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(Slate)   When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?   (slate.com) divider line 182
    More: Interesting, Delaware Democratic Party, GOP, Democrats, humans, Rep. Jim McDermott, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, health insurance mandate, Democratic Coalition  
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4330 clicks; posted to Politics » on 05 Oct 2013 at 1:31 PM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



182 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-10-05 10:04:32 AM
Simple- when the GOP kept pushing them until their heels were on the edge of the cliff.
 
2013-10-05 10:22:00 AM
FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.
 
2013-10-05 10:40:02 AM
What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?
 
2013-10-05 11:13:07 AM
When the GOP started trying to change the way the government operates?
 
2013-10-05 11:13:48 AM

Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?


Politics entails compromise, which to feeble minds can appear as weakness.
 
2013-10-05 11:19:23 AM
2010 happened - pretty much every blue dog lost in that election (which was about as predictable as the sun shining, since blue dogs are dumb as fark). What was left over was a more liberal caucus.
 
2013-10-05 11:27:24 AM

Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?


10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?
 
2013-10-05 11:43:25 AM
We Democrats have always had solid spines. We just pick our battles wisely and are will to compromise to get the better good done for all.

If we were just black and white, absolutely binary in our decision processes, we'd be Republicans.
 
2013-10-05 11:58:52 AM
there is no choice anymore - the GOP is on a death ride and going to destroy the country. the Democrats actually like the country and don't feel like destroying themselves along with the Republicans.  so...if your choice is cake or death, the DNC picked cake.
 
2013-10-05 12:03:30 PM

Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is.



You sound CONCERNED.
 
2013-10-05 12:08:21 PM
the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....
 
2013-10-05 12:08:50 PM
FTFA: Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't?

A prescient question,
 
2013-10-05 12:10:55 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


That's why I rarely curse at work, because when I do, people take notice, and it's because I'm truly farking pissed about something.
 
2013-10-05 12:13:47 PM

Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....


Because it's such a stupidly easy point to argue? It pretty much argues itself. I've been battling people for a week now, wherever I can. This morning I've been on Rep. Steve Stockman's page...
 
2013-10-05 12:14:51 PM

Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....


Look at it this way -- the argument that the shutdown being entirely Obama's fault is not convincing the people who use Facebook and don't pay too much attention to politics.
 
2013-10-05 12:19:06 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


Meh. Politicians have been swearing for decades. It's just that the print media are too delicate to put it out there. Online sites have no such restrictions, so you get more of the juice.
 
2013-10-05 12:24:34 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.



McDermott is a badass.  I absolutely believe he said that.  I am proud that he is my Representative.
 
2013-10-05 12:47:05 PM

ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?


Not only no... but hell no
 
2013-10-05 12:54:02 PM

Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....


I too have noticed a lot of people that normally have nothing to do with politics shaking their heads and wondering what the hell is wrong with the GOP.  The right wing derp appears to be bouncing off of normal people.
 
2013-10-05 01:18:33 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....

I too have noticed a lot of people that normally have nothing to do with politics shaking their heads and wondering what the hell is wrong with the GOP.  The right wing derp appears to be bouncing off of normal people.


I honestly don't know if that bodes well for the future or not.  One thing is for sure tho - the GOP standard issue propaganda isn't playing well outside of the echo chamber.  so that's making me feel a bit better about the situation
 
2013-10-05 01:33:38 PM
If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.
 
2013-10-05 01:34:11 PM

Somacandra: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is.

You sound CONCERNED.


You don't understand "concern trolling". I'm not arguing for Democrats to have spines rather for Democrats to stop deluding themselves over the tenacious tactics their leadership employs. It's annoying as all hell.

Democrats lie so easily to each other that lying to themselves just comes naturally I suppose.
 
2013-10-05 01:35:29 PM
They still have plenty of time to capitulate.  Let's hope they don't
 
2013-10-05 01:37:15 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


Would you say...it's a big farking deal?
 
2013-10-05 01:37:29 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


That's my congressman. But for his being a bit of a lapdog for Big Pharma, he's pretty great. I got to sit down and have a beer with him once, and I found him to be smart, funny, thoughtful, and committed to representing his constituents to the best of his ability. And it doesn't surprise me at all that he said that.
 
2013-10-05 01:38:40 PM

FloydA: raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


McDermott is a badass.  I absolutely believe he said that.  I am proud that he is my Representative.


He's my rep too. He's 200 years old and awesome.
 
2013-10-05 01:41:33 PM
The funny thing about making a bunch of deep-red districts, is you pack in so much red into those districts that you also make a bunch of deep-blue districts as well.
 
2013-10-05 01:42:37 PM

ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?


You drunk bro??
 
2013-10-05 01:42:38 PM
When they finally realized the extremist wing of the GOP is truly insane and in control of the party?
 
2013-10-05 01:44:59 PM

Mad Tea Party: If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.


If Obamacare fails a few years from now, yet millions of people DO get health insurance for a time, we may see a push for exactly that.

/ I have no idea how we would handle the shrinking of the health insurance industry
// IIRC, it's 16% of our GDP; lots of laid off salespeople & office workers in the future, I think..
/// still, I'll play the world's tiniest violin for corporations like Cigna and UnitedHealth
 
2013-10-05 01:46:03 PM
This was the perfectly WORST fight for the GOP to choose.

They gave Democrats no room to retreat, the Democrats lose nothing by fighting, and the GOP offered Democrats nothing in return for a surrender (or partial surrender),

So what would ANY opponent do in the similar situation? Fight like your political life depended on it.

...

"Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.

ericwongmma.com
 
2013-10-05 01:46:22 PM
The derp is coming from people who are in gerrymandered districts and guaranteed re-election. The GOP members that aren't are starting to get worried.

Davis for Texas! Once Texas goes blue, the GOP is history.
 
2013-10-05 01:46:27 PM
I don't know, but it should've happened a long time ago. Better late than never, I suppose.

Mrbogey: Somacandra: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is.

You sound CONCERNED.

You don't understand "concern trolling". I'm not arguing for Democrats to have spines rather for Democrats to stop deluding themselves over the tenacious tactics their leadership employs. It's annoying as all hell.

Democrats lie so easily to each other that lying to themselves just comes naturally I suppose.


cdn.crushable.com

You are a pathetic person. Just so you know.
 
2013-10-05 01:47:17 PM
Stand up to a loudmouthed bully, break their nose, then watch them go wailing back to mamma.
 
2013-10-05 01:48:43 PM
I think the GOP miscalculated. They thought that their sycophants would hang tight even if they got hit with furloughs and services denied. They thought the power of their messaging would keep the bubble intact.  Au contraire. A lot of teabaggers are starting to feel the pinch. And even they don't want the govt to default. Sure they'd love to beat the Dems. But a lot of them have checked out the insurance exchanges and saw where they could save some bucks. or maybe they can get coverage now where they couldn't before. Every day that number increases and the lies about the ACA are being revealed before their very eyes.   Reality always wins in the end. It may take time but it's unavoidable.
 
2013-10-05 01:49:34 PM

Zeno-25: Stand up to a loudmouthed bully, break their nose, then watch them go wailing back to mamma.


GOP/Tea Party = Eric Cartman
 
2013-10-05 01:51:20 PM

Mrbogey: Democrats lie so easily to each other that lying to themselves just comes naturally I suppose.


I picture an old church lady saying this, while pursing her lips in a completely-uninformed-but-convinced-she's-correct sort of way.
 
2013-10-05 01:52:45 PM

Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?


lol
 
2013-10-05 01:53:52 PM
They learned that letting them 'cry it out' is an effective form of parenting a small child.
 
2013-10-05 01:54:30 PM

AspectRatio: FloydA: raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


McDermott is a badass.  I absolutely believe he said that.  I am proud that he is my Representative.

He's my rep too. He's 200 years old and awesome.


He was one of my best friend's shrink way back in the '70's, she hated him.  But, you're right he has been awesome for our state.
 
2013-10-05 01:58:59 PM

Zeno-25: Stand up to a loudmouthed bully, break their nose, then watch them go wailing back to mamma.


I prefer to think the Democratic turn-around went a little like this.
 
2013-10-05 01:59:26 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


I love my state.
 
2013-10-05 02:00:45 PM
A lot of people don't seem to realize how unprecedented this Republican stunt really is. We've had government shutdowns over policy before, but it was almost always over a REAL negotiation where both sides had something to offer. In this case, the Republicans have demanded the overturning of the Democrats' most signature legislation from the past decade, and return for this they've offered F*CKING NOTHING. It's insane.

THAT'S why the Dems finally grew a spine, and THAT'S why this has been compared to extortion and hostage taking, because that's exactly what this f*cking is. I've already decided I'm never voting for any Republican again for the rest of my life, but I suspect this has convinced more than a few other people to do the same. It's unforgivable. YOU F*CKING LOST.
 
2013-10-05 02:01:04 PM

Mrbogey: It's annoying as all hell.


i.imgur.com

Bless your heart.
 
2013-10-05 02:02:30 PM
I wouldn't say that they grew a spine moreso than they are now more united than ever.

GOP gave pretty much every Democrat a common enemy by their actions

Those who were passive are now rather active because they are pretty damn angry
 
2013-10-05 02:03:30 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

Politics entails compromise, which to feeble minds can appear as weakness.


When you compromise with a party that pulls stunts like this, it is weakness. In fact, it's Chamberlain-level appeasement.
 
2013-10-05 02:05:10 PM

Mrbogey: impaler: I have you favorited as "lying scum"

Project more Republican

And I can guarantee that you won't actually have a link to support the claim I'm lying.

You liar.


You really are Republican.

"Democrats lie so easily to each other that lying to themselves just comes naturally I suppose."

I said you were projecting, not lying. You are a liar though.

Want a link, Republican?

Republicans lying so easily to each other
 
2013-10-05 02:05:28 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: Mad Tea Party: If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.

If Obamacare fails a few years from now, yet millions of people DO get health insurance for a time, we may see a push for exactly that.

/ I have no idea how we would handle the shrinking of the health insurance industry
// IIRC, it's 16% of our GDP; lots of laid off salespeople & office workers in the future, I think..
/// still, I'll play the world's tiniest violin for corporations like Cigna and UnitedHealth


It's very simple:

In a few years, once the exchanges have settled upon the few huge companies that will cover the majority of the ACA-related healthcare for those millions of people, you simply have them co-opted by the government directly.

They maintain the infrastructure, but lop off the top half of the executive system and send the bills directly to the government.  Absorb the infrastructure into the Medicare system and give the Executives a golden parachute and one-time payoff to go away.

Tada, Obamacare becomes Medicare.
 
2013-10-05 02:06:12 PM

shower_in_my_socks: A lot of people don't seem to realize how unprecedented this Republican stunt really is. We've had government shutdowns over policy before, but it was almost always over a REAL negotiation where both sides had something to offer. In this case, the Republicans have demanded the overturning of the Democrats' most signature legislation from the past decade, and return for this they've offered F*CKING NOTHING. It's insane.

THAT'S why the Dems finally grew a spine, and THAT'S why this has been compared to extortion and hostage taking, because that's exactly what this f*cking is. I've already decided I'm never voting for any Republican again for the rest of my life, but I suspect this has convinced more than a few other people to do the same. It's unforgivable. YOU F*CKING LOST.


Word.
 
2013-10-05 02:06:40 PM

whistleridge: raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.

Meh. Politicians have been swearing for decades. It's just that the print media are too delicate to put it out there. Online sites have no such restrictions, so you get more of the juice.


Behind closed doors, everyone swears.  It is, and should be, notable when you swear in public.
 
2013-10-05 02:09:20 PM

IlGreven: whistleridge: raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.

Meh. Politicians have been swearing for decades. It's just that the print media are too delicate to put it out there. Online sites have no such restrictions, so you get more of the juice.

Behind closed doors, everyone swears.  It is, and should be, notable when you swear in public.


From Cheynes "farking asshole" and Biden's "big farking deal", I think its pretty much obvious that no one cares when politicians swear
 
2013-10-05 02:10:08 PM

IlGreven: Behind closed doors, everyone swears.  It is, and should be, notable when you swear in public.


paulfite.files.wordpress.com

Go fark yourself.
 
2013-10-05 02:16:13 PM

raerae1980: FTA: Washington Rep. Jim McDermott after voting no on one of Thursday's GOP bills. "You can't deal with 'em. This mess was created by the Republicans for one purpose, and they lost. People in my district are calling in for Obamacare-affordable health care-in large numbers. These guys have lost, and they can't figure out how to admit it." Why would House Democrats give away what the Supreme Court and the 2012 electorate didn't? "You can't say, OK, you get half of Obamacare-this isn't a Solomonic decision," McDermott said. "So we sit here until they figure out they farkin' lost."


I can't believe he said that.  Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly.   It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents.   In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


Congressional Dems should swear more often when describing TPers.
 
2013-10-05 02:20:39 PM
"When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine" - as much as that is a good question, I am just glad to finally see it happen.  I was happy enough with Obama's "you get nothing" speech but things are getting better and better.

More people - even politically casual people - are learning what the GOP really is now.  I think 2014 is gonna be a good year despite the gerrymandered districts.  I do believe we need a party to counter the Democrats, but the GOTP just simply needs destroyed completely.  Either they are destroyed, or America will be (by their hands).
 
2013-10-05 02:22:04 PM

Hobodeluxe: I think the GOP miscalculated. They thought that their sycophants would hang tight even if they got hit with furloughs and services denied. They thought the power of their messaging would keep the bubble intact. Au contraire. A lot of teabaggers are starting to feel the pinch. And even they don't want the govt to default. Sure they'd love to beat the Dems. But a lot of them have checked out the insurance exchanges and saw where they could save some bucks. or maybe they can get coverage now where they couldn't before. Every day that number increases and the lies about the ACA are being revealed before their very eyes. Reality always wins in the end. It may take time but it's unavoidable.


This is the party of unskewed polls and sending the leggy blonde down to verify with the math guys that, yes, President Obama did indeed win Ohio and the election. They're still clinging to the Reagan myth, still believing that somehow it'll turn into 1980 or 1994 or 2004 or even 2010 when they firmly believe the American people rose up behind the great Reagan Revolution.

Of course they're miscalculating. They've been miscalculating since 1994, if not earlier, what's to stop them from doing so now?
 
2013-10-05 02:25:24 PM
Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?
 
2013-10-05 02:25:30 PM
It's delicious watching the Republican Party continue to eat itself. Omnomnom.
 
2013-10-05 02:25:33 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....

I too have noticed a lot of people that normally have nothing to do with politics shaking their heads and wondering what the hell is wrong with the GOP.  The right wing derp appears to be bouncing off of normal people.


I'm sure that if they just punish us some more, we'll all come around to their way of "thinking".
 
2013-10-05 02:26:05 PM

DamnYankees: 2010 happened - pretty much every blue dog lost in that election (which was about as predictable as the sun shining, since blue dogs are dumb as fark). What was left over was a more liberal caucus.


If only those Blue Dogs had a clue........

i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-10-05 02:26:16 PM
As I said to my friend the other day, I'm calling the 2016 election for whichever Democrat denounces bipartisanship first.

Now's the time for Dem.s to let the balls hang out. Not taking advantage of the Republicans clusterfarkapalooza would be the worst thing the could do. ...well, apart from not cleaning up the R-tards' mess that is.
 
2013-10-05 02:27:14 PM

CPennypacker: It's delicious watching the Republican Party continue to eat itself. Omnomnom.


I just hope we can limit the damage they do on their slide downwards into madness and impotent rage.
 
2013-10-05 02:29:34 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Of course they're miscalculating. They've been miscalculating since 1994, if not earlier, what's to stop them from doing so now?


On that you are dead wrong.  They are not miscalculating anything because they are not calculating anything in the first place!  They don't need to calculate.  Calculation is math, which is akin to science.  They do not need these tools of Satan when they have FAITH.  They believe, and that is all they need.

LOL
 
2013-10-05 02:30:58 PM

StopLurkListen: This was the perfectly WORST fight for the GOP to choose.

They gave Democrats no room to retreat, the Democrats lose nothing by fighting, and the GOP offered Democrats nothing in return for a surrender (or partial surrender),

So what would ANY opponent do in the similar situation? Fight like your political life depended on it.

...

"Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.


Or they can sit there in tranquil meditation until their opponent dies from starvation or their camp-followers cannibalize them.

Or, if someone pushes you to the cliff, you move out of the way and let them merrily tis themselves off it.
 
2013-10-05 02:33:27 PM
They have to push back because the GOP will never agree to a budget and just use the expiration of CRs to pass their entire agenda every few months.
 
2013-10-05 02:38:45 PM

mispelled username: They have to push back because the GOP will never agree to a budget and just use the expiration of CRs to pass their entire agenda every few months.


Which is why they are breaking the GOP now. This is the temper tantrum in the grocery store, with the whole world watching. "I told you you are not getting that toy. If you keep acting like this, I am going to cancel your birthday".
 
2013-10-05 02:43:49 PM
When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.
 
2013-10-05 02:46:39 PM

whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.


No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.
 
2013-10-05 02:49:56 PM
Btw.

LADEE's lunar orbit insertion maneuver on track for early tomorrow morning, US time. But NASA cannot officially communicate its outcome.
 
2013-10-05 02:50:13 PM
When they saw a way to screw over America in order to gain power.
 
2013-10-05 02:52:47 PM
I just wanted to say that since this things been going on for a few days now, the moderates in my area are getting riled up and taking to local news sites and and stuff to shout down the usual bevy of far right commenters blaming everything on Obama.  Of course, there is like 5000 people furloughed here right now because of it and a whole lot more that might not be getting paid in a few weeks, so that might have an effect.

I have to say, it's nice to see well reasoned comments for once rather than the usual.
 
2013-10-05 02:53:40 PM

Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?



I'll give you a snark-free opinion on this -- I think it comes down to how the two major parties tend to attract different psychological types. I expect a majority of fair-minded, go-along-get-along types find a home with the Democrats. No hard data to back this up but I also think that members of our team are more likely to be analytical and introspective. Compare that to the Repubs who stereotypically "know" all sorts of "truths" and don't spend a lot of time thinking about tweaking their ideas to get better results because, hey, they can't possibly be any more perfect than they already are. Also try not to think of 'libs' as a monolithic bloc with identical pet peeves and opinions. Some Democrats complaining about weak leadership doesn't imply all Democrats are.

If there's any truth at all to any of that it makes sense that my people are going to whine about spinelessness once in a while. Sometimes our guys will start out by giving up some ground just for the sake of appearing reasonable, before any negotiation's even begun. (Example, most of Obama's first Presidential term, q.v.) So behavior like that's going to frustrate people who'd like to win once in a while, y'know? And those of us who value dispassionate observation as a means to discovering what's really going on aren't going to ignore things that are staring us in the face just so we can pretend to feel better.

Does that make any sense?
 
2013-10-05 02:53:52 PM

Mrbogey: Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.


fark me, you're phoning it in today. I don't even want to give you a pity argument. There's no substance. There isn't even anything to get annoyed by. You're bringing out rice cakes of trolling. I never thought I'd feel bad about a troll not doing his job well, but... this is just lame.
 
2013-10-05 02:54:50 PM

randomjsa: When they saw a way to screw over America in order to gain power.


well yes, but that's the GOP for you.
 
2013-10-05 02:55:18 PM

Weaver95: Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?


I'll believe it when they actually break the House Republicans.  Until then, I'll be expecting the usual jellyfish outcome.
 
2013-10-05 02:55:37 PM

Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.


Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.
 
2013-10-05 02:57:33 PM

DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Weaver95: Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?

I'll believe it when they actually break the House Republicans.  Until then, I'll be expecting the usual jellyfish outcome.


I think even the most spineless, craven Democrats realize that this is the point where if they cave they will never wield political power again. Even if they stay in office and in the majority, the precedent will have been set that Republicans can use budget and debt ceiling tactics to demand anything they want.
 
2013-10-05 02:59:20 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: / I have no idea how we would handle the shrinking of the health insurance industry
// IIRC, it's 16% of our GDP; lots of laid off salespeople & office workers in the future, I think..


We invest and grow the economy in other ways.  If we were more forward-thinking, that would have been included in Obamacare, as I think we're going to see a downsizing of the insurance industry now that it is being made more straightforward.
 
2013-10-05 03:00:13 PM

raerae1980: I can't believe he said that. Sorry, I'm not used to hearing my politicians swear so openly. It's the same feeling I get when I hear it from my parents. In other words, he must be very pissed off/angry to express himself like that.


For one of the few times in my life, I am proud of someone I voted for.   I mean honest to god, I want to shake that man's hand.
 
2013-10-05 03:01:11 PM
The GOP's "negotiating position" has turned into a suicide pact.  There's absolutely no incentive to placate them anymore.
 
2013-10-05 03:04:07 PM

Infernalist: Forbidden Doughnut: Mad Tea Party: If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.

If Obamacare fails a few years from now, yet millions of people DO get health insurance for a time, we may see a push for exactly that.

/ I have no idea how we would handle the shrinking of the health insurance industry
// IIRC, it's 16% of our GDP; lots of laid off salespeople & office workers in the future, I think..
/// still, I'll play the world's tiniest violin for corporations like Cigna and UnitedHealth

It's very simple:

In a few years, once the exchanges have settled upon the few huge companies that will cover the majority of the ACA-related healthcare for those millions of people, you simply have them co-opted by the government directly.

They maintain the infrastructure, but lop off the top half of the executive system and send the bills directly to the government.  Absorb the infrastructure into the Medicare system and give the Executives a golden parachute and one-time payoff to go away.

Tada, Obamacare becomes Medicare.




Tea Party members LOVE Medicare.
 
2013-10-05 03:04:57 PM

Bloody William: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Weaver95: Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?

I'll believe it when they actually break the House Republicans.  Until then, I'll be expecting the usual jellyfish outcome.

I think even the most spineless, craven Democrats realize that this is the point where if they cave they will never wield political power again. Even if they stay in office and in the majority, the precedent will have been set that Republicans can use budget and debt ceiling tactics to demand anything they want.


This is entirely about 'control' of the legislative branch, my friend.  The GOP has spent the last 3 years wasting the time of the Congress with 40+ repeals of Obamacare that they know will die in the Senate and now that Obamacare is a reality, they're trying to undo that with hostage tactics.

In short, they're a bunch of losers who refuse to realize that they lost and lost big.

If the Democrats capitulate on this(and they won't), they can expect the same tactic to be used every time a CR is needed.

That's why the Democrats are breaking the GOP in this.  To teach them a hard lesson in reality-based decision making.
 
2013-10-05 03:06:31 PM

whidbey: Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.

Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.


The GOP thanks you for this opinion.

Rile up the base and exhaust your opponent!
 
2013-10-05 03:08:44 PM

randomjsa: When they saw a way to screw over America in order to gain power.


And who presented this with this "way."

This might be a good time for you to sit back and really ask yourself if this strategy that the GOP came up with is good for the country, or themselves in the long run.

And even if you think that it is worth it to get rid of the Affordable Care Act.   Then consider this.
If you are so scared of the Democrats gaining power, is it worth a futile act to attempt to get rid of ACA, if that effort not only fails, but then is able to end up helping those evil democrats retake control of the house and gain more power.

Trust me, even Machiavelli is have conniption fits in his grave right now.
 
2013-10-05 03:10:17 PM
When the public universally recognized the GOP's only goal in the shutdown was media promotion and the Republicans themselves couldn't agree on a talking point. Shutdown vs. 'Slimdown', 'Democrats won't negotiate' vs. 'we can't compromise our values', 'standing up to wasteful government' vs. 'Obama shut down the WWII memorial'. They might as well hold up those signs from 'They Live' with a message like, "HATE OBAMA: NO SPECIFIC REASON".

Once Ted Cruz stole the attention with his fake filibuster it was more or less a race for Republicans to put their face in front of the camera instead of doing their jobs. They got lazy, assumed right-wing media could handle the spin and everyone saw right through it.

Democrats, meanwhile, got the kind of lockstep outrage support conservatives take for granted and they decided to act like Republicans. And like all wimps who've won their first fistfight they've found that there's some merit to violence and bullying.
 
2013-10-05 03:11:39 PM

bk3k: I do believe we need a party to counter the Democrats, but the GOTP just simply needs destroyed completely. Either they are destroyed, or America will be (by their hands).


The current setup will guarantee a second party shows up eventually. It'll just result from a split in the first one. See also: the Era of Good Feelings. The Federalists were obliterated after a blown short-sell of the War of 1812, and it was about 10 years of one-party rule before the Democrat/Republican split.
 
2013-10-05 03:15:29 PM

DamnYankees: 2010 happened - pretty much every blue dog lost in that election (which was about as predictable as the sun shining, since blue dogs are dumb as fark). What was left over was a more liberal caucus.


Wait, I thought 2010 was because teabaggers voted out all the libby libs?
 
2013-10-05 03:17:17 PM

SixPaperJoint: whidbey: Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.

Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.

The GOP thanks you for this opinion.

Rile up the base and exhaust your opponent!


Yeah well it still farking sucks. I can't wait until 2016 when we either have another near-win from another creepy right-winger running for the Presidency again because my fellow Americans are so farking cynical and dense. Or god knows, a full blown win because "hurr both sides durr." Yeah I'm a bit pissed. Deal with it.
 
2013-10-05 03:21:26 PM
The White House and the Democratic party have decided to draw the line at allowing the Republicans to use extortion as a means to drive policy. The Republicans are attempting to undermine the democratic process and are willing to hurt the American people to grab power. The Republicans are attempting to pull off a coup, overthrow democracy in America and replace it with a cultural hegemony. They must be stopped.
 
2013-10-05 03:21:55 PM

whidbey: Yeah well it still farking sucks. I can't wait until 2016 when we either have another near-win from another creepy right-winger running for the Presidency again because my fellow Americans are so farking cynical and dense. Or god knows, a full blown win because "hurr both sides durr." Yeah I'm a bit pissed. Deal with it.


Well, it'll always kind of be like that because the structure of the race ensures it'll almost always be a one-on-one showdown in November. The way it's set up, you're always going to have a narrative of 'Candidate X is the only thing standing between Candidate Y and the White House'.
 
2013-10-05 03:26:22 PM
Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?
 
2013-10-05 03:27:38 PM

whidbey: SixPaperJoint: whidbey: Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.

Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.

The GOP thanks you for this opinion.

Rile up the base and exhaust your opponent!

Yeah well it still farking sucks. I can't wait until 2016 when we either have another near-win from another creepy right-winger running for the Presidency again because my fellow Americans are so farking cynical and dense. Or god knows, a full blown win because "hurr both sides durr." Yeah I'm a bit pissed. Deal with it.


I am so confused right now.
 
2013-10-05 03:28:52 PM

red5ish: The White House and the Democratic party have decided to draw the line at allowing the Republicans to use extortion as a means to drive policy. The Republicans are attempting to undermine the democratic process and are willing to hurt the American people to grab power. The Republicans are attempting to pull off a coup, overthrow democracy in America and replace it with a cultural hegemony. They must be stopped.


See, this was another aspect of the gigantic tactical mistake. The hostage they took wound up not even being the #1 priority of those they're extracting demands from. The GOP figured that this was going to be, 'what is a mere healthcare reform law when compared with the full faith and credit of the US government?' What they don't get is that the Dems are actually thinking, 'what is the mere full faith and credit of the US government when compared with our very democracy?'
 
2013-10-05 03:29:14 PM

cman: I wouldn't say that they grew a spine moreso than they are now more united than ever.

GOP gave pretty much every Democrat a common enemy by their actions

Those who were passive are now rather active because they are pretty damn angry


I think you pretty much nailed it.
There is the old saying (think it goes to Clinton) that "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

Since at least the seventies, the weakness of the democrats has always been their lack of unity, while the strength of the GOP has been their unity.


I think we are seeing the beginnings of a complete reversal of this.
 
2013-10-05 03:31:23 PM

Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?


As much as I want those things, I don't see how that is any different than the GOP's hostage-taking.  The goal should be to eliminate the use of the shutdown or debt ceiling as a high-stakes extortion attempt altogether.
 
2013-10-05 03:33:13 PM
When all they had to do was stand their while the GOP destroyed itself from the inside.
 
2013-10-05 03:34:02 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?

As much as I want those things, I don't see how that is any different than the GOP's hostage-taking.  The goal should be to eliminate the use of the shutdown or debt ceiling as a high-stakes extortion attempt altogether.


yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)
 
2013-10-05 03:37:39 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?

As much as I want those things, I don't see how that is any different than the GOP's hostage-taking.  The goal should be to eliminate the use of the shutdown or debt ceiling as a high-stakes extortion attempt altogether.



Yeah, that would be legitimizing the tactic.  Have to keep in mind the right's tendency to take tu quoque as an unspoken policy platform: if the Dems do it even once, at any time in history, under any circumstances, it becomes permissible for the GOP to do it whenever they feel like it; and any objection based on ramifications or context is dismissable as hypocricy.

The tactic itself needs its balls cut off here, not (just) the Republican party.
 
2013-10-05 03:38:15 PM

Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)


He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.
 
2013-10-05 03:42:24 PM

Bloody William: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Weaver95: Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?

I'll believe it when they actually break the House Republicans.  Until then, I'll be expecting the usual jellyfish outcome.

I think even the most spineless, craven Democrats realize that this is the point where if they cave they will never wield political power again. Even if they stay in office and in the majority, the precedent will have been set that Republicans can use budget and debt ceiling tactics to demand anything they want.


Bingo. This is a tactic that has to be stopped and neutered or our government is completely dysfunctional forever. And thankfully Obama isn't the person the Republicans make him out to be, because then he would just look for a solution that involved doing an end run around Congress, and pointing out how smoothly the government operates when they aren't involved.

If we don't stop this bullshiat now, that will be the endgame for some power hungry son of a biatch.
 
2013-10-05 03:44:04 PM

Bloody William: rice cakes of trolling


hehe, awesome.
 
2013-10-05 03:49:57 PM
The Democrats know they will likely face a GOP house majority at least until 2022. The GOP has made it clear that they will use every budget vote and debt ceiling limit vote to demand large and unrelated concessions, essentially running the country from a slim majority of one half of congress, regardless of Senate majorities or who sits in the White House. The Democrats can either stand firm today or concede the next decade of policy to the far right tea party.
 
2013-10-05 03:50:14 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)

He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.


nah I think their heads would asplode. their only tactic now is saying "he wont negotiate"  and while it's not really gaining any traction despite the media repeating it w/o questioning it's validity it would not only put them in an awkward spot but demonstrate to them that 1. two can play your little game and 2. just how undemocratic it is for them to do this. He can do this and explain to the public why. It exposes their extortion for what it is. they can't cry foul when he's using their tactics.
 
2013-10-05 03:51:28 PM

Target Builder: The Democrats know they will likely face a GOP house majority at least until 2022. The GOP has made it clear that they will use every budget vote and debt ceiling limit vote to demand large and unrelated concessions, essentially running the country from a slim majority of one half of congress, regardless of Senate majorities or who sits in the White House. The Democrats can either stand firm today or concede the next decade of policy to the far right tea party.


And this is why they're united.  They perceive themselves, and the country, on the edge of a cliff over an abyss that can never be climbed out of.

The GOP is doomed.
 
2013-10-05 04:01:51 PM

Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.


I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.
 
2013-10-05 04:06:17 PM

Weaver95: the GOP talking point about this being all Obama's fault is still being pushed by the rank and file...but I see it getting destroyed over and over and over on facebook by people who normally avoid politics like the plague.  I'm not sure what to think about that development....


That's about the only point I'll engage people on right now. I have a lot of Conservative/Christian friends whose opinions differ markedly from mine. These are good people whom I otherwise genuinely like, so I try not to point out how wrong they are, but the minute the shutdown gets blamed on Obama...ugh.

Regardless of your political leanings, the shutdown is squarely and objectively Congress's fault. Legally, the President can't do anything until some sort of a bill makes it to his desk. On this point there can be no debate. READ YOUR GODDAMN POCKET CONSTITUTIONS, PEOPLE!!1!

Sorry. Sometimes I can't help myself.
 
2013-10-05 04:06:30 PM

Hobodeluxe: they can't cry foul when he's using their tactics.


Have you been in a coma since Jan 20, 2009?  All they want in the world is for him to sink to their level.  It does nothing but legitimizes their behavior, and accomplishes nothing else.  It's an awful idea.
 
2013-10-05 04:06:33 PM

whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.


Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?
 
2013-10-05 04:10:15 PM

whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.


Huh?  That's like saying it's the bottom of the seventh inning and Team A is up by 12 points over Team B and you're sitting in the stands saying, "as long as they're still on field, there's no indication Team A is fighting for shiat".
The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?
 
2013-10-05 04:10:42 PM

Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


Let me guess: Help help you are being oppressed.
 
2013-10-05 04:10:53 PM
Republicans also gave the Dems no reason not to fight.  Kill bin Laden?  The GOP is outraged .  Get Russia to destroy Syria's chemical weapons?  The GOP is outraged.  Pass a bill that could create job?   The GOP is outraged.  If everything you do results in a GOP is outrage then you may as well stand and fight because negotiations and giving a little to get a little has no value.
 
2013-10-05 04:11:58 PM

Forbidden Doughnut: Mad Tea Party: If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.

If Obamacare fails a few years from now, yet millions of people DO get health insurance for a time, we may see a push for exactly that.

/ I have no idea how we would handle the shrinking of the health insurance industry
// IIRC, it's 16% of our GDP; lots of laid off salespeople & office workers in the future, I think..
/// still, I'll play the world's tiniest violin for corporations like Cigna and UnitedHealth


Sadly we'll probably wrap Cigna and UnitedHealth into it. We will hire them both as contractors to devise the singlepayer system. They will make it complicated and obtuse, in much the same way IBM,etc did when they were no longer singlehandedly running our federal computer systems. Over time things will be wenched back from them, but it will take a long long time,
 
2013-10-05 04:13:23 PM

Target Builder: Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


Part-time minimum-wage for flipping burgers, and going home to a shiatty apartment that's barely weatherproof where the heat doesn't work? Yeah, he's entitled to that. If he happens to look around and realize "Hey, I'm getting screwed here!" then he's an un-American socialist.

Getting cancer in the US means bankruptcy unless you're wealthy. We're the only first-world country where this is true.
 
2013-10-05 04:13:50 PM

Muta: Republicans also gave the Dems no reason not to fight.  Kill bin Laden?  The GOP is outraged .  Get Russia to destroy Syria's chemical weapons?  The GOP is outraged.  Pass a bill that could create job?   The GOP is outraged.  If everything you do results in a GOP is outrage then you may as well stand and fight because negotiations and giving a little to get a little has no value.


Of course. They want to be the party in power. Everything is going to "outrage" them.
 
2013-10-05 04:14:00 PM

Muta: Republicans also gave the Dems no reason not to fight.  Kill bin Laden?  The GOP is outraged .  Get Russia to destroy Syria's chemical weapons?  The GOP is outraged.  Pass a bill that could create job?   The GOP is outraged.  If everything you do results in a GOP is outrage then you may as well stand and fight because negotiations and giving a little to get a little has no value.


THIS
 
2013-10-05 04:16:35 PM

eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?


The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.
 
2013-10-05 04:20:08 PM

whidbey: eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?

The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.


All you need is 17 Republicans to pass a clean CR, and there are already indications that there are more than enough members willing to do this.  The question is whether Boehner will crack or if Obama will somehow give up his signature piece of legislation and legacy.  I'm betting the drunk will fold first.
 
2013-10-05 04:28:05 PM

Target Builder: The Democrats know they will likely face a GOP house majority at least until 2022. The GOP has made it clear that they will use every budget vote and debt ceiling limit vote to demand large and unrelated concessions, essentially running the country from a slim majority of one half of congress, regardless of Senate majorities or who sits in the White House. The Democrats can either stand firm today or concede the next decade of policy to the far right tea party.


It's not just a decade of policy.
It's worse than that.
The Democrats recognize that the Republicans are attempting to subvert the democratic process upon which the USA was founded. The Republican's attempt at extortion is only the most recent and widely publicized move on the Republican's part. It will and must be rejected.

Some of their other tactics are the purging of voter lists, the voter ID laws, limiting polling hours and days, the Redmap gerrymandering project, the assault on unions, it's a long list.

During the last Presidential election even the most neutral of observers in the press were shaking their heads over the sheer audacity and frequency of lies told by the Republican candidates and that goes on to this day, supported by the well funded propaganda arm of the GOP which is Fox News.

Fortunately for America, the GOP's base includes the fundamentalist religious right and the radical, bat shiat crazy Tea Bagger movement (lots of overlap) and those guys don't know how to be patient or subtle. Their attempt to use extortion to dictate policy is obvious and their willingness to hurt Americans and lie about what they are doing is ridiculously transparent. They have made a huge error in attempting such a blatant move to overthrow the democratic process. It will be a huge set back for them, and it may prove to be their undoing.
 
2013-10-05 04:33:28 PM

Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?


My opinion as well. The Democrats need to make their own counter offer. Want to get rid of Obamacare? Sure. In exchange for a Single Payer system. So far the Republicans have offered zero concessions for their demands. It's time to ask for one - the only one Dems should ever accept.
 
2013-10-05 04:34:43 PM
Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf
 
2013-10-05 04:36:11 PM

whidbey: eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?

The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.


Jesus, man. What propaganda? There's zero indication that the Dems have any intention of backing down. It absolutely won't happen. You really think Obama will sign a bill that kills his signature legislation?  Never. It will literally never happen.  Meanwhile, the Republicans have been flailing wildly all week, and despite the media's best efforts to say "both sides are bad", most people know this is all the Republican's fault.
 
2013-10-05 04:44:14 PM

eddiesocket: whidbey: eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?

The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.

Jesus, man. What propaganda? There's zero indication that the Dems have any intention of backing down. It absolutely won't happen. You really think Obama will sign a bill that kills his signature legislation?  Never. It will literally never happen.  Meanwhile, the Republicans have been flailing wildly all week, and despite the media's best efforts to say "both sides are bad", most people know this is all the Republican's fault.


I'd really like to think so.

But to discount that the right-wing hasn't spent shiatloads of time and money on discrediting Obamacare, or really, any governmentally-mandated health care system, is a bit lacking on your part. The fact is that mainstream America thinks they're centrist when they say shiat like the government is "forcing" people to buy health care.
 
2013-10-05 04:48:22 PM

whidbey: eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?

The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.


The teabaggers and their minions are a minority except in their gerrymandered, mostly-white and conservative districts. They do not represent the majority of Americans, or even the majority of Congress.

They can stomp and whine and hold their breath until they turn blue, but I believe the moderates will cave soon enough. We don't legislate by extortion, and we will not be terrorized by the Republican Taliban.
 
2013-10-05 04:51:16 PM

cc_rider: whidbey: eddiesocket: The only way the shutdown ends is if enough Democrats agree to defund Obamacare or enough Republicans agree to fund Obamacare. Which do you think is going to happen?

The cynic in me is going with "defunding Obamacare" no matter how Constitutionally-protected or how overwhelmingly it was voted into law.

I'd be real surprised if the Republicans backed down. The propaganda is just too effective.

The teabaggers and their minions are a minority except in their gerrymandered, mostly-white and conservative districts. They do not represent the majority of Americans, or even the majority of Congress.

They can stomp and whine and hold their breath until they turn blue, but I believe the moderates will cave soon enough. We don't legislate by extortion, and we will not be terrorized by the Republican Taliban.


I honestly have trouble believing that a good half (or more) of this country believes we're being "terrorized" by such socially-backward ideology.

They almost voted in that shiat last November, and we're going to have the same bullshiat again, with higher stakes than last time.
 
2013-10-05 04:59:37 PM

cc_rider: the moderates will cave soon enough


Yep.

Remember in late 2008 when the real estate bubble popped, and we couldn't even pretend everything was fine anymore? The teabagger bubble has just about reached maximum diameter and minimum thickness.

I assumed the moderate revolt was going to happen after 5PM EDT yesterday. I'm a little surprised it didn't. It's going to happen, though, otherwise (debt ceiling) the world ends as we know it. That bubble just can't take any more hot air.
 
2013-10-05 05:03:29 PM

Fuggin Bizzy: The teabagger bubble has just about reached maximum diameter and minimum thickness.


As long as taxation is still regarded as "theft," the 2nd Amendment is still given ridiculous amounts of face time, as long as there is constant biatching about "spending" "debt ceiling" "15 trillion dollar deficit" ETC, I really hate to break it to you but there is no danger of Tea Party style ideology losing ground in this country.

I really wonder where you got your impression that we're becoming more of a liberal society.
 
2013-10-05 05:03:47 PM
Whatever "spine" was created in the last year is too little, too late.  If the blue-dog Democrats had a spine or the realization that they were one-term congressmen AT BEST, then we could have had our single-payer plan too and other reforms.  Next time the Democrats get a hold of all three branches we better not pull this "appease everyone" or we will be back to the same old stuff we have how.
 
2013-10-05 05:05:52 PM

marcand: If the blue-dog Democrats had a spine or the realization that they were one-term congressmen AT BEST, then we could have had our single-payer plan too and other reforms


It wouldn't be democracy. The sad fact is that they are old skool Democrats from the South, or frustratingly conservative Democrats like Carl Levin from the North.

The Blue Dogs will continue as long as we have conservatives who vote them in.
 
2013-10-05 05:08:02 PM

red5ish: Their attempt to use extortion to dictate policy is obvious and their willingness to hurt Americans and lie about what they are doing is ridiculously transparent. They have made a huge error in attempting such a blatant move to overthrow the democratic process. It will be a huge set back for them, and it may prove to be their undoing.


Nope.

The people who still vote GOP in this day and age are retards. They're just too stupid to see how bad the GOP is for the US. No matter what the GOP does the retards will keep on voting for them. They'll blame the libs when the GOP politics bites them in the ass. This is no longer politics; it's tribalism.

IMHO, of course.
 
2013-10-05 05:09:10 PM

Fuggin Bizzy: I assumed the moderate revolt was going to happen after 5PM EDT yesterday. I'm a little surprised it didn't. It's going to happen, though, otherwise (debt ceiling) the world ends as we know it. That bubble just can't take any more hot air.

img707.imageshack.us
img20.imageshack.us
 
2013-10-05 05:10:53 PM

whidbey: I really wonder where you got your impression that we're becoming more of a liberal society.


Interesting takeaway. Where did I say that?

There were Republicans (even modern Republicans) and conservatives around long before there were teabaggers. They'll be around after the bubble pops too. It's specifically the teabaggers that are thiiiiis close to losing their credibility and being written off as paranoid, stupid nutjobs we should be ignoring.
 
2013-10-05 05:13:31 PM

Fuggin Bizzy: whidbey: I really wonder where you got your impression that we're becoming more of a liberal society.

Interesting takeaway. Where did I say that?

There were Republicans (even modern Republicans) and conservatives around long before there were teabaggers. They'll be around after the bubble pops too. It's specifically the teabaggers that are thiiiiis close to losing their credibility and being written off as paranoid, stupid nutjobs we should be ignoring.


I dunno. Maybe I'm just hungover or something, but I would like to believe that more than I am right now. I think we're headed for Hell, and people seem to want it.
 
2013-10-05 05:23:28 PM

whidbey: Fuggin Bizzy: whidbey: I really wonder where you got your impression that we're becoming more of a liberal society.

Interesting takeaway. Where did I say that?

There were Republicans (even modern Republicans) and conservatives around long before there were teabaggers. They'll be around after the bubble pops too. It's specifically the teabaggers that are thiiiiis close to losing their credibility and being written off as paranoid, stupid nutjobs we should be ignoring.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just hungover or something, but I would like to believe that more than I am right now. I think we're headed for Hell, and people seem to want it.


We may still have to live with their scumbaggery for a short time, but look at the total votes in the last election, and note which party most of 'em went to. This is the "Custer's Last Stand" of the angry White conservatives and they know that even at this point, they have to resort to gerrymandering and vote suppression to win elections. They know they're toast, in a country where the demographics and values are changing, and this is just a sad attempt to take as many down with them as they can.

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/meet-80-republicans-signed-letter-beg gi ng-gov-shutdown-video/
 
2013-10-05 05:25:38 PM

Uncle Tractor: Nope.


While I concede the merits of your argument I think the House Republicans may have stirred up enough anger to get moderates to vote against them, and with every day of the shutdown more will become angry.
 
2013-10-05 05:26:16 PM
Mad Tea Party * * Smartest * Funniest 2013-10-05 01:33:38 PM If they had any kind of a spine, they'd be pushing for single-payer instead of a rebranded Romneycare.
====================================================

It's a wonderful albeit small step in the right direction and a HELL of a lot better than the status-quo. I'll take it for now.

We can fight that battle some other day.
 
2013-10-05 05:28:22 PM

Darth Macho: They might as well hold up those signs from 'They Live' with a message like, "HATE OBAMA: NO SPECIFIC REASON".


Perfect!
 
2013-10-05 05:36:19 PM

whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.


Demographically, the R(ape) party is on the way out. They're literally dying off, and not being replaced. It's just a matter of time before they are solely a regional minority annoyance. Thank fsm.
 
2013-10-05 05:42:25 PM

whidbey: Fuggin Bizzy: The teabagger bubble has just about reached maximum diameter and minimum thickness.

As long as taxation is still regarded as "theft," the 2nd Amendment is still given ridiculous amounts of face time, as long as there is constant biatching about "spending" "debt ceiling" "15 trillion dollar deficit" ETC, republicans can get away with accusing democrats of taking money from hard working white Christians and giving it to blah people,  I really hate to break it to you but there is no danger of Tea Party style ideology losing ground in this country.

I really wonder where you got your impression that we're becoming more of a liberal society.


Sorry, just wanted to cut through the minutia and get at the heart of what you were dancing around
 
2013-10-05 05:43:33 PM

Evil High Priest: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Demographically, the R(ape) party is on the way out. They're literally dying off, and not being replaced. It's just a matter of time before they are solely a regional minority annoyance. Thank fsm.


This is not a repeat from 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012.
 
2013-10-05 05:45:39 PM
I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.
 
2013-10-05 05:46:37 PM

super_grass: This is not a repeat from 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012.


There have been a lot of them and some of them get surprisingly old on the bacon-and-cigarette diet. And early in that timeline of yours, they were being replaced.
 
2013-10-05 05:48:08 PM
Democrats to GOP: Go fark your selves sideways.

Come back when you're ready to do your jobs.
 
2013-10-05 05:49:33 PM

super_grass: Evil High Priest: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Demographically, the R(ape) party is on the way out. They're literally dying off, and not being replaced. It's just a matter of time before they are solely a regional minority annoyance. Thank fsm.

This is not a repeat from 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012.


It was true then, and it's true now. But it is also true that a small group of fanatics who are willing to destroy everything if they don't get their way can temporarily take control of a group. Public opinion poll show that Independents are very much against tea party terrorists.
 
2013-10-05 05:51:48 PM

super_grass: Evil High Priest: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Demographically, the R(ape) party is on the way out. They're literally dying off, and not being replaced. It's just a matter of time before they are solely a regional minority annoyance. Thank fsm.

This is not a repeat from 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, and 2012.


In the time it took you to type that, another 10 old, angry white guys kicked the bucket. And 15 people turned 18, ready to vote out the morons. It's attrition, and it's happening. Not fast enough for my tastes, but it is happening.
 
2013-10-05 06:04:28 PM

zetar: Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf


Great link!  Thanks

I got a chuckle out of this part, "They think President Obama is on the verge of using his powers to pursue his agenda without limits. That is evident in the frequent discussions about executive orders and action"

If the Discharge Petition works to pass a clean Continuing Resolution then the fears of the paranoid nutjobs on the right will only be reaffirmed.  It will be viewed as Obama by passing Congress to move his agenda forward.
 
2013-10-05 06:13:55 PM

blastoh: cman: I wouldn't say that they grew a spine moreso than they are now more united than ever.

GOP gave pretty much every Democrat a common enemy by their actions

Those who were passive are now rather active because they are pretty damn angry

I think you pretty much nailed it.
There is the old saying (think it goes to Clinton) that "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

Since at least the seventies, the weakness of the democrats has always been their lack of unity, while the strength of the GOP has been their unity.


I think we are seeing the beginnings of a complete reversal of this.


It'd be nice, but I doubt it. The Republicans are unofficially split by the Tea Party, but the Democrats are just looking at the numbers: people love Obamacare when it's described as policies rather than "Obamacare," i.e. the love that people with preexisting conditions can get coverage, etc. The word "Obamacare" polls badly, but the effects are great. The Republicans made a gigantic tactical error by letting the shutdown happen too late for it to actually impact Obamacare, which was already funded and so didn't shut down with the rest of the government (i.e. the exchanges were open Monday, even though everything else was shutting down), because they now don't have a bargaining position (as the polls indicate most people recognize).

Their hand was probably forced by the timing, but I have to wonder why they picked this fight now. I suspect it was a last-ditch effort, probably combined with the echo-chamber effect that they seem to be operating under. Outright disbelief of the polls, combined with whatever the fark Boehner thinks he's doing, and the Democrats' past behavior made them think that if they held firm, the Democrats would cave without their having to make a serious offer.
 
2013-10-05 06:46:36 PM

whidbey: Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

Let me guess: Help help you are being oppressed.


gaygamer.net

"I am Andrew Ryan, and I am here to ask you a question. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

'No,' says the man in Washington, 'it belongs to the poor.'
'No,' says the man in the Vatican, 'it belongs to God.'
'No,' says the man in Moscow, 'it belongs to everyone.'

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose...

Rapture.

A city where the artist would not fear the censor,
where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality,
where the great would not be constrained by the small.

And with the sweat of your brow, Rapture can become your city, as well."

/How did you not recognize that?
//Also the picture pops
 
2013-10-05 06:58:02 PM
Wake me when they get the spine of a...
timelifeblog.files.wordpress.com
HERO SHREW!
 
2013-10-05 07:03:25 PM

Infernalist: Bloody William: DirtyDeadGhostofEbenezerCooke: Weaver95: Mrbogey:
Behold. What voting Democrat can do to a mind.

why would the Democrats back down?  what's the advantage to them for doing so?

I'll believe it when they actually break the House Republicans.  Until then, I'll be expecting the usual jellyfish outcome.

I think even the most spineless, craven Democrats realize that this is the point where if they cave they will never wield political power again. Even if they stay in office and in the majority, the precedent will have been set that Republicans can use budget and debt ceiling tactics to demand anything they want.

This is entirely about 'control' of the legislative branch, my friend.  The GOP has spent the last 3 years wasting the time of the Congress with 40+ repeals of Obamacare that they know will die in the Senate and now that Obamacare is a reality, they're trying to undo that with hostage tactics.

In short, they're a bunch of losers who refuse to realize that they lost and lost big.

If the Democrats capitulate on this(and they won't), they can expect the same tactic to be used every time a CR is needed.

That's why the Democrats are breaking the GOP in this.  To teach them a hard lesson in reality-based decision making.


I want to believe, but that son of a biatch Max Baucus is retiring and he only needs a few more 'concerned, pragmatic' Democratic Senators to drop the whole thing on Obama.  If Obama has to veto it, that changes the 'who's keeping the government shut down' blame game narrative.
 
2013-10-05 07:08:14 PM
So how many of us have republican Reps?

Mine is in no danger of being primaried in this wealthy district, nor losing to a Dem.

Letter writing campaigns and phone call are all we have right now.
 
2013-10-05 07:16:12 PM
Ok, now that they've learned to stomp on the brakes...

time to learn out to push on the gas pedal.

/gun it
 
2013-10-05 07:42:30 PM

and Natasha: blastoh: cman: I wouldn't say that they grew a spine moreso than they are now more united than ever.

GOP gave pretty much every Democrat a common enemy by their actions

Those who were passive are now rather active because they are pretty damn angry

I think you pretty much nailed it.
There is the old saying (think it goes to Clinton) that "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

Since at least the seventies, the weakness of the democrats has always been their lack of unity, while the strength of the GOP has been their unity.


I think we are seeing the beginnings of a complete reversal of this.

It'd be nice, but I doubt it. The Republicans are unofficially split by the Tea Party, but the Democrats are just looking at the numbers: people love Obamacare when it's described as policies rather than "Obamacare," i.e. the love that people with preexisting conditions can get coverage, etc. The word "Obamacare" polls badly, but the effects are great. The Republicans made a gigantic tactical error by letting the shutdown happen too late for it to actually impact Obamacare, which was already funded and so didn't shut down with the rest of the government (i.e. the exchanges were open Monday, even though everything else was shutting down), because they now don't have a bargaining position (as the polls indicate most people recognize).

Their hand was probably forced by the timing, but I have to wonder why they picked this fight now. I suspect it was a last-ditch effort, probably combined with the echo-chamber effect that they seem to be operating under. Outright disbelief of the polls, combined with whatever the fark Boehner thinks he's doing, and the Democrats' past behavior made them think that if they held firm, the Democrats would cave without their having to make a serious offer.


Its kind of a complex perfect storm scenario.

From the base point of view,  they whipped themselves into a frenzy about how Obama was going to be a dictator and with the ACA has his signature piece of legislation, this is how he was going to do it.  The ACA (aka Obamacare) is the end of democracy, freedom, capitalism.  The barbarians are at the gates, the wolves are at the door.  The constitution is burning.  This is it.  If we want to preserve freedom and the American way of life, this is our last chance before it goes into effect and everything crumbles.

Couple this with (the legislative point of view) the fact that deep down then know that they have no ideas, or are at least scared to put anything forward lest it violate their core principles.  So, the only way to save face is to keep the other sides idea from going into effect and working.
This way, they can still sell the BSABSVR narrative.

Mix those together, since many people actually are working from both viewpoints, and you get the ultimate echo chamber failure to properly communicate with yourselves and the rest of the world.  But hey, Some men you just can't reach.  So, you get what we had here last week, which is the way they want it. Well, they get it. I don't like it any more than you
 
2013-10-05 07:51:17 PM
The Democrat's caving in and adopting the Ryan budget, complete with sequestration, is now considered "uncompromising"?
 
2013-10-05 08:01:42 PM

Notabunny: The Democrat's caving in and adopting the Ryan budget, complete with sequestration, is now considered "uncompromising"?


well....  they still haven't given in to all the demands.

"The shutdown could last awhile since the Tea Party is demanding the President not be black anymore."
-Andy Borowitz
 
2013-10-05 08:03:47 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)

He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.


President Obama has had his 'Popeye' moment - 'That'sk all I can stands, and I can't standsk no more!'

The Republican Blutos had better look out.
 
2013-10-05 08:10:38 PM
The intransigence of Democrats, from Obama on down to red-state senators, has surprised the GOP. They honestly expected a few of the Democrats to crack-after all, four of them are running for re-election in states that voted for Mitt Romney. "If you're a Mark Pryor, if you're a Mary Landrieu, running for re-election in Arkansas and Louisiana, and you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, calls from your constituents, suddenly, it changes the calculus entirely."

There's the crux.  They thought the Dems would fold and when they didn't, the GOP had no backup plan.
 
2013-10-05 08:25:07 PM

Mentat: The intransigence of Democrats, from Obama on down to red-state senators, has surprised the GOP. They honestly expected a few of the Democrats to crack-after all, four of them are running for re-election in states that voted for Mitt Romney. "If you're a Mark Pryor, if you're a Mary Landrieu, running for re-election in Arkansas and Louisiana, and you start to get 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 50,000, calls from your constituents, suddenly, it changes the calculus entirely."

There's the crux.  They thought the Dems would fold and when they didn't, the GOP had no backup plan.


It is not that they don't have a backup plan, it is that the shutdown was and is the entire plan. There never was any plan for ending it or what would happen after the shutdown or how it might be put to use. So much effort was placed on shutting down and so many people had different ideas about what it would accomplish, that nothing was acually planned.
 
2013-10-05 08:48:45 PM

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: So how many of us have republican Reps?

Mine is in no danger of being primaried in this wealthy district, nor losing to a Dem.

Letter writing campaigns and phone call are all we have right now.


my Congressman is Republican, is at risk of being primaried as well as losing to a Dem in the general election.

my district went Obama in 2012, if the DNC didn't wait until a month before election day to spend money, a democrat would be in this seat now.
 
2013-10-05 09:17:02 PM

ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?


Mrbooger's bridge is federally operated and it's been closed.  He's been furloughed and has a lot of free time.
 
2013-10-05 09:37:27 PM

Hobodeluxe: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: Obama should say, you know what? I'm not going to sign any provisions to keep the govt open or to extend the debt limit until I get single payer/medicare for all. Tighter regulations on Wall st. And a 3% capital gains tax increase. Now mr Boehner are you ready to negotiate?

As much as I want those things, I don't see how that is any different than the GOP's hostage-taking.  The goal should be to eliminate the use of the shutdown or debt ceiling as a high-stakes extortion attempt altogether.

yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)


No, I think at this point that is a bad idea.  There was a point for this, but it has passed.  The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.
 
2013-10-05 09:44:06 PM

bk3k: The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.


Thankfully, demanding absolutely nothing in negotiations is Obama's strong suit.
 
2013-10-05 09:57:45 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: bk3k: The fact that Obama has no demands at all except "Don't wreck the country you stupid assholes" is now clearly his strongest card.  It is because of this that the GOPs message of "Obama won't negotiate so he is at fault" falls flat on everyone outside the echo chamber and even upon a few within it.  His demanding of nothing gets him more than any demand ever could.

Thankfully, demanding absolutely nothing in negotiations is Obama's strong suit.


Oh, that's uncalled for. At least he's not giving shiat away for nothing as per usual.. Could it be that he has, finally, learned his lesson? One can hope for change.
 
2013-10-05 10:03:44 PM

CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.


I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.

If the Democratic plan goes through, then we'll see exactly how 'moderate' Republicans are.  Until then, they're all cut from the same cloth.
 
2013-10-05 10:07:55 PM

Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


You can sweat all you want but I recommend that you take a shower before you mingle with the rest of society.

/Or use some deodorant.
//Or at least change your shirt.
//You might want to shave too.
 
2013-10-05 10:31:05 PM

Target Builder: whidbey: Infernalist: The GOP is doomed.

I'd love to believe you. Unfortunately, Americans are not ready to embrace any sort of system of progressivism. They want the Lie of the American Dream, and they would vote for it again.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?


A man's brow sweats regardless of political affiliation.
 
2013-10-05 10:35:31 PM

Guntram Shatterhand: CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.

I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.


I absolutely agree that Republicans love divide and conquer, but it does seem like more than a few Democrats love "combine and conquer." As in "Let's combine the long-term pain of cuts to certain social programs with immediate pain to cuts in National Parks and other things that will impact citizens forthwith." They do not say "Damn, this is a horrible situation, let's try to minimize the pain to Americans. Eventually, they will see that the cuts are bad for America, and force their Representative to fix things." Rather, they think (perhaps rightly, but never explicitly) that a hard jolt of immediate inconvenience will make Americans lobby Congress to make the pain go away.

Maybe such shenanigans are necessary, but they do seem a bit underhanded. People *will* change with long-term pain, and personal impatience isn't really a good reason to kick voters in the unmentionables.

/IMO, after three glasses of wine.
 
2013-10-05 10:43:34 PM

CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.


the "both sides are bad" thing is getting old.
These are the guys that will still make some half ass attempt at blaming the shutdown on the democrats, and when present facts, like the letter signed by 80 congressmen signing on to this strategy, they suddenly pull out the, "yeah well both sides are bad."

And, if you push them for why the republicans are bad, they will almost always tell you some version of "for compromising with the democrats," or "for not sticking to their conservative roots" BS story.

Until a majority of moderates stand up and vocally oppose the tea party, nothing will change.  The problem is, the ones who might actually be ready to do so wont because it would mean agreeing with the democrats on something.
 
2013-10-05 10:43:46 PM

whidbey: Infernalist: whidbey: When did the Democratic party finally grow a spine and stand up to the GOP?


Or more like why is Slate writing a fluff piece on the Democrats?

And as long as there is still a shutdown, there's no indication the Democrats are fighting for shiat.

No need to be mad, broseph.  Also, standing still is fighting when the other guy wants the hill you're holding.

Yeah but seriously come on.

This is the most shiat-filled political theater since the Bush administration. It's really hard to support the party you helped elect twice, and overwhelmingly. This might be about Obamacare, sure, but a lot of other services are taking a huge hit because of this.


So what's the alternative? They give the Republicans everything they want, gain NOTHING, and get held hostage by a petulant, childish minority party...AGAIN??

It's time for Republicans to learn that ELECTIONS have CONSEQUENCES.
 
2013-10-05 10:50:51 PM

DO NOT WANT Poster Girl: So how many of us have republican Reps?

Mine is in no danger of being primaried in this wealthy district, nor losing to a Dem.

Letter writing campaigns and phone call are all we have right now.


Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.
 
2013-10-05 11:04:06 PM

OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.


if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.
 
2013-10-05 11:17:35 PM

zetar: Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf


Thank you for that. That was quite insightful in that it presented these folks in a somewhat compassionate manner. It acknowledged that they do believe themselves to right and that they're the 'good guys.' It does go a long way to making me realize that they can never be 'educated' into seeing the error of their ways.

I do have to wonder why they're so adamant about forbidding abortion and birth control among the non-believers.  If us heathen breed even more, these folk are just going to become a smaller minority more quickly.

(My only complaint is that the .pdf was a real strain on my eyes.)
 
2013-10-06 12:09:23 AM

blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.


A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.
 
2013-10-06 12:22:00 AM

OneBrightMonkey: blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.

A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.


Thanx for the link. That was a good read.
 
2013-10-06 02:11:49 AM

Snarfangel: Guntram Shatterhand: CorporatePerson: I blame the moderate Republicans for all this.

I have so many Republicans friends and family members who complain "the liberal media portrays all Republicans like they're all extremist fundamentalists!"  So here's the GOP acting completely insane, holding the country hostage, and where are the moderates? They're silent.

Those that do speak up offer little more than a half-assed "Both sides are bad" defense. fark em. They're no better than the teatards, and they're just as responsible, if not more, for this clusterfark.

I think we should really question the 'moderate Republican' myth at this point:  if you're standing behind the Teabaggers and not actively fighting them, you're enabling and hence part of the problem.  The Republicans love divide and conquer, and that goes for explanations whenever their true motives are called out.

I absolutely agree that Republicans love divide and conquer, but it does seem like more than a few Democrats love "combine and conquer." As in "Let's combine the long-term pain of cuts to certain social programs with immediate pain to cuts in National Parks and other things that will impact citizens forthwith." They do not say "Damn, this is a horrible situation, let's try to minimize the pain to Americans. Eventually, they will see that the cuts are bad for America, and force their Representative to fix things." Rather, they think (perhaps rightly, but never explicitly) that a hard jolt of immediate inconvenience will make Americans lobby Congress to make the pain go away.

Maybe such shenanigans are necessary, but they do seem a bit underhanded. People *will* change with long-term pain, and personal impatience isn't really a good reason to kick voters in the unmentionables.

/IMO, after three glasses of wine.


Hope you don't have anything pending before a Federal Court because those are unfunded too, for the most part. Sorry if there's no money for the parks, but there isn't. Thank your House Representative.
 
2013-10-06 06:15:39 AM

geek_mars: OneBrightMonkey: blastoh: OneBrightMonkey: Money always talks. The insanity caucus that has assaulted the sensible GOP is a fortnight from destroying our credit rating. If they keep it up, solid republicans will start voting for moderate dems because the stability of a 401K trumps ideology.

if they were this rational, we would not be in this position.

A good read:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/09/meadows-boehne r- defund-obamacare-suicide-caucus-geography.html

The Dems only need about 20 adults from the House GOP to get a CR passed. It will happen.

Thanx for the link. That was a good read.


Seconded. The idea that the GOP's gerrymandering is becoming their undoing is rather interesting.
 
2013-10-06 08:25:23 AM
2.bp.blogspot.com

"I will not sacrifice America. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade nations, and we fall back. They filibuster entire bills, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!"
 
2013-10-06 08:28:13 AM

CptnSpldng: zetar: Really superb research by James Carville (AKA The Snake) and company about who makes up the GOP and what's tearing it apart from the inside. Well worth the read (links to PDF): http://www.democracycorps.com/attachments/article/954/dcor%20rpp%20fg % 20memo%20100313%20final.pdf

Thank you for that. That was quite insightful in that it presented these folks in a somewhat compassionate manner. It acknowledged that they do believe themselves to right and that they're the 'good guys.' It does go a long way to making me realize that they can never be 'educated' into seeing the error of their ways.

I do have to wonder why they're so adamant about forbidding abortion and birth control among the non-believers.  If us heathen breed even more, these folk are just going to become a smaller minority more quickly.

(My only complaint is that the .pdf was a real strain on my eyes.)


One of the surprises for me was that the GOP can't comprehend helping people (like with health insurance) because it's the decent thing to do. They are adamant that it's just a ploy to lock in 'addicted' voters.
 
2013-10-06 11:55:08 AM

StopLurkListen: "Art of War" was a business cliche in the 1980's, but Sun Tzu nailed it when he described how you want to set the environment of a fight before you start the fight. The GOP violated those principles in almost every way.


Don't discount it just because a bunch of idiots in business schools were championing it at one point.
 
2013-10-06 12:27:46 PM

zetar: One of the surprises for me was that the GOP can't comprehend helping people (like with health insurance) because it's the decent thing to do. They are adamant that it's just a ploy to lock in 'addicted' voters.


They see EVERYTHING as being about votes, spin and political victories.  To them everything is about winning elections, about gaining power.

They don't care about people, just money and power.  They can't comprehend the idea of elected officials trying to do what is best for the people, they only see it as the other side trying to pander to voters for votes.
 
2013-10-06 01:01:15 PM

Peter von Nostrand: ManateeGag: Mrbogey: What gives with Democrats perpetually whining about how weak their leadership is. What is the psychological payoff on that delusion?

10am is a little early, to be drunk, isn't it?

Not only no... but hell no


Where I live, 10am is called "kick-off."
 
2013-10-06 01:11:57 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Hobodeluxe: yeah but that's the point. they claim he won't negotiate. but he's not asking for anything, so he makes a list of demands of his own and then the ball is in their court. they can't accuse him of not being willing to negotiate then. Then he has demands that he's willing to concede if they will drop their demands :)

He shouldn't negotiate.  He shouldn't draw up an opposing list of demands and justify their behavior by engaging in it.  He should do exactly what he is doing (I believe this is the first time I've ever said that about President Milquetoast) and refuse to interact with them on any level where the situation is framed as a negotiation.  The proper response is to say "we do not negotiate with terrorists", and oppose the tactic at its source.


images.politico.com"We will NOT negotiate with idiots."

 
2013-10-06 01:13:22 PM
Damn.... first time posting from a Macbook. Is the formatting different/buggy for macs?
 
2013-10-06 03:36:51 PM

DeltaPunch: Damn.... first time posting from a Macbook. Is the formatting different/buggy for macs?


Shouldn't be.
 
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