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(Huffington Post)   There is legal standing for President Obama to have the House leadership arrested on extortion charges   (huffingtonpost.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, President Obama, GOP, public housed, citizen of the United States  
•       •       •

7602 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Oct 2013 at 9:49 PM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



369 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-13 07:33:56 PM  
It's clear they aren't going to come around on their own, I think it's time to get a little bit nasty with them.
 
2013-10-13 07:38:48 PM  
Andrew Jackson would have beaten them with his cane.
 
2013-10-13 07:40:13 PM  
What are you *waiting* for?!
 
2013-10-13 07:42:34 PM  

ManateeGag: Andrew Jackson would have beaten them with his cane.


Aaron Burr would have challenged them to a duel.
 
2013-10-13 07:44:17 PM  
Do go on.
 
2013-10-13 07:49:20 PM  
Go for it.  See how it turns out.
 
NFA
2013-10-13 07:55:58 PM  

dstanley: What are you *waiting* for?!


When the government is forced into default, Obama can declare a state of emergency and have them all arrested and tried for treason.
 
2013-10-13 08:00:09 PM  
They call it "pulling Scott Walker".
 
2013-10-13 08:01:28 PM  
Holy crap that would be hilarious.
 
2013-10-13 08:07:46 PM  
No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.
 
2013-10-13 08:16:07 PM  

Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.


From a legal perspective, since you would know more about it than most of us, what's wrong with his argument?

If that plan wouldn't work, are there legal standings you can think of that would?
 
2013-10-13 08:20:09 PM  

Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.


This. We can judge his intelligence by his quoting of the Constitution.

Here's the Constitution's language on the subject -- Article II, Section 6: "...They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place. "

First off, Article II deals with the executive branch of the government and there are only four sections. What he quotes is Article I, Section 6.

Now, as for his accusation that the GOP is engaging in the federal crime of seditious conspiracy, lets look at the law itself:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to

overthrow
       No
put down No
or to destroy by force the Government of the United States       No
or to levy war against them No
or to oppose by force the authority thereof No
or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,         No
or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof No

No force is being used. If he wants to use this definition of sedition, people protesting either side is sedition, Obama saying he won't enforce DOMA is sedition, and every time a deal is made in Congress it's sedition.

GOP controls the House. They may be being morons right now but that's their right. Deal with it and vote them out but stop being a big of a crackpot as they are.
 
2013-10-13 08:26:07 PM  
As much as I'd love to see this happen I would worry about reinforcing the Tea Bagger's persecution complex.
 
2013-10-13 08:28:43 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.

From a legal perspective, since you would know more about it than most of us, what's wrong with his argument?

If that plan wouldn't work, are there legal standings you can think of that would?


His interpretation of the Hobbs Act is laughable. One must first have property that is taken away for extortion to apply. There is no generally applicable property interest in the passing of any federal law
 
2013-10-13 08:29:44 PM  

ArkAngel: Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.

This. We can judge his intelligence by his quoting of the Constitution.

Here's the Constitution's language on the subject -- Article II, Section 6: "...They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place. "

First off, Article II deals with the executive branch of the government and there are only four sections. What he quotes is Article I, Section 6.

Now, as for his accusation that the GOP is engaging in the federal crime of seditious conspiracy, lets look at the law itself:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to

overthrow       No
put down No
or to destroy by force the Government of the United States       No
or to levy war against them No
or to oppose by force the authority thereof No
or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,         No
or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof No

No force is being used. If he wants to use this definition of sedition, people protesting either side is sedition, Obama saying he won't enforce DOMA is sedition, and every time a deal is made in Congress it's sedition.

GOP controls the House. They may be being morons right now but that's their right. Deal with it and vote them out but stop being a big of a crackpot as they are.


The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States

Not only did they try to use extortion to delay and prevent the ACA, which is a law of the United States, their continued actions would result in a violation of the 14th Amendment which mentions that the payment of US debt shall not be questioned.

It may be a stretch, but it looks like there's something there.  Would it pass muster on appeal or in the Supreme Court?  Maybe not.  Does it need to?  Not necessarily.  Lead Cantor and Boehner out in cuffs, have the moderate Republicans caucus with the Democrats to appoint a new speaker, bring the issues to vote, pass them, and then drop the charges.
 
2013-10-13 08:32:39 PM  

ArkAngel: TuteTibiImperes: Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.

From a legal perspective, since you would know more about it than most of us, what's wrong with his argument?

If that plan wouldn't work, are there legal standings you can think of that would?

His interpretation of the Hobbs Act is laughable. One must first have property that is taken away for extortion to apply. There is no generally applicable property interest in the passing of any federal law


Standing-related precedent for governmental affairs is covered under Frothingham v. Mellon and  DaimlerChrysler Corp. v. Cuno
 
2013-10-13 08:33:26 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.

From a legal perspective, since you would know more about it than most of us, what's wrong with his argument?

If that plan wouldn't work, are there legal standings you can think of that would?


Because Congressional action is not literal extortion and it's absurd to imply that. This blogger thinks that taking Congressional action that harms the country could be criminal, which is such an absurd idea that it just represents a complete lack of understanding of the subject.
 
2013-10-13 08:34:02 PM  
Even if this were true, it would never happen. Such a heavy handed tactic would lose him the support he's gained.
 
2013-10-13 08:35:56 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ArkAngel: Rincewind53: No there isn't.

That blogger is full of sh*t and has no clue what he's talking about.

This. We can judge his intelligence by his quoting of the Constitution.

Here's the Constitution's language on the subject -- Article II, Section 6: "...They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place. "

First off, Article II deals with the executive branch of the government and there are only four sections. What he quotes is Article I, Section 6.

Now, as for his accusation that the GOP is engaging in the federal crime of seditious conspiracy, lets look at the law itself:

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to

overthrow       No
put down No
or to destroy by force the Government of the United States       No
or to levy war against them No
or to oppose by force the authority thereof No
or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,         No
or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof No

No force is being used. If he wants to use this definition of sedition, people protesting either side is sedition, Obama saying he won't enforce DOMA is sedition, and every time a deal is made in Congress it's sedition.

GOP controls the House. They may be being morons right now but that's their right. Deal with it and vote them out but stop being a big of a crackpot as they are.

The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to pr ...


It is so obviously not a crime that the Congressmen with guns would practically be in their legal rights to shoot dead any police officer that tried.
 
2013-10-13 08:38:34 PM  
Also, ArkAngel is doing a good job of actually going through the legal rationale in a more complete way.
 
2013-10-13 08:38:38 PM  
TuteTibiImperes:

The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States


If we are going to allow this interpretation, every deal ever made in Congress, including the deals made to get the ACA passed, are extortion. 

Not only did they try to use extortion to delay and prevent the ACA, which is a law of the United States, their continued actions would result in a violation of the 14th Amendment which mentions that the payment of US debt shall not be questioned.

If that's the case, Obama is also guilty because he conspired to delay the ACA when he delayed enforcement of the employer mandate. He also would be violating it with his deal to not deport certain types of illegal immigrants.

It may be a stretch, but it looks like there's something there.  Would it pass muster on appeal or in the Supreme Court?  Maybe not.  Does it need to?  Not necessarily.  Lead Cantor and Boehner out in cuffs, have the moderate Republicans caucus with the Democrats to appoint a new speaker, bring the issues to vote, pass them, and then drop the charges.

No it wouldn't. Obama may look good to a few people on the far fringes of either side, but he would be making a very poor choice and would be easily accused of extortion himself in trying to get his way with the debt ceiling and ACA.
 
2013-10-13 08:40:43 PM  

Rincewind53: Also, ArkAngel is doing a good job of actually going through the legal rationale in a more complete way.


I have great distaste for people manipulating laws for selective prosecution. Some of the worst lately have been people who videotape police being subjected to arrest on wiretapping charges and computer crime statutes that make violating a website's rules a federal felony.
 
2013-10-13 08:43:05 PM  

ArkAngel: TuteTibiImperes:

The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States

If we are going to allow this interpretation, every deal ever made in Congress, including the deals made to get the ACA passed, are extortion. 

Not only did they try to use extortion to delay and prevent the ACA, which is a law of the United States, their continued actions would result in a violation of the 14th Amendment which mentions that the payment of US debt shall not be questioned.

If that's the case, Obama is also guilty because he conspired to delay the ACA when he delayed enforcement of the employer mandate. He also would be violating it with his deal to not deport certain types of illegal immigrants.


Ah, I didn't think of it that way.  You bring up some good points.

It's just frustrating that we have no system in place to deal with blatant legislative malfeasance like we're seeing out of the House right now.  All indications show that there are enough votes to pass a clean CR and debt ceiling increase right now, but due to the procedural rules that initiated only Cantor and Boehner can bring anything up for a vote, and they're both refusing.  It's ridiculous.
 
2013-10-13 08:44:44 PM  
yourenothelping.jpg
 
2013-10-13 08:49:21 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ArkAngel: TuteTibiImperes:

The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States

If we are going to allow this interpretation, every deal ever made in Congress, including the deals made to get the ACA passed, are extortion.
Not only did they try to use extortion to delay and prevent the ACA, which is a law of the United States, their continued actions would result in a violation of the 14th Amendment which mentions that the payment of US debt shall not be questioned.

If that's the case, Obama is also guilty because he conspired to delay the ACA when he delayed enforcement of the employer mandate. He also would be violating it with his deal to not deport certain types of illegal immigrants.

Ah, I didn't think of it that way.  You bring up some good points.

It's just frustrating that we have no system in place to deal with blatant legislative malfeasance like we're seeing out of the House right now.  All indications show that there are enough votes to pass a clean CR and debt ceiling increase right now, but due to the procedural rules that initiated only Cantor and Boehner can bring anything up for a vote, and they're both refusing.  It's ridiculous.


It is frustrating, but we really don't have any system for it. It's a problem built deep into our Constitution.

ArkAngel: Rincewind53: Also, ArkAngel is doing a good job of actually going through the legal rationale in a more complete way.

I have great distaste for people manipulating laws for selective prosecution. Some of the worst lately have been people who videotape police being subjected to arrest on wiretapping charges and computer crime statutes that make violating a website's rules a federal felony.


Yeah, I agree 100%.
 
2013-10-13 08:51:20 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ArkAngel: TuteTibiImperes:

The way I read it, while he hinges his argument on extortion being a use of force, and their current actions meeting the legal definition of extortion in the Hobbes Act.

Given that, it would seem that they are violating this clause:

or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States

If we are going to allow this interpretation, every deal ever made in Congress, including the deals made to get the ACA passed, are extortion. 

Not only did they try to use extortion to delay and prevent the ACA, which is a law of the United States, their continued actions would result in a violation of the 14th Amendment which mentions that the payment of US debt shall not be questioned.

If that's the case, Obama is also guilty because he conspired to delay the ACA when he delayed enforcement of the employer mandate. He also would be violating it with his deal to not deport certain types of illegal immigrants.

Ah, I didn't think of it that way.  You bring up some good points.

It's just frustrating that we have no system in place to deal with blatant legislative malfeasance like we're seeing out of the House right now.  All indications show that there are enough votes to pass a clean CR and debt ceiling increase right now, but due to the procedural rules that initiated only Cantor and Boehner can bring anything up for a vote, and they're both refusing.  It's ridiculous.


We have ways. One way, which would almost never happen because of the hatred between the two parties, would be for a member of Congress to be expelled. Two thirds of either house would have to agree (good luck with that) and the person would be removed. Very rare, though. Only three have happened that weren't related to the Civil War.

The other way would be to vote them out. And it's what we have to do for many of them on both sides. I wouldn't be opposed to a complete reset of the entirety of Congress.
 
2013-10-13 08:52:02 PM  

ArkAngel: No it wouldn't. Obama may look good to a few people on the far fringes of either side, but he would be making a very poor choice and would be easily accused of extortion himself in trying to get his way with the debt ceiling and ACA.


It is my understanding that we have no options. We just have to hope and pray that they somehow manage to pass something they both hate that doesn't do anything to help America but maintain the status quo for just a little longer until they reach the same impasse and we have to do this again and again until the 2014 elections.

I don't see a way out with any kind of parliamentary maneuvers. Even the discharge petition seems like a real long-shot.
 
2013-10-13 08:53:46 PM  
FTFA:

While Hobbs deals mainly with injury to individuals, it seems to me to be a small step to observe that every citizen of the United States is an individual, and the United States is being harmed .

Aaaaand we're done with this stupid idea.
 
2013-10-13 08:59:18 PM  
ArkAngel:

The other way would be to vote them out. And it's what we have to do for many of them on both sides. I wouldn't be opposed to a complete reset of the entirety of Congress.

Yes, it does come down to being able to vote out bad actors, but unfortunately there are a ton of irresponsible voters out there who don't know what the candidate they're voting for stands for, don't understand how government works, and don't understand what the real long term consequences of the policies they espouse would be.  How else would the tea party have become powerful enough to have any sway in the government?

We need better political education in this country.
 
2013-10-13 09:52:47 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ArkAngel:

The other way would be to vote them out. And it's what we have to do for many of them on both sides. I wouldn't be opposed to a complete reset of the entirety of Congress.

Yes, it does come down to being able to vote out bad actors, but unfortunately there are a ton of irresponsible voters out there who don't know what the candidate they're voting for stands for, don't understand how government works, and don't understand what the real long term consequences of the policies they espouse would be.  How else would the tea party have become powerful enough to have any sway in the government?

We need better political education in this country.


I can't agree with you about better political education being the solution. The vast majority of Americans are too busy trying to score jobs after high school, college, trade schools, have families, live their lives. Americans have to spend the time learning about politics and history, time they often don't use because they don't have a reason to focus on it in their view.

This has always been a problem with us Americans. To use one of my favorite quotes by Bill Vaughan (1915-1977):  "A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election." Alas, we've been this way for a long time.
 
2013-10-13 09:59:38 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: yourenothelping.jpg


Yeah, since my dad thinks that Obama caused this whole mess, he's honestly expecting that declaring martial law in the intent. This HuffPost piece just fits his paranoid delusions, and those of all his friends.
 
2013-10-13 10:00:07 PM  
Pretty much the same as the wingnuts claiming they're going to impeach Obama
 
2013-10-13 10:00:11 PM  
ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease. We would  be a Derpcon 1.
 
2013-10-13 10:00:11 PM  

ArkAngel: There is no generally applicable property interest in the passing of any federal law


i.imgur.com

HA HA!! Tea Party Patriots Win AGAIN!
 
2013-10-13 10:00:43 PM  

Rincewind53: It is so obviously not a crime that the Congressmen with guns would practically be in their legal rights to shoot dead any police officer that tried.


The white Congressmen, at least.
 
2013-10-13 10:00:55 PM  

Sensei Can You See: FTFA:

While Hobbs deals mainly with injury to individuals, it seems to me to be a small step to observe that every citizen of the United States is an individual, and the United States is being harmed .

Aaaaand we're done with this stupid idea.


Nonsense, sir. The sovereign citizen movement is a totally valid belief system. Every man is his own monarch.

Except for me. I'm dangerously schizophrenic and I have a parliamentary system.
 
2013-10-13 10:01:55 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: have the moderate Republicans


Here's the thing that'll blow your mind.

Cantor and Boehner are moderate Republicans.
 
2013-10-13 10:02:15 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: ArkAngel:

The other way would be to vote them out. And it's what we have to do for many of them on both sides. I wouldn't be opposed to a complete reset of the entirety of Congress.

Yes, it does come down to being able to vote out bad actors, but unfortunately there are a ton of irresponsible voters out there who don't know what the candidate they're voting for stands for, don't understand how government works, and don't understand what the real long term consequences of the policies they espouse would be.  How else would the tea party have become powerful enough to have any sway in the government?

We need better political education in this country.


There are lots of people who think FOX News is political education.
And the education you're talking about would be blasted as LIBTARD BRAINWARSHING
 
2013-10-13 10:04:51 PM  

AirForceVet: This has always been a problem with us Americans. To use one of my favorite quotes by Bill Vaughan (1915-1977): "A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election." Alas, we've been this way for a long time.


The amount of times I have to explain what is going on to people astounds me. I'm no great scholar, I just really love being infromed. I've had to explain to almost everyone that I work with what is going on. They were all cheering on Friday that a deal was done and got mad at me for saying not to be so fast to celebrate.

I have a few friends that I can have over and hang out with to discuss current events. Those are always a good time where the bourbon flows freely. The consensus that we've come to is that we're pretty much f*cked until the Tea Party gets the dick slapped out of their mouth. The Koch Brothers and Heritage coming out against Cruz and the House GOP last week was a decent first step, but we have a long way to go.

If they do breach the debt ceiling, even on the technically defined day, they won't see corporate money for quite some time.
 
2013-10-13 10:05:55 PM  

FC Exile: Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.


Please tell us more about your plans to head to the Capitol, armed and with hostile intent.
 
2013-10-13 10:06:03 PM  
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-10-13 10:06:34 PM  

FC Exile: Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.


You have one stashed in the District?  Do tell.
 
2013-10-13 10:09:16 PM  
Yeah, no.

Fun to think on for a sec or two  but quickly and easily dismissed as an option..

It's third world banana republic tactics at best.

As noted above, feeding into the GOPers already massive persecution complexes does not help the situation one whit.

FC Exile: Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.


See? FCE is already sporting a chubby at the notion.
 
2013-10-13 10:10:16 PM  

FC Exile: Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.


Man, even kids get shot for no obvious reason.... But you have reason, and WILL get shot.
 
2013-10-13 10:11:43 PM  
Green? Oh dear lord.
 
2013-10-13 10:14:10 PM  
Sedition and or treason is almost impossible to prove. 

Oh, and why the hell did I click on a huffpo post?
 
2013-10-13 10:14:18 PM  

Cagey B: FC Exile: Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.

Please tell us more about your plans to head to the Capitol, armed and with hostile intent.

Try that, and I'm showing up with a gun.


http://www.secretservice.gov/faq.shtml#faq4

Contact your nearest US Secret Service Field office which is listed in the "Emergency Numbers" section in the front of most phone books.
The Secret Service is interested in legitimate information relating to threats, plans or attempts by individuals, groups or organizations to harm Secret Service protectees. However, the agency does not desire or solicit information pertaining to individuals or groups expressing legitimate criticism of, or political opposition to, the policies and decisions of the government or government officials.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threatening_the_President_of_the_United _S tates
 
2013-10-13 10:15:07 PM  

FC Exile: Get your out of control spending in check and start recognizing individual freedoms.


YEAHHHHH! THAT MEANS SOMETHING! THAT IS SUBSTANTIAL POLITICAL DISCOURSE THAT SHOWS AN UNDERSTANDING OF COMPLEX ISSUES! AMERICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
 
2013-10-13 10:15:11 PM  

quatchi: As noted above, feeding into the GOPers already massive persecution complexes does not help the situation one whit.


Doesn't this actually encourage them to OPENLY, BLATANTLY BREAK THE LAW, knowing that anyone who would prosecute them would "look bad"?
 
2013-10-13 10:16:34 PM  

Heliovdrake: Contact your nearest US Secret Service Field office which is listed in the "Emergency Numbers" section in the front of most phone books.


i42.tinypic.com

 
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