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(Fox News)   Appellate Court rules spanking with wooden spoon not abuse if done correctly and a safe word is used   (foxnews.com) divider line 105
    More: Strange, Department of Social Services, Appeals Court, regulations, child abuses, trial courts, lower courts  
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1898 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2013 at 12:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-09 01:42:08 PM  

TNel: AkaDad: No, it was usually for a week or two and it showed her that her actions had consequences.

It's still just a waiting game, if they have other stuff taking that item teaches them nothing.


My daughter is in college right now, on a full scholarship, but you're probably right and I just got lucky.

*rolls eyes*
 
2013-10-09 01:42:27 PM  

jst3p: TNel: AkaDad: No, it was usually for a week or two and it showed her that her actions had consequences.

It's still just a waiting game, if they have other stuff taking that item teaches them nothing.

My personal experience is completely contrary to your opinion.


As is mine.
 
2013-10-09 01:43:02 PM  
I'm so glad the CPS folks got biatch slapped by the court.  There is too much secrecy and too little accountability in so many cases they get involved with.

I've had a caseworker look me in the eye and try to convince me that it was child abuse to yell at my kids, but calling the cops to haul them to juvenile was not abuse.  So, let me recap your thought process for you, lady:  the kid is too fragile to be yelled at, but can withstand the violation of personal privacy in a public setting, probable physical restraints, possible rape in an understaffed juvenile jail.  Is that the position you are willing to defend as reasonable?
 
2013-10-09 01:43:05 PM  
It all depends on point of view

smartaboutwine.files.wordpress.commedia.mlive.com
 
2013-10-09 01:47:04 PM  

AkaDad: TNel: AkaDad: No, it was usually for a week or two and it showed her that her actions had consequences.

It's still just a waiting game, if they have other stuff taking that item teaches them nothing.

My daughter is in college right now, on a full scholarship, but you're probably right and I just got lucky.

*rolls eyes*


Congrats I guess you want?  LIke people that got spanked can't get scholarships?  Jesus you people think achievement and punishment style go hand in hand are dumb.  Some people that get spanked are smart, some people that don't are smart the world is huge and it all averages to be the same, the way you punish your child does not sway how they turn out, excepting in abuse cases.
 
2013-10-09 01:47:24 PM  
Liberals: Against spanking but for global infanticide.
 
2013-10-09 01:48:23 PM  

Gonz: TNel: AkaDad: I always punished my daughter by taking away her favorite things and she eventually figured out it was better to be good. No, you cannot have a picture of her or her phone number.

And if their favorite item was expensive you end up giving it back so the punishment was them losing said item for a day or so?  What does that teach it's just a awaiting game that they will then move onto the next item to play with.

It's actually a very effective tool in the kit, provided the kid is old enough to understand causality.

Kids hate it when you take their stuff.


Yep, when my son was 3 taking his Buzz and Woody, which he LOVED, and hanging them where he could see them but not reach them was quite effective. Now taking their laptop or ipod, whichever they have been using the most at the time, works wonders. But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind TNel.Do what you need to in order to believe that the spankings you received were the only way you would have learned.
 
2013-10-09 01:50:33 PM  

Contrabulous Flabtraption: Liberals: Against spanking but for global infanticide.



Funny!
 
2013-10-09 01:50:46 PM  

TNel: the way you punish your child does not sway how they turn out,


Then how about we all agree that punishing them without hitting them is better for all involved? Spanking is lazy parenting.
 
2013-10-09 01:52:13 PM  

jst3p: Yep, when my son was 3 taking his Buzz and Woody, which he LOVED, and hanging them where he could see them but not reach them was quite effective. Now taking their laptop or ipod, whichever they have been using the most at the time, works wonders. But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind TNel.Do what you need to in order to believe that the spankings you received were the only way you would have learned.


I have 3 boys ages 6,5,4 so please try and say how I don't have kids and how great parents you are I think it's amusing.  I'm sure that one child of yours was soo tough to raise.
 
2013-10-09 01:57:27 PM  

jst3p: TNel: the way you punish your child does not sway how they turn out,

Then how about we all agree that punishing them without hitting them is better for all involved? Spanking is lazy parenting.


How about we agree that what works for one child doesn't on another?  On my one son it only took one time of being spanked, not so much for the other, and the last one has yet to be spanked. You guys act like spanking parents spank their kids on a daily basis.
 
2013-10-09 01:58:48 PM  

TNel: jst3p: Yep, when my son was 3 taking his Buzz and Woody, which he LOVED, and hanging them where he could see them but not reach them was quite effective. Now taking their laptop or ipod, whichever they have been using the most at the time, works wonders. But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind TNel.Do what you need to in order to believe that the spankings you received were the only way you would have learned.

I have 3 boys ages 6,5,4 so please try and say how I don't have kids and how great parents you are I think it's amusing.  I'm sure that one child of yours was soo tough to raise.


It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

I have two and two step kids, one with ADD, do you want to pull more information about my life and experience out of your ass? More than one poster in this thread have had success with discipline methods that you dismissed as "teaching them nothing". You have been shown that you are wrong about that. Is it possible that you are wrong in believing spanking is best for your kids?

I don't expect an honest answer, that would require a level of objectivity and introspection that many aren't capable of.

I am not saying you will break your kids by spanking them, maybe you will and maybe you wont. What I can say is that it isn't required in order to raise well behaved kids, and you will never know the joy of having a daughter who says "Daddy, I love knowing that you will never hurt me on purpose."

Yeah, she actually said that in a discussion contrasting me and her mom's discipline styles.
 
2013-10-09 02:00:12 PM  

jst3p: TNel: the way you punish your child does not sway how they turn out,

Then how about we all agree that punishing them without hitting them is better for all involved? Spanking is lazy parenting.


Subjective, unsubstantiated opinion is subjective and unsubstantiated.

It's like trying to someone if they're educated in public schools they can't become an astronaut while an astronaut who was educated in public schools tells you you're wrong.

It's pretty amusing to watch, really.
 
2013-10-09 02:01:21 PM  

jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.


So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "
 
2013-10-09 02:02:25 PM  
my dad had a full battery of violence, kicking, hitting, slapping, switches, belt.

he recently died.

I was told that he died after a long illness and accident.

I devoted my adult life to not being like him.
 
2013-10-09 02:03:15 PM  

TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "


I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.
 
2013-10-09 02:05:35 PM  

madgordy: my dad had a full battery of violence, kicking, hitting, slapping, switches, belt.

he recently died.

I was told that he died after a long illness and accident.

I devoted my adult life to not being like him.


I would hope nobody would want to be like that since that is clearing child abuse and probably some mental illness on top of it.  If we had better screening in the US he probably could have had the help he needed long before he would have hurt anyone.
 
2013-10-09 02:07:09 PM  
Does this ruling mean I can hit law enforcement officers with a spoon when they're being disrespectful and "other discipline" is ineffective? What about my employees? My spouse?

/ Can't understand why hitting (with a weapon) is good, but only for children
 
2013-10-09 02:07:09 PM  

jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.


While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?
 
2013-10-09 02:08:13 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?


Huh, where did I do that?
 
2013-10-09 02:08:52 PM  

profplump: Does this ruling mean I can hit law enforcement officers with a spoon when they're being disrespectful and "other discipline" is ineffective? What about my employees? My spouse?

/ Can't understand why hitting (with a weapon) is good, but only for children


Because, the Bible.
 
2013-10-09 02:10:19 PM  

jst3p: and you will never know the joy of having a daughter who says "Daddy, I love knowing that you will never hurt me on purpose."


Really?  You think I don't get notes from my sons saying how much they love me and I'm the greatest?  You really think getting spanked hurts?  My kids hurt each other daily more than any of the spanks they have ever received from me, heck probably combined.

Plus you have a daughter I would really hope you wouldn't spank a girl anyway unless you want them to be into that sort of thing later in life.  Raise your kid the way you want I don't care but to say someone that spanks their child is abuse or is causing them harm is foolish at best.
 
2013-10-09 02:11:14 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?


Oh, I see what you are saying. He dismissed it as ineffective. I dismiss spanking as unnecessary and lazy. I could see how you could consider those to be "the exact same thing" if you weren't very bright.
 
2013-10-09 02:11:20 PM  

jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?

Huh, where did I do that?


The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

 
2013-10-09 02:13:39 PM  

TNel: jst3p: and you will never know the joy of having a daughter who says "Daddy, I love knowing that you will never hurt me on purpose."

Really?  You think I don't get notes from my sons saying how much they love me and I'm the greatest?  You really think getting spanked hurts?  My kids hurt each other daily more than any of the spanks they have ever received from me, heck probably combined.

Plus you have a daughter I would really hope you wouldn't spank a girl anyway unless you want them to be into that sort of thing later in life.  Raise your kid the way you want I don't care but to say someone that spanks their child is abuse or is causing them harm is foolish at best.


Once again, I never said that. I said it was unnecessary and lazy parenting. I will admit, correcting behavior without hitting my kids is a lot of work, but I think it is worth it.
 
2013-10-09 02:14:59 PM  

jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?

Oh, I see what you are saying. He dismissed it as ineffective. I dismiss spanking as unnecessary and lazy. I could see how you could consider those to be "the exact same thing" if you weren't very bright.


Given your lazy method of contradicting what you pretended I said, rather than what I said I am not surprised you parent that way too. Good day,
 
2013-10-09 02:20:26 PM  

jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?

Oh, I see what you are saying. He dismissed it as ineffective. I dismiss spanking as unnecessary and lazy. I could see how you could consider those to be "the exact same thing" if you weren't very bright.


Your implication that spanking is unnecessary is neither based in fact nor in real world experience. In fact, I  personally have evidence to suggest that spanking does, in fact work, and that some folks who  did not get spanked turned out to be morally bankrupt heathens.

You continue to assert that your method is the only viable method when reality not only suggests, but proves you're wrong. Please see my analogy above: how many people who completely contradict your opinion does it take before you quit trying to claim your opinion as reality?

Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others. This is fact. This is empirically evident and provable. Your opinion is neither.
 
2013-10-09 02:27:35 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others. This is fact. This is empirically evident and provable. Your opinion is neither.


Which is exactly what is happening in my house, one of my boys loves to test the waters but knows what not to do and he's been spanked once.  The oldest jesus that boy is just crazy but funny and I'm more worried about him hurting himself in his daredevil acts but he's been spanked a few times when he dangers the other boys.  The youngest you can take his things from him and he shapes up and has never been spanked.

To think that only one way of parenting works for all kids is foolish.
 
2013-10-09 02:32:31 PM  

Pants full of macaroni!!: My mother used to use corporal punishment on me and my brothers when we were kids.  More often than not it would be a whack with a wooden spoon.  My youngest brother managed to put an end to it when he was quite young, maybe 4 or 5, I can't remember.  He was being obnoxious one day and Mama macaroni!! brandished the spoon and said "You wanna feel my spoon?"  Junior macaroni!!, without a word, reached up and began feeling the spoon with his hand.  Mama macaroni!! busted out laughing, and never used the spoon again.

/CSB
//just wanted to use the standard Farkism of referring to family members by incorporating one's handle, which is not easy as I am not married and have no kids


I have an Aunt that slapped me in the face several times when I was a kid.  Hard enough to leave a mark, and often for as little as saying something "rude" as a five year old.  I saw her at my father's funeral and it was all I could do not to smack her right then and there.  As long as I live I will hate her for it.

/how much do I owe for the session?
 
2013-10-09 02:36:05 PM  
Conservatives know there are consequences to their actions and they know what accountibility really means......that is why they spank

Liberals just want to be everyones buddy and not worry about accountibility....that is why they don't
 
2013-10-09 02:38:51 PM  

TNel: Perpetuous Procrastination: Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others. This is fact. This is empirically evident and provable. Your opinion is neither.

Which is exactly what is happening in my house, one of my boys loves to test the waters but knows what not to do and he's been spanked once.  The oldest jesus that boy is just crazy but funny and I'm more worried about him hurting himself in his daredevil acts but he's been spanked a few times when he dangers the other boys.  The youngest you can take his things from him and he shapes up and has never been spanked.

To think that only one way of parenting works for all kids is foolish.


I just find it amusing when the over-zealous anti-spanking crowd tries to crow about how disconnected from reality everyone else is. They're so busy trying to prove their methods are the only viable methods they ignore the fact that plenty of people who got spanked as kids grow up to be successful, well-adjusted, good mannered adults. Meanwhile, there are also plenty of snot-nosed kids who were "grounded" and had their Playstation taken away that turned into snot-nosed adults that think their shiat doesn't stick.

But hey, who needs  actual facts when discussing from a purely emotional standpoint?
 
2013-10-09 02:40:09 PM  

karnal: Conservatives know there are consequences to their actions and they know what accountibility really means......that is why they spank

Liberals just want to be everyones buddy and not worry about accountibility....that is why they don't


They should be an Accountabilibuddy!
 
2013-10-09 02:41:35 PM  

ciberido: But if you think that every kind of problem with a child can be solved by just talking to them


Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?

Also, CSB:
Making dinner once with an ex-gf, I swatted her (lightly, but forcefully enough that she felt it) on the ass with a wooden spoon. We'd only been together maybe two weeks at that point, and the way she turned around, I thought she was gonna kill me. Then I saw her face was flushed and eyes were a-twinkling, and she said: "Do that again, but after dinner."

// follow-up CSB: we were fooling around in a hotel about a month after that, and she told me to go get my belt. So I did, and we were "in the swing of things", so to speak, when housekeeping knocked. Now, normally, they knock, then wait (then knock again?), THEN come in, but she had either not learned that, or had not internalized it. If the image of the two of us en flagrante delicto (my arm raised in mid-swing) couldn't do it, nothing will.
// I may not be great shakes, but the ex-gf was hot - looks a lot like Kaylee from Firefly
// and is 5'11
 
2013-10-09 02:42:33 PM  
And by done correctly, we mean making that high frequency stinging TSSSH!! on bare ass.
 
2013-10-09 02:43:01 PM  
As long as you slowly massage some lotion on the buttocks afterwards....
 
2013-10-09 03:37:45 PM  
So can I beat another adult with a wooden spoon, provided I have a good reason? And then it's not assault because he was annoying the crap out of me and asking him to stop didn't work?

No. It's still assault even though it was part of an attempt to change his behavior. Why do some people think it's okay to commt assault as long as the victim is a child?
 
2013-10-09 03:41:43 PM  

mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!


It's not violence in and of itself that is wrong (unless you want to argue self defense is wrong), it's violence as an outlet for anger that is wrong.  And When you hit a child out of anger, that's abuse.
 
2013-10-09 03:54:56 PM  
I still don't know yet.....what is the safe word? I would like to know....just in case it gets too kinky. Thanks!
 
2013-10-09 04:14:28 PM  

Phins: So can I beat another adult with a wooden spoon, provided I have a good reason? And then it's not assault because he was annoying the crap out of me and asking him to stop didn't work?

No. It's still assault even though it was part of an attempt to change his behavior. Why do some people think it's okay to commt assault as long as the victim is a child?


the same reason people think its ok to steal from, ostracize or mentally abuse a child.
 
2013-10-09 04:16:13 PM  
Use your bare hand, that way if you are being way too rough you will actually feel it yourself.  Spoons, paddles, belts, all allow you to inflict more pain while making it easier for you to ignore the actual pain being created.  If you aren't willing to make your own hand sting to get the point across maybe you shouldn't be spanking them anyway.  Try scolding them with words or putting them in the corner, guilt and shame can be useful tools for kids who haven't already had their empathy beaten out of them.
 
2013-10-09 04:16:54 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?

Oh, I see what you are saying. He dismissed it as ineffective. I dismiss spanking as unnecessary and lazy. I could see how you could consider those to be "the exact same thing" if you weren't very bright.

Your implication that spanking is unnecessary is neither based in fact nor in real world experience. In fact, I  personally have evidence to suggest that spanking does, in fact work, and that some folks who  did not get spanked turned out to be morally bankrupt heathens.

You continue to assert that your method is the only viable method


I never asserted any such thing.

when reality not only suggests, but proves you're wrong. Please see my analogy above: how many people who completely contradict your opinion does it take before you quit trying to claim your opinion as reality?

Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others. This is fact. This is empirically evident and provable. Your opinion is neither.


I never claimed spanking does not work, quit building strawmans. Even if I assume your premise: "Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others."It does not necessarily follow that for those that grounding does not work, spanking does. And vice versa. If you have a source that proves otherwise I would be happy to read it.
 
2013-10-09 04:38:57 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: In fact, I  personally have evidence to suggest that spanking does, in fact work,


Furthermore the entire paper is interesting, but here is a highlight (emphasis mine):

While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.
In commentary published along with the Gershoff study, George W. Holden, PhD, of the University of Texas at Austin, writes that Gershoff's findings "reflect the growing body of evidence indicating that corporal punishment does no good and may even cause harm." Holden submits that the psychological community should not be advocating spanking as a discipline tool for parents.


http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

But what does the American Psychiatric Association know?
 
2013-10-09 04:40:54 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: But hey, who needs  actual facts when discussing from a purely emotional standpoint?


"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.

But I am sure your "facts" are better than his peer reviewed conclusions.
 
2013-10-09 04:54:14 PM  

jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.


While you do the exact same thing in return. Anything else, Captain Hypocrisy?

Oh, I see what you are saying. He dismissed it as ineffective. I dismiss spanking as unnecessary and lazy. I could see how you could consider those to be "the exact same thing" if you weren't very bright.

Your implication that spanking is unnecessary is neither based in fact nor in real world experience. In fact, I  personally have evidence to suggest that spanking does, in fact work, and that some folks who  did not get spanked turned out to be morally bankrupt heathens.

You continue to assert that your method is the only viable method

I never asserted any such thing.

when reality not only suggests, but proves you're wrong. Please see my analogy above: how many people who completely contradict your opinion does it take before you quit trying to claim your opinion as reality?

Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others. This is fact. This is empirically evident and provable. Your opinion is neither.

I never claimed spanking does not work, quit building strawmans. Even if I assume your premise: "Spanking works for some, not for others. Grounding/taking things away works for some, not for others."It does not necessarily follow that for those that grounding does not work, spanking does. And vice versa. If you have a source th ...


Your  entire premise is that your method is better and therefore spanking is wrong. By concluding (from personal experiences and nothing else) that it is "unnecessary," you are asserting that it is not a viable form of discipline. Regardless of that being your intent or not, that is exactly what you are saying - cemented further by the fact that you continue to dismiss others' personal experiences as less factually relevant than your own:

jst3p: TNel: jst3p: It is easier to argue against things I pretended to say, rather than what I actually said, I will give you that.

So you are allowed to make wild accusations but I'm not, are you teaching your kids that also?  You inferenced that I have no kids when you said "But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind "

I am sorry I was unclear, that is not what I meant to imply but I could see it being taken that way. The intent was to say that you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.


jst3p: Yep, when my son was 3 taking his Buzz and Woody, which he LOVED, and hanging them where he could see them but not reach them was quite effective. Now taking their laptop or ipod, whichever they have been using the most at the time, works wonders. But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind TNel.Do what you need to in order to believe that the spankings you received were the only way you would have learned.


I'm done with you - you're so busy thumbing your nose at everyone's own experiences that you're missing the fact that you're one of those "shiat don't stink" people who result from not getting their ass spanked as a kid.
 
2013-10-09 04:59:51 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: Your  entire premise is that your method is better and therefore spanking is wrong.


I never said it didn't work. You keep saying I said it didn't work, and I never said that. I do believe that other methods are superior, someone in this thread claimed one of those methods didn't work. That is what prompted the portions of my posts that you emphasised.
 
2013-10-09 05:03:56 PM  

jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: In fact, I  personally have evidence to suggest that spanking does, in fact work,

Furthermore the entire paper is interesting, but here is a highlight (emphasis mine):

While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.
In commentary published along with the Gershoff study, George W. Holden, PhD, of the University of Texas at Austin, writes that Gershoff's findings "reflect the growing body of evidence indicating that corporal punishment does no good and may even cause harm." Holden submits that the psychological community should not be advocating spanking as a discipline tool for parents.


http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

But what does the American Psychiatric Association know?


Meanwhile, we'll ignore the self-critique response to that article noting that the research method(s) used were imperfect and that the results, in and of themselves, are not conclusive or absolute. Additionally, the case was stated that it merely demonstrates that too much use of corporal punishment can increase risk of negative responses, not that it necessarily will and/or does. The  exact same argument can be made for  not enough discipline being handed down to children, regardless of type.

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284602.pdf 

But hey, cool story. Disingenuous presentation of a single APA study is really helping your credibility along.
 
2013-10-09 05:04:24 PM  
you have dismissed methods that many of us have found to work, that is all.

But don't let our actual experience as parents change your mind


To be more clear, these were in response to his assertion that taking things away was not an effective discipline technique.

It's still just a waiting game, if they have other stuff taking that item teaches them nothing.

He claimed it didn't work. I never made such a claim about spanking. "change your mind" quote was in reference to this form of discipline working, not about spanking. I don't think you are following the discussion very well.
 
2013-10-09 05:09:55 PM  

Perpetuous Procrastination: But hey, cool story. Disingenuous presentation of a single APA study is really helping your credibility along.


"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.


Let's see your source that endorses corporal punishment. You have "facts" right?
 
2013-10-09 06:07:27 PM  

ciberido: mediablitz: Mentat: mediablitz: Nothing tells a child violence is wrong like using violence. That should teach her to stay out of violent gangs!

It sure as hell taught me that.

It tuaght me to be violent. It took until I was in my 30's to overcome the "old school" shiat that being beaten as a child instilled.

I'm glad I didn't pass that retarded shiat on to my kids. My dad died a couple weeks ago, and his biggest regret was using violence to "discipline" his kids.

If you can't out think a kid, you are the loser.

There are other ways to punish a child than with physical pain.  But if you think that every kind of problem with a child can be solved by just talking to them, then you, sir are the loser.  But more importantly, in the long run, your kids are.



And on that note, we are all losers because of mediablitz and his kids..
 
2013-10-09 06:33:20 PM  

jst3p: Perpetuous Procrastination: But hey, cool story. Disingenuous presentation of a single APA study is really helping your credibility along.

"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.


Let's see your source that endorses corporal punishment. You have "facts" right?


Actually...

Start with Ordinary Physical Punishment: Is It Harmful?.  First problem: Gershoff's meta-analysis included definitions of "physical punishment" that were so broad as to include striking a child with a closed fist or a blunt object, beatings that leave permanent scars, and beatings that result in trips to the hospital.  Well if that's how you define punishment, YEAH you'll find undesirable correlations.  That's what we call abuse, and it's a lot different from a swat on the rump or slapped wrist.  When Baumrind and colleagues re-analyzed Gershoff's own data with the clearly-abusive behaviors that I listed removed from the data set, all of her undesirable correlations evaporated.  Second problem: Gershoff's data is correlational, and you know what they say about correlational research.  Reverse causality is a possibility; maybe kids who are more aggressive and emotionally-unbalanced get in more trouble, rather than the punishment making them more aggressive or emotionally unbalanced.

Other studies have shown that there are a ton of other variables that influence the relationship between physical punishment and psychological outcomes.  Age is one (TFA says the girl is 12.  That part's not good.).  The quality of the relationship is another (another study found undesirable correlations only in the context of distant and rejecting parent-child relationships.  Yet another is the message conveyed ("You did a bad thing" means something very different from "Daddy doesn't love you anymore.").  Subcultural norms also make a difference (is physical punishment considered normative in the culture or subculture within which the family exists?).  One study found undesirable correlations, except among Black participants.  Another found undesirable correlations, except among Asian participants.  Another found undesirable correlations, except among conservative Protestants.

So any blanket statement about physical punishment and psychological outcomes is not warranted.  It is far more complicated than that.

Gotta run, class to teach (Developmental Psychology, amusingly enough).  I'll see if I can swing back through the thread later with more precise info.
 
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