advise shock.  Otherwise it's a fool's errand but if it makes people feel better then they can hook it the hell up and scratch their heads when it does nothing.
 
2013-10-16 03:28:37 AM
"Ten people die every day from unintentional drowning in the United States, making it the fifth-leading cause of unintentional injury death, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention."

As opposed to he "intentionally" drowned himself?
 
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