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(Christian Science Monitor)   Toyota to release new line of self-accelerating cars   (csmonitor.com) divider line 19
    More: Cool, Toyotas, autonomous vehicle, traffic fatalities, cars  
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2207 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Oct 2013 at 10:50 AM (49 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-13 10:56:43 AM
The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.
 
2013-10-13 11:17:59 AM

Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.


Pretty much this.

I understand the purpose behind the technology and if someone is absolutely not paying attention it could help avoid a collision, but what are the odds of it swerving to miss one object only to put you in front of something even worse? Also, when the car does take over, is it even possible to regain control yourself? All things considered I think I'll take my chances with my own abilities.
 
2013-10-13 11:23:17 AM

ReapTheChaos: Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.

Pretty much this.

I understand the purpose behind the technology and if someone is absolutely not paying attention it could help avoid a collision, but what are the odds of it swerving to miss one object only to put you in front of something even worse? Also, when the car does take over, is it even possible to regain control yourself? All things considered I think I'll take my chances with my own abilities.


That part of the human folly, people think they are much safer driving than what they actually are.  Think of features like ABS that seem like a no-brainer now but in actuality it's a response to humans doing the wrong thing such as jamming on the breaks.  Humans were never designed to go 60 mph or faster and therefor their reactions are not geared towards it and many errors are made. The more we take out of people hands when it comes to driving the safer the vehicles will be. It'll seem a bit weird when a car makes you do something you think is wrong at first, but it's a lot less awkward than looking at the back of a car you just nailed.
 
2013-10-13 11:27:53 AM

Reverend J: ReapTheChaos: Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.

Pretty much this.

I understand the purpose behind the technology and if someone is absolutely not paying attention it could help avoid a collision, but what are the odds of it swerving to miss one object only to put you in front of something even worse? Also, when the car does take over, is it even possible to regain control yourself? All things considered I think I'll take my chances with my own abilities.

That part of the human folly, people think they are much safer driving than what they actually are.  Think of features like ABS that seem like a no-brainer now but in actuality it's a response to humans doing the wrong thing such as jamming on the breaks.  Humans were never designed to go 60 mph or faster and therefor their reactions are not geared towards it and many errors are made. The more we take out of people hands when it comes to driving the safer the vehicles will be. It'll seem a bit weird when a car makes you do something you think is wrong at first, but it's a lot less awkward than looking at the back of a car you just nailed.


Yeah that's pretty much the sales pitch, but it didn't really answer my questions.
 
2013-10-13 11:38:23 AM

Reverend J: ReapTheChaos: Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.

Pretty much this.

I understand the purpose behind the technology and if someone is absolutely not paying attention it could help avoid a collision, but what are the odds of it swerving to miss one object only to put you in front of something even worse? Also, when the car does take over, is it even possible to regain control yourself? All things considered I think I'll take my chances with my own abilities.

That part of the human folly, people think they are much safer driving than what they actually are.  Think of features like ABS that seem like a no-brainer now but in actuality it's a response to humans doing the wrong thing such as jamming on the breaks.  Humans were never designed to go 60 mph or faster and therefor their reactions are not geared towards it and many errors are made. The more we take out of people hands when it comes to driving the safer the vehicles will be. It'll seem a bit weird when a car makes you do something you think is wrong at first, but it's a lot less awkward than looking at the back of a car you just nailed.


The problem with human folly is the law of unintended consequences.... I can imagine many scenarios where I have to choose between the least bad of many bad options...  I do not want my car swerving me away from a collision with something I chose just because the computer sees a blank spot to my right or left...
 
2013-10-13 11:39:41 AM
Every time I see commercials with the auto breaking system it shows multiple vehicles being driven with no regard for standard safety practices like proper follow distance.   There's a commercial out now for some sort of luxury vehicle advertising their radar package with the driver tailing a heavy truck, which is tailing a car that's tailing another truck with unsecured cargo, all on a tight mountain road.

Given that this is what I see normally in the DC metro area I can understand that manufacturers want to put safety features in, but there's no way I want to be driving with them in my vehicle.  ABS is nice since it allows more maneuverability while breaking hard, and as I do drive an ambulance occasionally I can appreciate that.
 
2013-10-13 11:41:00 AM

ReapTheChaos: Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.

Pretty much this.

I understand the purpose behind the technology and if someone is absolutely not paying attention it could help avoid a collision, but what are the odds of it swerving to miss one object only to put you in front of something even worse? Also, when the car does take over, is it even possible to regain control yourself? All things considered I think I'll take my chances with my own abilities.


The idea is that it senses when you are veering over the line, and guides the car back into your lane.  It is changing the direction by a couple of degrees, not violently throwing the car sideways.  The ones I've seen can be overridden by reasonable force on the steering wheel - otherwise you could never change lanes or pass.  As far as the underlined part: virtually nil.  This is preventing you from drifting out of your lane.  If the worse thing is actually in your lane and you are so out of it you were lazily drifting, you were already dead from a terminal case of the farking stupids - nothing of value has been lost.  Also, having seen most people drive, let me say that a system that purposefully and violently shoved a car around the highway in an erratic and borderline suicidal way would be a couple orders of magnitude better than your abilities. (Yeah, yeah, you are the only safe driver in existence and perform every action with such perfection that God weeps at His inadequacies)
 
2013-10-13 11:42:33 AM

Farnn: The idea of cars that monitor while I drive and make decisions if they think a collision is imminent freaks me out.  Either give me a car that does all the driving or let me have full control.


I agree. Monitors are OK as long as they are there to inform, and without being too distracting. In a stressful situation where you're trying to avoid an accident or respond to rapidly-changing situations, the last thing you need is that voice coming on... "WARNING! YOU ARE TOO CLOSE TO THE RUMBLE STRIP! WOULD YOU LIKE TO CONTINUE? PRESS OK FOR YES, CANCEL FOR NO." My Flex does something similar; at random times, a loud voice comes on asking if I would "like to run a vehicle diagnostics check". Freaks me out, and that's about the last thing I want to have to respond to when I'm navigating heavy traffic around the Terwilliger curve. Why not have it come on when I first start the car? I can respond and press all the buttons I need to then.

And taking control is right out. These systems are designed to detect and respond to changing conditions in a very small monitoring area. But they can't see a quarter mile ahead or behind; maybe I'm moving halfway into the next lane because I'm trying to get around a large piece of debris in my lane. Maybe I need to get off to the shoulder in a hurry because an emergency vehicle is approaching; conversely, if the system is designed to get me off the road when it detects an emergency vehicle transponder, maybe I can see a better place to do it in the parking lot I can pull into in 300 feet rather than abruptly being taken to the side of the road. And I have no idea how these things are going to work in extreme weather conditions (but they're smart people, I'm sure they're working on that).

There are some of these systems being done right. The other day someone mentioned that their new car had a blind spot detector. If an object is in the blind spot, a red indicator shows up in your side mirror. Nice way to go; relatively easy to see but not distracting.

I think many of these things *can* work but it will take some time and we'll need to reach some threshold of cars that have them before they're truly useful (the automotive version of Metcalfe's Law). In the meantime I wonder if it may make things worse. If I have the self-driving system, my car now becomes the unknown and erratic factor on the road. I'm now the one jumping lanes and making other cars respond to me. There's a big psychological impact of these things, and the rash of incidents over the past few years regarding GPS is a good example and possible predictor. People with these systems are likely to become far more complacent, and people who don't have them may incrementally and subconsciously start to drive more aggressively because they assume "that new car right behind be and to the right probably has a self-driving system, so if I zip over right in front of her I'm sure the car will compensate and slow her down."

Seems me that to a good approach, at least in the short term, would be to leverage the "internet of things" idea and invest resources into providing transponders and other real-time monitoring infrastructure along roads that can alert drivers (and their cars) to conditions up ahead, as well as provide better feedback into the traffic monitoring system. Those things can have a much more immediate benefit, are are not mutually exclusive to other advances on the "self-driving" front.
 
2013-10-13 11:55:55 AM

Maul555: That part of the human folly, people think they are much safer driving than what they actually are.  Think of features like ABS that seem like a no-brainer now but in actuality it's a response to humans doing the wrong thing such as jamming on the breaks.  Humans were never designed to go 60 mph or faster and therefor their reactions are not geared towards it and many errors are made. The more we take out of people hands when it comes to driving the safer the vehicles will be. It'll seem a bit weird when a car makes you do something you think is wrong at first, but it's a lot less awkward than looking at the back of a car you just nailed.

The problem with human folly is the law of unintended consequences.... I can imagine many scenarios where I have to choose between the least bad of many bad options...  I do not want my car swerving me away from a collision with something I chose just because the computer sees a blank spot to my right or left...


That's exactly my point, the commercials for these systems always show a couple cars going 20 mph on residential streets, never bumper to bumper traffic going 50+ mph. Can these systems distinguish that there's a tree, guardrail, 15 ft drop off or even worse, a small child in the path it steers into? Also, just because a car suddenly stops in front of me doesn't mean swerving into the oncoming lane is a good idea, I'd rather rear end a car than go head on into another one.

Insurance liability is another issue, if a car runs a stop sign and I hit it, it's on him. If I swerve and hit something or someone else, that could very well fall on me.

Sorry but I just think there's a strong possibility for these systems doing more harm than good.
 
2013-10-13 12:47:40 PM
 the problem is people put more concern into coming out of a emergency situation with a car without a scratch then they are saving the lives of the people on the road. imho far too many accidents with fatalities and severe injuries could be avoided if the driver was willing to just go off the road and hit the guardrail,mailboxes, etc.. or make a fender bender. i've been the passenger in cars with the driver making a turn into the other direction's lane just to avoid a fender bender or a farking small animal.
 
2013-10-13 01:22:13 PM
FTFA: "In other words, not only does Cooperative-adaptive Cruise Control make use of typical adaptive cruise control features, it also sends a vehicle's speed data to the cars traveling behind it. If those vehicles are equipped with Cooperative-adaptive Cruise Control (or some other compatible system), "

So how long before you are in court with an officer saying things like "Your honor, the defendant's vehicle relayed its excess of speed to the system in my own vehicle, and that is why I initiated the traffic stop"

or better yet

"The vehicle system stated that it had been required to self-steer back into it's own lane X times in the previous Y miles, thus indicating that the driver was inebriated"

Another thought just came to me. Will this lane system keep the car from swerving back and forth when you ARE drunk? Not that this is the only thing that people do when they drive drunk, but is this one less indicator for the police to use to tell who might be DUI?
 
2013-10-13 04:28:33 PM

BretMavrik: If I have the self-driving system, my car now becomes the unknown and erratic factor on the road. I'm now the one jumping lanes and making other cars respond to me.


That's how half the people on my morning commute drive already anyway (and while doing ~80 in a 55, to boot) and , like <b>phalamir</b> said, the systems aren't designed to force you across multiple lanes of traffic into a ditch.  We're talking a few degrees' shift.

ReapTheChaos: Can these systems distinguish that there's a tree, guardrail, 15 ft drop off or even worse, a small child in the path it steers into? Also, just because a car suddenly stops in front of me doesn't mean swerving into the oncoming lane is a good idea, I'd rather rear end a car than go head on into another one.


Why are we assuming that the system is going to change lanes?  So far, the typical response in the systems I've seen is to slam on the brakes.

Google's self-driving cars have gone 500,000 miles without an accident, including freeway driving.  Based on the sheer number of dangerous, reckless, and just plain idiotic driving I see in my commute every day I'd absolutely trust the technology over other drivers.
 
2013-10-13 04:50:30 PM

IMDWalrus: BretMavrik: If I have the self-driving system, my car now becomes the unknown and erratic factor on the road. I'm now the one jumping lanes and making other cars respond to me.

That's how half the people on my morning commute drive already anyway (and while doing ~80 in a 55, to boot) and , like <b>phalamir</b> said, the systems aren't designed to force you across multiple lanes of traffic into a ditch.  We're talking a few degrees' shift.

ReapTheChaos: Can these systems distinguish that there's a tree, guardrail, 15 ft drop off or even worse, a small child in the path it steers into? Also, just because a car suddenly stops in front of me doesn't mean swerving into the oncoming lane is a good idea, I'd rather rear end a car than go head on into another one.

Why are we assuming that the system is going to change lanes?  So far, the typical response in the systems I've seen is to slam on the brakes.


The commercials I've been seeing on TV are not just breaking, but steering avoidance as well.
 
2013-10-13 06:35:02 PM
One Virus in that computer and you have the car version of "Speed"
 
2013-10-13 07:25:27 PM

Anthracite: One Virus in that computer and you have the car version of "Speed"


Minus the explosives, and plus the fact you can just turn the engine off
 
2013-10-13 09:36:52 PM
Toyotas: cars for people that think Applebees makes good steak and Nickelback is a great band.
 
2013-10-14 10:55:50 AM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Toyotas: cars for people that think Applebees makes good steak and Nickelback is a great band.


Nah, good cars for middle class people who don't want to spend extravagantly so they can enjoy more good steaks, and bands.

Or of course cars for the parents of trust fund babies, who are now spending the well earned money of their practical parents to buy Infinities, Acura's, and BMW's.
 
2013-10-14 11:13:17 AM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Toyotas: cars for people that think Applebees makes good steak and Nickelback is a great band.


Cars for people who aren't pretentious hipsters.

/enjoyed my corolla.
 
2013-10-14 02:31:23 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Toyotas: cars for people that think Applebees makes good steak and Nickelback is a great band.


Toyotas: cars for people looking for reliable transportation that don't define themselves, their values, their worth, or their style through a car.

/Honda driver
 
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