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(Slate)   When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?   (slate.com) divider line 182
    More: Interesting, Delaware Democratic Party, GOP, Democrats, humans, Rep. Jim McDermott, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, health insurance mandate, Democratic Coalition  
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4337 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Oct 2013 at 1:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-05 07:42:30 PM  

and Natasha: blastoh: cman: I wouldn't say that they grew a spine moreso than they are now more united than ever.

GOP gave pretty much every Democrat a common enemy by their actions

Those who were passive are now rather active because they are pretty damn angry

I think you pretty much nailed it.
There is the old saying (think it goes to Clinton) that "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

Since at least the seventies, the weakness of the democrats has always been their lack of unity, while the strength of the GOP has been their unity.


I think we are seeing the beginnings of a complete reversal of this.

It'd be nice, but I doubt it. The Republicans are unofficially split by the Tea Party, but the Democrats are just looking at the numbers: people love Obamacare when it's described as policies rather than "Obamacare," i.e. the love that people with preexisting conditions can get coverage, etc. The word "Obamacare" polls badly, but the effects are great. The Republicans made a gigantic tactical error by letting the shutdown happen too late for it to actually impact Obamacare, which was already funded and so didn't shut down with the rest of the government (i.e. the exchanges were open Monday, even though everything else was shutting down), because they now don't have a bargaining position (as the polls indicate most people recognize).

Their hand was probably forced by the timing, but I have to wonder why they picked this fight now. I suspect it was a last-ditch effort, probably combined with the echo-chamber effect that they seem to be operating under. Outright disbelief of the polls, combined with whatever the fark Boehner thinks he's doing, and the Democrats' past behavior made them think that if they held firm, the Democrats would cave without their having to make a serious offer.


Its kind of a complex perfect storm scenario.

From the base point of view,  they whipped themselves into a frenzy about how Obama was going to be a dictator and with the ACA has his signature piece of legislation, this is how he was going to do it.  The ACA (aka Obamacare) is the end of democracy, freedom, capitalism.  The barbarians are at the gates, the wolves are at the door.  The constitution is burning.  This is it.  If we want to preserve freedom and the American way of life, this is our last chance before it goes into effect and everything crumbles.

Couple this with (the legislative point of view) the fact that deep down then know that they have no ideas, or are at least scared to put anything forward lest it violate their core principles.  So, the only way to save face is to keep the other sides idea from going into effect and working.
This way, they can still sell the BSABSVR narrative.

Mix those together, since many people actually are working from both viewpoints, and you get the ultimate echo chamber failure to properly communicate with yourselves and the rest of the world.  But hey, Some men you just can't reach.  So, you get what we had here last week, which is the way they want it. Well, they get it. I don't like it any more than you
 
2013-10-05 07:51:17 PM  
The Democrat's caving in and adopting the Ryan budget, complete with sequestration, is now considered "uncompromising"?
 
2013-10-05 08:01:42 PM  

Notabunny: The Democrat's caving in and adopting the Ryan budget, complete with sequestration, is now considered "uncompromising"?


well....  they still haven't given in to all the demands.

"The shutdown could last awhile since the Tea Party is demanding the President not be black anymore."
-Andy Borowitz
 
2013-10-05 08:03:47 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)

He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.


President Obama has had his 'Popeye' moment - 'That'sk all I can stands, and I can't standsk no more!'

The Republican Blutos had better look out.
 
2013-10-05 08:10:38 PM  
The intransigence of Democrats, from Obama on down to red-state senators, has surprised the GOP. They honestly expected a few of the Democrats to crack-after all, four of them are running for re-election in states that voted for Mitt Romney. "If you're a Mark Pryor, if you're a Mary Landrieu, running for re-election in Arkansas and Louisiana, and you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, calls from your constituents, suddenly, it changes the calculus entirely."

There's the crux.  They thought the Dems would fold and when they didn't, the GOP had no backup plan.
 
2013-10-05 08:25:07 PM  

Mentat: The intransigence of Democrats, from Obama on down to red-state senators, has surprised the GOP. They honestly expected a few of the Democrats to crack-after all, four of them are running for re-election in states that voted for Mitt Romney. "If you're a Mark Pryor, if you're a Mary Landrieu, running for re-election in Arkansas and Louisiana, and you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, calls from your constituents, suddenly, it changes the calculus entirely."

There's the crux.  They thought the Dems would fold and when they didn't, the GOP had no backup plan.


It is not that they don't have a backup plan, it is that the shutdown was and is the entire plan. There never was any plan for ending it or what would happen after the shutdown or how it might be put to use. So much effort was placed on shutting down and so many people had different ideas about what it would accomplish, that nothing was acually planned.
 
2013-10-05 08:48:45 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: So how many of us have republican Reps?

Mine is in no danger of being primaried in this wealthy district, nor losing to a Dem.

Letter writing campaigns and phone call are all we have right now.


my Congressman is Republican, is at risk of being primaried as well as losing to a Dem in the general election.

my district went Obama in 2012, if the DNC didn't wait until a month before election day to spend money, a democrat would be in this seat now.
 
2013-10-05 09:17:02 PM  

ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?


Mrbooger's bridge is federally operated and it's been closed.  He's been furloughed and has a lot of free time.
 
2013-10-05 09:37:27 PM  

Hobodeluxe: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?

As much as I want those things, I don't see how that is any different than the GOP's hostage-taking.  The goal should be to eliminate the use of the shutdown or debt ceiling as a high-stakes extortion attempt altogether.

yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)


No, I think at this point that is a bad idea.  There was a point for this, but it has passed.  The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.
 
2013-10-05 09:44:06 PM  

bk3k: The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.


Thankfully, demanding absolutely nothing in negotiations is Obama's strong suit.
 
2013-10-05 09:57:45 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: bk3k: The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.

Thankfully, demanding absolutely nothing in negotiations is Obama's strong suit.


Oh, that's uncalled for. At least he's not giving shiat away for nothing as per usual.. Could it be that he has, finally, learned his lesson? One can hope for change.
 
2013-10-05 10:03:44 PM  

CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.


I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.

If the Democratic plan goes through, then we'll see exactly how 'moderate' Republicans are.  Until then, they're all cut from the same cloth.
 
2013-10-05 10:07:55 PM  

Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


You can sweat all you want but I recommend that you take a shower before you mingle with the rest of society.

/Or use some deodorant.
//Or at least change your shirt.
//You might want to shave too.
 
2013-10-05 10:31:05 PM  

Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


A man's brow sweats regardless of political affiliation.
 
2013-10-05 10:35:31 PM  

Guntram Shatterhand: CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.

I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.


I absolutely agree that Republicans love divide and conquer, but it does seem like more than a few Democrats love "combine and conquer." As in "Let's combine the long-term pain of cuts to certain social programs with immediate pain to cuts in National Parks and other things that will impact citizens forthwith." They do not say "Damn, this is a horrible situation, let's try to minimize the pain to Americans. Eventually, they will see that the cuts are bad for America, and force their Representative to fix things." Rather, they think (perhaps rightly, but never explicitly) that a hard jolt of immediate inconvenience will make Americans lobby Congress to make the pain go away.

Maybe such shenanigans are necessary, but they do seem a bit underhanded. People *will* change with long-term pain, and personal impatience isn't really a good reason to kick voters in the unmentionables.

/IMO, after three glasses of wine.
 
2013-10-05 10:43:34 PM  

CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.


the "both sides are bad" thing is getting old.
These are the guys that will still make some half ass attempt at blaming the shutdown on the democrats, and when present facts, like the letter signed by 80 congressmen signing on to this strategy, they suddenly pull out the, "yeah well both sides are bad."

And, if you push them for why the republicans are bad, they will almost always tell you some version of "for compromising with the democrats," or "for not sticking to their conservative roots" BS story.

Until a majority of moderates stand up and vocally oppose the tea party, nothing will change.  The problem is, the ones who might actually be ready to do so wont because it would mean agreeing with the democrats on something.
 
2013-10-05 10:43:46 PM  

whidbey: Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.

Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.


So what's the alternative? They give the Republicans everything they want, gain NOTHING, and get held hostage by a petulant, childish minority party...AGAIN??

It's time for Republicans to learn that ELECTIONS have CONSEQUENCES.
 
2013-10-05 10:50:51 PM  

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: So how many of us have republican Reps?

Mine is in no danger of being primaried in this wealthy district, nor losing to a Dem.

Letter writing campaigns and phone call are all we have right now.


Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.
 
2013-10-05 11:04:06 PM  

OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.


if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.
 
2013-10-05 11:17:35 PM  

zetar: Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf


Thank you for that. That was quite insightful in that it presented these folks in a somewhat compassionate manner. It acknowledged that they do believe themselves to right and that they're the 'good guys.' It does go a long way to making me realize that they can never be 'educated' into seeing the error of their ways.

I do have to wonder why they're so adamant about forbidding abortion and birth control among the non-believers.  If us heathen breed even more, these folk are just going to become a smaller minority more quickly.

(My only complaint is that the .pdf was a real strain on my eyes.)
 
2013-10-06 12:09:23 AM  

blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.


A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.
 
2013-10-06 12:22:00 AM  

OneBrightMonkey: blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.

A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.


Thanx for the link. That was a good read.
 
2013-10-06 02:11:49 AM  

Snarfangel: Guntram Shatterhand: CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.

I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.

I absolutely agree that Republicans love divide and conquer, but it does seem like more than a few Democrats love "combine and conquer." As in "Let's combine the long-term pain of cuts to certain social programs with immediate pain to cuts in National Parks and other things that will impact citizens forthwith." They do not say "Damn, this is a horrible situation, let's try to minimize the pain to Americans. Eventually, they will see that the cuts are bad for America, and force their Representative to fix things." Rather, they think (perhaps rightly, but never explicitly) that a hard jolt of immediate inconvenience will make Americans lobby Congress to make the pain go away.

Maybe such shenanigans are necessary, but they do seem a bit underhanded. People *will* change with long-term pain, and personal impatience isn't really a good reason to kick voters in the unmentionables.

/IMO, after three glasses of wine.


Hope you don't have anything pending before a Federal Court because those are unfunded too, for the most part. Sorry if there's no money for the parks, but there isn't. Thank your House Representative.
 
2013-10-06 06:15:39 AM  

geek_mars: OneBrightMonkey: blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.

A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.

Thanx for the link. That was a good read.


Seconded. The idea that the GOP's gerrymandering is becoming their undoing is rather interesting.
 
2013-10-06 08:25:23 AM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

"I will not sacrifice America. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade nations, and we fall back. They filibuster entire bills, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!"
 
2013-10-06 08:28:13 AM  

CptnSpldng: zetar: Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf

Thank you for that. That was quite insightful in that it presented these folks in a somewhat compassionate manner. It acknowledged that they do believe themselves to right and that they're the 'good guys.' It does go a long way to making me realize that they can never be 'educated' into seeing the error of their ways.

I do have to wonder why they're so adamant about forbidding abortion and birth control among the non-believers.  If us heathen breed even more, these folk are just going to become a smaller minority more quickly.

(My only complaint is that the .pdf was a real strain on my eyes.)


One of the surprises for me was that the GOP can't comprehend helping people (like with health insurance) because it's the decent thing to do. They are adamant that it's just a ploy to lock in 'addicted' voters.
 
2013-10-06 11:55:08 AM  

StopLurkListen: "Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.


Don't discount it just because a bunch of idiots in business schools were championing it at one point.
 
2013-10-06 12:27:46 PM  

zetar: One of the surprises for me was that the GOP can't comprehend helping people (like with health insurance) because it's the decent thing to do. They are adamant that it's just a ploy to lock in 'addicted' voters.


They see EVERYTHING as being about votes, spin and political victories.  To them everything is about winning elections, about gaining power.

They don't care about people, just money and power.  They can't comprehend the idea of elected officials trying to do what is best for the people, they only see it as the other side trying to pander to voters for votes.
 
2013-10-06 01:01:15 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?

Not only no... but hell no


Where I live, 10am is called "kick-off."
 
2013-10-06 01:11:57 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)

He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.


images.politico.com"We will NOT negotiate with idiots."

 
2013-10-06 01:13:22 PM  
Damn.... first time posting from a Macbook. Is the formatting different/buggy for macs?
 
2013-10-06 03:36:51 PM  

DeltaPunch: Damn.... first time posting from a Macbook. Is the formatting different/buggy for macs?


Shouldn't be.
 
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