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(Bluebird Banter)   Stay classy, Red Sox fan who steals a home run baseball from a woman and tosses it back on the field   (bluebirdbanter.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, Red Sox, baseball, home runs, Alex Avila, Jeff Passan, toss, Animated GIF, League Championship Series  
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2030 clicks; posted to Sports » on 14 Oct 2013 at 9:33 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-14 11:14:41 PM  

Publikwerks: machoprogrammer: Publikwerks: machoprogrammer: He never looked like he juiced? Wtf are you smoking? He put on quite a bit of weight; steroids help you put on weight; whether its lean muscle or muscle with fat, it does both.

And yes, he was on the same list as arod and manny (the 2003 positive for steroid test result list). He was juicing. No doubt about it. The whole "they never said what he tested positive for" or "it was a vitamin!" is a bunch of bullshiat. Steroid tests do not work that way and anyone who says they do doesn't know wtf they are talking about.

As for this year? Yes, his numbers are suspicious and as the biogenesis thing taught us, passing drug tests means nothing

LIsten, we can both sit here and argue like we know what the hell we are talking about. But both of us don't know shiat. Catch him cheating and I'll give you credit. Otherwise, you're just yapping to someone who really doesn't give a shiat what you think.

You think I'm gonna say "Your right, Ortiz should really give back that GS."?
LOLOLOL

Yeah i don't know this year, but it is possible. He juiced in the past, why stop now?

Or do you really believe that he failed a steroid test by not taking a steroid?

Well, since the list was never released, and it was only "leaked" to one site(where it spread all over the internet), I would hardly call that a definitive source.


According to Ortiz himself, he was on that list: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/ 0 7/report_ortiz_ra.html

WinoRhino: JohnnyRebel88: Here are 4 good products that you might want to look into if you would like to look like you have been lifting all your life.  I guess they would fall into a "diet steroid" category that you have mentioned.  I have no idea what you guys were arguing about, however they do exist.

The point I was trying to make was that someone can't use things like body weight, power numbers, etc as a reliable indicator that a player is using steroids.


So since you can't use power numbers, you think Luis Gonzalez was clean in '01? Or Brady Anderson in '96? Bonds was clean, too, then, huh?

And weight gain is not a suspicion of steroids? Seriously? The human body can only gain about 2 lb of muscle a month without steroids if everything is done correctly. If a player comes in, having "gained 10 lb of muscle" in the off season, there is no way they can do that without roids (or they are bullshiatting). If you have just started lifting, then yes, you gain fast at first, but all MLBers have been lifting weights for years (at least, I would assume). Since weight gain isn't a suspicion and all... In fact, according to http://scoobysworkshop.com/expectations/ , quick weight gain is the #1 sign to detecting steroid use. And yes, there are "cutting" steroids.  Winny, dbol, anavar are all steroids used to gain muscle mass while losing body fat and DNP, while not a steroid, is an illegal PED for weight loss (with really nasty side effects). There's many, many steroids. Some undetectable and each acts differently.
 
2013-10-14 11:59:16 PM  

machoprogrammer: So since you can't use power numbers, you think Luis Gonzalez was clean in '01? Or Brady Anderson in '96? Bonds was clean, too, then, huh?


I'm sort-of at a loss on how to explain this to you without coming off like a jerk. Power numbers alone are not an indicator of steroid use. If they were, then any player who had a progressive increase in their power numbers, according to you, would be a steroid user. We went over this in the last thread that I referenced. I'll put it here:

HRs by David Ortiz, ages 24-30: 10, 18, 20, 31, 41, 47, 54.
HRs by Gil Hodges, ages 24-30: 11, 23, 32, 40, 31, 32, 42.
HRs by Hack Wilson, ages 24-30: 10, 6, 21, 30, 31, 39, 56.


There you go. He progressed as a hitter. But you, apparently, can tell that Ortiz was juicing even though he has very similar numbers to other historic power hitters. Once again, as I said in the other thread which you obviously didn't go back to read:

You try to make it sound like Ortiz made the jump to 54 HR in a single year, but it was really over the span of 7 years with modest improvements, year over year, from age 24 to age 30 (which is the prime age for most hitters.) 10, 18, 20, (Traded) 31, 41, 47, 54.  Then you say he sucked the last few years? He'shiat over .300 the last three years including this one. There was a two year span in which his AVG dropped and so did his HR production, even though he was still hitting around 25 of them. He also had some very high SO totals in that time. So if anything, you can see a bell curve with a couple outlier points as he aged into his prime and then started to come out of it. Seems pretty legit to me.  I'm not denying the 2003 test results, or even suggesting he wasn't taking something. But I am saying that pointing to his stats as a way of trying to prove that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Add body-type to that last sentence and we're up-to-date with your Ortiz hate.  Speaking of body type...

machoprogrammer: And weight gain is not a suspicion of steroids? Seriously?


Again, all I said was weight gain alone is not enough to indicate a steroid user. You say weight gain is the tell-tale sign, but with Ortiz he lost weight. So your response is that there are steroids to make you lose fat and build lean muscle. So THAT'S gotta be the case here, right? But what you're essentially saying is this (also from that last thread):

Guy got injured? Steroids.
Guy doesn't get injured? Steroids.
Guy hit a bunch of HRs in one season but never again? Steroids.
Guy hit a bunch of HRs for several seasons? Steroids.
Guy didn't hit a bunch of HR but did other stuff pretty well? Steroids.
Guy wasn't particularity good at all? Steroids.


And now, courtesy of your posts in this thread we get to add:

Guy lost weight and power numbers went up? Steroids.
Guy gained weight and power numbers went up? Steroids.


Selig should hire you. You have an amazing ability to pick the steroid users out of the crowd just by looking at them! You're like the guy in the Gladwell's "Blink" who could detect a tennis player's double-fault before it happened.
 
2013-10-15 08:03:28 AM  

WinoRhino: machoprogrammer: So since you can't use power numbers, you think Luis Gonzalez was clean in '01? Or Brady Anderson in '96? Bonds was clean, too, then, huh?

I'm sort-of at a loss on how to explain this to you without coming off like a jerk. Power numbers alone are not an indicator of steroid use. If they were, then any player who had a progressive increase in their power numbers, according to you, would be a steroid user. We went over this in the last thread that I referenced. I'll put it here:

HRs by David Ortiz, ages 24-30: 10, 18, 20, 31, 41, 47, 54.
HRs by Gil Hodges, ages 24-30: 11, 23, 32, 40, 31, 32, 42.
HRs by Hack Wilson, ages 24-30: 10, 6, 21, 30, 31, 39, 56.

There you go. He progressed as a hitter. But you, apparently, can tell that Ortiz was juicing even though he has very similar numbers to other historic power hitters. Once again, as I said in the other thread which you obviously didn't go back to read:

You try to make it sound like Ortiz made the jump to 54 HR in a single year, but it was really over the span of 7 years with modest improvements, year over year, from age 24 to age 30 (which is the prime age for most hitters.) 10, 18, 20, (Traded) 31, 41, 47, 54.  Then you say he sucked the last few years? He'shiat over .300 the last three years including this one. There was a two year span in which his AVG dropped and so did his HR production, even though he was still hitting around 25 of them. He also had some very high SO totals in that time. So if anything, you can see a bell curve with a couple outlier points as he aged into his prime and then started to come out of it. Seems pretty legit to me.  I'm not denying the 2003 test results, or even suggesting he wasn't taking something. But I am saying that pointing to his stats as a way of trying to prove that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Add body-type to that last sentence and we're up-to-date with your Ortiz hate.  Speaking of body type...

machoprogrammer: And weight gain is not a suspicion o ...


You're right, there is no way Ortiz juiced! I mean, it isn't like he failed a drug test back in 2003 or anything...

And yes, weight gain alone can be an indicator of steroid use. Why do you think bodybuilders do steroids?
 
2013-10-15 01:30:37 PM  

machoprogrammer: You're right, there is no way Ortiz juiced! I mean, it isn't like he failed a drug test back in 2003 or anything...


And because you absolutely FAIL at reading, let alone comprehension, I'll quote myself from above, which was me quoting myself from the other thread, responding to you previously:

WinoRhino: I'm not denying the 2003 test results, or even suggesting he wasn't taking something. But I am saying that pointing to his stats as a way of trying to prove that isn't going to get you anywhere.


machoprogrammer: And yes, weight gain alone can be an indicator of steroid use. Why do you think bodybuilders do steroids?


You're so dense. I'm beside myself. Let me help you: not every person in the world who gains weight is doing steroids. PLEASE read that several times until it sinks in. Therefore, weight gain alone is not a sufficient indicator that some one is doing steroids. Here's an impersonation of you at a zoo:

YOU: "Look at that beautiful horse!"
ZOO GUY:  "Sir, that's a Zebra."
YOU: "No it isn't. It's a horse. It has four legs, a mane, and hooves. It's a horse."
ZOO GUY:  "It's also got black and white stripes and belongs to a different species completely."
YOU:  "Nope. Wrong. A mane, four hooves and a tail is enough for me to know it's a horse."
 
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