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(International Business Times)   Remember that SNL skit about China's president complaining about the US debt? Here's the real world, unfunny, scary version   (ibtimes.co.uk) divider line 38
    More: Scary, SNL, Pax Americana, debt limit, international financial institutions, Xinhua News Agency  
•       •       •

2883 clicks; posted to Business » on 13 Oct 2013 at 4:43 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



38 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-10-13 02:31:04 PM
Why should the world trust their economic health to a small group of people who are willing to default in order to prevent people from getting health care coverage?
 
2013-10-13 02:34:42 PM
So they're worried about the 5 trillion dollars they hold and want a new currency to replace the dollar? Where they gonna go, the Euro?
 
2013-10-13 02:35:44 PM
the destinies of people should not be left in the hands of a hypocritical nation with a dysfunctional government.
Oh yeah? General Tso chicken is overrated.
 
2013-10-13 02:36:02 PM
Pot, meet kettle. And a biased pot, at that.

If this were Switzerland calling for it, it would be one thing. But the one country that has the most to gain from such a thing, as well as the one country that has an even longer record of hypocrisies and abuses, well...

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch. The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.
 
2013-10-13 02:36:25 PM

doyner: Why should the world trust their economic health to a small group of people who are willing to default in order to prevent people from getting health care coverage?


Yep, I think we've pretty much convinced the world that we are not ready for self-government.
 
2013-10-13 02:49:08 PM
Remember that SNL skit about China's president complaining about the US debt?

No.
 
2013-10-13 02:56:29 PM
whistleridge:

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch.

I wish I was as optimistic as you about that.
 
2013-10-13 03:06:50 PM
A couple things worth pointing out. While the current situation in the US is a politically motivated contrived problem that we truly have the economic luxury to experience, China is among the last countries that should be throwing stones. Here are some reasons:

1: We are not systematicly fabricating our economic growth data.
2: We are not currently in a recession, as much of the data out of China appears to indicate.
3: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck.
4: As bad of a job as we do at it, we still have a social safety net. It's interesting that the people's government doesn't provide an equivalent to social security.
5: We don't have to juice our economy through perpetual make-work projects which make up roughly half of their economy.
6: We don't raid the savings of our citizens to pay for those projects and then hide it through shady accounting practices and dubious wealth management projects that even the Icelandic banks would consider dirty.
7: You have been saying the same thing for the past couple years. Yet in that period the US Dollar has further cemented itself as the reserve currency of choice while your currency is used internationally something like 10 times less than the Mexican Peso.
8: You get to be in that position because of transparency an aggressive public accounting practices (none of which you have). Do you know what you get when you have those things? You get public fights about how to spend limited public resources. When you can't just bribe the proper people and falsify your data, you have to actually solve problems when parties have competing agendas.
9: Our debt issues are nothing compared to yours. Since most corporate and provincial debt ends up as a liability to the central government, yours is higher as a percentage of GDP and is growing way faster than ours.

If our country and system suck so much why are all of your countries elites trying to get their assets in American, Canadian, and European banks/real estate? Why are so many if them seeking US and Canadian green cards?
 
2013-10-13 03:35:03 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: Remember that SNL skit about China's president complaining about the US debt?

No.


it was the SNL skit where lisa was the first straight female president of the USA.

Chinese Man: You pay now! Now! [pounds fist on table]
Bart: What happened to you, China? You used to be cool.
Chinese Man: Hey, China is still cool. You pay later. Later! [pounds fist on table]
Bart: Solid. The rest of you go on home, and look in your mailboxes, cause I totally remember sending checks out.
 
2013-10-13 04:56:23 PM
Fark you, autoplay video.
 
2013-10-13 05:12:49 PM

b2theory: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck


www.washingtonpost.com

ideasinspiringinnovation.files.wordpress.com

Unless you're the GOP
 
2013-10-13 05:29:31 PM

whistleridge: Pot, meet kettle. And a biased pot, at that.

If this were Switzerland calling for it, it would be one thing. But the one country that has the most to gain from such a thing, as well as the one country that has an even longer record of hypocrisies and abuses, well...

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch. The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.


So, you don't have a problem with the argument, just with who is making it.

I think there's a term for that. What was it?

Ad hominy? Ad homophone? Something like that.
 
2013-10-13 05:35:01 PM

b2theory: A couple things worth pointing out. While the current situation in the US is a politically motivated contrived problem that we truly have the economic luxury to experience, China is among the last countries that should be throwing stones. Here are some reasons:

1: We are not systematicly fabricating our economic growth data.
2: We are not currently in a recession, as much of the data out of China appears to indicate.
3: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck.
4: As bad of a job as we do at it, we still have a social safety net. It's interesting that the people's government doesn't provide an equivalent to social security.
5: We don't have to juice our economy through perpetual make-work projects which make up roughly half of their economy.
6: We don't raid the savings of our citizens to pay for those projects and then hide it through shady accounting practices and dubious wealth management projects that even the Icelandic banks would consider dirty.
7: You have been saying the same thing for the past couple years. Yet in that period the US Dollar has further cemented itself as the reserve currency of choice while your currency is used internationally something like 10 times less than the Mexican Peso.
8: You get to be in that position because of transparency an aggressive public accounting practices (none of which you have). Do you know what you get when you have those things? You get public fights about how to spend limited public resources. When you can't just bribe the proper people and falsify your data, you have to actually solve problems when parties have competing agendas.
9: Our debt issues are nothing compared to yours. Since most corporate and provincial debt ends up as a liability to the central government, yours is higher as a percentage of GDP and is growing way faster than ours.

If our country and system suck so much why are all of your countries elites trying to get their assets in American, Canadian, and European banks/real estate? Why are so many if them seeking US and Canadian green cards?


Ad homily maybe?

Anyway, pointing out their dysfunction doesn't really absolve our own. Unless you are arguing that, realatively, our dysfunction is ok.

And that would be dumb.
 
2013-10-13 06:16:18 PM

simplicimus: So they're worried about the 5 trillion dollars they hold and want a new currency to replace the dollar? Where they gonna go, the Euro?


GOLD?
PETRO DOLLAR? no wait, the US has tons of OIL
what about the renminbi ??!!!
That would be much more stable!! LOL
 
2013-10-13 06:24:58 PM
Great. Somebody went boo-boo in the hot tub and all they can do is blame the dog.

/not directed to anyone here of course
 
2013-10-13 06:25:53 PM

namatad: simplicimus: So they're worried about the 5 trillion dollars they hold and want a new currency to replace the dollar? Where they gonna go, the Euro?

GOLD?
PETRO DOLLAR? no wait, the US has tons of OIL
what about the renminbi ??!!!
That would be much more stable!! LOL


Bitcoins.
 
2013-10-13 06:50:15 PM
FTA As the first step in creating a de-Americanised world, all nations must try to shape an international system that respects the sovereignty of all nations and ensures the US keeps out of the domestic affairs of others, Xinhua said.

I think they are talking about the South China Sea at a wild guess.
 
2013-10-13 07:04:24 PM

sendtodave: b2theory: A couple things worth pointing out. While the current situation in the US is a politically motivated contrived problem that we truly have the economic luxury to experience, China is among the last countries that should be throwing stones. Here are some reasons:

1: We are not systematicly fabricating our economic growth data.
2: We are not currently in a recession, as much of the data out of China appears to indicate.
3: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck.
4: As bad of a job as we do at it, we still have a social safety net. It's interesting that the people's government doesn't provide an equivalent to social security.
5: We don't have to juice our economy through perpetual make-work projects which make up roughly half of their economy.
6: We don't raid the savings of our citizens to pay for those projects and then hide it through shady accounting practices and dubious wealth management projects that even the Icelandic banks would consider dirty.
7: You have been saying the same thing for the past couple years. Yet in that period the US Dollar has further cemented itself as the reserve currency of choice while your currency is used internationally something like 10 times less than the Mexican Peso.
8: You get to be in that position because of transparency an aggressive public accounting practices (none of which you have). Do you know what you get when you have those things? You get public fights about how to spend limited public resources. When you can't just bribe the proper people and falsify your data, you have to actually solve problems when parties have competing agendas.
9: Our debt issues are nothing compared to yours. Since most corporate and provincial debt ends up as a liability to the central government, yours is higher as a percentage of GDP and is growing way faster than ours.

If our country and system suck so much why are all of your countries elites trying to get their assets in American, Canadian, and European banks/real estate? Why are so many if them seeking US and Canadian green cards?

Ad homily maybe?

Anyway, pointing out their dysfunction doesn't really absolve our own. Unless you are arguing that, realatively, our dysfunction is ok.

And that would be dumb.


In a game of who is going to do more damage to the world economy, China's economy is a significantly bigger threat.

A proper correction to their economy (on the scale of the Asian financial crisis) will drop them from the number two spot to at least number three if not lower.
 
2013-10-13 07:28:46 PM

Tman144: namatad: simplicimus: So they're worried about the 5 trillion dollars they hold and want a new currency to replace the dollar? Where they gonna go, the Euro?

GOLD?
PETRO DOLLAR? no wait, the US has tons of OIL
what about the renminbi ??!!!
That would be much more stable!! LOL

Bitcoins.


I was gonna add bitcoins to the end for lols.
US dollars are fiat currency backed by the full faith of the US government, which the last two weeks has been silly.

The problem with bitcoins is that they are fiat digital fiat currency backed by no one.
shudder
 
2013-10-13 07:30:29 PM

sendtodave: whistleridge: Pot, meet kettle. And a biased pot, at that.

If this were Switzerland calling for it, it would be one thing. But the one country that has the most to gain from such a thing, as well as the one country that has an even longer record of hypocrisies and abuses, well...

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch. The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.

So, you don't have a problem with the argument, just with who is making it.

I think there's a term for that. What was it?

Ad hominy? Ad homophone? Something like that.


Actually, I have a problem with the argument too. But credibility does matter, and China has none. As I indicated.

So your argument is reminding me of something about a fallacy fallacy...

His claim is utter bullshiat.  Our problems are purely electoral. If we shiat out the Tea Baggers and put together a competent government for 5 years, we'll be rolling in dough. It will be the 90s all over again. And in 10 years tops, enough Boomers will have died off for this to happen. I'll miss my parents, but I damn sure won't miss their generation.
 
2013-10-13 07:30:55 PM
This is exactly what Republicans want - a third world US.  The future always scares them.

The Chinese are more than happy to take advantage of conservative stupidity.
 
2013-10-13 07:32:00 PM
China using our internal conflict as an opportunity to wave their dick around is sooooo unexpected.
 
2013-10-13 08:20:08 PM
And this growing sentiment in the world because of this crap the Tea Baggers pulled won't deter them or their supports one bit. In their mind they say the hell with them, if they don't like us we will bomb them and war them until they do.
 
2013-10-13 08:35:50 PM

whistleridge: sendtodave: whistleridge: Pot, meet kettle. And a biased pot, at that.

If this were Switzerland calling for it, it would be one thing. But the one country that has the most to gain from such a thing, as well as the one country that has an even longer record of hypocrisies and abuses, well...

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch. The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.

So, you don't have a problem with the argument, just with who is making it.

I think there's a term for that. What was it?

Ad hominy? Ad homophone? Something like that.

Actually, I have a problem with the argument too. But credibility does matter, and China has none. As I indicated.

So your argument is reminding me of something about a fallacy fallacy...

His claim is utter bullshiat.  Our problems are purely electoral. If we shiat out the Tea Baggers and put together a competent government for 5 years, we'll be rolling in dough. It will be the 90s all over again. And in 10 years tops, enough Boomers will have died off for this to happen. I'll miss my parents, but I damn sure won't miss their generation.


Fair enough. What are the odds of getting rid of the baggers when the GOp has the house locked up for the foreseeable future, and "moderate" are scared of being primaried from the right if hey don't move in (grid)lock step?

Thus, to things we'd actually have to "shiat out" the people voting for the tea baggers. Which isn't really possible, and if it is, well, it's disenfranchisement.

China's argument continues to be that democracies aren't stable. Until these yahoos shut down everything, I wouldn't have agreed.
 
2013-10-13 08:36:50 PM

sendtodave: whistleridge: sendtodave: whistleridge: Pot, meet kettle. And a biased pot, at that.

If this were Switzerland calling for it, it would be one thing. But the one country that has the most to gain from such a thing, as well as the one country that has an even longer record of hypocrisies and abuses, well...

The problems in the US are a temporary hitch. The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.

So, you don't have a problem with the argument, just with who is making it.

I think there's a term for that. What was it?

Ad hominy? Ad homophone? Something like that.

Actually, I have a problem with the argument too. But credibility does matter, and China has none. As I indicated.

So your argument is reminding me of something about a fallacy fallacy...

His claim is utter bullshiat.  Our problems are purely electoral. If we shiat out the Tea Baggers and put together a competent government for 5 years, we'll be rolling in dough. It will be the 90s all over again. And in 10 years tops, enough Boomers will have died off for this to happen. I'll miss my parents, but I damn sure won't miss their generation.

Fair enough. What are the odds of getting rid of the baggers when the GOp has the house locked up for the foreseeable future, and "moderate" are scared of being primaried from the right if hey don't move in (grid)lock step?

Thus, to things we'd actually have to "shiat out" the people voting for the tea baggers. Which isn't really possible, and if it is, well, it's disenfranchisement.

China's argument continues to be that democracies aren't stable. Until these yahoos shut down everything, I wouldn't have agreed.


Fix things, even.
 
2013-10-13 08:40:50 PM

b2theory: sendtodave: b2theory: A couple things worth pointing out. While the current situation in the US is a politically motivated contrived problem that we truly have the economic luxury to experience, China is among the last countries that should be throwing stones. Here are some reasons:

1: We are not systematicly fabricating our economic growth data.
2: We are not currently in a recession, as much of the data out of China appears to indicate.
3: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck.
4: As bad of a job as we do at it, we still have a social safety net. It's interesting that the people's government doesn't provide an equivalent to social security.
5: We don't have to juice our economy through perpetual make-work projects which make up roughly half of their economy.
6: We don't raid the savings of our citizens to pay for those projects and then hide it through shady accounting practices and dubious wealth management projects that even the Icelandic banks would consider dirty.
7: You have been saying the same thing for the past couple years. Yet in that period the US Dollar has further cemented itself as the reserve currency of choice while your currency is used internationally something like 10 times less than the Mexican Peso.
8: You get to be in that position because of transparency an aggressive public accounting practices (none of which you have). Do you know what you get when you have those things? You get public fights about how to spend limited public resources. When you can't just bribe the proper people and falsify your data, you have to actually solve problems when parties have competing agendas.
9: Our debt issues are nothing compared to yours. Since most corporate and provincial debt ends up as a liability to the central government, yours is higher as a percentage of GDP and is growing way faster than ours.

If our country and system suck so much why are all of your countries elites trying to get their assets in American, Canadian, and European banks/real estate? Why are so many if them seeking US and Canadian green cards?

Ad homily maybe?

Anyway, pointing out their dysfunction doesn't really absolve our own. Unless you are arguing that, realatively, our dysfunction is ok.

And that would be dumb.

In a game of who is going to do more damage to the world economy, China's economy is a significantly bigger threat.

A proper correction to their economy (on the scale of the Asian financial crisis) will drop them from the number two spot to at least number three if not lower.


Number two is still Japan, right?Are they still contracting? Haven't checked.

Anyway, long term, I don't see Japan holding the number two spot, even if it s found that they still have it.

Unless you mean the EU?

Anyway, none of this addresses the argument that the US economy and leadership isn't stable.

Just pretend some left wing pundit on huffpo has made that argument. Still wrong?
 
2013-10-13 08:48:15 PM
Bah, tried to submit this earlier with a better headline :(

/Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here!
 
2013-10-13 09:36:03 PM

simplicimus: So they're worried about the 5 trillion dollars they hold and want a new currency to replace the dollar? Where they gonna go, the Euro?


goldsilverworlds.com
 
2013-10-13 09:41:05 PM
Does the fact that if China were to start dumping their treasury holdings it would cause massive economic hardship for us escape the people on this message board?  You are acting as though that because China has economic problems of their own (and they do, and they are significant) that they do not pose a threat to dollar hegemony, which they clearly do.  They are internationalizing the yuan, they have stopped Treasury purchases, they are calling for an end to dollar hegemony.

And without dollar hegemony, our standard of living immediately collapses.
 
2013-10-13 09:47:44 PM

MattStafford: Does the fact that if China were to start dumping their treasury holdings it would cause massive economic hardship for us escape the people on this message board?  You are acting as though that because China has economic problems of their own (and they do, and they are significant) that they do not pose a threat to dollar hegemony, which they clearly do.  They are internationalizing the yuan, they have stopped Treasury purchases, they are calling for an end to dollar hegemony.

And without dollar hegemony, our standard of living immediately collapses.


Just curious, why does our standard of living drop if the dollar isn't the reserve currency?  Europe is doing well despite not having reserve currency status.  The interest rate hikes are what scare me, that borrowing money will start to get really dang expensive.
 
2013-10-13 10:02:46 PM
Yeah, well. China's being stiffed on that trillion and change debt would be greeted by the GOP fever swamps by a run to their local Walmart's "Going Out Of Business" sale for their entire stock of popcorn.

Announcing that default would destroy the Chinese economy, the American welfare state and the global banking system in one go isn't how you convince a teahadi that default would be a bad thing.
 
2013-10-13 10:11:01 PM

MattStafford: Does the fact that if China were to start dumping their treasury holdings it would cause massive economic hardship for us escape the people on this message board?  You are acting as though that because China has economic problems of their own (and they do, and they are significant) that they do not pose a threat to dollar hegemony, which they clearly do.  They are internationalizing the yuan, they have stopped Treasury purchases, they are calling for an end to dollar hegemony.

And without dollar hegemony, our standard of living immediately collapses.


I wasn't aware that treasuries were liquid assets... Dumping their treasuries would basically ruin all the hard work and shifty economics they've put into building up those treasury assets. As well as make it harder for them to keep doing what they've been doing with their shady economic and monetary policies. I think China would fare much worse than the US if the US were to default. That is China has been sweeping things under the rug for a long while and eventually its all going to come tumbling out whether its now or later doesn't matter. Note that defaulting would be pretty bad for the US, but not the end of our entire economy.
 
2013-10-13 10:32:05 PM

Brontes: Just curious, why does our standard of living drop if the dollar isn't the reserve currency?  Europe is doing well despite not having reserve currency status.  The interest rate hikes are what scare me, that borrowing money will start to get really dang expensive.


The reason our borrowing costs have been so low for so long is that there is such high demand for dollars.  Everyone wants them.  But people don't want to just have dollars sitting around in bank vaults, so they invest them.  And of course, the best thing to invest dollars in is US treasuries.  If I don't want dollars anymore, why would I buy US treasuries?  Borrowing costs skyrocket.  US can't afford trillion dollar deficit anymore.  Results in either massive austerity or massive inflation from money printing.
 
2013-10-14 01:57:01 AM

Tax Boy: b2theory: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck

[www.washingtonpost.com image 531x222]

[ideasinspiringinnovation.files.wordpress.com image 308x308]

Unless you're the GOP


I don't see how that's a crippling demographic issue.
 
2013-10-14 01:57:36 AM
Seems more like a good thing, given current GOP politics.
 
2013-10-14 04:26:49 AM

whistleridge: The problems in the US are a temporary hitch.


Uh, no. The problems in the US are caused by a political system that may have been awesome in 1787, but is now hopelessly outdated. The US would have to throw out all it's laws and write a new constitution to fix things, and we all know that's never going to happen. Besides, with so many USAns still stupid enough to vote GOP, this hypothetical new constitution would only be worse than the one the US already have.

Yes, the current problem is a temporary hitch, and when it's solved the US will stumble into the next temporary hitch, and the next, and the next, until the US is the third-world theocracy the GOP wants it to be.

It seems to me that the founding fathers were so terrified of tyrants that they set up a system designed to be in permanent gridlock. The problem with this is that corruption always finds a way, while the gridlock prevents anyone from doing anything about it.

The problems in China are systemic and will never be resolved at the current rate.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. China is in a period of very rapid change.
 
2013-10-14 06:30:12 AM
"China's official news agency has called for the creation of a "de-Americanised world", saying the destinies of people should not be left in the hands of a hypocritical nation with a dysfunctional government. "

I think they might have a point.
 
2013-10-14 09:00:29 AM

b2theory: A couple things worth pointing out. While the current situation in the US is a politically motivated contrived problem that we truly have the economic luxury to experience, China is among the last countries that should be throwing stones. Here are some reasons:

1: We are not systematicly fabricating our economic growth data.
2: We are not currently in a recession, as much of the data out of China appears to indicate.
3: We don't have a crippling demographic issue breathing down our neck.
4: As bad of a job as we do at it, we still have a social safety net. It's interesting that the people's government doesn't provide an equivalent to social security.
5: We don't have to juice our economy through perpetual make-work projects which make up roughly half of their economy.
6: We don't raid the savings of our citizens to pay for those projects and then hide it through shady accounting practices and dubious wealth management projects that even the Icelandic banks would consider dirty.
7: You have been saying the same thing for the past couple years. Yet in that period the US Dollar has further cemented itself as the reserve currency of choice while your currency is used internationally something like 10 times less than the Mexican Peso.
8: You get to be in that position because of transparency an aggressive public accounting practices (none of which you have). Do you know what you get when you have those things? You get public fights about how to spend limited public resources. When you can't just bribe the proper people and falsify your data, you have to actually solve problems when parties have competing agendas.
9: Our debt issues are nothing compared to yours. Since most corporate and provincial debt ends up as a liability to the central government, yours is higher as a percentage of GDP and is growing way faster than ours.

If our country and system suck so much why are all of your countries elites trying to get their assets in American, Canadian, and European banks/real estate? Why are so many if them seeking US and Canadian green cards?


1., 2. Manipulation of the CPI greatly influences the GDP growth figures. Does anybody actually know how unemployment is calculated anymore, as I still see just as many people out of work as I did 3 years ago, but things are "so much better".

3. The middle class has been largely replaced with "working poor".

4. You're right on that one. Half a loaf is better than none.

5. GE, Honeywell, Lockheed, General Dynamics, Westinghouse, Grumman, KBR, BAH, Halliburton...

6. SS hasn't been its own entity since Clinton "balanced the budget".

7., 8. I'll give you those as well

9. Apples to oranges. Total debt vs total debt is the only acceptable comparison when comparing communism to capitalism. Public vs public is meaningless, which is the point you unintentionally make.
 
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