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(CNN)   China, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Germany and Singapore: Raise the debt ceiling NOW, a default by the United States would have a profound effect on our economies. This GOP scheme is going to tank the dollar as the world reserve currency   ( money.cnn.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, United States, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Singapore, Americanize, action alert, Christine Lagarde, reserve currency  
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6875 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Oct 2013 at 9:16 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-14 12:09:10 PM  

Ambivalence: GORDON: I remember when Bush was evil and the President was expected to work with a Congress of the other political party, not the other way around.  But, then, that was like 8 years ago.  Times are different now.

Yes, because democrats threatened a shutdown and default under bush. Oh and threatened to impeach.

Or not.

False equivalence is false.


I remember when democrats said Bush couldn't possibly be American because he was black. Bush must have been born in Kenya... in the bush perhaps.
 
2013-10-14 12:09:41 PM  

you have pee hands: The_Original_Roxtar: we haven't had a balanced budget since Clinton was in office. Also, listing all your stats as a percentage of GDP is a bit misleading.

Why?


Because he went to a top 5 school. Where is that guy that can explain it in coconuts?
 
2013-10-14 12:12:37 PM  

you have pee hands: itsaidwhat: Libtard. Look at the numbers. Entitlements are killing America. Wealthy taking social security, abled taking disability, creating children where no family exists to raise them. And before you put a face on my opinions (you racist) be aware that I welcome people of all colors, national origin, religion and sexual orientation to join me on the work line to support "the working poor". You have no idea how I made it to where I am but it starts with self respect and respect for others - including their beliefs and their property. When libtards seek to take away either, they will meet with the harsh reality of my rights. Yes, please - face me - and tell me you deserve what I have earned. You will get what my conscience thinks you deserve.

You might not be racist but you're certainly lacking in perspective and incapable of empathy, and you're also parroting taking points that were debunked in the 80s.


Which 80's. 1980's? 1880's? 1480's. Self-reliance has never been debunked. As far as empathy, your opinion/perspective is not the yardstick of my empathy. Fark is full of words and devoid of action. No one on Fark is helping anyone that really needs help. It's not a substitute for feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, aiding the sick, etc. So don't fool yourself into thinking that you are forwarding the great cause of humanity here by preaching the evils of success. You just look like a tool of the current administration. And don't you have a Healthcare Navigator Job to get to?
 
2013-10-14 12:13:26 PM  

pxlboy: I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.


Not everyone. We will be able to pay off our house in five years, so we got 5/2 ARM, based on a 30 year loan, at  anout 2.75%, substantially below what conventional mortgages are costing. Make double payments every month and the principal drops fast. We'll never see the 2-point increase.
 
2013-10-14 12:16:39 PM  

you have pee hands: The_Original_Roxtar: we haven't had a balanced budget since Clinton was in office. Also, listing all your stats as a percentage of GDP is a bit misleading.

Why?


jst3p: Also, listing all your stats as a percentage of GDP is a bit misleading.

As a percentage of GDP is the only measure that matters. Any other way lacks context.

Have you ever taken a macroecon class?


A.) because the federal government does not own all of the GDP
B.) because some federal spending contributes to GDP
listing with federal spending per capita and as a percentage of federal tax revenue gives a more complete picture.
 
2013-10-14 12:17:21 PM  

Speaker2Animals: pxlboy: I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.

Not everyone. We will be able to pay off our house in five years, so we got 5/2 ARM, based on a 30 year loan, at  anout 2.75%, substantially below what conventional mortgages are costing. Make double payments every month and the principal drops fast. We'll never see the 2-point increase.


Do payment lapses increase the rate or is it something else?
 
2013-10-14 12:18:05 PM  
DubtodaIll: I mean you if want to throw labels on things to make you feel better about your own positions that's fine but don't assume what I'm SO concerned about.

Will do!

I don't want the U.S. to default however it may be something that happens that turns out to be a positive influence on the way the country is ran.

And this is why.The idea that defaulting does anything useful is absolutely foolish. It has nothing to do with resolving our political issues regarding the budget especially if there are groups of people who think it's a good idea.

When will the debt be so big that we have to do something about it? 20 trillion? 50 trillion?

Not for a long time. Debt is not inherently bad and big numbers don't mean anything. If our country has a GDP of 500 trillion then a debt of 50 trillion is inconsequential.
 
2013-10-14 12:18:49 PM  

pxlboy: I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.


imgc.allpostersimages.com
 
2013-10-14 12:18:49 PM  
just keep the reckoning away a few more years ... ME degree with math minor and inventions in the wings

/good job not around here....
 
2013-10-14 12:19:27 PM  

itsaidwhat: Dimensio: RickN99: SpectroBoy: The Dem's position is "Pass a clean bill to prevent the impending disaster"
The GOP position is "No funding until we get our other demands met too."

Dems: Pass a clean bill and fund the entire government.
Obama:  We won't negotiate with the GOP about government funding until the GOP funds the entire government.
GOP:  We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

GOP: We've passed bills to fund some parts of the government that we don't have an issue with.  Let's negotiate about the other parts.
Dems:  Nope. Meet 100% of our funding demands or nothing gets funded.
Obama:  Gonna veto them if they get to me.  Fund the entire government; then we'll negotiate about the funding.
GOP:  We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

Currently proposed government funding levels are a direct result of Speaker John Boehner receiving "98%" of what he wanted. Current funding levels, therefore, are at Republican-desired levels.

The original Republican-passed spending bill did not change government funding levels; it served only to eliminate an existing law that they did not like, despite that law having been signed into law three years ago, surviving a Constitutional challenge and effectively surviving voter referendum when the President who championed it defeated a challenger who promised to repeal it.

Your argument is a lie and you are a liar for making it.

"You (Libtard Santa Claus and your free money give-away-world policies) sit on a throne of lies!"


And smells like beef and cheese
 
2013-10-14 12:21:04 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: Section 4 of the 14th amendment makes it legal.

Great. It's still impossible.


no, its not.
 
2013-10-14 12:22:40 PM  

Joe Blowme: no, its not.


Hard to know who to believe here. The IG of the Treasury or Some Guy On The Internet Because He Says So. Tough call.
 
2013-10-14 12:24:49 PM  

Speaker2Animals: Clemkadidlefark: The Republican Party began as Progressives.

If you think Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt wouldn't take massive dumps on what passes for today's GOP, you don't know sh*t about history.


woah there big shooter, i believe it was Hoover who had strange sex fetishes like you are describing
 
2013-10-14 12:25:32 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: no, its not.

Hard to know who to believe here. The IG of the Treasury or Some Guy On The Internet Because He Says So. Tough call.


well, i did stay at a Holliday Inn last night
 
2013-10-14 12:27:43 PM  

pxlboy: Speaker2Animals: pxlboy: I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.

Not everyone. We will be able to pay off our house in five years, so we got 5/2 ARM, based on a 30 year loan, at  anout 2.75%, substantially below what conventional mortgages are costing. Make double payments every month and the principal drops fast. We'll never see the 2-point increase.

Do payment lapses increase the rate or is it something else?


No, what the 5/2 means is the rate is frozen for five years at which point it can adjust upwards by a maximum of two points. My meaning was that we'll have it paid off before that happens.
 
2013-10-14 12:27:54 PM  
Oh shiat. I better buy that big TV that I deserve but can't afford now instead of later.
 
2013-10-14 12:30:40 PM  

Speaker2Animals: pxlboy: Speaker2Animals: pxlboy: I never understood why anyone would think an adjustable interest rate is a good idea. The rate goes up (and probably higher than is affordable) and you get hosed.

Not everyone. We will be able to pay off our house in five years, so we got 5/2 ARM, based on a 30 year loan, at  anout 2.75%, substantially below what conventional mortgages are costing. Make double payments every month and the principal drops fast. We'll never see the 2-point increase.

Do payment lapses increase the rate or is it something else?

No, what the 5/2 means is the rate is frozen for five years at which point it can adjust upwards by a maximum of two points. My meaning was that we'll have it paid off before that happens.


Oh, okay. Good on you for it.
 
2013-10-14 12:31:02 PM  
Republicans are so f*cking stupid. It's amazing what you morons will do to try to repeal the will of the American people.
 
2013-10-14 12:31:18 PM  

AeAe: Both sides are equally at fault, right?


How are they not?

Lets pretend for a moment that this is not terrorism or a hostage situation, there are no guns to anyones head and no suicide bombs, and that this is not a die hard movie or some fantastical battle of good VS evil.

For this one example, let us look at this like two angry business partners in a room who are shouting at each other, but they need to reach a deal.   One cannot have the other one arrested or thrown out or legally killed.  Maybe one can be voted out of his seat but that option is months down the road. They've brought a bunch of random spectators in to fill the room, but none of them can really do anything but add to the shouting.

A deal must still be reached between the partners and it must be reached now.
If neither side bends then, yes, it is both their faults.

Both of them have put petty wants ahead of the businesses needs.
Maybe one shouldn't have had as much say as he did, maybe the particular deal they are arguing over was a bad idea from the start, but in the end its a trivial difference.  Either they find a way to work together or they don't.

All of the snickering from the peanut gallery doesn't mean much unless people with means become directlyinvolved at the table.
 
2013-10-14 12:33:45 PM  

jst3p: itsaidwhat: VendorXeno: itsaidwhat: Obama and his libtard sycophants are equally to blame by representing the do-nothing leaches of society.

Close to 90% of the people receiving some kind of federal assistance fall into the categories of working poor, retired or disabled, including veterans and the elderly, people who put in their time. To call them do-nothing leaches [sic] is one of the lowest! most insulting and disgusting lies a person can spread about their fellow citizens. When itsaidwhat employs this lie it demonstrates him to be a dishonest, stupid, hateful human being, one of the worst of us. This is the face of the right wing now, this ignorant malice and selfish dishonesty.

Yes. I work for a living. That makes me ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest.

I am rubber, you are glue...

It is your opinions as presented on this website that makes you look ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest, not the fact that you work for a living.


Funny, it's because I work for a living, opinions like yours are irrelevant and always will be.
 
2013-10-14 12:37:34 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: you have pee hands: The_Original_Roxtar: we haven't had a balanced budget since Clinton was in office. Also, listing all your stats as a percentage of GDP is a bit misleading.

Why?

jst3p: Also, listing all your stats as a percentage of GDP is a bit misleading.

As a percentage of GDP is the only measure that matters. Any other way lacks context.

Have you ever taken a macroecon class?

A.) because the federal government does not own all of the GDP
B.) because some federal spending contributes to GDP
listing with federal spending per capita and as a percentage of federal tax revenue gives a more complete picture.


www.mygovcost.org

One of those is improving too, I can't find the data for the other (although I didn't spend much time looking).

In short, we are working on it but these things can't get fixed overnight.
 
2013-10-14 12:38:30 PM  

itsaidwhat: jst3p: itsaidwhat: VendorXeno: itsaidwhat: Obama and his libtard sycophants are equally to blame by representing the do-nothing leaches of society.

Close to 90% of the people receiving some kind of federal assistance fall into the categories of working poor, retired or disabled, including veterans and the elderly, people who put in their time. To call them do-nothing leaches [sic] is one of the lowest! most insulting and disgusting lies a person can spread about their fellow citizens. When itsaidwhat employs this lie it demonstrates him to be a dishonest, stupid, hateful human being, one of the worst of us. This is the face of the right wing now, this ignorant malice and selfish dishonesty.

Yes. I work for a living. That makes me ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest.

I am rubber, you are glue...

It is your opinions as presented on this website that makes you look ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest, not the fact that you work for a living.

Funny, it's because I work for a living, opinions like yours are irrelevant and always will be.



I hope your job doesn't require intellectual honesty, objectivity, or logical thought.
 
2013-10-14 12:41:57 PM  
"This GOP scheme is going to tank the dollar as the world reserve currency"


So it's going just as planned, then?
 
2013-10-14 12:42:13 PM  
If you ever wondered if world economics was a sport, this should answer your question.

Somebody finally mentioned what this theatre is all about, IMHO.
The Dollar.

Not health insurance.
Not GOP stupidity, or DFL.

But, only thing I AM SURE of, it is all a lie.
 
2013-10-14 12:43:53 PM  

ghare: jst3p: itsaidwhat: ....It is your opinions as presented on this website that makes you look ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest, not the fact that you work for a living.

For opinions to be valid, they have to be based in fact. Otherwise, they are not opinions, they are hallucinations.


Hallucination? Ha. It's better than the delusions of your libtard kum-ba-ya everyone needs a participation trophy socialism.

We'll see who's living the dream when the shiat hits the fan - those self-sufficient persons that have worked themselves into the position to give help to others OR those that have only ever "prepared" themselves to be helped.
 
2013-10-14 12:45:29 PM  

itsaidwhat: ghare: jst3p: itsaidwhat: ....It is your opinions as presented on this website that makes you look ignorant, malicious, selfish and dishonest, not the fact that you work for a living.

For opinions to be valid, they have to be based in fact. Otherwise, they are not opinions, they are hallucinations.

Hallucination? Ha. It's better than the delusions of your libtard kum-ba-ya everyone needs a participation trophy socialism.

We'll see who's living the dream when the shiat hits the fan - those self-sufficient persons that have worked themselves into the position to give help to others OR those that have only ever "prepared" themselves to be helped.


Oh, you are one of those.
 
2013-10-14 12:46:10 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: Section 4 of the 14th amendment makes it legal.

Great. It's still impossible.


And the government indefinitely continuing to spend more money than it takes in as revenue and borrowing to make up the difference is possible?

Obama and the Democrats' fiscal plan will, eventually, destroy the nation's creditworthiness and bring about the catastrophe they're crying about.  This is not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty.

We can either take our lumps now, while the country can still (granted, barely) afford them, or we can continue on our path and surely be destroyed as a nation.  Your choice.
 
2013-10-14 12:47:47 PM  

itsaidwhat: Which 80's. 1980's? 1880's? 1480's. Self-reliance has never been debunked. As far as empathy, your opinion/perspective is not the yardstick of my empathy. Fark is full of words and devoid of action. No one on Fark is helping anyone that really needs help. It's not a substitute for feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, aiding the sick, etc. So don't fool yourself into thinking that you are forwarding the great cause of humanity here by preaching the evils of success. You just look like a tool of the current administration. And don't you have a Healthcare Navigator Job to get to?


No man is an island entire of itself.  You don't seem to know what empathy is, or you'd realize that your objectivist dreck shows a lack of it.  And where, exactly, was I "preaching the evils of success"?  You should probably learn what's actually written before you worry yourself too much about my employability.
 
2013-10-14 12:49:12 PM  

Mouser: Obama and the Democrats' fiscal plan will, eventually, destroy the nation's creditworthiness and bring about the catastrophe they're crying about. This is not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty.


No it isn't.
 
2013-10-14 12:49:17 PM  

Mouser: And the government indefinitely continuing to spend more money than it takes in as revenue and borrowing to make up the difference is possible?


See the charts and graphs I posted in this thread and see how that this trend is reversing not getting worse. I know they look like pictures, but they contain actual information.
 
2013-10-14 12:49:43 PM  

Director_Mr: If you are blaming one side any more than the other you aren't paying attention.


You are stupid. "Both sides are the same!" is stupid.

The shutdown, the threat of default, these are 100% the fault of the Republican party.
 
2013-10-14 12:51:40 PM  

Mouser: Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: Section 4 of the 14th amendment makes it legal.

Great. It's still impossible.

And the government indefinitely continuing to spend more money than it takes in as revenue and borrowing to make up the difference is possible?

Obama and the Democrats' fiscal plan will, eventually, destroy the nation's creditworthiness and bring about the catastrophe they're crying about.  This is not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty.

We can either take our lumps now, while the country can still (granted, barely) afford them, or we can continue on our path and surely be destroyed as a nation.  Your choice.


The debt isn't nearly as unmanageable as you make it. Stop buying fancy military hardware for like 5 years and the debt is gone. Or pick your poison, really.

It is NOT so much debt that the GOP should shut down the farking country and threaten to default. Not even close. It would take 100x this much debt for that to be reasonable.
 
2013-10-14 12:52:13 PM  

Speaker2Animals: Clemkadidlefark: The Republican Party began as Progressives.

If you think Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt wouldn't take massive dumps on what passes for today's GOP, you don't know sh*t about history.


Teddy Roosevelt would be seen as liberal today.  The dude helped reform our food and drug practices despite the fact that the new enforcement would cost business owners profit, and he used government funding to start and maintain national parks.   The Tea Party would HATE "big government" getting involved with job creators.
 
2013-10-14 12:52:40 PM  

The_Original_Roxtar: A.) because the federal government does not own all of the GDP
B.) because some federal spending contributes to GDP
listing with federal spending per capita and as a percentage of federal tax revenue gives a more complete picture.


Listing federal spending as a percentage of federal tax revenue is going to give you a very spiky picture because tax revenue and expenditure don't and shouldn't move together.  The government spends more on the social net during bad times and less in good times while tax revenues obviously do the opposite.  For them to track together you'd have to practice increased spending during economic high times and austerity during recessions which is going to cause a big boom-bust cycle.
 
2013-10-14 12:53:00 PM  

blindio: screw it, so what if a couple thousand people die because of the shut down, at least we didn't have to raise taxes on millionaires to balance the budget.  I mean, do you have any idea how many millionaires die each year because they are taxed?  I mean, if some 40 year old is a deadbeat, his or her kids deserve to die, If they don't like it, maybe they shouldn't have decided to be born.  They can get jobs, I mean, there aren't any labor laws for 6 year old kids right?  I hear they make great miners.


People will die, rich or poor. What we are debating is life and specifically, comfort. And, how some people refuse to lift a finger to contribute to their own comfort, and instead, insisting that to be an obligation of the wealthy. Fark that notion.

If I didn't know so many immigrants that came to this country as penniless refugees, that worked two and three jobs for years to get through school, support a family here and in their home country and that now can drive Lexus and Mercedes YET STILL work two or three jobs, then I would have sympathy for the "working poor". Lazy people deserve their discomfort.
 
2013-10-14 12:53:16 PM  
Instead of raising the "debt ceiling", why not lower the "debt"?

All we have to do is dump the "fake" parts of the debt - like the amount "owed" to the Federal Reserve" and the "Social Security Trust Fund".

That would drop it by about 1/3.


/Too obvious?
 
2013-10-14 12:53:40 PM  

LavenderWolf: Mouser: Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: Section 4 of the 14th amendment makes it legal.

Great. It's still impossible.

And the government indefinitely continuing to spend more money than it takes in as revenue and borrowing to make up the difference is possible?

Obama and the Democrats' fiscal plan will, eventually, destroy the nation's creditworthiness and bring about the catastrophe they're crying about.  This is not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty.

We can either take our lumps now, while the country can still (granted, barely) afford them, or we can continue on our path and surely be destroyed as a nation.  Your choice.

The debt isn't nearly as unmanageable as you make it. Stop buying fancy military hardware for like 5 years and the debt is gone. Or pick your poison, really.

It is NOT so much debt that the GOP should shut down the farking country and threaten to default. Not even close. It would take 100x this much debt for that to be reasonable.


This, we have been much deeper in debt than this (relatively) on more that one occasion.
 
2013-10-14 12:55:45 PM  

jst3p: LavenderWolf: Mouser: Dusk-You-n-Me: Joe Blowme: Section 4 of the 14th amendment makes it legal.

Great. It's still impossible.

And the government indefinitely continuing to spend more money than it takes in as revenue and borrowing to make up the difference is possible?

Obama and the Democrats' fiscal plan will, eventually, destroy the nation's creditworthiness and bring about the catastrophe they're crying about.  This is not an opinion, it is mathematical certainty.

We can either take our lumps now, while the country can still (granted, barely) afford them, or we can continue on our path and surely be destroyed as a nation.  Your choice.

The debt isn't nearly as unmanageable as you make it. Stop buying fancy military hardware for like 5 years and the debt is gone. Or pick your poison, really.

It is NOT so much debt that the GOP should shut down the farking country and threaten to default. Not even close. It would take 100x this much debt for that to be reasonable.

This, we have been much deeper in debt than this (relatively) on more that one occasion.


Not to mention, before this stupid GOP shutdown, the budget/debt/deficit situation was improving.
 
2013-10-14 12:56:01 PM  

jst3p: See the charts and graphs I posted in this thread and see how that this trend is reversing not getting worse.


While you are correct that the trend is in the 'better' direction, we still have the debt issue square in front of us.  The CBO has been expecting a partial lessening of the deficits as we climb out of this last recession, however, SS and Medicare costs are expected to still be major issues going into the future.

www.taxnetwealth.com
 
2013-10-14 12:56:51 PM  

you have pee hands: The_Original_Roxtar: A.) because the federal government does not own all of the GDP
B.) because some federal spending contributes to GDP
listing with federal spending per capita and as a percentage of federal tax revenue gives a more complete picture.

Listing federal spending as a percentage of federal tax revenue is going to give you a very spiky picture because tax revenue and expenditure don't and shouldn't move together.  The government spends more on the social net during bad times and less in good times while tax revenues obviously do the opposite.  For them to track together you'd have to practice increased spending during economic high times and austerity during recessions which is going to cause a big boom-bust cycle.


The GoP pushed for the former (Medicare Part D and two unfunded wars while cutting taxes) and now want the latter (while we are still in recovery, not in recession). It is really bizarre that they think either are a good idea. Either they are ignorant of the effects of these policies, or they really do want to crash the economy.
 
2013-10-14 12:57:19 PM  

patrick767: Elroydb: I haven't read everything in this thread but has no one stated the obvious that as long as more money flows into the Treasury than exceeds the principle and interest payments on the debt there is 0% chance of defaulting?

Also has anyone questioned the logic of "Be able to borrow more money so you can pay us with borrowed money?"

Also for tl;dr:

at this point in time the only we default on our debt without raising the debt ceiling is if we choose not to pay our debts. We have the money in our hands. We just have to reach our hands out and give the money to them

The Treasury department writes millions of checks per day. It's automated. They've already said that they have absolutely no way to prioritize what debts to pay and what debts not to pay. They literally can't just write checks for treasury bond interest and/or pick other debts to pay or not pay.

Besides that, do you really want to be in a situation where SS checks aren't sent out, government contracts aren't paid, and many millions of people don't get the wages owed to them because they're working on contracts for the federal govt or working as part of the supply chain for people and companies doing govt contracts? It would be catastrophic.


If they have too many bills to prioritize, maybe start by paying the ones required by the US Constitution instead of the crap it's evolved into.
 
2013-10-14 12:57:36 PM  

LavenderWolf: Stop buying fancy military hardware for like 5 years and the debt is gone.


No it is not. Debt is about 16 Trillion.  We spend about 600 Billion per year on all of the millitary.

Even if we cut out all DoD spending (and assuming no negative revenue feedback), you will not even eliminate the deficit, let alone the debt.
 
2013-10-14 12:58:44 PM  

LavenderWolf: Director_Mr: If you are blaming one side any more than the other you aren't paying attention.

You are stupid. "Both sides are the same!" is stupid.

The shutdown, the threat of default, these are 100% the fault of the Republican party.



Absolutely not.
The GOP is just the Punch in this theatre.
The 1% is shaking down the US Economy(or maybe somebody else's), enjoy the show.
 
2013-10-14 12:59:18 PM  
Are we really to the point where things could start to crumble? If they do, I am ever so glad to be living in "fly-over-country". It will get bad here, no doubt, but nowhere near as bad as it will in the cities.

You see, while a lot of noise is made about where money goes, not a sound is made about why it goes where it goes. Sure, the city-dwellers pay a larger amount to live in "cultural centers", but their towers are poetically constructed of glass. If the structure of society crumbles, the very first thing that will happen is that food will stop making it to the largest cities, simply because of the economics of transportation and logistics. Then, they will be staring at all that "priceless" artwork, wishing they could eat it. You will see the mother of all diasporas then. The big question: will the powers-that-be attempt to do what Stalin did to the Ukraine, and would that even work? If the cities empty, where will they go? I think the residents of "fly-over-country" are far better armed then the Ukrainians were.
 
2013-10-14 01:00:04 PM  

HeadLever: jst3p: See the charts and graphs I posted in this thread and see how that this trend is reversing not getting worse.

While you are correct that the trend is in the 'better' direction, we still have the debt issue square in front of us.  The CBO has been expecting a partial lessening of the deficits as we climb out of this last recession, however, SS and Medicare costs are expected to still be major issues going into the future.

[www.taxnetwealth.com image 800x427]


By that graph we have until sometime between 2015 and 2025 to figure it out. I agree it is an issue, but congress needs fund the goddamn government and lift the debt ceiling and then get to work on it. The GoP has already stated that they want to be measured by how many laws DON'T get passed, how is that a functional approach to fixing these problems?
 
2013-10-14 01:00:34 PM  

HeadLever: LavenderWolf: Stop buying fancy military hardware for like 5 years and the debt is gone.

No it is not. Debt is about 16 Trillion.  We spend about 600 Billion per year on all of the millitary.

Even if we cut out all DoD spending (and assuming no negative revenue feedback), you will not even eliminate the deficit, let alone the debt.


Okay, a few more years.

There are measures you can take that make a lot more sense than "Shut down the government! Who needs the vital services it provides?"

As someone else said, the debt situation has been worse before. The numbers are higher than ever, but the relative debt level isn't unprecedented.
 
2013-10-14 01:02:15 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Are we really to the point where things could start to crumble? If they do, I am ever so glad to be living in "fly-over-country". It will get bad here, no doubt, but nowhere near as bad as it will in the cities.

You see, while a lot of noise is made about where money goes, not a sound is made about why it goes where it goes. Sure, the city-dwellers pay a larger amount to live in "cultural centers", but their towers are poetically constructed of glass. If the structure of society crumbles, the very first thing that will happen is that food will stop making it to the largest cities, simply because of the economics of transportation and logistics. Then, they will be staring at all that "priceless" artwork, wishing they could eat it. You will see the mother of all diasporas then. The big question: will the powers-that-be attempt to do what Stalin did to the Ukraine, and would that even work? If the cities empty, where will they go? I think the residents of "fly-over-country" are far better armed then the Ukrainians were.


You're a little funny in the head if you think the US is going to have entire cities empty because of a lack of food.

You understand that government debt isn't tied to the wealth of the citizenry right? Because there are billions and billions of dollars that say you're full of shiat.
 
2013-10-14 01:05:12 PM  

Misconduc: Sorry after being a democrat since Clinton - I side with the GOP over Obamacare. Honestly I could give a crap about how bad Obama has been as president,  but Obamacare really is something to fight against - forcing working people to pay for medical they cannot afford or need.


Americans crack me up.
 
2013-10-14 01:09:17 PM  

runescorpio: Misconduc: Sorry after being a democrat since Clinton - I side with the GOP over Obamacare. Honestly I could give a crap about how bad Obama has been as president,  but Obamacare really is something to fight against - forcing working people to pay for medical they cannot afford or need.

Americans crack me up.


Yeah, kinda sad that so many of us think that people getting health insurance is bad because.... mostly because talking heads tell them so on TV.
 
2013-10-14 01:10:22 PM  

pxlboy: itsaidwhat: Dimensio: RickN99: SpectroBoy: The Dem's position is "Pass a clean bill to prevent the impending disaster"
The GOP position is "No funding until we get our other demands met too."

Dems: Pass a clean bill and fund the entire government.
Obama:  We won't negotiate with the GOP about government funding until the GOP funds the entire government.
GOP:  We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

GOP: We've passed bills to fund some parts of the government that we don't have an issue with.  Let's negotiate about the other parts.
Dems:  Nope. Meet 100% of our funding demands or nothing gets funded.
Obama:  Gonna veto them if they get to me.  Fund the entire government; then we'll negotiate about the funding.
GOP:  We don't want to fund the entire government; THAT'S the issue.

Currently proposed government funding levels are a direct result of Speaker John Boehner receiving "98%" of what he wanted. Current funding levels, therefore, are at Republican-desired levels.

The original Republican-passed spending bill did not change government funding levels; it served only to eliminate an existing law that they did not like, despite that law having been signed into law three years ago, surviving a Constitutional challenge and effectively surviving voter referendum when the President who championed it defeated a challenger who promised to repeal it.

Your argument is a lie and you are a liar for making it.

"You (Libtard Santa Claus and your free money give-away-world policies) sit on a throne of lies!"

You do your arguments a disservice using such idiotic pejoratives like "libtard". This is why no one takes your side seriously.


Libtard. It's fictional. Feel free to suggest a label that you think describes people that think they know best how to direct the lives and resources of others. Some say that's the GOP or Christians or Muslims or Democrats or Tea Bag Party. I am totally open to use another term if you have one that I agree will work. However I suspect that you self identify with some part of Libtard but not my use. Again, I'm okay with that. Make a suggestion.
 
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