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(Talking Points Memo)   GOP: We have to destroy the country in order to save it   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 323
    More: Obvious, GOP, Boehner, United States  
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5080 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Oct 2013 at 5:50 PM (50 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-06 12:20:46 PM
if this is permitted to happen, it could be very, very bad for us.  I really really REALLY hope it doesn't get this far.
 
2013-10-06 12:24:00 PM
Sounds like a Democrat plan to me.
 
2013-10-06 12:27:07 PM
Because this strategy worked out so well with Vietnam.

(hey, it's a tourist destination now!)
 
2013-10-06 12:27:58 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Sounds like a Democrat plan to me.


nope - the GOP has decided to leave nothing but a burning wasteland in their wake.  all because giving access to affordable health care to people who need it is considered evil.  By them mind you, not the god they claim to worship.
 
2013-10-06 12:29:40 PM
And they are still blaming the President and the Dems.   I just witnessed Rand Paul BLAME them for not negotiating.   And the interviewee didn't bother to correct him.   So infuriating.
 
2013-10-06 12:47:53 PM
It might take a couple of generations, but moving solidly left in our politics will do this country a world of good in the long run. If, God forbid, we do go over this default cliff, that is bound to happen. Just be prepared for another 7 years of trial and tribulation...

It may be that our country, for some reason, still needs to have this fight. Even if it damages the country and the world economy, we'll all be the wiser for it later on down the road.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-10-06 12:49:53 PM
I think many of them would like to destroy the Union.  But defaulting would violate the 14th Amendment, which would create a constitutional crisis which will result is who the fark knows what.

Probably something they are really not going to like, like the House losing much of it's power.
 
2013-10-06 12:52:13 PM
We have to kill the deer or they'll die
 
2013-10-06 01:07:04 PM
What's a little scary is the extent to which the GOP, at least publicly, has in no ways at all seemed to grasp the actual Democratic position here. They don't seem to understand that for Obama and Reid, this isn't about what policies are good or bad or worth negotiating over. It's not a substantive issue about policy. It's about the fundamental nature of how our political system works. If you use the CR or the Debt Ceiling is negotiating leverage, or you permit that to happen, you are fundamentally altering the nature of our constitutional system. Obama realizes what a massive mistake he made in 2011 by putting us on this path (by all accounts Reid understood it then and hated that Obama negotiated).

That's the issue. The nature of our government. Not any specific policy. And until the GOP understands that, we're in serious trouble.
 
2013-10-06 01:19:21 PM
So I may be reading the rules wrong, but if we get close, like hours away close, to the debt ceiling, and if there really are moderate republicans who don't want to watch the world burn, roughly 17 of them to be precise, it seems they could demand a vote for a new Speaker of the House.  There was talk of it back in 2011 and 2012, but at that time it was the teabaggers who wanted to oust Boehner.  In theory, if the dems and moderate republicans could agree on someone, anyone really, to replace Boehner and have a simple majority, they could remove him and install a Speaker who would then immediately allow a vote on a clean debt ceiling bill.

It would be the first time in the history of the House that it was done, but it's in the "Jefferson's Manual" and like I said, lots of teatards were quoting it as sacrosanct law last year when they wanted Boehner out.  He's the one potentially setting this up to wreck the entire world economy, so if there are just 17 semi-sane republicans left, I think they could go it.  Of course that'd be the end of the republican party, and those reps specifically, but...well, maybe there are some folks left who think about things beyond their next election.

/wishful thinking, I know.
 
2013-10-06 01:28:30 PM
Starving the poor will teach them to work!
 
2013-10-06 01:36:12 PM
While it started out seeming like a big joke, the trillion dollar coin plan is starting to look a lot more reasonable now.

If the Democrats solve the shutdown with the discharge petition, and then avert a default with the trillion dollar coin plan, it would go a long way to showing the teabaggers and the particularly recalcitrant House Republicans exactly how little power they have.

Ideally I'd love for them to just agree to a clean CR and vote for a clean debt ceiling increase without having to play the games, but if they bring us to the edge and show no signs of budging, it would be irresponsible to not go over their heads to fix the mess.
 
2013-10-06 01:40:06 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Sounds like a Democrat plan to me.


Keep with that delusion, it might be true some day.
 
2013-10-06 01:41:15 PM

Godscrack: Starving the poor will teach them to work!


And if they die of hunger that's just God's will.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-10-06 01:52:18 PM

TuteTibiImperes: While it started out seeming like a big joke, the trillion dollar coin plan is starting to look a lot more reasonable now.


Simply ignoring the debt ceiling on the basis that it's a violation of the 14th Amendment is more reasonable, and probably more legally sound.
 
2013-10-06 01:55:47 PM
Boehner keeps saying he doesn't have the votes to pass a clean C.R. Why doesn't he allow a vote and prove it?

Oh, that's right. He is lying.

Continue with the self-destruction then, Republicans. It was nice knowing you.
 
2013-10-06 02:47:04 PM

Weaver95: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Sounds like a Democrat plan to me.

nope - the GOP has decided to leave nothing but a burning wasteland in their wake.  all because giving access to affordable health care to people who need it is considered evil.  By them mind you, not the god they claim to worship.


First, Obamacare has nothing to do with health care, it's about control (see 57,000 see IRS workers and no doctors).
Second, read Saul Alinski's book. You have to overwhelm it to fix it ( see every government social program).
Third, $16,000,000,000 in debt and counting.

All controlled by Democrats currently. Thanks for playing EPIC TROLL DUDE.
 
2013-10-06 02:49:15 PM

ManateeGag: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Sounds like a Democrat plan to me.

Keep with that delusion, it might be true some day.


Looing at the current state of affairs and not seeing it is delusional at best.
And thats coming from a life-long Democrat.
 
2013-10-06 02:56:03 PM
The real plan here is to keep you fighting amongst yourselves while both parties loot the system for themselves and their pals. As long as you're foolish enough to act as if this is a game and your team is scoring points, they win. Meanwhile they don't give a crap about you.

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-10-06 03:02:07 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.


Don't you mean wake up sheeple?
 
2013-10-06 03:02:55 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: The real plan here is to keep you fighting amongst yourselves while both parties loot the system for themselves and their pals. As long as you're foolish enough to act as if this is a game and your team is scoring points, they win. Meanwhile they don't give a crap about you.

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.


Both sides are bad.

/so vote Republican?
 
2013-10-06 03:05:16 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Thanks for playing EPIC TROLL DUDE.


Did you just call Weaver a troll?

Really?

Weaver?

Wow.

/in my day....
 
2013-10-06 03:06:52 PM

Dr. Whoof: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Thanks for playing EPIC TROLL DUDE.

Did you just call Weaver a troll?

Really?

Weaver?

Wow.

/in my day....


Hey, give the kid a break, he's new here. And pretty clueless about everything.
 
2013-10-06 03:08:48 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: The real plan here is to keep you fighting amongst yourselves while both parties loot the system for themselves and their pals. As long as you're foolish enough to act as if this is a game and your team is scoring points, they win. Meanwhile they don't give a crap about you.

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids sheeple!11111!!!11!!!

 
2013-10-06 03:09:01 PM
Whatchoo Talkinbout:

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.


The debt is irrelevant to the prosperity of the middle class.  The ACA will help the middle class by improving job mobility sense you'll no longer have to worry about losing your coverage if you quit one job to face either astronomical premiums or outright denials due to pre-existing conditions.

If anything we should be spending much, much, more money.  Job training programs, student loan forgiveness (possibly in exchange for working in critical need areas for a number of years), infrastructure initiatives, easier credit for small businesses and low net-worth entrepreneurs, penalties for companies that outsource overseas to encourage them to hire more American workers, investment in growing industries like clean energy, etc.

Tax reform is also certainly needed.  Much higher rates on the upper income brackets, higher rates on capital gains and investments, higher rates on corporations (with deductions available for investing back into R&D, higher employee wages, offering high percentages of total employees full benefits, and having a high percentage of the total company workforce, including all subsidiaries, be based in the US), and closing loopholes that allow companies to shirk their tax burden by moving money around through overseas subsidiaries and shell companies would all raise more than enough money to offset the spending.

When the economy is struggling that's the time to spend like crazy.  Getting the economy going at full speed will increase tax revenue and increase the GDP, making any increase in debt inconsequential.
 
2013-10-06 03:10:54 PM

TuteTibiImperes: When the economy is struggling that's the time to spend like crazy. Getting the economy going at full speed will increase tax revenue and increase the GDP, making any increase in debt inconsequential.


That's just crazy talk!

/The GOP has not the slightest clue on how to manage an economy. Never have, never will.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-10-06 03:11:23 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: Looing at the current state of affairs and not seeing it is delusional at best.
And thats coming from a life-long Democrat.


And conspiracy-nut.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-10-06 03:15:02 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?


The same way we paid the one that was larger at 113% of GDP after WWII while expanding the middle class at the same time?
 
2013-10-06 03:18:59 PM
They might be right, they don't even realize the unintended consequences and how this is going to going to bite them in the ass come election day.
 
2013-10-06 03:29:43 PM
Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?
 
2013-10-06 03:33:57 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.

The debt is irrelevant to the prosperity of the middle class.  The ACA will help the middle class by improving job mobility sense you'll no longer have to worry about losing your coverage if you quit one job to face either astronomical premiums or outright denials due to pre-existing conditions.

If anything we should be spending much, much, more money.  Job training programs, student loan forgiveness (possibly in exchange for working in critical need areas for a number of years), infrastructure initiatives, easier credit for small businesses and low net-worth entrepreneurs, penalties for companies that outsource overseas to encourage them to hire more American workers, investment in growing industries like clean energy, etc.

Tax reform is also certainly needed.  Much higher rates on the upper income brackets, higher rates on capital gains and investments, higher rates on corporations (with deductions available for investing back into R&D, higher employee wages, offering high percentages of total employees full benefits, and having a high percentage of the total company workforce, including all subsidiaries, be based in the US), and closing loopholes that allow companies to shirk their tax burden by moving money around through overseas subsidiaries and shell companies would all raise more than enough money to offset the spending.

When the economy is struggling that's the time to spend like crazy.  Getting the economy going at full speed will increase tax revenue and increase the GDP, making any increase in debt inconsequential.


It's been tried and failed.
 
2013-10-06 03:35:28 PM

Dinki: Dr. Whoof: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Thanks for playing EPIC TROLL DUDE.

Did you just call Weaver a troll?

Really?

Weaver?

Wow.

/in my day....

Hey, give the kid a break, he's new here. And pretty clueless about everything.


The voice of experience? Cute.
 
2013-10-06 03:37:30 PM

clancifer: Whatchoo Talkinbout: The real plan here is to keep you fighting amongst yourselves while both parties loot the system for themselves and their pals. As long as you're foolish enough to act as if this is a game and your team is scoring points, they win. Meanwhile they don't give a crap about you.

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.

Both sides are bad.

/so vote Republican?


So put serious effort into third party. Be prepared to vote against YOUR party. In short stop playing they're game and demand better.
 
2013-10-06 03:39:02 PM

vpb: Whatchoo Talkinbout: Looing at the current state of affairs and not seeing it is delusional at best.
And thats coming from a life-long Democrat.

And conspiracy-nut.


Hardly. but keep trying.
 
2013-10-06 03:40:32 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.

The debt is irrelevant to the prosperity of the middle class.  The ACA will help the middle class by improving job mobility sense you'll no longer have to worry about losing your coverage if you quit one job to face either astronomical premiums or outright denials due to pre-existing conditions.

If anything we should be spending much, much, more money.  Job training programs, student loan forgiveness (possibly in exchange for working in critical need areas for a number of years), infrastructure initiatives, easier credit for small businesses and low net-worth entrepreneurs, penalties for companies that outsource overseas to encourage them to hire more American workers, investment in growing industries like clean energy, etc.

Tax reform is also certainly needed.  Much higher rates on the upper income brackets, higher rates on capital gains and investments, higher rates on corporations (with deductions available for investing back into R&D, higher employee wages, offering high percentages of total employees full benefits, and having a high percentage of the total company workforce, including all subsidiaries, be based in the US), and closing loopholes that allow companies to shirk their tax burden by moving money around through overseas subsidiaries and shell companies would all raise more than enough money to offset the spending.

When the economy is struggling that's the time to spend like crazy.  Getting the economy going at full speed will increase tax revenue and increase the GDP, making any increase in debt inconsequential.

It's been tried and failed.


Really ?  When was that?
 
2013-10-06 03:41:23 PM

vpb: Whatchoo Talkinbout: How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

The same way we paid the one that was larger at 113% of GDP after WWII while expanding the middle class at the same time?


With the only functioning economic superpower in the world with little war damage. Nice try. You should know better.
 
2013-10-06 03:42:27 PM

FloydA: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?


An observer.
 
2013-10-06 03:59:17 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: FloydA: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?

An observer.


JAFO?
 
2013-10-06 04:03:21 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout: TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

The only real thing, $16,000,000,000 in debt and no sign of stopping. Social programs rife with waste and fraud growing by leaps and bounds, and now a new one to loot.

How, exactly will that be paid without decimating the middle class?

It doesn't matter what party you are sacrificing you future for at this point. Wake up kids.

The debt is irrelevant to the prosperity of the middle class.  The ACA will help the middle class by improving job mobility sense you'll no longer have to worry about losing your coverage if you quit one job to face either astronomical premiums or outright denials due to pre-existing conditions.

If anything we should be spending much, much, more money.  Job training programs, student loan forgiveness (possibly in exchange for working in critical need areas for a number of years), infrastructure initiatives, easier credit for small businesses and low net-worth entrepreneurs, penalties for companies that outsource overseas to encourage them to hire more American workers, investment in growing industries like clean energy, etc.

Tax reform is also certainly needed.  Much higher rates on the upper income brackets, higher rates on capital gains and investments, higher rates on corporations (with deductions available for investing back into R&D, higher employee wages, offering high percentages of total employees full benefits, and having a high percentage of the total company workforce, including all subsidiaries, be based in the US), and closing loopholes that allow companies to shirk their tax burden by moving money around through overseas subsidiaries and shell companies would all raise more than enough money to offset the spending.

When the economy is struggling that's the time to spend like crazy.  Getting the economy going at full speed will increase tax revenue and increase the GDP, making any increase in debt inconsequential.

It's been tried and failed.

Really ?  When was tha ...



Come on, be serious instead of partisan for a change.

1. The debt must be paid. All of the wealthy people's money won't do it. When you overtax they will leave.
2. ACA will tax everyone to provide oppressive government control. Pre-existing conditions will be paid for by all, there is no free lunch. Most jobs already used healthcare as an incentive. Pick your poison, it's not what you say it is sadly.
3. For government to spend, it has to take first. That's inefficient at best, rife with fraud at worst (Solyndra). Student loan debt is being excused now, for government workers only. Infrastructure taxes are coming, bridges won't build themselves. Carbon taxing will be the icing on the oppressive cake. Think dramatically higher taxes for the middle class.
4. If you intend to 'reform' taxes, remember that the corporate tax lawyers are two steps ahead of you. Flat tax maybe.
5. When the economy is stalled it's time to get the private sector to spend like crazy. Only backing the government away makes that happen. But keep the oversight in place, companies are as dangerous as government. Both need to be watched closely.

You can see this when you take the government goggles off.
 
2013-10-06 04:07:31 PM

HighOnCraic: Whatchoo Talkinbout: FloydA: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?

An observer.

JAFO?


Just About Fed-up with Opressive stupidty. You never know.
 
2013-10-06 04:08:15 PM

FloydA: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?


Lol.  I just read that in Bill Cosby's voice.
 
2013-10-06 04:13:25 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: HighOnCraic: Whatchoo Talkinbout: FloydA: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

OK, who is this really?

An observer.

JAFO?

Just About Fed-up with Opressive stupidty. You never know.


content6.flixster.com
 
2013-10-06 04:19:49 PM
Whatchoo Talkinbout:

Come on, be serious instead of partisan for a change.

1. The debt must be paid. All of the wealthy people's money won't do it. When you overtax they will leave.


Why must it be paid right now?  Debt is only a problem in relation to total earning power.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $30,000 per year, that's a problem.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $2,000,000 per year, that's not a problem at all.  Invest in the economy and get things rolling.  Increase the GDP and tax revenue faster than you increase the debt and you have no problem.  The wealthy people aren't going anywhere, even with higher taxes here they'd still be much lower than most of the rest of the developed world, and the opportunities are here to make money.

2. ACA will tax everyone to provide oppressive government control. Pre-existing conditions will be paid for by all, there is no free lunch. Most jobs already used healthcare as an incentive. Pick your poison, it's not what you say it is sadly.

There's nothing oppressive about the ACA.  It ensures individual freedom in the health insurance market by allowing everyone access regardless of employment situation or pre-existing condition status.  Yes, that means that younger healthier people are subsidizing older sicker people, and those with more money are subsidizing those with less, but there's nothing wrong with that.  It's a fair way to do things, though single payer would be better.

3. For government to spend, it has to take first. That's inefficient at best, rife with fraud at worst (Solyndra). Student loan debt is being excused now, for government workers only. Infrastructure taxes are coming, bridges won't build themselves. Carbon taxing will be the icing on the oppressive cake. Think dramatically higher taxes for the middle class.

The government doesn't have to take anything to spend more.  We could spend without raising taxes, though I do think we should raise taxes on the upper income brackets and corporations because right now they're way too low.  Carbon taxes are a good idea.  Climate change is a major issue, and we should implement penalties to try to slow down our greenhouse emissions.  The vast majority of programs supported through the Department of Energy initiative to invest in green energy were successful.  You only heard about the failures on the news, overall the program has been a resounding success.

4. If you intend to 'reform' taxes, remember that the corporate tax lawyers are two steps ahead of you. Flat tax maybe.

Flat taxes are an awful idea.  They're regressive and hurt the poor, working, and middle classes while benefiting the wealthy.

5. When the economy is stalled it's time to get the private sector to spend like crazy. Only backing the government away makes that happen. But keep the oversight in place, companies are as dangerous as government. Both need to be watched closely.

Government investment helps the private sector as well.  When the government wants to build a new bridge it's private contractors and construction firms that get the business.  I believe we should be hiring many more people onto the government payroll as well, as any job growth is good, but investing in infrastructure, job training, clean energy, etc, all benefits the private sector directly.

You can see this when you take the government goggles off.

I have no goggles, I just realize that by and large government is a very good thing and should be enacting policies aimed at growth.  The government is not the enemy, taxes are not the enemy, spending is not the enemy.  The government exists for the benefit of everyone, we should be petitioning it to start working more for the common man.

I also noticed that you did not even attempt to justify your comment that we'd tried my suggestions and failed, I'm still waiting on that.
 
2013-10-06 04:33:27 PM
"'We're not going to pass a clean debt limit increase,' he said. 'I told the president, there's no way we're going to pass one. The votes are not in the House to pass a clean debt limit. And the president is risking default by not having a conversation with us.'"

What about not hurting the world's faith in the US as a functioning government/economy does Boehner think is deserving of concessions from the Democrats? What does he think his party is conceding?
 
2013-10-06 04:37:53 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

Come on, be serious instead of partisan for a change.

1. The debt must be paid. All of the wealthy people's money won't do it. When you overtax they will leave.

Why must it be paid right now?  Debt is only a problem in relation to total earning power.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $30,000 per year, that's a problem.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $2,000,000 per year, that's not a problem at all.  Invest in the economy and get things rolling.  Increase the GDP and tax revenue faster than you increase the debt and you have no problem.  The wealthy people aren't going anywhere, even with higher taxes here they'd still be much lower than most of the rest of the developed world, and the opportunities are here to make money.

2. ACA will tax everyone to provide oppressive government control. Pre-existing conditions will be paid for by all, there is no free lunch. Most jobs already used healthcare as an incentive. Pick your poison, it's not what you say it is sadly.

There's nothing oppressive about the ACA.  It ensures individual freedom in the health insurance market by allowing everyone access regardless of employment situation or pre-existing condition status.  Yes, that means that younger healthier people are subsidizing older sicker people, and those with more money are subsidizing those with less, but there's nothing wrong with that.  It's a fair way to do things, though single payer would be better.

3. For government to spend, it has to take first. That's inefficient at best, rife with fraud at worst (Solyndra). Student loan debt is being excused now, for government workers only. Infrastructure taxes are coming, bridges won't build themselves. Carbon taxing will be the icing on the oppressive cake. Think dramatically higher taxes for the middle class.

The government doesn't have to take anything to spend more.  We could spend without raising taxes, though I do think we should raise taxes on the upper income ...


The government spends by first taxing. Period. Call it user fees if you like, it's the same thing, money out of your pocket. You will see, your government dream programs often end in fraud-laden failures, ACA will be no different.

I agree with the need of a strong government overseeing the private sector, where we differ is, I demand accountability, and I'm prepared to diminish the parts of government that can't provide it. And right now that's damn near all of it. That's indesputable. We can argue the finer pints all night, but our government was a mess under Bush and it's a mess under Obama. Giving it more money is foolish, much like giving a crack addict money to fix himself.

Accountability first, money second.
 
2013-10-06 04:46:56 PM
Whatchoo Talkinbout:
Third, $16,000,000,000 in debt and counting.

If only it were that small.

/missing a few zeroes there, sparky
 
2013-10-06 04:50:13 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: The government spends by first taxing. Period. Call it user fees if you like, it's the same thing, money out of your pocket. You will see, your government dream programs often end in fraud-laden failures, ACA will be no different.

I agree with the need of a strong government overseeing the private sector, where we differ is, I demand accountability, and I'm prepared to diminish the parts of government that can't provide it. And right now that's damn near all of it. That's indesputable. We can argue the finer pints all night, but our government was a mess under Bush and it's a mess under Obama. Giving it more money is foolish, much like giving a crack addict money to fix himself.

Accountability first, money second.


Sure, at the root level, the government is funded by taxes.  Increasing taxes on the wealthy and the corporations who are currently under-taxed would be a smart move.

I agree with you that there is inefficiency in some government programs, and that it's worth trying to find what to make those programs more efficient.  A certain amount of fraud is going to exist in any system, whether publicly or privately funded.  Big government programs like Social Security have very low rates of fraud compared to the total output of the program.  Medicare has a slightly higher fraud rate, though most of that comes from health car providers overbilling the system or incorrectly billing it, not from the beneficiaries.  While investigating ways to improve efficiency to provide more cost-effective service is important, it's also important to do so in a way that doesn't deprive current beneficiaries of that service or make it harder for them to use it legitimately.

The ACA will need some time to see what works and what needs improvement, but it's fairly robust to start out.   It does include a number of important cost cutting provisions.

Cutting the funding to programs that people rely on would result in undue hardship.  We don't need to stop or reduce funding to those programs to look at ways we could improve them.
 
2013-10-06 04:52:34 PM
The Speaker could ask for a voice vote and save everyone of the damned TEA Party Toddlers any shame when they went home;  "Oh no, that was all those other guys.  I still believe!"
 
2013-10-06 04:58:53 PM

Whatchoo Talkinbout: The government spends by first taxing. Period. Call it user fees if you like, it's the same thing, money out of your pocket. You will see, your government dream programs often end in fraud-laden failures, ACA will be no different.

I agree with the need of a strong government overseeing the private sector, where we differ is, I demand accountability, and I'm prepared to diminish the parts of government that can't provide it. And right now that's damn near all of it. That's indesputable. We can argue the finer pints all night, but our government was a mess under Bush and it's a mess under Obama. Giving it more money is foolish, much like giving a crack addict money to fix himself.

Accountability first, money second.


1. The government is providing a service. Services cost money. But that service ISN'T healthcare. Private insurers are providing that. The government is regulating and coordinating the market, to incentivize the private insurers to take risks they wouldn't otherwise do.
2. Public health is almost always an all-or-nothing proposition; either we all get vaccinated for smallpox, or we all have a problem. Ditto for health insurance. Either we all have it, to make a huge pool that is affordable for all, or only those who can afford it have it and the poor make do. We tried the second way. It sucked,and cost 18% of GDP (and rising). I think it's fair to give the other method a shot now.
3. 'Never reinforce failure is a valid maxim', but that's not really your position. Your position is 'it doesn't work, so burn it down'. If you were proposing any reasonable or functional alternatives (status quo ante isn't a functional alternative), we wouldn't be in this position.

So I posit the following to you:

1. Healthcare costs now comprise a full 18% of GDP, nearly 50% more than those of the next most expensive developed country, France (11%).
2. Despite paying that, we have 50,000,000 people uninsured, a greater number of people than the entire population of all but 25 of the world's 242 countries
3. QED, we are paying far more, but getting far less than anyone else out there.

In short, the health insurance companies aren't doing the job they say they will - covering us - and yet their profits continue to go up

I don't know about you, but where I come from, we call that 'getting ripped off'. 

How do YOU propose to keep us from getting ripped off?
 
2013-10-06 05:00:43 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Whatchoo Talkinbout:

Come on, be serious instead of partisan for a change.

1. The debt must be paid. All of the wealthy people's money won't do it. When you overtax they will leave.

Why must it be paid right now?  Debt is only a problem in relation to total earning power.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $30,000 per year, that's a problem.  If I have $200,000 in unsecured debt and make $2,000,000 per year, that's not a problem at all.  Invest in the economy and get things rolling.  Increase the GDP and tax revenue faster than you increase the debt and you have no problem.  The wealthy people aren't going anywhere, even with higher taxes here they'd still be much lower than most of the rest of the developed world, and the opportunities are here to make money.


The debt was a big issue when it was Bush's but not now that it's doubled?
How do you propose increasing the GDP by taxing?
Wealthy people will do what they have to to keep you out of their pocket, but nice MSNBC talking point. Based on your thinking there was no recession.

2. ACA will tax everyone to provide oppressive government control. Pre-existing conditions will be paid for by all, there is no free lunch. Most jobs already used healthcare as an incentive. Pick your poison, it's not what you say it is sadly.

There's nothing oppressive about the ACA.  It ensures individual freedom in the health insurance market by allowing everyone access regardless of employment situation or pre-existing condition status.  Yes, that means that younger healthier people are subsidizing older sicker people, and those with more money are subsidizing those with less, but there's nothing wrong with that.  It's a fair way to do things, though single payer would be better.



ACA is causing the government to hire tens of thousands of workers all retiring young with a full pension and free healthcare. Not cheap. It will spend billions on facilities, yet it provides NO CARE. ACA will require 57,000 IRS workers to be hired. Really? Young people are unlikely to sign up, it's much cheaper to pay the fine.
Mean while my healthcare costs have doubled in 3 years, and the exchange offers even worse, so far. Thanks ACA, it was 5-10 % a year previously. Real numbers, not talking points.

3. For government to spend, it has to take first. That's inefficient at best, rife with fraud at worst (Solyndra). Student loan debt is being excused now, for government workers only. Infrastructure taxes are coming, bridges won't build themselves. Carbon taxing will be the icing on the oppressive cake. Think dramatically higher taxes for the middle class.

The government doesn't have to take anything to spend more.  We could spend without raising taxes, though I do think should raise taxes on the upper income ...



The government must take to give. Period. It cannot even depate the issue without taxing someone for the salaries.
 
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