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(Reuters)   Governor Moonbeam decides to bring in new experts in immigration law   (reuters.com) divider line 99
    More: Interesting, Southern California, governors, Sergio Garcia, California Supreme Court, immigration, illegal immigrants, brown sign  
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2116 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Oct 2013 at 7:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-06 04:01:36 PM  
Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.
 
2013-10-06 04:22:14 PM  
If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.
 
2013-10-06 06:32:37 PM  

FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.


I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.
 
2013-10-06 06:33:13 PM  

TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.


How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?
 
2013-10-06 06:51:19 PM  
OK the driver's license thing I get, but allowing non-citizens to be lawyers? What's the point, exactly? Why that specific profession? Is there a shortage or something?
 
2013-10-06 07:27:15 PM  
Didn't he get the moonbeam name because he wanted to use satellites for communication back in the 70's? Dude sounds like a loon, that will never happen
 
2013-10-06 07:33:41 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Didn't he get the moonbeam name because he wanted to use satellites for communication back in the 70's? Dude sounds like a loon, that will never happen


According to this:

FTA:  The nickname was coined by Mike Royko, the famed Chicago columnist, who in 1976 said that Mr. Brown appeared to be attracting "the moonbeam vote," which in Chicago political parlance meant young, idealistic and nontraditional.

 It's not a disparaging name, I think it's kind of catchy.
 
2013-10-06 07:51:31 PM  

Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?


The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.
 
2013-10-06 07:56:08 PM  
I didn't know California had a big illegal Israeli immigrant problem
 
2013-10-06 07:58:43 PM  
Der takin r lawyer jerbs!
 
2013-10-06 08:04:02 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?

The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.


Good. I like to see people able to come here and be a part of our nation, but to do so legally is all
 
2013-10-06 08:04:23 PM  

fusillade762: OK the driver's license thing I get, but allowing non-citizens to be lawyers? What's the point, exactly? Why that specific profession? Is there a shortage or something?


The example given was some guy who was brought to the country as a kid illegally and managed to get a law degree despite being illegal. I guess the practical reason is that if you've managed to become a lawyer as an illegal, you're pretty much the definition of "educated professional worker" that nations want to immigrate. Odds are you aren't a criminal or otherwise taxing the welfare system, so why bust their balls? The money they make in the state will be taxed by the state.
 
2013-10-06 08:05:13 PM  

Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.


Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.
 
2013-10-06 08:07:03 PM  

Kit Fister: Darth_Lukecash: Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?

The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.

Good. I like to see people able to come here and be a part of our nation, but to do so legally is all


Of course you do. I am sure you are very vocal about fixing the immigration system.

biatching about illegal aliens and then claiming you want what's best for foreigners is the "i am not racist but" of the immigration debate.
 
2013-10-06 08:07:28 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.


The point is, either make them go through the process ofobtaining citizenship or kick them out.
 
2013-10-06 08:09:02 PM  
"While Washington waffles on immigration, California's forging ahead," Brown said in a statement. "I'm not waiting."

[okaywiththis]
 
2013-10-06 08:11:02 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Darth_Lukecash: Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?

The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.

Good. I like to see people able to come here and be a part of our nation, but to do so legally is all

Of course you do. I am sure you are very vocal about fixing the immigration system.

biatching about illegal aliens and then claiming you want what's best for foreigners is the "i am not racist but" of the immigration debate.


I do actually. I support immigration reform and actively contribute to efforts to reform it. But it seriously undermines the process of demonstrating why its needed if we just turn around and grant all the rights and privileges to those who come here illegally and don't attempt to obtain citizenship. What's the point of reforming it if we just give everything to people who don't go through the process?
 
2013-10-06 08:11:09 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.


Not to mention that the legal hurdles of legal emigration are impossible unless you have big bucks and lawyers on hand. No poor smuck is getting papers to work a kitchen job at a diner. So they immigrate illegally to better their situation. Papers won't block desperate people.

You could try to heavily fine businesses but "ar Jerb Creators!!!" Is the usual response to that.
 
2013-10-06 08:16:15 PM  

Dante87336: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.

Not to mention that the legal hurdles of legal emigration are impossible unless you have big bucks and lawyers on hand. No poor smuck is getting papers to work a kitchen job at a diner. So they immigrate illegally to better their situation. Papers won't block desperate people.

You could try to heavily fine businesses but "ar Jerb Creators!!!" Is the usual response to that.


Its a fine line. My take on it is to open up a program whereby entrants may register at the gate, and be fingerprinted and tracked with periodic monitoring. Also, mandatory civil service of some sort. Make it five years with no criminal activity and holding a stable job, give back to your community, and you're a citizen.
 
2013-10-06 08:16:57 PM  

Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.


There's no law prohibiting undocumented immigration. If the federal government knows you are here without a permit you are deported. They're not criminals, they're some other country's problem.

The State of California is not in the business of enforcing federal immigration law (in fact it's illegal for us to meddle in that matter). It is, however, in the business of licensing resident motorists and maintaining safe vehicle operating standards. Simply put, we don't give a shiat if you're a citizen or not; we want to know if you know how to drive a car before we let you on our roads.
 
2013-10-06 08:18:00 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?

The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.


The Obama administration redefined what counts as a deportation and hoped that enough people would take their word for it that they've deported more people all the while deporting fewer immigrants.
 
2013-10-06 08:18:01 PM  

Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.


Did the baby break the law when he was brought into the country by his parents? Or did his parents break the law? It seems harsh to hold people responsible for actions they made as infants.
 
2013-10-06 08:19:21 PM  

Target Builder: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Did the baby break the law when he was brought into the country by his parents? Or did his parents break the law? It seems harsh to hold people responsible for actions they made as infants.


So they aregiven probation and a viable path to citizenship.
 
2013-10-06 08:22:20 PM  
When "Moonbeam" took office just two years ago, California had a $27 billion budget deficit. It is now a $1.6 billion SURPLUS. CA has the second-fastest growing job growth in the nation. The housing market is back big. What a nightmare, huh?
 
2013-10-06 08:25:24 PM  

shower_in_my_socks: When "Moonbeam" took office just two years ago, California had a $27 billion budget deficit. It is now a $1.6 billion SURPLUS. CA has the second-fastest growing job growth in the nation. The housing market is back big. What a nightmare, huh?


That's great. I'm truly happy to see that, and I applaud any method that ensures taxes and safety are covered by all, and I guess I have to admit that children of illegals need to be recognized differently than those who sneak across the border.
 
2013-10-06 08:25:40 PM  
fta While Washington waffles on immigration, California's forging ahead," Brown said in a statement. "I'm not waiting."

I don't understand how that forwards the teabagger's gridlock agenda
 
2013-10-06 08:27:16 PM  

Notabunny: fta While Washington waffles on immigration, California's forging ahead," Brown said in a statement. "I'm not waiting."

I don't understand how that forwards the teabagger's gridlock agenda


fark the tea party. If conservative moderates had any balls they'd form a third party and marginalize the tea party.
 
2013-10-06 08:27:20 PM  

FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.



Even if you were issuing DL's without verifying legal status it still wouldn't make the bad drivers get one.

I guess they'll make it illegal to ask "Are you a scofflaw?" in the Bar exam.
 
2013-10-06 08:29:24 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.

The point is, either make them go through the process ofobtaining citizenship or kick them out.


You keep saying "point" but you lack the skills to comprehend those of others.

The fact that some levels of human interaction ignore or turn a blind eye to immigration violations is not a "reward" for illegal immigrants.

Furthermore, expecting every single interaction to bother checking on this one violation is obsessive and honestly suggests you are either racist or over-estimate the damage an illegal alien causes to our society.

It is pretty ridiculous.
 
2013-10-06 08:32:43 PM  

Kit Fister: Notabunny: fta While Washington waffles on immigration, California's forging ahead," Brown said in a statement. "I'm not waiting."

I don't understand how that forwards the teabagger's gridlock agenda

fark the tea party. If conservative moderates had any balls they'd form a third party and marginalize the tea party.


Surely, teabaggers and the reality-based community can negotiate. You don't mid if I call your Shirley, do you?
 
2013-10-06 08:34:23 PM  

Darth Macho: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

There's no law prohibiting undocumented immigration. If the federal government knows you are here without a permit you are deported. They're not criminals, they're some other country's problem.

The State of California is not in the business of enforcing federal immigration law (in fact it's illegal for us to meddle in that matter). It is, however, in the business of licensing resident motorists and maintaining safe vehicle operating standards. Simply put, we don't give a shiat if you're a citizen or not; we want to know if you know how to drive a car before we let you on our roads.


There are in fact laws, both civil and criminal, for immigration. From entry without inspection to overstay to smuggling laws to re-entry after deportion, there are laws on the books, in the US code.

I am amazed this lie has the legs it does. It is laughable on its face.
 
2013-10-06 08:39:46 PM  
Here is one example of a criminal penalty for an immigration law. I don't expect to change many opinions on fark, but putting an end to the falsehood that breaking immigration laws is strictly non-criminal ought to be in the realm of possibility.

8 usc section 1326

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1326
 
2013-10-06 08:42:07 PM  

Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.

The point is, either make them go through the process ofobtaining citizenship or kick them out.

You keep saying "point" but you lack the skills to comprehend those of others.

The fact that some levels of human interaction ignore or turn a blind eye to immigration violations is not a "reward" for illegal immigrants.

Furthermore, expecting every single interaction to bother checking on this one violation is obsessive and honestly suggests you are either racist or over-estimate the damage an illegal alien causes to our society.

It is pretty ridiculous.


The only thing I hate about illegal immigration is that it puts desperate people at the mercy of unscrupulous criminals, leads to them living in poverty conditions and squalor, not seeing any redress for abuse, and in some cases putting a greater burden on society when they get sick or have accidents.

They are a liability only because we have no way to ensure they are safe and treated fairly, and a danger only because they act as unwilling participants in crimes that do cause harm, or mask the entry of the relatively few who really want to do harm.
 
2013-10-06 08:46:57 PM  
Time for a recall.
 
2013-10-06 08:50:55 PM  

Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: Smackledorfer: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

Why use the stupidly biased wording of "reward"? They are not getting extra for breaking a law, they are simply not getting locked out of the entire legal system and civil laws at every level of government.

I understand you WANT them to be locked out in that way, but an illegal alien getting a driver's license isn't getting a reward for breaking the law.

Well, unless you consider 'being allowed on the other side of the street' to be a reward of jaywalking.

The point is, either make them go through the process ofobtaining citizenship or kick them out.

You keep saying "point" but you lack the skills to comprehend those of others.

The fact that some levels of human interaction ignore or turn a blind eye to immigration violations is not a "reward" for illegal immigrants.

Furthermore, expecting every single interaction to bother checking on this one violation is obsessive and honestly suggests you are either racist or over-estimate the damage an illegal alien causes to our society.

It is pretty ridiculous.

The only thing I hate about illegal immigration is that it puts desperate people at the mercy of unscrupulous criminals, leads to them living in poverty conditions and squalor, not seeing any redress for abuse, and in some cases putting a greater burden on society when they get sick or have accidents.

They are a liability only because we have no way to ensure they are safe and treated fairly, and a danger only because they act as unwilling participants in crimes that do cause harm, or mask the entry of the relatively few who really want to do harm.


So the thing you hate about illegal immigration is how little access illegals have to the system?

Part of your response to illegal immigration is to call for fewer "rewards" for illegals, where example rewards in this thread, by you, are things like access to state laws and regulations? Access to legal commuting and jobs using an education?

Do you see a problem there?

And yes a perfect immigration system might solve that contradiction, but how about in the meantime we get illegal aliens a driver's license, education, insurance access, etc? Why? Because it benefits ME for them to have that.
 
2013-10-06 08:52:54 PM  

Smackledorfer: Darth Macho: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

There's no law prohibiting undocumented immigration. If the federal government knows you are here without a permit you are deported. They're not criminals, they're some other country's problem.

The State of California is not in the business of enforcing federal immigration law (in fact it's illegal for us to meddle in that matter). It is, however, in the business of licensing resident motorists and maintaining safe vehicle operating standards. Simply put, we don't give a shiat if you're a citizen or not; we want to know if you know how to drive a car before we let you on our roads.

There are in fact laws, both civil and criminal, for immigration. From entry without inspection to overstay to smuggling laws to re-entry after deportion, there are laws on the books, in the US code.

I am amazed this lie has the legs it does. It is laughable on its face.


And what's the criminal penalty for these? How much prison time?

There are regulations for government agencies to process unauthorized residents and those are what you are describing. There are no immigration 'laws' like there are for trespassing.
 
2013-10-06 09:03:25 PM  

Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.


I could be convinced of the justice of that, on one condition.  If it is easier to immigrate to the US legally than it is to immigrate illegally, then yes, illegal immigrants should be deported.  That means no "quotas" from different regions, nations, or continents, and a basically "rubber stamp" guarantee of citizenship as long as the immigrant doesn't break any other civil or criminal laws.

As long as we make it a more or less  pro forma process: "walk in, get your ticket stamped, and don't be an asshole, and you're good to go."  If we do that, then yes, "do it legally or GTFO" is a reasonable policy.

The only reason that people immigrate to the US illegally is that doing so legally is next to impossible for the people who we actually need (poor people who are willing to work hard for low wages).  Make legal immigration easier and I'll have no problem being more harsh on the illegal immigrants.
 
2013-10-06 09:03:42 PM  

FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.


Chances are if they're illegal they don't even have insurance.  So your whole point about wanting the driver to be licensed is a bit of a moot point.

So again, what's the point of letting illegal, or undocumented immigrants have driver licenses again?  Like a few other farkers have said before- If they want to become legal, then open up, or make those channels EASIER so these people can become legal.
 
2013-10-06 09:08:43 PM  

Darth Macho: Smackledorfer: Darth Macho: Kit Fister: FloydA: If people are going to be driving, I want them to be licensed.  I don't give a damn where they were born, only that they are competent behind the wheel.

I suppose I feel the same way about lawyers.  If you can pass the bar, you're qualified.  I can't think of any way in which one's place of birth or citizenship has an effect on his or her abilities as an attorney.

I think the point is two fold: one we should find ways to let people legally immigrate, and two, we need to farking stop rewarding people who break the goddamn law.

You want to come here? Fine. Do it legally. You should not be afforded benefits for breaking the law, no matter where you come from.

There's no law prohibiting undocumented immigration. If the federal government knows you are here without a permit you are deported. They're not criminals, they're some other country's problem.

The State of California is not in the business of enforcing federal immigration law (in fact it's illegal for us to meddle in that matter). It is, however, in the business of licensing resident motorists and maintaining safe vehicle operating standards. Simply put, we don't give a shiat if you're a citizen or not; we want to know if you know how to drive a car before we let you on our roads.

There are in fact laws, both civil and criminal, for immigration. From entry without inspection to overstay to smuggling laws to re-entry after deportion, there are laws on the books, in the US code.

I am amazed this lie has the legs it does. It is laughable on its face.

And what's the criminal penalty for these? How much prison time?

There are regulations for government agencies to process unauthorized residents and those are what you are describing. There are no immigration 'laws' like there are for trespassing.


Already linked one, chief.
Up to ten years for an 8 usc § 1326.

Here is another:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325

8 usc § 1325, your basic entry without inspection, carries up to 2 years.

Care to admit you are wrong, or will lots of squirming and goalpost moving be in your future?
 
2013-10-06 09:13:45 PM  
Anyone who called Jerry Brown "Moonbeam" should have their eyes gouged out, just on principle.
 
2013-10-06 09:17:44 PM  
I was talking with my fairly conservative coworker on the way to lunch, and this was on the radio. He's not whrrgarbly except when it comes to his certainty that government can do no good and that most of it is scope creep...

So it actually made him think when I said that I used to care about this sort of thing, but then I realized that if they want to be here and they do not break any of our laws except our very bullshiat immigration limits, then let 'em in.

Simple background check (Ping active databases for outstanding warrents/crimes under that name, verify if it's the same person or not), and check for major communicable diseases. Pass those? Get a packet, "WELCOME TO AMERICA!" in their native language (for best comprehension), explains the basics of what they're required, path for citizenship, what resources they can look up, basic rights, etc etc etc.
 
2013-10-06 09:18:10 PM  
Kit Fister:

fark the tea party. If conservative moderates had any balls they'd form a third party and marginalize the tea party.

They did.  The moderate conservative party is called "the Democrats."

TheEdibleSnuggie:

Chances are if they're illegal they don't even have insurance.  So your whole point about wanting the driver to be licensed is a bit of a moot point.


In my state (WA), and in every state where I have ever got a license (CA, NV, AZ, and IL), in order to get a license, a prospective driver has to demonstrate that s/he understands the rules and regulations by successfully passing a written test, and s/he must also demonstrate competence by passing a practical test behind the wheel.

I suppose you're right that we can't guarantee that every driver will buy insurance, but of course that is true of citizens and legal residents too, so that doesn't have much bearing on the issue of undocumented immigrants driving.  At least if someone has a license, there is some degree of paper trail to follow if they do seriously screw up.

I like your idea that drivers should be required by law to have auto insurance; that sounds like a great plan.  I've heard of a similar program with regards to health insurance, although some people seem to be less than enthusiastic about that.
 
2013-10-06 09:18:55 PM  

Smackledorfer: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325

8 usc § 1325, your basic entry without inspection, carries up to 2 years.


Maybe a better question is not "are there these laws?" but "Why are these laws here?"

My further opinion is if you got a strong back, and you're willing to work hard and make a place for yourself and your kids, I'm happy to have ya. I also think if you're willing to do this kind of crud work you should get basic protections and rights without hiding in the shadows.
 
2013-10-06 09:26:47 PM  

Mrbogey: Darth_Lukecash: Kit Fister: TuteTibiImperes: Bill Maher was right, California really is leading the nation and showing the rest of us how it should be done.

How what should be done? No longer bothering to enforce our immigration laws?

The obsma administration have done a lot better job at enforcing immagration law than W Bush. In fact, it's the highest levels in ages.

The Obama administration redefined what counts as a deportation and hoped that enough people would take their word for it that they've deported more people all the while deporting fewer immigrants.


Why do you guys want it both ways?
 
2013-10-06 09:33:47 PM  

quatchi: "While Washington waffles on immigration, California's forging ahead," Brown said in a statement. "I'm not waiting."

[okaywiththis]


Me, too.

Jerry Farking Brown
 
2013-10-06 09:36:00 PM  

saintstryfe: Smackledorfer: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325

8 usc § 1325, your basic entry without inspection, carries up to 2 years.

Maybe a better question is not "are there these laws?" but "Why are these laws here?"

My further opinion is if you got a strong back, and you're willing to work hard and make a place for yourself and your kids, I'm happy to have ya. I also think if you're willing to do this kind of crud work you should get basic protections and rights without hiding in the shadows.


That is fine, but has nothing to do with the falsehood I was trying to counter.

Fwiw I favor significant expansion of immigration, easing of the process, etc. Moreover I support ending the drug war and hopefully that will long-term result in fewer economic incentives for mexicans to come as well as more incentive for us to go there.

I would also give businesses an incentive to move factories from other continents to North America (they can pick us, canada, or mexico, it is all good).

Not that mexicans are superior to chinese or anything silly like that, nor am I in any waya nationalist, but our country's laws should serve itself first, and a healthy mexico is healthy for us.

Also I would love safer trips there, if not retiring in mexico.
 
2013-10-06 09:48:58 PM  
media.nj.com
Gov Moonpie sends his regards
 
2013-10-06 09:51:42 PM  

FloydA: TheEdibleSnuggie:

Chances are if they're illegal they don't even have insurance.  So your whole point about wanting the driver to be licensed is a bit of a moot point.


In my state (WA), and in every state where I have ever got a license (CA, NV, AZ, and IL), in order to get a license, a prospective driver has to demonstrate that s/he understands the rules and regulations by successfully passing a written test, and s/he must also demonstrate competence by passing a practical test behind the wheel.

I suppose you're right that we can't guarantee that every driver will buy insurance, but of course that is true of citizens and legal residents too, so that doesn't have much bearing on the issue of undocumented immigrants driving.  At least if someone has a license, there is some degree of paper trail to follow if they do seriously screw up.

I like your idea that drivers should be required by law to have auto insurance; that sounds like a great plan.  I've heard of a similar program with regards to health insurance, although some people seem to be less than enthusiastic about that.


A couple of things...

1)  A driver's license is nothing more than a plastic card, which at best, only demonstrates that you have the minimum amount of training required by the state for them to say you're able to obtain the physical license itself.  It says nothing about the driver's ability to actually operate a vehicle properly, or even responsibly for that matter.  If that was the case we'd be forced to sign affadavits verifying that we'd never take a sip of alcohol, because of drink-driving; we'd never use our cellphones while driving; we'd never eat while driving; we'd never listen to music on our car stereos at egregious or distracting volumes, while driving.  I understand that's why we have cops- to enforce the laws- but if a driver's license truly was an indicator that you understood the rules and regulations of the road...we'd have 0 accidents.


2)  If the driver's license issued to illegals was ONLY valid in California- I wouldn't be so opposed to it.  But remember, all 50 states and territories (as well as numerous international bodies) officially recognize and reciprocate driving privileges for driver's licenses issued in other US states.  That means at MINIMUM, the driver is going to be 18 years of age, and be able to both speak and write the English language fluently (or well enough to understand intermediate communication).  You're not guaranteed that with somebody who is an illegal/ undocumented.  And considering California offers bi-lingual EVERYTHING, and DMV employees who speak Spanish for this explicit purpose (by law, I might add)- it's highly possible you can get an illegal, with a valid driver's license, who ONLY speaks Spanish, and only understood English well enough to get a card in CA.

Maybe I'm being a bit alarmist.  But I'd HAVE to imagine that the powers-that-be in Sacramento were actively thinking about something like this...Then again...
 
2013-10-06 09:54:12 PM  

TheEdibleSnuggie: FloydA: TheEdibleSnuggie:

Chances are if they're illegal they don't even have insurance.  So your whole point about wanting the driver to be licensed is a bit of a moot point.


In my state (WA), and in every state where I have ever got a license (CA, NV, AZ, and IL), in order to get a license, a prospective driver has to demonstrate that s/he understands the rules and regulations by successfully passing a written test, and s/he must also demonstrate competence by passing a practical test behind the wheel.

I suppose you're right that we can't guarantee that every driver will buy insurance, but of course that is true of citizens and legal residents too, so that doesn't have much bearing on the issue of undocumented immigrants driving.  At least if someone has a license, there is some degree of paper trail to follow if they do seriously screw up.

I like your idea that drivers should be required by law to have auto insurance; that sounds like a great plan.  I've heard of a similar program with regards to health insurance, although some people seem to be less than enthusiastic about that.

A couple of things...

1)  A driver's license is nothing more than a plastic card, which at best, only demonstrates that you have the minimum amount of training required by the state for them to say you're able to obtain the physical license itself.  It says nothing about the driver's ability to actually operate a vehicle properly, or even responsibly for that matter.  If that was the case we'd be forced to sign affadavits verifying that we'd never take a sip of alcohol, because of drink-driving; we'd never use our cellphones while driving; we'd never eat while driving; we'd never listen to music on our car stereos at egregious or distracting volumes, while driving.  I understand that's why we have cops- to enforce the laws- but if a driver's license truly was an indicator that you understood the rules and regulations of the road...we'd have 0 accidents.


2)  If the driver's license issued to illegals was ONLY valid in California- I wouldn't be so opposed to it.  But remember, all 50 states and territories (as well as numerous international bodies) officially recognize and reciprocate driving privileges for driver's licenses issued in other US states.  That means at MINIMUM, the driver is going to be 18 years of age, and be able to both speak and write the English language fluently (or well enough to understand intermediate communication).  You're not guaranteed that with somebody who is an illegal/ undocumented.  And considering California offers bi-lingual EVERYTHING, and DMV employees who speak Spanish for this explicit purpose (by law, I might add)- it's highly possible you can get an illegal, with a valid driver's license, who ONLY speaks Spanish, and only understood English well enough to get a card in CA.

Maybe I'm being a bit alarmist.  But I'd HAVE to imagine that the powers-that-be in Sacramento were actively thinking about something like this...Then again...


omg not spanish speakers in other states?!

that would be terrible.
 
2013-10-06 10:00:21 PM  
TheEdibleSnuggie:
1)  A driver's license is nothing more than a plastic card, which at best, only demonstrates that you have the minimum amount of training required by the state for them to say you're able to obtain the physical license itself.  It says nothing about the driver's ability to actually operate a vehicle properly, or even responsibly for that matter.  If that was the case we'd be forced to sign affadavits verifying that we'd never take a sip of alcohol, because of drink-driving; we'd never use our cellphones while driving; we'd never eat while driving; we'd never listen to music on our car stereos at egregious or distracting volumes, while driving.  I understand that's why we have cops- to enforce the laws- but if a driver's license truly was an indicator that you understood the rules and regulations of the road...we'd have 0 accidents.



Understanding the rules and laws and always following them are two different things.  Everyone knows drinking and driving is illegal and dangerous, but that doesn't stop anyone.  Plus, simple concentration lapses lead to plenty of accidents.

At a minimum getting a driver's license requires passing a written test that shows you have a basic understanding of the rules of the road and what various road signs mean.  I wouldn't be surprised if first-time licensees also had to complete a driving test.

Plus, it's not like there aren't cars in Mexico or South America.  Many immigrants are already familiar with the mechanics of driving, they just need to learn the customs and rules that are followed on US roads.
 
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