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(Politico)   "Democratic cracks open in debt limit fight" They can't seem to decide on "Show the GOP mercy" or "Smother them will pillows filled with hundred dollar bills"   (politico.com) divider line 106
    More: Interesting, United States one hundred-dollar bill, GOP, smothers, debt limit fight, clemency, Majority Whip, debt limit, preconditions  
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1744 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Oct 2013 at 9:40 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-08 08:03:40 AM  
The democrats know they can't back down on this fight. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
 
2013-10-08 08:34:53 AM  

Weaver95: The democrats know they can't back down on this fight. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain.


So you're saying they WILL back down.
 
2013-10-08 08:36:46 AM  
Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.
 
2013-10-08 08:40:20 AM  
"You made your bed, Republicans.  Now lie in it.  Please.  Pretty please.  We'll give you turndown service and a lovely chocolate on your pillow."
 
2013-10-08 08:46:27 AM  
Fine, fine!   You've two options

1. We'll scrap the ACA.  Medicare for everyone.

or

2 We'll delay it, but only 6 months, and you give us universal background checks.

There.  Negotiated.

What do you mean, "no deal".  You complained that we weren't negotiating and now we are.
 
2013-10-08 08:46:32 AM  

unlikely: Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.


While this is undoubtedly true, I'm afraid the Republicans in the House are too stupid to realize the harm they will cause by standing their ground. And there is no political pressure to force them to give in, because their constituents are overwhelmingly behind their idiotic antics. And once things are farked, I'm not sure how we unfark them.
 
2013-10-08 08:55:16 AM  
I fully expect that the Democrats will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

(psst- hey, morans, why aren't you pressing the point that the Republican attempts to legislate via hostage taking is not how the Constitution decrees Congress is supposed to work?)
 
2013-10-08 09:04:56 AM  
I vote smothering.
 
2013-10-08 09:20:22 AM  
"Cracks" being the position that we don't care how many times the House has to do its job, so long as it gets it frigging job done.

How about it, House of Representatives?  Are you going to do your god damned jobs today, you worthless sacks of horse manure?
 
2013-10-08 09:21:51 AM  
if the dems back down on this, the tea party will defund medicare and social security. what's to stop them?
 
2013-10-08 09:23:57 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: How about it, House of Representatives? Are you going to do your god damned jobs today, you worthless sacks of horse manure?


I think you answered your own question.

/happy to be back at work :D
 
2013-10-08 09:34:24 AM  

Therion: I fully expect that the Democrats will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

(psst- hey, morans, why aren't you pressing the point that the Republican attempts to legislate via hostage taking is not how the Constitution decrees Congress is supposed to work?)


That's pretty much up to the media now.  But pointing that out to America fails to present both sides in a reasonable light.
 
2013-10-08 09:44:17 AM  
CNN's leading political report is stating that they have at least 17 GOP votes for a clean vote in the House, if not more.

Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years, the GOP is dealing with an internal civil war, the Democrats are united as they rarely have been in the last 40 years.  The whole 'snatch defeat from victory' thing is a bit old and outdated.
 
2013-10-08 09:45:19 AM  
The Democrats need strong backing from progressives, liberals and moderates.

Which they won't get, because the American left is a professional whining class that is not happy unless it is the losing underdog that can be smug about being the losing underdog.

Putting aside our differences, standing as a united front, and achieving a common aim against a common foe is sadly beyond us.
 
2013-10-08 09:46:26 AM  

SilentStrider: I vote smothering.


Really, from a practical standpoint it doesn't make much of a difference what the pillow is stuffed with.  However, it would be rather poetic to stuff it with treasury cabbage - a sort of modern-day execution of Crassus by the Persians.

/let's see if Louie Gohmert has the blood of the dragon in him!
 
2013-10-08 09:46:51 AM  

Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,


2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...
 
2013-10-08 09:47:00 AM  

unlikely: Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.


"What is our present condition? We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government shall be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten, before we take the offices. In this they are either attempting to play upon us, or they are in dead earnest. Either way, if we surrender, it is the end of us, and of the Government. They will repeat the experiment upon us ad libitum"

- Abraham Lincoln, 1861.
 
2013-10-08 09:48:04 AM  

FlashHarry: if the dems back down on this, the tea party will defund medicare and social security. what's to stop them?


More importantly, if the Dems back down, the debt ceiling increase might become an actual fight.
 
2013-10-08 09:49:39 AM  

qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...


Depends on how you view things.  The Tea Derpers cost the GOP the Senate and a number of important seats and they didn't win nearly as many House seats as they were expecting.  Sure, they declared victory, but if you step back and look at what could have happened, you'll see that they failed horribly at achieving what they needed to achieve.

I mean, look at the current situation.  They gained just enough TP seats to be a pain in the ass, but not control the legislative process.  To me, that means 2010 was a failure for the GOP in the long term.
 
2013-10-08 09:49:53 AM  

qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...


You're delusional. Unskewed, even. 2012 was a draw?
 
2013-10-08 09:50:28 AM  

Obama's Reptiloid Master: The Democrats need strong backing from progressives, liberals and moderates.

Which they won't get, because the American left is a professional whining class that is not happy unless it is the losing underdog that can be smug about being the losing underdog.

Putting aside our differences, standing as a united front, and achieving a common aim against a common foe is sadly beyond us.


Yeah, great, let's rally support from American leftists for the more moderate right-wing party.
 
2013-10-08 09:51:08 AM  
Kill 'em. Kill 'em all.

My vote is to purge the unclean and wipe out the entire Tea Party.

As long as I get to be an Ultramarine.

/or a flamebat, if that's more your universe.
 
2013-10-08 09:51:51 AM  
NO MERCY!!
The poor and the middle-class has little to lose!
 
2013-10-08 09:52:44 AM  
I am not okay with the left backing down here.  I am not okay with them "compromising" (aka giving in) in any way.  The right has successfully moved the left to the center right and if they move any further, I'll find myself voting for what the old Republicans used to be.
 
2013-10-08 09:53:13 AM  
have*
 
2013-10-08 09:54:40 AM  

Obama's Reptiloid Master: The Democrats need strong backing from progressives, liberals and moderates.

Which they won't get, because the American left is a professional whining class that is not happy unless it is the losing underdog that can be smug about being the losing underdog.

Putting aside our differences, standing as a united front, and achieving a common aim against a common foe is sadly beyond us.


Oh boo farking hoo you.
 
2013-10-08 09:55:09 AM  

maweimer9: I am not okay with the left backing down here.  I am not okay with them "compromising" (aka giving in) in any way.  The right has successfully moved the left to the center right and if they move any further, I'll find myself voting for what the old Republicans used to be.


They're already compromised. A lot. The clean CR at sequestration levels is well below Obama's proposed budget or the Senate budget. It's pretty much exactly in line with the GOPs new budget, and well below Ryan's original proposed budget. Establishing sequestration funding levels as the new Federal budget baseline is a huge GOP win.

cdn.theatlantic.com
 
2013-10-08 09:55:41 AM  

maweimer9: I am not okay with the left backing down here.


There is no "left" in this fight. It's Republican lunatics against everyone else, who are mostly right-leaning moderates. The left does not get represented in national politics.
 
2013-10-08 09:56:32 AM  

Fuggin Bizzy: qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...

You're delusional. Unskewed, even. 2012 was a draw?


Sure. Everyone held the line; the balance of power was not altered in any way. How was it not a draw?
 
2013-10-08 09:57:04 AM  

qorkfiend: Fuggin Bizzy: qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...

You're delusional. Unskewed, even. 2012 was a draw?

Sure. Everyone held the line; the balance of power was not altered in any way. How was it not a draw?


You've never heard of "opportunity cost", have you?
 
2013-10-08 09:58:18 AM  
I pretty much refuse to believe that a filibuster could prevent us from raising the debt ceiling.
There must be enough Republicans in the Senate who would help vote for cloture.
 
2013-10-08 09:58:30 AM  

Pharque-it: NO MERCY!!
The poor and the middle-class has little to lose!


And this is largely because of the policies of the GOP, BUT STILL!
 
2013-10-08 09:59:05 AM  

I_Am_Weasel: Fine, fine!   You've two options

1. We'll scrap the ACA.  Medicare for everyone.

or

2 We'll delay it, but only 6 months, and you give us universal background checks.

There.  Negotiated.

What do you mean, "no deal".  You complained that we weren't negotiating and now we are.


You realize that gun control measures are probably the ONLY thing that could cost the Democrats political capital in this fight, right?  Anything else and they have overwhelming support right now from moderates across the board.  If they start to look like they are trying for an opportunistic regulation or power grab unrelated to the economy, healthcare, or jobs that support will start to evaporate.
 
2013-10-08 09:59:56 AM  

skinnycatullus: unlikely: Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.

While this is undoubtedly true, I'm afraid the Republicans in the House are too stupid to realize the harm they will cause by standing their ground. And there is no political pressure to force them to give in, because their constituents are overwhelmingly behind their idiotic antics. And once things are farked, I'm not sure how we unfark them.


What are you talking about, recent polls have shown there is 54% support to NOT increasing the debt ceiling.

//Someone get me off this planet.
 
2013-10-08 10:01:03 AM  

AngryDragon: You realize that gun control measures are probably the ONLY thing that could cost the Democrats political capital in this fight, right?  Anything else and they have overwhelming support right now from moderates across the board.  If they start to look like they are trying for an opportunistic regulation or power grab unrelated to the economy, healthcare, or jobs that support will start to evaporate.


Yeah, in this context, Option 2 would be stupid. It should be "...and you give us higher taxes on millionaires and billionaires."

Guaranteed universal support.
 
2013-10-08 10:01:07 AM  
I'm confused - what's the crack? A short term bill is not a crack by the dems - their demand has always been a clean bill, not a long one.
 
2013-10-08 10:02:00 AM  

MindStalker: skinnycatullus: unlikely: Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.

While this is undoubtedly true, I'm afraid the Republicans in the House are too stupid to realize the harm they will cause by standing their ground. And there is no political pressure to force them to give in, because their constituents are overwhelmingly behind their idiotic antics. And once things are farked, I'm not sure how we unfark them.

What are you talking about, recent polls have shown there is 54% support to NOT increasing the debt ceiling.

//Someone get me off this planet.


That was a Fox News poll.

That's all that needs to be said, honestly.
 
2013-10-08 10:02:37 AM  
Is there a way we could get a vote of no confidence in the Speaker? Does Congress even have that sort of thing?
 
2013-10-08 10:03:09 AM  

maweimer9: I am not okay with the left backing down here.  I am not okay with them "compromising" (aka giving in) in any way.  The right has successfully moved the left to the center right and if they move any further, I'll find myself voting for what the old Republicans used to be.


That, and the fact that if the GOP confirm that they can successfully hold the country hostage every time the budget or debt ceiling comes around we can look forward to a lot more of this douchebaggery. Probably every time the budget or debt ceiling comes around.
 
2013-10-08 10:03:13 AM  

unlikely: Iif the GOP gets their way on this issue using their current tactic, nothing will be safe. They will try it again and again on any issue they don't like from the last 100 years. From gay marriage to women's right to choose or even to vote, you'll be able to trace the beginning of the next dark ages to the moment the Dems buckle.


yeah the reason they're back now with their demands is that it worked last time.
 
2013-10-08 10:03:20 AM  
paranoia/tinfoil possibly

recall all the talk in the republican years of the Unitary powers of the president
would it be possible for the office of the president to assume the powers that congress is unable to use?

/just talking out my butt here
 
2013-10-08 10:03:24 AM  

un4gvn666: AngryDragon: You realize that gun control measures are probably the ONLY thing that could cost the Democrats political capital in this fight, right?  Anything else and they have overwhelming support right now from moderates across the board.  If they start to look like they are trying for an opportunistic regulation or power grab unrelated to the economy, healthcare, or jobs that support will start to evaporate.

Yeah, in this context, Option 2 would be stupid. It should be "...and you give us higher taxes on millionaires and billionaires."

Guaranteed universal support.


Guaranteed.  Since Congress ARE the millionaires however, it's unlikely that will hit the table.
 
2013-10-08 10:03:42 AM  

Infernalist: qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...

Depends on how you view things.  The Tea Derpers cost the GOP the Senate and a number of important seats and they didn't win nearly as many House seats as they were expecting.  Sure, they declared victory, but if you step back and look at what could have happened, you'll see that they failed horribly at achieving what they needed to achieve.

I mean, look at the current situation.  They gained just enough TP seats to be a pain in the ass, but not control the legislative process.  To me, that means 2010 was a failure for the GOP in the long term.


Because 2010 was less disastrous than it could have been doesn't mean it wasn't a disaster. The Teatards seem to exert quite a bit of control over the legislative process, at least to the extent that they can gum up the works; we wouldn't be in the current situation if they didn't.

2010 might - might - be costly to the GOP in the long run, though I have my doubts. In the short term, however, it was a fairly decisive victory, even if it wasn't total victory.
 
2013-10-08 10:04:03 AM  
From CNN:

According to the poll, 56% of Americans said it would be a bad thing if the debt ceiling was not raised, with 38% saying it would be a good thing for the country.

By a 51% to 43% margin, the public said it is more important to raise the debt ceiling than to delay Obamacare.

A larger majority, 64% to 27%, in a Quinnipiac University survey released Tuesday said they opposed blocking an increase in the debt ceiling as a way to dismantle the health care law.

If the debt ceiling is not raised, just over half of those questioned in the CNN poll, 53%, said congressional Republicans would be more responsible rather than Obama, with 31% pointing more fingers at the president.
 
2013-10-08 10:04:19 AM  

error 303: maweimer9: I am not okay with the left backing down here.  I am not okay with them "compromising" (aka giving in) in any way.  The right has successfully moved the left to the center right and if they move any further, I'll find myself voting for what the old Republicans used to be.

They're already compromised. A lot. The clean CR at sequestration levels is well below Obama's proposed budget or the Senate budget. It's pretty much exactly in line with the GOPs new budget, and well below Ryan's original proposed budget. Establishing sequestration funding levels as the new Federal budget baseline is a huge GOP win.

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 310x535]


Which is EXACTLY why they can't give in any further.  They've already compromised.  Why is it that they haven't communicated this strongly enough?  I mean this should be on the first soundbyte of every news program.  The Dems should be front and center screaming this at the top of their lungs.
 
2013-10-08 10:05:30 AM  

un4gvn666: qorkfiend: Fuggin Bizzy: qorkfiend: Infernalist: Also, the Democrats have kicked the living shiat out of the GOP for the last 5 years,

2010 was fairly disastrous for the Democrats, and I'd call 2012 a draw...

You're delusional. Unskewed, even. 2012 was a draw?

Sure. Everyone held the line; the balance of power was not altered in any way. How was it not a draw?

You've never heard of "opportunity cost", have you?


How about, in lieu of being snarky, you explain how you think that applies?
 
2013-10-08 10:05:50 AM  
The article isn't giving me any doubts. They had not decided how much money they were going to ask for, there is a brief question when their pages don't match up exactly, and they discuss it themselves. I'm really not seeing a problem here. They know their goal, overall, is to increase the debt ceiling. The question wasn't whether or not they allow a 'dirty' debt limit increase or a clean one, it's how big the clean one needs to be.

/Non-issue.
 
2013-10-08 10:07:07 AM  

Therion: I fully expect that the Democrats will manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.


What is this victory you speak of?
 
2013-10-08 10:07:31 AM  

maweimer9: error 303: maweimer9: I am not okay with the left backing down here.  I am not okay with them "compromising" (aka giving in) in any way.  The right has successfully moved the left to the center right and if they move any further, I'll find myself voting for what the old Republicans used to be.

They're already compromised. A lot. The clean CR at sequestration levels is well below Obama's proposed budget or the Senate budget. It's pretty much exactly in line with the GOPs new budget, and well below Ryan's original proposed budget. Establishing sequestration funding levels as the new Federal budget baseline is a huge GOP win.

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 310x535]

Which is EXACTLY why they can't give in any further.  They've already compromised.  Why is it that they haven't communicated this strongly enough?  I mean this should be on the first soundbyte of every news program.  The Dems should be front and center screaming this at the top of their lungs.


The problem, in many cases, is that this IS being covered in the news - but in the interest of "fairness" there's equal time for the other, moronic side as well.

Most people will tune out and only catch "one side says this the other says that" and just figure it's a two-way issue equally. This is because most people are terrible.
 
2013-10-08 10:09:09 AM  
I wonder if this is part of a plan to impeach Obama.

Given how quickly we're ticking down to the default it looks like the GOP is going to go over the cliff and force Obama to declare the Debt Ceiling unconstitutional due to the 14th Amendment and instruct the treasury to continue issuing debt. The GOP will then have enough justification (in their minds) to finally start impeachment proceedings, with the hope they can turn the Senate in 2014 to make the impeachment successful.
 
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