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(Major League Baseball)   Carlos Beltran ties Babe Ruth with 15th post-season home run. Difficulty: Babe Ruth hit his when the post-season didn't last quite as long as the regular season   (mlb.mlb.com) divider line 37
    More: Spiffy, Carlos Beltran, Babe Ruth, Cardinals, home runs, Mike Matheny, Adam Wainwright, Division Series, Daniel Descalso  
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225 clicks; posted to Sports » on 05 Oct 2013 at 11:04 AM (28 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-05 08:01:16 AM
Sure, but beers weren't $9 back in the Babe's day.

/or something
 
2013-10-05 08:12:57 AM
I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.
 
2013-10-05 10:31:18 AM
My research indicates that it took Ruth 41 postseason games to reach 15 home runs; Beltran has only taken 36 games.
 
2013-10-05 11:07:03 AM
Beltran is having one of the quieter HOF careers I can think of.  Odd considering how much of his career he played in New York.
 
2013-10-05 11:14:10 AM

Nabb1: I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.


qorkfiend: My research indicates that it took Ruth 41 postseason games to reach 15 home runs; Beltran has only taken 36 games.


These.  A little deeper:

The Babe hit his first in game 4 of the 1921 World Series, and his last two in game 3 of the 1932 World Series.  (And we all have heard about a thousand times about his last postseason homer.)  Strictly speaking, he hit 15 home runs in 32 games over 7 postseason series in 7 out of 12 years, his last at age 37. In his first three World Series, he had one at-bat in games he didn't pitch in (he pinch hit for the pitcher in game 1 of the 1915 World Series, and also subbed in left in game 6 of the 1918 World Series but did not bat).  Furthermore, his games were in the beginning of the "live ball" era, with managers still using dead ball strategy.

Beltran hit his first in game 1 of the 2004 NLCS, and his last yesterday.  So his 15 are in 36 games over 8 postseason series in four out of 10 years, his last at age 36.  His games are in a "everyone try for homers every game ever" era, with managers fully aware of that.

So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.
 
2013-10-05 11:15:12 AM

Super Chronic: Beltran is having one of the quieter HOF careers I can think of.  Odd considering how much of his career he played in New York.


Beltran has a 1.231 career playoff OPS in 36 games, tied the playoff HR record, and all anyone will remember of him in October is striking out that one time for the mets. Yeah, it's never seemed like he's quite cracked that "superstar" level in people's minds, even though he's a solid hall of famer. He's one of I think 6 guys with 300 HR and 300 SB
 
2013-10-05 11:15:56 AM

Super Chronic: Beltran is having one of the quieter HOF careers I can think of.  Odd considering how much of his career he played in New York.


He's not a loud, vocal guy.  Somehow, that's translated to a quiet HoF career.

One of the best defenders of his era, at least back when he could still move.  Best stolen base percentage ever of anyone with over 200 steals.  Best postseason hitter ever.
 
2013-10-05 11:16:37 AM
Ruth probably went to more post seasons than Beltran has. Anybody know the total ABs involved?
 
2013-10-05 11:19:41 AM

FriarReb98: Nabb1: I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.

qorkfiend: My research indicates that it took Ruth 41 postseason games to reach 15 home runs; Beltran has only taken 36 games.

These.  A little deeper:

The Babe hit his first in game 4 of the 1921 World Series, and his last two in game 3 of the 1932 World Series.  (And we all have heard about a thousand times about his last postseason homer.)  Strictly speaking, he hit 15 home runs in 32 games over 7 postseason series in 7 out of 12 years, his last at age 37. In his first three World Series, he had one at-bat in games he didn't pitch in (he pinch hit for the pitcher in game 1 of the 1915 World Series, and also subbed in left in game 6 of the 1918 World Series but did not bat).  Furthermore, his games were in the beginning of the "live ball" era, with managers still using dead ball strategy.

Beltran hit his first in game 1 of the 2004 NLCS, and his last yesterday.  So his 15 are in 36 games over 8 postseason series in four out of 10 years, his last at age 36.  His games are in a "everyone try for homers every game ever" era, with managers fully aware of that.

So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.


He had to have several ABs as a member of the Red Sox, where he set a record for post season scoreless innings as a pitcher that stood for over 50 years.
 
2013-10-05 11:23:18 AM

FriarReb98: Nabb1: I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.

qorkfiend: My research indicates that it took Ruth 41 postseason games to reach 15 home runs; Beltran has only taken 36 games.

These.  A little deeper:

The Babe hit his first in game 4 of the 1921 World Series, and his last two in game 3 of the 1932 World Series.  (And we all have heard about a thousand times about his last postseason homer.)  Strictly speaking, he hit 15 home runs in 32 games over 7 postseason series in 7 out of 12 years, his last at age 37. In his first three World Series, he had one at-bat in games he didn't pitch in (he pinch hit for the pitcher in game 1 of the 1915 World Series, and also subbed in left in game 6 of the 1918 World Series but did not bat).  Furthermore, his games were in the beginning of the "live ball" era, with managers still using dead ball strategy.

Beltran hit his first in game 1 of the 2004 NLCS, and his last yesterday.  So his 15 are in 36 games over 8 postseason series in four out of 10 years, his last at age 36.  His games are in a "everyone try for homers every game ever" era, with managers fully aware of that.

So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.


Ruth had 167 postseason PAs.  Beltran has 160.  Ruth doesn't get extra credit for not homering in his first few.  If you did give him that credit (and partially cause the mid 10s were still deadball), then starting in 1918, when Ruth led baseball with 11 hr (so still kinda deadball), you have 161 PA for Ruth.  Pretty even.  Ruth has a slight edge in OBP.  Beltran in AVG and SLG.

Also, as to accomplishments and meaning, I'm not one of those people who rants about how old-time players would suck today.  Ruth would still kill it.  But he did face lesser competition (the back ends of rotations had to be weaker than they are now).  Plus, you know, black people.
 
2013-10-05 11:44:41 AM

Dafatone: Ruth had 167 postseason PAs.  Beltran has 160.  Ruth doesn't get extra credit for not homering in his first few.  If you did give him that credit (and partially cause the mid 10s were still deadball), then starting in 1918, when Ruth led baseball with 11 hr (so still kinda deadball), you have 161 PA for Ruth.  Pretty even.  Ruth has a slight edge in OBP.  Beltran in AVG and SLG.


MFAWG: He had to have several ABs as a member of the Red Sox, where he set a record for post season scoreless innings as a pitcher that stood for over 50 years.


You're both missing the point, mostly.  The Babe was not  supposed to be what we consider a modern "home run hitter" until 1919.  His first five seasons he was just a damned good pitcher who got to hit when it was convenient to the team.  It's not "extra credit," it's simple truth.  Beltran has spent his entire career being known for his offense; Ruth didn't get to that point until he was about four or five seasons in.  Ruth's first three series he appeared in five frickin' games, because he was a pitcher.  Beltran has been an everyday postseason player since day one.

Hell, it can be argued that they changed the entire game for Ruth and people like him by making balls easier to hit a million miles.  Numbers can tell you a lot, but it can't tell you how important they are.  Ruth's will always carry extra weight compared to Beltran's, or any other modern player's for that matter.
 
2013-10-05 11:51:46 AM
MLB postseason length still has nothing on the NBA postseason.
 
2013-10-05 11:56:25 AM

FriarReb98: Dafatone: Ruth had 167 postseason PAs.  Beltran has 160.  Ruth doesn't get extra credit for not homering in his first few.  If you did give him that credit (and partially cause the mid 10s were still deadball), then starting in 1918, when Ruth led baseball with 11 hr (so still kinda deadball), you have 161 PA for Ruth.  Pretty even.  Ruth has a slight edge in OBP.  Beltran in AVG and SLG.

MFAWG: He had to have several ABs as a member of the Red Sox, where he set a record for post season scoreless innings as a pitcher that stood for over 50 years.

You're both missing the point, mostly.  The Babe was not  supposed to be what we consider a modern "home run hitter" until 1919.  His first five seasons he was just a damned good pitcher who got to hit when it was convenient to the team.  It's not "extra credit," it's simple truth.  Beltran has spent his entire career being known for his offense; Ruth didn't get to that point until he was about four or five seasons in.  Ruth's first three series he appeared in five frickin' games, because he was a pitcher.  Beltran has been an everyday postseason player since day one.

Hell, it can be argued that they changed the entire game for Ruth and people like him by making balls easier to hit a million miles.  Numbers can tell you a lot, but it can't tell you how important they are.  Ruth's will always carry extra weight compared to Beltran's, or any other modern player's for that matter.


You know the reason they changed the balls, right? Had very little to do with Ruth or home runs. Those weren't really considered important until AFTER Ruth hit more home runs than every other team as a member of the Yankees.

Ruth (and Gehrig, and Foxx) were the original 'Home Run Hitters'. Until then, there was simply no such thing.
 
2013-10-05 12:04:04 PM

FriarReb98: (And we all have heard about a thousand times about his last postseason homer.)


You mean the one where he was pointing at the pitcher and some sportswriter tried to make a name for himself by changing the facts for a headline?

/Bill Dickey was right; Ruth was trying to intimidate Charles Root
 
2013-10-05 12:11:28 PM
Back when Babe Ruth was in the post-season, there was no post-season except for the world series (although I do recall there was a time when it went 9 games as opposed to 7, not sure how long that lasted)

The top NL team and the top AL team went straight to the world series and duked it out.

No divisions, no nothing. You were the best or you were nobody.
 
2013-10-05 12:24:06 PM

Nabb1: I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.


Its still impressive no matter how long you played, Reggie never did it and he was renowned for post season play.

And quit bringing up integration, its insulting to both sides since it acts like every player in the negro leagues would dominate and white players would suddenly suck. I don't think many stats drastically change as evidenced by how little stats changed, sure you had a few great players but most were spot fillers.
 
2013-10-05 12:35:54 PM

steamingpile: Nabb1: I don't put much stock in "post-season" records in baseball for that reason. You pretty much have to split them up into eras, and even then, with the reserve clause in use before Curt Flood challenged it and before baseball was integrated, they are pretty useless statistics.

Its still impressive no matter how long you played, Reggie never did it and he was renowned for post season play.

And quit bringing up integration, its insulting to both sides since it acts like every player in the negro leagues would dominate and white players would suddenly suck. I don't think many stats drastically change as evidenced by how little stats changed, sure you had a few great players but most were spot fillers.


The top 20% of Negro League players would have easily made Major League rosters.  Look at what happened to the quality of play in football in the 60s when the AFL bled off a portion of the NFL's talent pool.
 
2013-10-05 12:36:39 PM

FriarReb98: So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.


Babe faced much easier opponents. Easier pitching. Out-of-shape fielders. No minorities. No advanced scouting of hitters. Less information for pitchers about the hitters they faced. Less-refined off-speed pitches.

The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Beltran isn't playing against boys.
 
2013-10-05 12:42:40 PM

FriarReb98: Dafatone: Ruth had 167 postseason PAs.  Beltran has 160.  Ruth doesn't get extra credit for not homering in his first few.  If you did give him that credit (and partially cause the mid 10s were still deadball), then starting in 1918, when Ruth led baseball with 11 hr (so still kinda deadball), you have 161 PA for Ruth.  Pretty even.  Ruth has a slight edge in OBP.  Beltran in AVG and SLG.

MFAWG: He had to have several ABs as a member of the Red Sox, where he set a record for post season scoreless innings as a pitcher that stood for over 50 years.

You're both missing the point, mostly.  The Babe was not  supposed to be what we consider a modern "home run hitter" until 1919.  His first five seasons he was just a damned good pitcher who got to hit when it was convenient to the team.  It's not "extra credit," it's simple truth.  Beltran has spent his entire career being known for his offense; Ruth didn't get to that point until he was about four or five seasons in.  Ruth's first three series he appeared in five frickin' games, because he was a pitcher.  Beltran has been an everyday postseason player since day one.

Hell, it can be argued that they changed the entire game for Ruth and people like him by making balls easier to hit a million miles.  Numbers can tell you a lot, but it can't tell you how important they are.  Ruth's will always carry extra weight compared to Beltran's, or any other modern player's for that matter.


I'm still a little confused as to what you're saying.  If we're comparing their careers, obviously Ruth wins.  He's Babe Ruth.  If we're talking best postseason player, Ruth's three starts (for 31 innings!) and three runs surrendered help put him over the top.

But what's all that have to do with Beltran having as many homers in fewer plate appearances?  Fewer by like seven, and they're right about even if we only take Ruth when he was mashing homers.  But still, it's not like Beltran's had more chances.
 
2013-10-05 12:48:02 PM
dave2198:

Babe faced much easier opponents. Easier pitching. Out-of-shape fielders. No minorities. No advanced scouting of hitters. Less information for pitchers about the hitters they faced. Less-refined off-speed pitches.

The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Beltran isn't playing against boys.


Babe was a fat, drunken slob who didn't advance scout his opponents either.

I guess I don't even understand your point at all, other than that the game has changed?
 
2013-10-05 12:53:50 PM

MNguy: .

Babe was a fat, drunken slob who didn't advance scout his opponents either.

His favorite inning was the bottom of the fifth.

 
2013-10-05 12:57:26 PM

MNguy: dave2198:

Babe faced much easier opponents. Easier pitching. Out-of-shape fielders. No minorities. No advanced scouting of hitters. Less information for pitchers about the hitters they faced. Less-refined off-speed pitches.

The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Beltran isn't playing against boys.

Babe was a fat, drunken slob who didn't advance scout his opponents either.

I guess I don't even understand your point at all, other than that the game has changed?


I'm pretty sure this thread is evenly split between "Babe's competition was nowhere near him and that's proof of his greatness" and "Babe's competition was nowhere near him and that's proof that he wasn't that great."

Weird.
 
2013-10-05 12:58:11 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-10-05 01:18:15 PM
You can't compare players from Ruth's era versus modern players.

Ruth didn't have to face minorities, juicers, scouting reports, relief pitchers, lefty specialists and also didn't have to have a job in the offseason. Also, at the time, MLB was younger so there was a lot less people working their tails off to make it (i.e. smaller talent pool, by far). He also was actually in really good shape in his younger days, which most people don't realize.

However, Ruth didn't have access to PEDs (other than amphetamines/cocaine), scouting reports or modern training.

If he played today, I am willing to be he would've done pretty damn well, but would not have done as well as he did.
 
2013-10-05 01:35:37 PM

machoprogrammer: You can't compare players from Ruth's era versus modern players.

If he played today, I am willing to be he would've done pretty damn well, but would not have done as well as he did.

 
2013-10-05 01:50:29 PM

dave2198: FriarReb98: So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.

Babe faced much easier opponents. Easier pitching. Out-of-shape fielders. No minorities. No advanced scouting of hitters. Less information for pitchers about the hitters they faced. Less-refined off-speed pitches.

The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Beltran isn't playing against boys.


Did you just belittle the accomplishments of a man who is regarded by most historians as the greatest to ever play the game? People that not only saw him, but saw plenty of others who came long after him?

You are insane, and your attempt at trolling is weak.
 
2013-10-05 01:50:53 PM
Setting aside any comparison to Ruth, it's still really farking impressive.
 
2013-10-05 01:56:53 PM

Shrugging Atlas: Setting aside any comparison to Ruth, it's still really farking impressive.


This I agree with...impressive on Beltran's part for sure.
 
2013-10-05 02:23:55 PM

rcf1105: MLB postseason length still has nothing on the NBA postseason.


I know the NHL is hardly even considered a pro-sport by most Americans, but in the scope of this conversation it can't be ignored.  Regular season games started the first week of October, and the Cup finals won't end until mid-June.  Granted there's a break in there for the Olympics, but goddamn....

The last lockout basically killed my interest in the league until Bettman goes away (along with being a Blues fan and decades of resulting annual cockpunches) but even at my most rabid level of fandom I don't think I'd have been keen on eight and a half months start to finish.
 
2013-10-05 02:34:44 PM

neon_god: Super Chronic: Beltran is having one of the quieter HOF careers I can think of.  Odd considering how much of his career he played in New York.

Beltran has a 1.231 career playoff OPS in 36 games, tied the playoff HR record, and all anyone will remember of him in October is striking out that one time for the mets. Yeah, it's never seemed like he's quite cracked that "superstar" level in people's minds, even though he's a solid hall of famer. He's one of I think 6 guys with 300 HR and 300 SB


I definitely remember his 2004 with the Astros.  I think it was 8 home runs in 12 games.
 
2013-10-05 03:34:54 PM

dave2198: FriarReb98: So realistically, the Babe's came in fewer games over fewer postseasons.  Personally, I argue that the Babe's accomplishments will always have more meaning than modern players on several levels, from the environment of the game, to general health and physique of players, to travel, to surrounding players, to the fact that he did it first.  Yes, Beltran's ridiculous in the post-season, but its far easier for him to be than it ever was for the Babe.

Babe faced much easier opponents. Easier pitching. Out-of-shape fielders. No minorities. No advanced scouting of hitters. Less information for pitchers about the hitters they faced. Less-refined off-speed pitches.

The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Beltran isn't playing against boys.


Bullshiat. The talent pool was slightly deeper in the beginning of Ruth's career because there was literally no other outlet for a gifted athlete to make a living being an athlete that wasn't restricted by size and weight.
 
2013-10-05 04:54:41 PM

UNC_Samurai: The top 20% of Negro League players would have easily made Major League rosters.  Look at what happened to the quality of play in football in the 60s when the AFL bled off a portion of the NFL's talent pool.


Ruth is
Ruth is an interesting case.If integration got rid of the bottom 15% of Major League Talent, we'd expect about 5% fewer home runs.If Ruth had been a batter his whole career, he'd more than make up for those, so if we're going to look at hypothetical totals in one direction for the sake of fairness, we might as well take everything into account.
 
2013-10-05 05:13:24 PM

MFAWG: Bullshiat. The talent pool was slightly deeper in the beginning of Ruth's career because there was literally no other outlet for a gifted athlete to make a living being an athlete that wasn't restricted by size and weight.


You're way off.

When Ruth started, the population of the United States was ~90M, and ~15% of that wasn't allowed to play because of the color barrier.  Baseball was an Americans-only game that faced no competition from the Caribbean, South America, Japan, Korea, etc.

The population of the baseball-playing world today is 600M+.  There are 7+ men lined up for every 1 Ruth had to compete with.  That more than makes up for the few people who could play baseball (i.e., not offensive linemen) at a professional level but choose another sport.

Steamingpile: And quit bringing up integration, its insulting to both sides since it acts like every player in the negro leagues would dominate and white players would suddenly suck. I don't think many stats drastically change as evidenced by how little stats changed, sure you had a few great players but most were spot fillers.

No one claimed your ridiculous strawman that "every player in the negro leagues would dominate and white players would suddenly suck ".  But when integration happened, the best players in the Negro Leagues (Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Campanella, Newcombe, Irvin, Doby, Minoso, and a 41-year-old Satchel Paige) immediately were among the best players in MLB.  Average players that moved over looked average.  Etc.

If this had happened earlier and assuming equal ability, about 1/7th of the worst players in MLB would be replaced by superior players.  Ruth faced ~28 pitchers each year almost exclusively (7 other teams, 4 man rotations, little relief work).  You don't think replacing the 25th, 26th, 27th, and 28th guys with MLB-average talent would have impacted him?
 
2013-10-05 05:16:07 PM
Babe Ruth only had to play against white folks. It all evens out, Fark your asterisks.
 
2013-10-05 05:18:03 PM
www.netbrawl.com

Babe Ruth was nothing more than a fat old man, with little-girl legs. And here's something I just found out recently. He wasn't really a sultan.
 
2013-10-05 06:20:47 PM

dave2198: The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.


Say that to Ty Cobb's face and he'd beat you to a pulp.

Ty Cobb on Babe Ruth: He could run okay for a fat man.
 
2013-10-05 07:24:54 PM

red5ish: dave2198: The Babe was The Babe because he had no real competition. A man among boys.

Say that to Ty Cobb's face and he'd beat you to a pulp.

Ty Cobb on Babe Ruth: He could run okay for a fat man.


Well...he'll beat you up for calling him attractive and successful.

/dude he beat up was a crippled veteran, too
//his grandson said he was a really nice guy while his father (Cobb's son) was as much of a dickbag as Ty was as a player - methinks in his old age Cobb realized his kid grew up to be a bitter asshole just like his old man
 
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