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(The Hill)   "In my mind the president has committed impeachable offenses." Well, to be fair, in Michele Bachmann's mind the President is funding terrorists, bringing about the biblical End Times, and probably uses ketchup on his hotdogs   (thehill.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, Michele Bachmann, President Obama, White House, Right Wing Watch, end times, Lord Jesus, Rusty Humphries  
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1698 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2013 at 6:26 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-10 09:17:02 PM

lohphat: demaL-demaL-yeH: Boloxor the Insipid: Obama has committed impeachable offenses, including ordering the assassination of an american citizen without due process.

Quick question:
Do you believe that a US citizen in a foreign country - who cannot be captured or extradited - actively allegedly conducting acts of war against the United States, recruiting and training terrorists from the United States to return and attack us, and acting as a senior member of AQAP, must be tried before he can be killed in action against the United States?

/Because I don't.

FTFY
What proof do you have these people have committed these alleged crimes?
We HAVE people in custody in Gitmo and the US refuses to allow them their day in court. They're being held without charges.
We have become that which we loathe.


1.a.  Battlefield does not require "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence.
   b. Even if I had access to the evidence beyond his own public statements, and the published confessions of other terrorists,
       I could and would not discuss them outside a windowless Faraday cage.
2. Gitmo is a disgrace.
3. No, we haven't, but Bush pushed us over the line in several places, and we're still stumbling our way back.
 
2013-10-11 01:44:09 AM

lohphat: demaL-demaL-yeH: Boloxor the Insipid: Obama has committed impeachable offenses, including ordering the assassination of an american citizen without due process.

Quick question:
Do you believe that a US citizen in a foreign country - who cannot be captured or extradited - actively allegedly conducting acts of war against the United States, recruiting and training terrorists from the United States to return and attack us, and acting as a senior member of AQAP, must be tried before he can be killed in action against the United States?

/Because I don't.

FTFY

What proof do you have these people have committed these alleged crimes?

We HAVE people in custody in Gitmo and the US refuses to allow them their day in court. They're being held without charges.

We have become that which we loathe.


Well, we sort of can't try them. They get their day in court, they go free. Held without any representation, held without any legal standing in our courts, they pretty much walk. Which was my argument about this "enemy combatant" crap in the first place. We had pursued this "War on Terror" from the get go as a criminal investigation, we could have a LOT of folks taking up cells at ADX Florence, but there is no way that we can try these folks. And at this point, we're stuck with holding them, or letting them go and letting them become symbols to drive up recruitment, and possibly even open the Fed up to damages.

But I was just called a RINO for bringing that up...
 
2013-10-11 03:17:07 AM

demaL-demaL-yeH: lohphat: demaL-demaL-yeH: Boloxor the Insipid: Obama has committed impeachable offenses, including ordering the assassination of an american citizen without due process.

Quick question:
Do you believe that a US citizen in a foreign country - who cannot be captured or extradited - actively allegedly conducting acts of war against the United States, recruiting and training terrorists from the United States to return and attack us, and acting as a senior member of AQAP, must be tried before he can be killed in action against the United States?

/Because I don't.

FTFY
What proof do you have these people have committed these alleged crimes?
We HAVE people in custody in Gitmo and the US refuses to allow them their day in court. They're being held without charges.
We have become that which we loathe.

1.a.  Battlefield does not require "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence.
   b. Even if I had access to the evidence beyond his own public statements, and the published confessions of other terrorists,
       I could and would not discuss them outside a windowless Faraday cage.
2. Gitmo is a disgrace.
3. No, we haven't, but Bush pushed us over the line in several places, and we're still stumbling our way back.


1. Has Congress declared war? The 90 day period of unilateral action by the POTS allowed by the 1973 War Powers Act has past.
2. Due process is a biatch. Welcome to the High Road, or do we just give that up and fully emulate the Soviets and respect the rule of law when it's convenient?
3. How many civilians and kids do we have to murder as well?

I learned that my 16-year-old grandson, Abdulrahman - a United States citizen - had been killed by an American drone strike from news reports the morning after he died.

The missile killed him, his teenage cousin and at least five other civilians on Oct. 14, 2011, while the boys were eating dinner at an open-air restaurant in southern Yemen.


Yes, the US sent in a missile and killed innocent civilians. What happened if a foreign power did that to any US city?
 
2013-10-11 03:23:12 AM

hubiestubert: Well, we sort of can't try them. They get their day in court, they go free. Held without any representation, held without any legal standing in our courts, they pretty much walk. Which was my argument about this "enemy combatant" crap in the first place. We had pursued this "War on Terror" from the get go as a criminal investigation, we could have a LOT of folks taking up cells at ADX Florence, but there is no way that we can try these folks. And at this point, we're stuck with holding them, or letting them go and letting them become symbols to drive up recruitment, and possibly even open the Fed up to damages.

But I was just called a RINO for bringing that up...


The "sources" for justifying holding people in Gitmo are often warring clans. No verifiable basis of detainment, no lawyer, no reprieve.

Isn't this the reason some old guys got together ~240 years ago and came up with something...

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
 
2013-10-11 04:57:00 AM

lohphat: 1. Has Congress declared war? The 90 day period of unilateral action by the POTS allowed by the 1973 War Powers Act has past.
2. Due process is a biatch. Welcome to the High Road, or do we just give that up and fully emulate the Soviets and respect the rule of law when it's convenient?
3. How many civilians and kids do we have to murder as well?

Yes, the US sent in a missile and killed innocent civilians. What happened if a foreign power did that to any US city?


Interesting. You'd find that I agree with you, for the most part.

There's always a however.

Congress has authorized the use of force against terrorists, wherever they may be found. The Administration is in compliance with the War Powers Act, which, by the way, is itself of dubious constitutionality.

Due process does not apply to combat, or are you talking about Gitmo again? If so, I agree that the men imprisoned there should have had due process in US courts under Amendment VI, military trials under the UCMJ (it was good enough to try Japanese and Germans accused of war crimes), or been set free. I am as disgusted by Gitmo as you are, if not more so: The very existence of that shameful prison puts Americans in danger.
As for the Muslim cleric, he was identified by the government of Yemen as a senior AQAP commander, the underoo bomber fingered him, and his fingerprints were all over the bombs in laser toner cartridges. His was a battlefield death, and there was no reasonable way he could have been captured and returned to the US  for trial.

Every unnatural human death is a tragedy, and war is murder. (I believe I even said that here on Fark a few days back.)

Yemen has authorized US drone strikes within their territory. But to answer your question, were a foreign power to do so on US territory without authorization, that country would receive an overwhelming and devastating response.

One final thought: I agree completely with you that terrorism should be treated as a criminal matter. Further, I know that there was no need to modify FISA in any way, on infringe on any American's rights under Amendment IV, V, VI, or VIII in order to target terrorists. Nor was it necessary to modify the Posse Comitatus Act, create DHS, or the foist the TSA on us and give them powers of search that police do not have.
 
2013-10-11 07:59:57 AM

lohphat: hubiestubert: Well, we sort of can't try them. They get their day in court, they go free. Held without any representation, held without any legal standing in our courts, they pretty much walk. Which was my argument about this "enemy combatant" crap in the first place. We had pursued this "War on Terror" from the get go as a criminal investigation, we could have a LOT of folks taking up cells at ADX Florence, but there is no way that we can try these folks. And at this point, we're stuck with holding them, or letting them go and letting them become symbols to drive up recruitment, and possibly even open the Fed up to damages.

But I was just called a RINO for bringing that up...

The "sources" for justifying holding people in Gitmo are often warring clans. No verifiable basis of detainment, no lawyer, no reprieve.

Isn't this the reason some old guys got together ~240 years ago and came up with something...

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


Yup. And the nation dodged all that by the excuse that THIS holding of folks was "different." And at this point, we can't figure out how to even think about bringing these folks to trial. And we're going to be on the hook with holding these folks for a damn long time...
 
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