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(Politico)   Some people deny climate change, some people deny the Earth is round or was crafted billions of years ago by cosmic forces we don't fully understand yet. Then there are these Debt Ceiling Denying Asshats   (politico.com ) divider line 180
    More: Dumbass, climate change, Tony Fratto, prior restraint, Richard Burr, money market funds  
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2169 clicks; posted to Politics » on 09 Oct 2013 at 10:54 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-09 08:26:13 AM  
On the upside, this may provide a compelling example of group selection at the cultural level, where groups unable to keep the level of delusional denialists in check, may tend to have their civilization collapse.

www.surfaceforums.net
 
2013-10-09 08:55:27 AM  
They left out Yoho's brilliant insight that defaulting would "stabilize world markets."

I'd call them terrorists for putting our national security at risk in this way.  But frankly, they're all too stupid to be terrorists.
 
2013-10-09 10:04:23 AM  
Someone please correct my probably incorrect understand of the situation.

- Obama tells Bernanke to sell a few more treasury bonds to pay the bills.
- Debt ceiling is busted.
- GOP wharrgarrblls and tries to have Obama hung for treason.
- SCOTUS declared debt ceiling law unconstitutional.
- Life goes on.

Why does - apart for the need of getting tv ratings - anyone freak about this debt ceiling thing?
 
2013-10-09 10:15:07 AM  

Flab: Why does - apart for the need of getting tv ratings - anyone freak about this debt ceiling thing?


Because it allows us to incur more debt.  Apparently someone forgot to tell the GOP they don't have to max out the cards, though.
 
2013-10-09 10:33:32 AM  

Diogenes: Flab: Why does - apart for the need of getting tv ratings - anyone freak about this debt ceiling thing?

Because it allows us to incur more debt.  Apparently someone forgot to tell the GOP they don't have to max out the cards, though.


Oh, I agree that it would be nice to not have to pay the heating bill from the HELOC, but these are things you should be discussing when trying to work out a budget.
 
2013-10-09 10:37:48 AM  

Flab: Diogenes: Flab: Why does - apart for the need of getting tv ratings - anyone freak about this debt ceiling thing?

Because it allows us to incur more debt.  Apparently someone forgot to tell the GOP they don't have to max out the cards, though.

Oh, I agree that it would be nice to not have to pay the heating bill from the HELOC, but these are things you should be discussing when trying to work out a budget.


That's precisely the point.  Congress approves spending.  These nitwits are trying to dine and dash.
 
2013-10-09 10:40:22 AM  

Flab: Oh, I agree that it would be nice to not have to pay the heating bill from the HELOC, but these are things you should be discussing when trying to work out a budget.


no, this isn't something that should be allowed to be up for discussion, ever. The debt ceiling is a political football that should never have been, and the fact that we're seriously contemplating life after default means that there's something horribly, horribly wrong with our politicians and we need to fix that shiat right now.

Budgets will come either right before or right after, but the Debt Ceiling should never be on the table for debate, ever. and anyone who thinks it should, for any reason what so ever, should be flogged in the public square
 
2013-10-09 10:46:40 AM  

Diogenes: That's precisely the point. Congress approves spending. These nitwits are trying to dine and dash.


Yeah, and maybe if they'd done ANYTHING in the past 3-6 months besides "Defund Obamacare" over and over, they could have, just maybe come up with something, anything that would have been workable short of defaulting.

And now the chant has begun: "Default won't be bad, default won't be bad..."  I'm actually scared of these people now.
 
2013-10-09 10:56:33 AM  

factoryconnection: And now the chant has begun: "Default won't be bad, default won't be bad..." I'm actually scared of these people now.


you should be. They've spent the last 30 years of testing the mantra "repeat it enough times and they'll believe you" that they can actually try it out on a truly devastating idea.
 
2013-10-09 10:58:39 AM  

Diogenes: They left out Yoho's brilliant insight that defaulting would "stabilize world markets."

I'd call them terrorists for putting our national security at risk in this way.  But frankly, they're all too stupid to be terrorists.


A vertical plunge is a kind of stability.
 
2013-10-09 10:59:57 AM  

Diogenes: They left out Yoho's brilliant insight that defaulting would "stabilize world markets."

I'd call them terrorists for putting our national security at risk in this way.  But frankly, they're all too stupid to be terrorists.


Well, it WOULD stabilize the world markets. It's kind of hard to get more stable than "Leveled to the ground" or "burned down to the bedrock". It's ROCK SOLID stability!
 
2013-10-09 11:01:05 AM  
Oh, good, this shiat again.

I wonder what we'll all end up switching to as the world's reserve currency.  The Euro's sorta the German reserve currency, and it's been about as stable as the dollar, but it's tied into multinational treaties so there's some potential for instability there.

Maybe hybrid money-market style reserves will become the norm once we fark our credit rating and there aren't any really good choices yet?

//China's the next biggest economy with a reasonably safe currency, but they've stayed reasonably safe by fixing the value to the USD, so if we go tits up then that's out too.
 
2013-10-09 11:02:22 AM  

factoryconnection: And now the chant has begun: "Default won't be bad, default won't be bad..."  I'm actually scared of these people now


They're like a suicide cult except they want to make the whole country drink their kool-aid.  We absolutely cannot allow them to do this.

Mint the coin, Obama.  Or just ignore the law as unconstitutional and borrow more money anyway.  This brinksmanship needs to end NOW.  We can't keep lurching from existential threat to existential threat every couple of months.
 
2013-10-09 11:04:22 AM  
This is a stunt and we're not going to default no matter what happens.  Making this out to be the apocalypse is as dumb as the Republicans doing this in the first place.
 
2013-10-09 11:04:35 AM  
The article is great, but pointing out once again that Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006 confuses the message.
 
2013-10-09 11:05:07 AM  

somedude210: you should be. They've spent the last 30 years of testing the mantra "repeat it enough times and they'll believe you" that they can actually try it out on a truly devastating idea.


You're certainly not easing my fears, though perhaps that's just reality setting in.
 
2013-10-09 11:05:47 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Or just ignore the law as unconstitutional and borrow more money anyway.


Problem with this is that there will certainly be legal challenges to such a move, and even if it were the move ultimately upheld, the uncertainty during the litigation would be almost as bad as a default.
 
2013-10-09 11:06:26 AM  
At first I think there should be a full-blown attack on these guys in the next election cycle using their own words against them but then I remember they were elected by people who are in most cases even less intelligent and accept the fact that this is our political system and we are getting what we asked for "good and hard" thanks HL Menken
 
2013-10-09 11:06:27 AM  

Cletus C.: The article is great, but pointing out once again that Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006 confuses the message.


Did he filibuster it?
 
2013-10-09 11:07:57 AM  

GoldSpider: Problem with this is that there will certainly be legal challenges to such a move, and even if it were the move ultimately upheld, the uncertainty during the litigation would be almost as bad as a default.


Not if Obama just presents it as a fait accompli.  Once the treasury has borrowed the money, it'll take a bunch of time in the courts to get that reversed---until then, problem avoided.

And if that won't work, mint the farking coin, round up congress and send 'em to Gitmo, anything.  I don't care, anything is better than default at this point.
 
2013-10-09 11:08:45 AM  
The GOP was able to minimize the effects of the shutdown on the average person, going so far as to use their propaganda machine to refer to it as a "slimdown" while at the same time, pointing out how national parks were closed due to Fartbongo Hussein.

Let's see how they spin an absolute collapse of the dollar.  I doubt all but the derpiest will be able to spin it as "both sides are bad", especially if Obama makes this a constitutional test of the debt ceiling.  Yeah, impeaching a President for keeping the economy from collapsing.  That oughta win those independents right over.
 
2013-10-09 11:10:02 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: round up congress and send 'em to Gitmo


Let's do this first, regardless of any subsequent endeavors.
 
2013-10-09 11:10:06 AM  
I think we're going to look back and find that Lincoln allowing the South back into the Union proved to be the fatal flaw in the American Experiment in the long game.   It  allowed them to inflict destruction against America  through internal sabotage  to a degree they never have been able to accomplish from the outside.
 
2013-10-09 11:10:19 AM  
We're all boehned.
 
2013-10-09 11:11:16 AM  

born_yesterday: The GOP was able to minimize the effects of the shutdown on the average person, going so far as to use their propaganda machine to refer to it as a "slimdown" while at the same time, pointing out how national parks were closed due to Fartbongo Hussein.

Let's see how they spin an absolute collapse of the dollar.  I doubt all but the derpiest will be able to spin it as "both sides are bad", especially if Obama makes this a constitutional test of the debt ceiling.  Yeah, impeaching a President for keeping the economy from collapsing.  That oughta win those independents right over.


Sounds like you read this.
 
2013-10-09 11:11:31 AM  

doyner: Cletus C.: The article is great, but pointing out once again that Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006 confuses the message.

Did he filibuster it?


Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?
 
2013-10-09 11:12:03 AM  
The ransom letter signers, broken down by state and district:

AL: 5
AR: 1, 2
AZ: 4, 5, 6, 8
CA: 1, 4, 8
CO: 5

FLA: 3, 6, 12, 8
GA: 1, 9, 10, 11
IA: 4
ID: 1
IL: 13, 14, 18

IN: 4, 2, 3, 6
KS: 1, 4
KY: 4, 6
LA: 1, 4, 6
OH: 1, 2, 4

OK: 1
MS: 4
MN: 6
MI: 1, 2, 3, 7, 8
MT: 1

MO: 6, 8
NC: 11, 5, 6, 3, 13
NM: 2
PA: 12, 14, 10, 4
SC: 2, 3, 5

TN: 1, 2, 3, 6
TX: 27, 19, 11, 4, 1, 36, 14, 6, 17, 14,
UT: 1
WI: 5
WY: 1

 Ta-da.
 
2013-10-09 11:12:52 AM  

InmanRoshi: I think we're going to look back and find that Lincoln allowing the South back into the Union proved to be the fatal flaw in the American Experiment in the long game.   It  allowed them to inflict destruction against America  through internal sabotage  to a degree they never have been able to accomplish from the outside.


This comment is the fark politics tab distilled.
 
2013-10-09 11:13:06 AM  

born_yesterday: HMS_Blinkin: round up congress and send 'em to Gitmo

Let's do this first, regardless of any subsequent endeavors.


Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be able to feel disturbed by that.  I hate to be that guy, but the ends really would justify the means.  Just keep 'em locked up long enough to raise the debt ceiling and then repeal the debt ceiling law, giving the treasury the authority to borrow whenever it needs to in order to meet congressional spending obligations.
 
2013-10-09 11:13:22 AM  
So... Basically what you're saying is back when Obama was running his mouth in 2006 that he was a complete and utter moron who didn't have the first clue what he was talking about? Or was he set on causing all the disaster that is sure to follow if we don't raise the debt ceiling?
 
2013-10-09 11:13:27 AM  
Old scared white ignorant people don't want you to have health insurance.
To stop that from happening, they will burn down this country.
 
2013-10-09 11:13:38 AM  

Cletus C.: doyner: Cletus C.: The article is great, but pointing out once again that Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006 confuses the message.

Did he filibuster it?

Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?


Look, I agree with the premise that it was hypocritical. The distinction I'm making is that he didn't do everything ini his power to cause the US to default.
 
2013-10-09 11:14:35 AM  

randomjsa: So... Basically what you're saying is back when Obama was running his mouth in 2006 that he was a complete and utter moron who didn't have the first clue what he was talking about? Or was he set on causing all the disaster that is sure to follow if we don't raise the debt ceiling?


In 2006, the BUSH TAX CUTS FOR RICH PEOPLE hadn't become permanent.
The outlook foe deficit reduction was rosier then.
 
2013-10-09 11:14:54 AM  

Cletus C.: Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?


Everybody drink if the reason is "nuance" and drink again if it's served with a side order of "you're a racist."
 
2013-10-09 11:15:19 AM  

Cletus C.: Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?


Ever hear of a protest vote?  Obama was able to cast that vote as a statement, safe in the knowledge the debt limit would get raised anyway-----because Pelosi, unlike Boner, can actually count votes.  If there had been the actual clear & present danger of a federal default, you bet Obama would have voted in favor of raising the debt ceiling.

That's the difference between 2006 and 2013.  Get it?
 
2013-10-09 11:15:36 AM  
somedude210:

. . . but the Debt Ceiling should never be on the table for debate, ever. and anyone who thinks it should, for any reason what so ever, should be flogged in the public square

www.badhaven.com
 
2013-10-09 11:15:43 AM  
I try to imagine how all of this is going to play out, and what the consequences will be, and what things will be like in 3 or 5 years...

...and I have no idea.

Except I'm pretty sure it won't be pretty.
 
2013-10-09 11:15:47 AM  
Burn down this country, they will.

No health insurance for YOU.
 
2013-10-09 11:15:51 AM  
So these are 14thers?

Checks the article.

Ahhh the other type of debt ceiling deniers.
 
2013-10-09 11:15:58 AM  

paygun: Cletus C.: Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?

Everybody drink if the reason is "nuance" and drink again if it's served with a side order of "you're a racist."


That post is nuanced racism.
 
2013-10-09 11:16:15 AM  
These are people who swore fealty to a 12-year-old's idea of how the (for now) most powerful nation on earth should be run. In a better world they'd be denied a spot on the Church Picnic's Potato Salad Subcommittee.

Or, the idea I had at age 12: "Wait until my parents are asleep then sneak downstairs and watch boobies on Cinemax."
 
2013-10-09 11:16:24 AM  

doyner: born_yesterday: The GOP was able to minimize the effects of the shutdown on the average person, going so far as to use their propaganda machine to refer to it as a "slimdown" while at the same time, pointing out how national parks were closed due to Fartbongo Hussein.

Let's see how they spin an absolute collapse of the dollar.  I doubt all but the derpiest will be able to spin it as "both sides are bad", especially if Obama makes this a constitutional test of the debt ceiling.  Yeah, impeaching a President for keeping the economy from collapsing.  That oughta win those independents right over.

Sounds like you read this.


I had not, but I am now.  Thanks!
 
2013-10-09 11:16:36 AM  

Flab: SCOTUS declared debt ceiling law unconstitutional.


I'm not sure how you get here. First, you need a "case or controversy" as described in Article III and as construed by subsequent Supreme Court opinions - the Court will not offer an advisory opinion - and the matter needs to be ripe but not yet moot. Second, you need a plaintiff with standing, and remember that standing doctrine has narrowed considerably in the last generation or so. And finally you need to get the case through the lower courts first unless there is a basis for SCOTUS to take original jurisdiction (which I don't see, but I'm open to suggestions) - which means it could be years before the case gets to the Court.

And if you get past all of that, there's Scalia and Roberts and Thomas and Alito. Good luck.
 
2013-10-09 11:16:59 AM  

Jim_Callahan: I wonder what we'll all end up switching to as the world's reserve currency.  The Euro's sorta the German reserve currency, and it's been about as stable as the dollar, but it's tied into multinational treaties so there's some potential for instability there.

Maybe hybrid money-market style reserves will become the norm once we fark our credit rating and there aren't any really good choices yet?

//China's the next biggest economy with a reasonably safe currency, but they've stayed reasonably safe by fixing the value to the USD, so if we go tits up then that's out too.


I came in here to bring up exactly this point.  The truly chilling effect default would have isn't the direct effect of pushing treasuries to junk bond status. Sure, that's  bad, but it isn't even close to the worst potential consequence, which is threatening our global reserve currency status.

As to what happens next if the US defaults, my bet is Russia and China bilaterally introduces a global currency, pegs the dollar to it at an artificially-deflated rate to encourage purchase, freezes the US out financially by shortselling treasuries, and strong-arms the EU into accepting it at a strong exchange rate to the Euro. That throws the US into a deflationary spiral with their own currencies as a global safety net, and forces the US out of its overseas interests for financial reasons.
 
2013-10-09 11:17:21 AM  
www.addictinginfo.org

Gomer Ghomert... if he says the sky is blue, you should go right outside and check, as he
isn't capable of telling a truth.
 
2013-10-09 11:18:10 AM  

GoldSpider: HMS_Blinkin: Or just ignore the law as unconstitutional and borrow more money anyway.

Problem with this is that there will certainly be legal challenges to such a move, and even if it were the move ultimately upheld, the uncertainty during the litigation would be almost as bad as a default.


Precisely this.

If I buy a 10 year  T-Bill after October 17th when Obama envokes the 14th Amedment and the ensuing legal shiatstorm hits the fan , what sort of discount do I get from the market and the United States Government buying legally challenged 10 year T-Bills compared to the people who bought non-legally challenged T-Bills before Ocotber 17th?  Surely you don't expect me, or anyone else,  to buy it at the same exact measly 2.66% it's currently going for.   You're going to have to raise that rate significantly to account for the extra risk I'm taking on.
 
2013-10-09 11:18:38 AM  
Hey help me out if anybody knows the answer to this, why do we have a vote for raising the debt ceiling?  Isn't there no reason why it shouldn't be raised?
 
2013-10-09 11:19:02 AM  

factoryconnection: Diogenes: That's precisely the point. Congress approves spending. These nitwits are trying to dine and dash.

Yeah, and maybe if they'd done ANYTHING in the past 3-6 months besides "Defund Obamacare" over and over, they could have, just maybe come up with something, anything that would have been workable short of defaulting.

And now the chant has begun: "Default won't be bad, default won't be bad..."  I'm actually scared of these people now.


It's been a lot longer than 6 months. Congress hasn't passed a budget in over a decade.
 
2013-10-09 11:19:37 AM  
Anything the government has to pay is a debt, you Republican, tongue-dragging yokels.

If you pay off the interest on your mortgage every month, stiffing the milk man is still defaulting on your debt.
 
2013-10-09 11:20:09 AM  

doyner: Cletus C.: doyner: Cletus C.: The article is great, but pointing out once again that Obama voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006 confuses the message.

Did he filibuster it?

Huh? So, it's one of those yes he said that but here's what he really obviously meant Obama moments?

Look, I agree with the premise that it was hypocritical. The distinction I'm making is that he didn't do everything ini his power to cause the US to default.


Sure, I agree. And though this government shutdown/debt ceiling crisis is solely the creation of a fringe element of the Republican party and the party's spineless moderates, I am right now hoping the president is doing everything in his power to ensure the U.S. does not default.

But it has been his pattern to ratchet up the rhetoric, which seems to do little more than make the nutbags dig their hole even deeper. Yesterday's press conference being an example.
 
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