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(ESPN)   Pirates walk the plank   (scores.espn.go.com) divider line 101
    More: Spiffy, Adam Wainwright, pirates, Mark Melancon, World Series MVP, complete game, Jon Jay, Mike Matheny, Gerrit Cole  
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1036 clicks; posted to Sports » on 10 Oct 2013 at 6:36 AM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-10 06:39:15 AM
Cards were in cruise control
 
2013-10-10 06:49:45 AM
Pirates had a great season, but pitching was crucial. If they address that in the offseason, they could contend again.
 
2013-10-10 06:53:48 AM

Wettner: Pirates had a great season, but pitching was crucial. If they address that in the offseason, they could contend again.


I'm a cards fan... The Pirates will be in the mix for years to come. I, for one, enjoy it. I like when there are more competitive games during the season. This was a great series but am still puzzled by the start of Lynn in game two.
 
2013-10-10 06:55:45 AM
They need a #1 in the rotation and a bat.  Let see if they will get into a bidding war for Price.
 
2013-10-10 07:01:49 AM
There was no need for the Pirates to stick around once the PIT-ATL NLCS was no longer possible.

/Sid Bream's ghost disapproves
 
2013-10-10 07:12:06 AM
Great season, Pittsburgh.
 
2013-10-10 07:41:43 AM
Damn damn damn. Just couldn't keep up with their pitching. Oh well, it was all gravy. Go As, keep the small market dream alive!
 
2013-10-10 07:48:50 AM

Lost Thought 00: Damn damn damn. Just couldn't keep up with their pitching. Oh well, it was all gravy. Go As, keep the small market dream alive!


Los Angeles is a small market?
 
2013-10-10 07:51:15 AM

mark_bert: Lost Thought 00: Damn damn damn. Just couldn't keep up with their pitching. Oh well, it was all gravy. Go As, keep the small market dream alive!

Los Angeles is a small market?


Wat?
 
2013-10-10 07:53:35 AM
Good. Apocalypse averted.
 
2013-10-10 07:53:53 AM

JohnnyRebel88: They need a #1 in the rotation and a bat.  Let see if they will get into a bidding war for Price.


Starling Marte's been among the best leadoff hitters in the league all season (he had something like a 6.1 WAR), but he and Walker completely disappeared in this series. They each went 1 for 19, or something equally ridiculous. Another season in the majors will help Marte avoid that kind of fade again, hopefully, and Walker will always be streaky but can really have impact when he's on.
 
2013-10-10 08:15:25 AM
Spiffy? Sad tag must be on vacation or being held hostage in St. Louis.
 
2013-10-10 08:22:57 AM
This sucks.
 
2013-10-10 08:23:53 AM

Lost Thought 00: mark_bert: Lost Thought 00: Damn damn damn. Just couldn't keep up with their pitching. Oh well, it was all gravy. Go As, keep the small market dream alive!

Los Angeles is a small market?

Wat?


He is thinking of Philadelphia I think.
 
2013-10-10 08:28:27 AM

mark_bert: Los Angeles is a small market?


They don't even have a damn football team, ergo they must be smaller than Green Bay
 
2013-10-10 08:34:09 AM
After 20 losing seasons, we were just happy to be invited to the post season.  Good luck, Cards, no bad blood here.
 
2013-10-10 08:48:11 AM
They were family.

/nice season Pirates. May it be the foundation for many more playoff runs to come.
 
2013-10-10 08:48:30 AM
I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.  They have a $220 million payroll...isn't that like rooting for the Yankees in their heyday? If Ethier cannot play they will have two starters in the field that they developed through thier system - AJ Ellis and Puig.  All the others have been acquired through trades or FA signings.  I get that the Cards are there year after year and people get tired of that but still...

On another note, playing PIT the next few years is not going to be fun.  If they can get another starter behind Liriano and Cole they are going to be very good.  They need to decide what to do about their middle infielders as well.  Walker is far too streaky and the SS issues will hurt them in the long run.  I am more afraid of PIT than CIN at this point, although CIN will be better off without Dusty, especially if they make the postseason.
 
2013-10-10 08:57:14 AM
Yeah the only thing I like about the Dodgers is when Puig enrages racist sportswriters

Of course the Cardinals being lucky as hell year after year and that awful best fans in baseball narrative are annoying too
 
2013-10-10 09:03:51 AM

bluenote13: I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.  They have a $220 million payroll...isn't that like rooting for the Yankees in their heyday? If Ethier cannot play they will have two starters in the field that they developed through thier system - AJ Ellis and Puig.  All the others have been acquired through trades or FA signings.  I get that the Cards are there year after year and people get tired of that but still...


I don't understand why people might not cheer for my team. Everyone should like the things that my team does and hate the things that the other team does because my team is good and the other team is bad!
 
2013-10-10 09:11:12 AM

jonathan_L: Spiffy? Sad tag must be on vacation or being held hostage in St. Louis.


This - for once it would have been nice for the underdog to come out on top.

/go A's!
 
2013-10-10 09:18:34 AM

Jester38: JohnnyRebel88: They need a #1 in the rotation and a bat.  Let see if they will get into a bidding war for Price.

Starling Marte's been among the best leadoff hitters in the league all season (he had something like a 6.1 WAR), but he and Walker completely disappeared in this series. They each went 1 for 19, or something equally ridiculous. Another season in the majors will help Marte avoid that kind of fade again, hopefully, and Walker will always be streaky but can really have impact when he's on.


WAR?  Good god yall!  What is it good for?  Absolutely nothing in the playoffs, say it again...

As a Sox fan, I was hoping for The Pirates to take it to the ALCS, but I believe the Sox would have a better chance of beating the Dodgers than the Pirates if the Red Sox make it to the WS.  I understand they would like to use their farm system to win, but Curt Schilling mentioned that they should consider taking on a mentor-type pitcher for their rotation, like Dempster.  The talent is there, but they just need to get used to winning.  Lireano will be there another year but isn't the mentor-type of player needed according to Schilling.  I have to agree
 
2013-10-10 09:24:58 AM
Generally I have a soft spot for the Cards but I really wanted to see Pittsburgh take this.

That said, I'll be begrudgingly cheering on the A's as rooting for the Tigers is even worse.
 
2013-10-10 09:35:14 AM

bluenote13: I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.  They have a $220 million payroll...isn't that like rooting for the Yankees in their heyday? If Ethier cannot play they will have two starters in the field that they developed through thier system - AJ Ellis and Puig.  All the others have been acquired through trades or FA signings.  I get that the Cards are there year after year and people get tired of that but still...

On another note, playing PIT the next few years is not going to be fun.  If they can get another starter behind Liriano and Cole they are going to be very good.  They need to decide what to do about their middle infielders as well.  Walker is far too streaky and the SS issues will hurt them in the long run.  I am more afraid of PIT than CIN at this point, although CIN will be better off without Dusty, especially if they make the postseason.


A lot of people hate the cards, which doesn't help. LaRussa was a whiny biatch.
 
2013-10-10 09:38:01 AM

JohnnyRebel88: Jester38: JohnnyRebel88: They need a #1 in the rotation and a bat.  Let see if they will get into a bidding war for Price.

Starling Marte's been among the best leadoff hitters in the league all season (he had something like a 6.1 WAR), but he and Walker completely disappeared in this series. They each went 1 for 19, or something equally ridiculous. Another season in the majors will help Marte avoid that kind of fade again, hopefully, and Walker will always be streaky but can really have impact when he's on.

WAR?  Good god yall!  What is it good for?  Absolutely nothing in the playoffs, say it again...

As a Sox fan, I was hoping for The Pirates to take it to the ALCS, but I believe the Sox would have a better chance of beating the Dodgers than the Pirates if the Red Sox make it to the WS.  I understand they would like to use their farm system to win, but Curt Schilling mentioned that they should consider taking on a mentor-type pitcher for their rotation, like Dempster.  The talent is there, but they just need to get used to winning.  Lireano will be there another year but isn't the mentor-type of player needed according to Schilling.  I have to agree


A.J. Burnett has pretty unquestionably been that figure, the whole younger pitching staff mentions looking up to him/learning from him whenever they're asked. He sucked this postseason but actually had a pretty phenomenal season, and has become something of a local folk here since coming over from the Yankees.

As for WAR not mattering in the playoffs...I guess? But you need good players to  get you there, too, and he has definitely been one of those (more stats: .280 average, 41 stolen bases and a .343 OBP). Plus, y'know. This is a more or less routine play in the field for him. 2B and SS could definitely use an upgrade, but Marte had a phenomenal rookie season (even with lost time to injury), and has nothing but upside from here on out.
 
2013-10-10 09:38:15 AM
As sad as I am Pittsburgh is out, an NLCS matchup between the Cardinals and Dodgers will be pretty exciting.
 
2013-10-10 09:44:42 AM

bluenote13: I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.  They have a $220 million payroll...isn't that like rooting for the Yankees in their heyday? If Ethier cannot play they will have two starters in the field that they developed through thier system - AJ Ellis and Puig.  All the others have been acquired through trades or FA signings.  I get that the Cards are there year after year and people get tired of that but still...

On another note, playing PIT the next few years is not going to be fun.  If they can get another starter behind Liriano and Cole they are going to be very good.  They need to decide what to do about their middle infielders as well.  Walker is far too streaky and the SS issues will hurt them in the long run.  I am more afraid of PIT than CIN at this point, although CIN will be better off without Dusty, especially if they make the postseason.


Ethier came over from Oakland in the Milton Bradley deal. Kershaw and Jansen are among the home grown.
 
2013-10-10 09:57:14 AM
As sad as I am this morning, I realize that the Pirates were playing with house money after the got win #82.  Beating the Reds in the play-in game was gravy and nothing can take away from how amazingly awesome that night was.  I actually like the Cards and I wish them luck.  They and their fans have been great this year.  So at the very least, we ended the losing and gained some respect in the process.  No matter who wins the World Series, I would argue that no team in MLB came as far as the Pirates this year.

It's been an awesome ride!
 
2013-10-10 09:58:01 AM

H31N0US: This sucks.


Cheer up, the Steelers were already in the water to catch them.
 
2013-10-10 10:01:22 AM
I was rooting for the "scrappy" Bucs over the Cards, whom I've just grown tired of hearing about. I would've loved a Tigers/Bucs WS, because Comerica and PNC are sister parks, designed by the same main architect with a few similar features. But for now, I just have to hope that the Tigs' offense comes alive for JV for once this season and he delivers another stud performance so we can get past this really good A's team and have the pleasure of being hosted by the Red Sox in Fenway.

/yes, I can say we when referring to myself and the Tigers... I'm an usher and a tour guide for the franchise
//baseball slashies
 
2013-10-10 10:01:32 AM
My heart was pulling for the Pirates, but my head said Cards.

bluenote13: I am more afraid of PIT than CIN at this point, although CIN will be better off without Dusty, especially if they make the postseason.


The Reds may have faltered in the postseason under Dusty, but they don't get there without him. A lot of the Dusty hate is deserved, but I'd wager even more of it isn't.

It'll be interesting to see how the managerial carousel shakes out. The Cubs fired Sveum hoping they'd get a shot at Girardi, but the Yankees wouldn't even allow the Cubs to talk to him, and they just extended him 4 years. So, now that the Cubs' Plan A is shot down, maybe it's time to welcome Dusty back with open arms?
 
2013-10-10 10:04:17 AM

bluenote13: I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.



It's because people hate the cards. I don't want to root for the dodgers, but any team with the chance to send the cards home gets my support.

F the cards, F their fans.

/Baseball is serious business.
 
2013-10-10 10:05:29 AM
Fun one from the way-back machine, found while I was looking for something else:

A Fark thread for the 2011 amateur draft with the headline "Who will be the disappointing Pirates pick?"

The answer turned out to be some guy named Gerrit Cole.  But that was June of 2011, and it's only 2013, so he's probably still in AA ball somewhere, toiling in obscurity.  He probably looks really silly next to other top picks like his UCLA teammate Trevor Bauer.  Those crafty D-Backs.
 
2013-10-10 10:09:56 AM

ElwoodCuse: Yeah the only thing I like about the Dodgers is when Puig enrages racist sportswriters

Of course the Cardinals being lucky as hell year after year and that awful best fans in baseball narrative are annoying too


I am a cardinals fan and I can't stand the BFIB crap either. If someone says that, and is serious, I take what they say about baseball with a grain of salt.

I also saw someone say about Pittsburgh keeping the small market dream alive... what exactly makes a small market?
 
2013-10-10 10:12:03 AM

Uncle Pooky: bluenote13: I am a Cards fan but I am confused by the chatter that people are rooting for the Dodgers.


It's because people hate the cards. I don't want to root for the dodgers, but any team with the chance to send the cards home gets my support.

F the cards, F their fans.

/Baseball is serious business.


Can you give me a reason without using the word LaRussa?
 
2013-10-10 10:16:12 AM

JSam21: I also saw someone say about Pittsburgh keeping the small market dream alive... what exactly makes a small market?


It's a term that's bandied about a lot with no clear definition. In general it's supposed to refer to the team's media market which translates into the size of the TV deal they can get, which is the bulk of most team's incomes. What people -actually- mean when they use the term though is the team's operating budget regardless of media market. That's why the Oakland A's are considered "small market" despite playing in the 5th largest media market in the country.
 
2013-10-10 10:16:38 AM

Jester38: As for WAR not mattering in the playoffs...I guess? But you need good players to get you there, too, and he has definitely been one of those (more stats: .280 average, 41 stolen bases and a .343 OBP). Plus, y'know. This is a more or less routine play in the field for him. 2B and SS could definitely use an upgrade, but Marte had a phenomenal rookie season (even with lost time to injury), and has nothing but upside from here on out.


Anyone who pretends that a divisional series is a meaningful trial of who the better team was, or who the best players were, is fooling themselves.  It's 5 games, at the most.  Anyone can get hot for 5 games.  The best teams in baseball won 59.9% of their games.  The worst playoff team (the Reds) won 55.6% of their games, and the worst playoff team that made a Divisional Series (Tampa) won 56.4% of their games.

The best player in the postseason so far might be Coco Crisp.  Does anyone think Coco Crisp should be MVP because he "got hot when it counted"?  Of course not.  People say "He had a good couple of games."

You're correct.  Without Marte, the Pirates likely miss the playoffs.  That's how you build a roster-- get into the playoffs and hope for the best in the crapshoots that follow.  WAR is a perfectly reasonable way to measure that contribution.
 
2013-10-10 10:19:06 AM

JSam21: Can you give me a reason without using the word LaRussa?


Pooky will never get over Macho Grande 2011.

Personally, I'm just tired of the Cards' faces.
 
2013-10-10 10:19:46 AM

Ordius: I was rooting for the "scrappy" Bucs over the Cards, whom I've just grown tired of hearing about. I would've loved a Tigers/Bucs WS, because Comerica and PNC are sister parks, designed by the same main architect with a few similar features. But for now, I just have to hope that the Tigs' offense comes alive for JV for once this season and he delivers another stud performance so we can get past this really good A's team and have the pleasure of being hosted by the Red Sox in Fenway.

/yes, I can say we when referring to myself and the Tigers... I'm an usher and a tour guide for the franchise
//baseball slashies


As an A's fan of 47 years, your kind words are appreciated. You get it.

I hope my A's win today, but should they not, I hope the Tigers get another World Series pennant to fly over Comerica Park.
 
2013-10-10 10:22:54 AM

JSam21: I also saw someone say about Pittsburgh keeping the small market dream alive... what exactly makes a small market?


Their Opening Day payroll was $66M, 27th in baseball.  And we all know that dollars win games, which is why the 26th payroll (Oakland) and 28th payroll (Tampa) were also so bad this year, and the smart money is on the Yankees taking it all.  Salaries reflect talent, which is why the best two Braves are Dan Uggla ($13.1M) and B.J. Upton ($13.0M).

(Or that payrolls also reflect the percentage of young players a team can field.)
 
2013-10-10 10:24:25 AM

Ordius: I was rooting for the "scrappy" Bucs over the Cards, whom I've just grown tired of hearing about. I would've loved a Tigers/Bucs WS, because Comerica and PNC are sister parks, designed by the same main architect with a few similar features. But for now, I just have to hope that the Tigs' offense comes alive for JV for once this season and he delivers another stud performance so we can get past this really good A's team and have the pleasure of being hosted by the Red Sox in Fenway.

/yes, I can say we when referring to myself and the Tigers... I'm an usher and a tour guide for the franchise
//baseball slashies


Also, there's an interesting parallel -- with Jim Leyland at the Tigers helm, a lot of his coaching staff was on or has ties to the early '90's Pirates teams, inlcuding Gene Lamont, Raphael Belliard and formerly Andy van Slyke. Also Lloyd McClendon, but yeah...
 
2013-10-10 10:25:12 AM

The Bestest: JSam21: Can you give me a reason without using the word LaRussa?

Pooky will never get over Macho Grande 2011.

Personally, I'm just tired of the Cards' faces.


This is from Jeff Passan on Twitter and the reason why I feel the Cardinals do it "the right way"... "@JeffPassan: Every one of the Cardinals' 17 players on their NLDS roster making $490-$525K was drafted and developed by St. Louis. That is staggering."

17 players making $525k or less and every single one of them were drafted by the Cardinals. That is why the Cardinals have had and will continue to have success.
 
2013-10-10 10:28:41 AM
Cards fan here, and it was great to see the Pirates in the playoffs.  The NL Central race is going to wild for years with these two teams as good and young as they are.  You can probably add the Reds into the mix now that they've removed Baker...that's probably good for 5 more wins a year.
 
2013-10-10 10:29:32 AM

chimp_ninja: JSam21: I also saw someone say about Pittsburgh keeping the small market dream alive... what exactly makes a small market?

Their Opening Day payroll was $66M, 27th in baseball.  And we all know that dollars win games, which is why the 26th payroll (Oakland) and 28th payroll (Tampa) were also so bad this year, and the smart money is on the Yankees taking it all.  Salaries reflect talent, which is why the best two Braves are Dan Uggla ($13.1M) and B.J. Upton ($13.0M).

(Or that payrolls also reflect the percentage of young players a team can field.)


We can all cherry pick numbers. These are teh high payroll teams that have made the final 4 the last few years.

2013 - Cards, Dodgers, Boston, (maybe Tigers)
2012 - Giants, Yankees, Cards, Tigers
2011 - Rangers, Tigers, Cards
2010 - Rangers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies
2009 - Yankees, Angels, Phillies, Dodgers
2008 - Boston, Phillies, Dodgers
2007 - Boston
2006 - Cards, Mets, Tigers

There are exceptions, and there are no guarantees, but money buys you a significantly higher probability of making the final 4. In that same time frame, only once did a low payroll team make the WS, and they got swept
 
2013-10-10 10:30:54 AM

JohnnyRebel88: They need a #1 in the rotation and a bat.  Let see if they will get into a bidding war for Price.


Good.  We need dependable bats down here in St. Pete.
 
2013-10-10 10:32:08 AM

JSam21: This is from Jeff Passan on Twitter and the reason why I feel the Cardinals do it "the right way"... "@JeffPassan: Every one of the Cardinals' 17 players on their NLDS roster making $490-$525K was drafted and developed by St. Louis. That is staggering."

17 players making $525k or less and every single one of them were drafted by the Cardinals. That is why the Cardinals have had and will continue to have success.


You could say something similar about the late 90s Yankees, honestly. Yeah, they had several big name hired guns, but the core of the team back then were the young farmhands like Jeter, Posada, Mariano and Pettitte., with Bernie Williams as the not-quite-veteran.
 
2013-10-10 10:32:38 AM
I'm an idiot - 2 low payroll teams made the series in that time frame. Both lost
 
2013-10-10 10:32:53 AM

Lost Thought 00: chimp_ninja: JSam21: I also saw someone say about Pittsburgh keeping the small market dream alive... what exactly makes a small market?

Their Opening Day payroll was $66M, 27th in baseball.  And we all know that dollars win games, which is why the 26th payroll (Oakland) and 28th payroll (Tampa) were also so bad this year, and the smart money is on the Yankees taking it all.  Salaries reflect talent, which is why the best two Braves are Dan Uggla ($13.1M) and B.J. Upton ($13.0M).

(Or that payrolls also reflect the percentage of young players a team can field.)

We can all cherry pick numbers. These are teh high payroll teams that have made the final 4 the last few years.

2013 - Cards, Dodgers, Boston, (maybe Tigers)
2012 - Giants, Yankees, Cards, Tigers
2011 - Rangers, Tigers, Cards
2010 - Rangers, Yankees, Giants, Phillies
2009 - Yankees, Angels, Phillies, Dodgers
2008 - Boston, Phillies, Dodgers
2007 - Boston
2006 - Cards, Mets, Tigers

There are exceptions, and there are no guarantees, but money buys you a significantly higher probability of making the final 4. In that same time frame, only once did a low payroll team make the WS, and they got swept


Ok... what is a "high payroll" team? Over $100mm?
 
2013-10-10 10:36:06 AM
Man, that was a scary good Pirates team. Of course, they actually have quite a few free agents this offseason, so it'll be interesting to see who comes back. Burnett, Byrd, Barmes, Buck, and Morneau are all headed for free agency, and there's a ton of those young guys who are almost out of arbitration years, like Garrett Jones, Neil Walker, and Gaby Sanchez. Nobody really mentioned it during the series, but the Cards actually have a lot younger team that'll stay together longer than this current Pirates roster. I think the only major free agents the Cards have coming up are Beltran and Westbrook, whose option will almost certainly not be picked up. Wainwright, Molina, Holliday, Craig, and Jaime Garcia all have long term deals already, and I think only Freese and Jon Jay are getting into their arbitration years.

So yeah, this was a hell of a fight put up by the Pirates. Hopefully they'll be able to keep the gang together and both clubs can piss down on the Reds from great heights.
 
2013-10-10 10:36:53 AM

JSam21: Ok... what is a "high payroll" team? Over $100mm?


An arbitrary line I pulled out of my ass without looking up any details. Pretty much any team that has a reputation for handing out insanely huge, overpriced contracts to free agents
 
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