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(KRQE News)   What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt and ominous Mom of prayer, meant in croaking "Neverwhere"   (krqe.com) divider line 120
    More: Stupid, book banned, Alamogordo, prayers, R movies, Daily Star, mom  
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5905 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Oct 2013 at 12:16 PM (41 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-11 12:51:12 PM

dj_spanmaster: lockers: dj_spanmaster: I find the Bible, Koran, Torah, and Bhagavad Gita offensive! Now can we remove it (and this ridiculous "Creationism") from schools?

Mission accomplished. You can go through grade school and never read any of those.

True in some parts of the nation, not in all.


I'm ignorant if that you are right. Can you show me any public school were it isn't true?
 
2013-10-11 12:51:43 PM

astrochelonian: I read Neverwhere on my own initiative at age 16 and I remember it being spooky & awesome, but I don't remember anything explicit.


It's probably just that Hunter is a lesbian. I think. She is, right? It's been a few years since I read Neverwhere.
 
2013-10-11 12:52:22 PM

lockers: Talos: I've never understood the philosophy where ONE (ignorant) parent can make an entire school system adjust their teaching curriculum.

Gaze on the glory of appeasement. Never will you see a weaker will then one who would rather not fight at all.


I personally feel you're a bit off on your sentiment. There's 'rather not fight', and then there's 'refuses to fight'. I detest fighting, but that doesn't mean I won't stand up for my beliefs... it just means I'll first try and find a solution that doesn't require it, then go toe-to-toe if I can't. In this case, why the fark don't they just allow these parents to opt out/opt for something tamer?

Also, I feel bad for these kids. They're going to get out in the real world and have their precious pure minds blown.
 
2013-10-11 12:53:02 PM
Kids get to read Neil Gaiman in school now??  I mean, I got stuck with "Of Mice and Men" and "The Old Man and the Sea."  I had to find all the good literature, that didn't feel like they were ripping years out of my soul, on my own.
 
2013-10-11 12:53:55 PM

buny101: why is that you all worry about parental rights? 

I am against banning a book.... When I judge my children to be the appropiate age to handle certain subjects, I will let them.


I don't worry about parental rights, I know that there are parents who are homophobes.
 
2013-10-11 12:55:20 PM

ladyfortuna: lockers: Talos: I've never understood the philosophy where ONE (ignorant) parent can make an entire school system adjust their teaching curriculum.

Gaze on the glory of appeasement. Never will you see a weaker will then one who would rather not fight at all.

I personally feel you're a bit off on your sentiment. There's 'rather not fight', and then there's 'refuses to fight'. I detest fighting, but that doesn't mean I won't stand up for my beliefs... it just means I'll first try and find a solution that doesn't require it, then go toe-to-toe if I can't. In this case, why the fark don't they just allow these parents to opt out/opt for something tamer?


Curricula should not be at the discretion of the very people least qualified to educate their children. They didn't refuse to fight. Officials pushed back and she put in a little more effort and they caved.

Also, I feel bad for these kids. They're going to get out in the real world and have their precious pure minds blown.

Well, at least her kid.
 
2013-10-11 12:55:44 PM

TV's Vinnie: I'm torn between my fierce love of the First Amendment and my belief that people should be spared being forced to read Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.



Refresh my memory -- are you the guy who had a friend in some legal trouble who was a temporary fundraising poster boy for one of Neil's projects until he got thrown under the bus when he was no longer useful? Or was that another Farker?

Me, I like his stories and will happily consume what he writes. The whole celebrity thing gets grating after a while, though, in my opinion.
 
2013-10-11 12:56:37 PM

Egoy3k: buny101: why is that you all worry about parental rights?

Yeah but she had the book banned for everyone she didn't just get an exemption.


From my understanding of the article, it sounded like all she wanted was an exemption for her daughter. It was the district that took the knee jerk reaction of "banning the book" based on her complaint.
 
2013-10-11 12:58:19 PM

Dafatone: I don't actually think there's anything explicit in Neverwhere.

I'm amazed that one complaint constantly outweighs dozens of supporters.


"Supporters" don't really give a shiat if their kids are reading a particular book.  The real opposite of a complaining mother would be someone who was saying "The kids NEED to read this book."  That's not what happens.

On a related note - why in the fark do schools keep adding "controversial" (YMMV) books to their reading lists?  Is someone trolling?  Is some overly "progressive" school admin thinking kids should be exposed to "adult concepts"?  News flash: kids hate to read...so unless it's the next Twilight novel it might as well be Wuthering Heights.  Stop trying to engage students by picking contemporary literature that you know somebody is going to complain about.  You're just wasting time and resources for no good reason.  Protip: "Fark the religious assholes" is not a reason.
 
2013-10-11 12:58:38 PM
"I did state to the principal that this is rated-R material, and she can't get into a rated-R movie," Wilmott said.

I've never read the book, but I've seen enough movies to know that any film that doesn't include the f-word or nudity will get a PG-13, unless it's really, really gratuitously violent.

Does this book feature any of those things--f-words, nudity, or gratuitous violence?
 
2013-10-11 12:58:46 PM

Dafatone: I don't actually think there's anything explicit in Neverwhere.

I'm amazed that one complaint constantly outweighs dozens of supporters.


iirc, there is some sex and lots of f-bombs.

But I still say that this lady should be banned from the library instead of the book.
 
2013-10-11 12:59:20 PM
These kids = all the children of people like this woman, sorry.
 
2013-10-11 01:07:54 PM
I found Paterson Joseph of rather limited acting ability when he played the Marquis de Carabas, and I'm glad his name was quickly dismissed when brought up to be a new Doctor Who.
 
2013-10-11 01:18:03 PM

phaseolus: TV's Vinnie: ... Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.

Refresh my memory -- are you the guy ...



Never mind. I looked around a bit and now I see that was someone else.
 
2013-10-11 01:22:15 PM
TV's Vinnie:
I'm torn between my fierce love of the First Amendment and my belief that people should be spared being forced to read Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.

Neil Gaiman may not be Norman Mailer but just remind yourself that (per Sturgeon's Law) the vast, vast majority of fiction in any bookstore is bad.  Not just bad, painfully bad.  Gaiman writes good characters and has impressive ideas.  His writing is not perfect but he's still a better read than, say Jim Butcher to name another "dark urban fantasy" author who is quite popular.
 
2013-10-11 01:30:18 PM

buny101: why is that you all worry about parental rights? I have children. If I say that they can't read a book, it doesn't matter if it is "shades of gray" or if it is "my little pony saves the fair." It is my choice and my responsibility to judge what my children will be exposed to. I don't care if it is on the "required" reading list or not. I make the final determination of what my children are exposed to. For you to side with the school board shows you lack the confidence in being a parent.

I am against banning a book. My children are more than welcome to read whatever the heck they want when they get to age appropiate levels. I don't let them watch "Family Guy." If the school required them to watch it, the school will be informed that they are going to be lacking on this subject. Reading a book is no different. When I judge my children to be the appropiate age to handle certain subjects, I will let them.

It is just like "Ender's Game," right now. My son is 8, and he would probably think it is cool that an eight year old is going to save the earth, but due to the ongoing theme of homosexuality that runs rampant through all of Cards works, he can wait and read it as a teenager.


I disagree with your notion that you are your child's gatekeeper. You can't shelter your child from everything and expect them to group up well-adjusted (if you are able to succeed at sheltering them - good luck with that). What you can do is allow your child to experience the world for what it is and help guide them through it. You are trying to do what so many failed parents before you have tried to do and you are wrong.

Also, you sound like a complete nut case. Ender's Game a homosexual book? I know I didn't get that at all when I read it as a kid. But who cares if I had? If I already know what sexuality is, shouldn't I learn more about it from a reliable source? I suppose you think sexuality is a choice. If you don't, then why not let your child learn about it and teach them what it is?
 
2013-10-11 01:32:26 PM

astrochelonian: I read Neverwhere on my own initiative at age 16 and I remember it being spooky & awesome, but I don't remember anything explicit.


Obviously you are mistaken.  The mom in the story will find you and beat you senseless for being so oblivious to the damage that the book has done to your brain.
 
Ant
2013-10-11 01:38:34 PM
Oh no! Sexual innuendos and harsh language?!?

The funny thing is that truly horrific ideas can be, and regularly are, expressed using so-called decent language, but all these morons ever worry about is stupid four letter words.
 
Ant
2013-10-11 01:39:39 PM

Hickory-smoked: Maybe they should split the list into options


That wouldn't satisfy people like this.
 
2013-10-11 01:40:15 PM

gwowen: With the possible exception of Hunter's attire, what the hell is explicit about Neverwhere? The book and TV show where clearly designed for the Young Adult market.

Incidentally, the recent BBC Radio adaptation was pretty good. Croup and Vandemar especially so (Anthony Head, take a bow)


As much as I appreciate Anthony Head, he wasn't in Neverwhere.
 
2013-10-11 01:40:52 PM
I disagree with your notion that you are your child's gatekeeper. You can't shelter your child from everything and expect them to group up well-adjusted (if you are able to succeed at sheltering them - good luck with that). What you can do is allow your child to experience the world for what it is and help guide them through it. You are trying to do what so many failed parents before you have tried to do and you are wrong.

Also, you sound like a complete nut case. Ender's Game a homosexual book? I know I didn't get that at all when I read it as a kid. But who cares if I had? If I already know what sexuality is, shouldn't I learn more about it from a reliable source? I suppose you think sexuality is a choice. If you don't, then why not let your child learn about it and teach them what ...


Well, not taking parenting advice from you. My son would be very upset if I tried to shove a vibrator up his butt.

And, I was thinking about how you said my kids should experience everything. I don't think they've ever had serious burns. Should I stick their hand on the stove?
 
2013-10-11 01:40:54 PM

Hobodeluxe: facisto: "A parent can't read a 400-page-book to find out if it's appropriate," Wilmott said.

Actually, yes. Yes they can. And what was wrong/explicit in Neverwhere?

it reveals the terrible secret of sex.


Does it reveal the terrible secret of space?
 
2013-10-11 01:42:05 PM
I think a whole lot of people are getting butthurt without seeing this for what it is.  She didn't burn the book, she didn't ask for it to be removed from the school or public library.  All she did was ask that it not be part of the required reading curriculum because she didn't think it was appropriate for her kid.  The article suggested that a committee at the school read the book and arrived at the same conclusion.  So whats the drama?
 
2013-10-11 01:45:40 PM
I'm sorry but this is just a tragedy...I'm talking about the fact that not a single farker has said what needs to be said.  That headline, right there.

AWESOME.

HOTY candidate.
 
2013-10-11 01:46:21 PM

parkke0108: A real-life version of "Poe's Law"?


I think you're confused on your terminology. Poe's Law says basically says it's near impossible to make a parody of right-wing fundamentalism that one of them won't mean sincerely.

Banning a mildly challenging book is perfectly plausible in this context.
 
2013-10-11 01:47:14 PM

buny101: I disagree with your notion that you are your child's gatekeeper. You can't shelter your child from everything and expect them to group up well-adjusted (if you are able to succeed at sheltering them - good luck with that). What you can do is allow your child to experience the world for what it is and help guide them through it. You are trying to do what so many failed parents before you have tried to do and you are wrong.

Also, you sound like a complete nut case. Ender's Game a homosexual book? I know I didn't get that at all when I read it as a kid. But who cares if I had? If I already know what sexuality is, shouldn't I learn more about it from a reliable source? I suppose you think sexuality is a choice. If you don't, then why not let your child learn about it and teach them what ...

Well, not taking parenting advice from you. My son would be very upset if I tried to shove a vibrator up his butt.

And, I was thinking about how you said my kids should experience everything. I don't think they've ever had serious burns. Should I stick their hand on the stove?


Sorry, I didn't realize you were doing satire. The Boobies was good, your reply to me was a little over the top though.
 
2013-10-11 01:50:32 PM

ElStreak: gwowen: With the possible exception of Hunter's attire, what the hell is explicit about Neverwhere? The book and TV show where clearly designed for the Young Adult market.

Incidentally, the recent BBC Radio adaptation was pretty good. Croup and Vandemar especially so (Anthony Head, take a bow)

As much as I appreciate Anthony Head, he wasn't in Neverwhere.


Au contraire, my friend
 
Ant
2013-10-11 01:53:46 PM

PumpkinCake: I mean, I got stuck with "Of Mice and Men"


Holy crap! Sex and murder?!? Won't somebody think of the children!!!!
 
2013-10-11 01:59:16 PM

buny101: It is just like "Ender's Game," right now. My son is 8, and he would probably think it is cool that an eight year old is going to save the earth, but due to the ongoing theme of homosexuality that runs rampant through all of Cards works, he can wait and read it as a teenager.


Did you mean anti-homosexuality?  That's what Card has become infamous for, lately - being one of the looniest anti-gay activists who hasn't actually murdered any (yet).  I wouldn't let kids read any of his books because of that.
 
Ant
2013-10-11 02:00:16 PM

DontMakeMeComeBackThere: Stop trying to engage students by picking contemporary literature that you know somebody is going to complain about.


Maybe that's part of the plan:

-Assign "controversial" book
-Book gets banned by socially conservative morons
-Kid now really wants to read the book his parents don't want him/her to read
 
2013-10-11 02:02:31 PM

phaseolus: TV's Vinnie: I'm torn between my fierce love of the First Amendment and my belief that people should be spared being forced to read Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.


Refresh my memory -- are you the guy who had a friend in some legal trouble who was a temporary fundraising poster boy for one of Neil's projects until he got thrown under the bus when he was no longer useful? Or was that another Farker?

Me, I like his stories and will happily consume what he writes. The whole celebrity thing gets grating after a while, though, in my opinion.


You're thinking of someone else.

Not everyone is in love with that old Edward Scissorhands cosplayer.
 
2013-10-11 02:04:06 PM

No Such Agency: TV's Vinnie:
I'm torn between my fierce love of the First Amendment and my belief that people should be spared being forced to read Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.

Neil Gaiman may not be Norman Mailer but just remind yourself that (per Sturgeon's Law) the vast, vast majority of fiction in any bookstore is bad.  Not just bad, painfully bad.  Gaiman writes good characters and has impressive ideas.  His writing is not perfect but he's still a better read than, say Jim Butcher to name another "dark urban fantasy" author who is quite popular.


So, you're logic is that "well, Neil could be worse" makes it okay?
 
2013-10-11 02:11:26 PM

lockers: dj_spanmaster: lockers: dj_spanmaster: I find the Bible, Koran, Torah, and Bhagavad Gita offensive! Now can we remove it (and this ridiculous "Creationism") from schools?

Mission accomplished. You can go through grade school and never read any of those.

True in some parts of the nation, not in all.

I'm ignorant if that you are right. Can you show me any public school were it isn't true?


Alabama and Georgia, I know for certain. Kentucky too, if this wiki is to be believed. And probably Texas.

Science is repeatable in a lab or observable in nature, and Creationism/ID is neither. I'm offended.
 
2013-10-11 02:15:51 PM

lockers: dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?

I am just amazed that they require reading in Arizona.


New Mexico, tard.
 
2013-10-11 02:34:36 PM

phaseolus: tetsoushima: dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?

I thought "American Gods" was pretty good, though I don't know If i would require it.  Looks like I have to add "Neverwhere" to my list my short-list.


It's fun. It's Gaiman's most Harry Potter-ish book with its UK setting and hidden-secret-magic-world-behind-the-one-we're-used-to plot. It's a good story with an entertaining twist or two, hints at untold back stories, likeable characters, and villains with hints of fascinating unexplored depths to them.


You must never have read The Books of Magick then. Many argued that Harry Potter was a pretty blatant ripoff of the books given how many themes Potter took from it. A young Tim Hunter living a dull and boring life with an adopted father finds out he is to be a powerful magician, his parents were Faeries, and he is given a pet owl, and eventually shipped off to a school to learn magic. He even has an annoying adopted brother who is later turned into a man-pig.
 
2013-10-11 02:42:13 PM

worlddan: I'm sorry but this is just a tragedy...I'm talking about the fact that not a single farker has said what needs to be said.  That headline, right there.

AWESOME.

HOTY candidate.


I'm incredibly flattered, thank you. It's only my second submission and my first greenlight! ^_^

As far as the article itself goes, what really got me was her assertion that it wasn't her job to monitor her kid's reading, it was the schools.

Sorry, but no. Both my parents worked full-time, often 60+ hours a week, and my Mom still found the time to read most of the books I was assigned. Admittedly, in high school, that became a bit more difficult. (Especially with anything by Ayn Rand. ;p Ugh.) She trusted that she'd raised a daughter with good sense at the point. Fortunately she had.

I don't have the ability to read the school assignments of my step-kids, as they live with their mom and she doesn't divulge such info to my husband and I, but you can bet if I -did- have those girls under my roof, I'd be doing the same as my Mom.

Bottom line, I absolutely HATE it when someone says "It's not my job to parent my kid, it's the school's job." Fark that. A school's job is to educate. Period. Not be a mother or father to your precious snowflake. ;p
 
2013-10-11 02:44:23 PM
Bah. My punctuation is all farked up. That's what I get for posting when I'm distracted.
 
2013-10-11 02:44:42 PM

sanitybleeds: phaseolus: tetsoushima: dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?

I thought "American Gods" was pretty good, though I don't know If i would require it.  Looks like I have to add "Neverwhere" to my list my short-list.


It's fun. It's Gaiman's most Harry Potter-ish book with its UK setting and hidden-secret-magic-world-behind-the-one-we're-used-to plot. It's a good story with an entertaining twist or two, hints at untold back stories, likeable characters, and villains with hints of fascinating unexplored depths to them.

You must never have read The Books of Magick then. Many argued that Harry Potter was a pretty blatant ripoff of the books given how many themes Potter took from it. A young Tim Hunter living a dull and boring life with an adopted father finds out he is to be a powerful magician, his parents were Faeries, and he is given a pet owl, and eventually shipped off to a school to learn magic. He even has an annoying adopted brother who is later turned into a man-pig.


I guess what gave RK the edge was that her books were written in a manner that even ordinary, non-geek people enjoyed. Perhaps if Neil wasn't busy sniffing his own farts he might learn to write as well as she does.
 
2013-10-11 03:00:19 PM

TV's Vinnie: No Such Agency: TV's Vinnie:
I'm torn between my fierce love of the First Amendment and my belief that people should be spared being forced to read Neil F*CKING Giaman's overrated tripe.

Neil Gaiman may not be Norman Mailer but just remind yourself that (per Sturgeon's Law) the vast, vast majority of fiction in any bookstore is bad.  Not just bad, painfully bad.  Gaiman writes good characters and has impressive ideas.  His writing is not perfect but he's still a better read than, say Jim Butcher to name another "dark urban fantasy" author who is quite popular.

So, you're logic is that "well, Neil could be worse" makes it okay?


Anything that gets kids to read is a good idea IMO.  Sure, there are still reasons to teach the classics, but there are teachable points in contemporary works as well, and reading lists should evolve over time.
 
2013-10-11 03:04:50 PM

noitsnot: lockers: dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?

I am just amazed that they require reading in Arizona.

New Mexico, tard.


That was a joke.
Well played, lockers.
 
2013-10-11 03:17:28 PM
TV's Vinnie:
So, you're logic is that "well, Neil could be worse" makes it okay?

He could be a lot worse.  I think he's a better writer than JK Rowling, and people don't think her books are crap.  He's not "literary"... except that he actually is.  His books are not just plot.  They have genuine complexity that rewards a bit of deeper thought in a way that licensed Star Wars novels generally won't.

Teaching kids about literature is not productive IMHO if you also teach them to dislike literature by forcing them to digest a steady diet of 50-100 year-old books they have difficulty relating to.  All this does is separate a tiny minority who realize "gosh, wordy 19th-century novels are my favorite ever" from the majority who learn "reading is a joyless, confusing slog".  I think it really pays off to throw them a bone in the form of something they will naturally enjoy, and then offer them a look at the different layers it works on.
 
2013-10-11 03:18:02 PM

noitsnot: lockers: dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?

I am just amazed that they require reading in Arizona.

New Mexico, tard.


There is a New Mexico? How fast can we get a border fence around that?
 
2013-10-11 03:25:42 PM

worlddan: I'm sorry but this is just a tragedy...I'm talking about the fact that not a single farker has said what needs to be said.  That headline, right there.

AWESOME.

HOTY candidate.


It is good, once you understand what it's about, but I had no frickin' clue at first since I haven't really read any Gaiman.
 
2013-10-11 03:32:04 PM
Dafatone: I don't actually think there's anything explicit in Neverwhere.
I'm amazed that one complaint constantly outweighs dozens of supporters.

Well, the angel Islington is a fallen angel like Lucifer trying to break into heaven, so maybe she was offended by that. Or all the bad puns. Who names a character Door?
 
2013-10-11 03:36:20 PM

dustygrimp: When did Neil Gaiman become required reading?


When Neil Gaiman started writing.
 
2013-10-11 03:41:33 PM

Walker: You're offended? SO F*CKING WHAT????


encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
"Being offended is the natural consequence of leaving one's home."
 
2013-10-11 03:55:22 PM
Huh.

Apparently I read a different Neverwhere.
 
2013-10-11 04:48:07 PM
Most of Arizona public school sucks, but every so often you find a gem.   The school librarian has a list of all the books that have been removed from the shelves.. She keeps these books in a box at her desk and distributes them to anyone willing to discuss them with her.

My 13 yo daughter was talking about a book, "Running with Scissors", with her brother.  I figured if it warranted a teenaged conversation I should check it out.  Weird, wild stuff but a very good read.  Lots of the ghey seks and weird neurotic parents... I was not only happy that she was READING of her own VOLITION, but that she was able to hold up her end of a fairly deep conversation about the subject matter.

Also, she hates that twilight crap and thinks it is drivel.

\proud mother
 
2013-10-11 04:52:35 PM
Fark that coont. I'm just finishing up my audible copy of neverwhere (read the physical book a few years ago) and it is a farking awesome read. And really not very explicit. I mean the language is a bit course at times, but there's no explicit sex or drug use, and the violence always v cuts just short of getting actually gruesome. Bloody farking hell.
 
2013-10-11 04:52:38 PM

megarian: Huh.

Apparently I read a different Neverwhere.


You're desensitized. That sort of thing will happen. Usually a good shock will reinvigorate the nerves, like a slap or some electric current.

Wait, what were we talking about?
 
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