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(NYPost)   Remember kids, the police are under no obligation to protect you in the event that you are a victim of a crime in progress   (nypost.com) divider line 192
    More: Followup, West Side Highway, 125th Street, Alexian Lien, N.Y.P.D.  
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11043 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Oct 2013 at 8:23 PM (27 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-10-04 05:30:57 PM
More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.
 
2013-10-04 05:32:57 PM
Good for the hummer driver. The whole family would have died in a hail of gunfire if NYPD was involved
 
2013-10-04 06:11:40 PM

zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.


A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.
 
2013-10-04 07:09:34 PM
 
2013-10-04 07:15:46 PM
Now it's clear why NY won't be charging those involved. Some are on the Liberal NY payroll.
 
2013-10-04 07:21:51 PM
TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.
Yes we can truly take the word of someone who believes guns are evil in all situations.

All this proved is you need more than a NY 7rnd magazine.
 
2013-10-04 07:43:53 PM

OnlyM3: TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse. Yes we can truly take the word of someone who believes guns are evil in all situations.

All this proved is you need more than a NY 7rnd magazine.


That's true. More guns is always the answer
 
2013-10-04 07:50:36 PM

OnlyM3: TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse. Yes we can truly take the word of someone who believes guns are evil in all situations.

All this proved is you need more than a NY 7rnd magazine.


I don't believe they're evil in all situations.  I have no problem with people owning a reasonable number of reasonable guns that are regulated/registered in a reasonable way in their own homes, and transporting them safely (unloaded and locked away) to and from legitimate firearm activities such as hunting or target shooting.

I don't support concealed or open carry at all, and I fully believe that civilians carrying guns around is going to end badly far more often than it ends well, but I'm not a gun-grabber, I think we just need to bring some sanity to our gun laws.  This guy might well be alive today because of NYC's gun laws - the bikers only beat him up instead of shooting him.

As to the police officer who failed to intervene, I can understand not wanting to break cover if he'd been under for a while, but the safety of innocent people should really come first before any investigation.  This is a good opportunity for the people of NYC to lobby their police department to make it official policy that any officer witnessing a crime, undercover or not, is responsible for taking whatever measures necessary to ensure the safety of any innocent civilians involved.
 
2013-10-04 08:00:37 PM
That goes double when they're stealing your money.
 
2013-10-04 08:24:47 PM

TuteTibiImperes: The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him


Never dealt with any bullies in real life, I take it?
 
2013-10-04 08:26:59 PM

Man On Pink Corner: TuteTibiImperes: The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him

Never dealt with any bullies in real life, I take it?


It's not like the movies. They don't fly 25 feet back after being struck by a handgun round.
 
2013-10-04 08:27:46 PM
I suppose that nobody noted the "undercover" in the headline, and possibly considered that what he was investigating might not be worth blowing his cover?
 
2013-10-04 08:28:09 PM

zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.


More and more, avocados become overripe immediately before you're ready to eat them.

And since overripe avocados just get thrown in the trash that is yet another reason to buy a Mercedes.

/makes just as much sense as the nonsense you just spouted
 
2013-10-04 08:28:09 PM

TuteTibiImperes: zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.


I agree with your first sentence.  If he'd legally had a gun with him, then the bikers could have just as easily had guns with them.  So he pulls a gun and either waves it around or actually shoots someone, then the bikers have an excuse to shoot the hell out of the SUV.

Not a good situation.
 
2013-10-04 08:28:24 PM

TuteTibiImperes: This guy might well be alive today because of NYC's gun laws


He could just as easily be dead because of NYC's gun laws.
 
2013-10-04 08:30:08 PM

TuteTibiImperes: As to the police officer who failed to intervene, I can understand not wanting to break cover if he'd been under for a while, but the safety of innocent people should really come first before any investigation. This is a good opportunity for the people of NYC to lobby their police department to make it official policy that any officer witnessing a crime, undercover or not, is responsible for taking whatever measures necessary to ensure the safety of any innocent civilians involved.


As a New Yorker, I disagree, at least for undercover cops.  Generally cops aren't going to be going undercover unless it's something serious and long-term.  Risking the operation for a particular crime in progress runs the risk of blowing hundreds or thousands of man-hours, contacts, and quite possibly the opportunity to prevent serious crimes from taking place.  It very well could save one life now and risk many lives in the future.
 
2013-10-04 08:30:12 PM

TuteTibiImperes: zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.


Or as Homer Simpson would put it, "The lesson is: never try."
 
2013-10-04 08:32:14 PM

fusillade762: Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

THANKS AGAIN, SCOTUS!


That's fine, the constitution does not cover everything. Still, common sense should dictate that if taxpayers are forced to pay the expense of a service they should damn well be able to have the service rendered in time of need. Something is very wrong here.
 
2013-10-04 08:35:45 PM
28, 35, 39...

I thought these were supposed to be dumb kids. I think I might have to join the "wish more got run over" crowd.
 
2013-10-04 08:35:51 PM
Um, duh?

I'm always amazed when somebody believes otherwise.
 
2013-10-04 08:37:18 PM

LoneWolf343: I suppose that nobody noted the "undercover" in the headline, and possibly considered that what he was investigating might not be worth blowing his cover?


It mentions that in the article but this has become a gun wank thread so whatever.
 
2013-10-04 08:38:29 PM
"He was attempting to diffuse the situation," lawyer Gloria Allred said.

No, she didn't say that. What lawyer Gloria said was that he was attempting to defuse the situation.
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/defuse.html
 
2013-10-04 08:38:29 PM

KrispyKritter: fusillade762: Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

THANKS AGAIN, SCOTUS!

That's fine, the constitution does not cover everything. Still, common sense should dictate that if taxpayers are forced to pay the expense of a service they should damn well be able to have the service rendered in time of need. Something is very wrong here.


There's always officer discretion.  If a cop doesn't have the right to pick and choose which crimes to make arrests for, then any crime they miss becomes a lawsuit for negligence or some other reason.

It's purely a self-defense thing.  When you're obligated to enforce all the laws, you can't miss a single one.  Without the obligation, you can focus on more important things.
 
2013-10-04 08:39:08 PM

Fart_Machine: LoneWolf343: I suppose that nobody noted the "undercover" in the headline, and possibly considered that what he was investigating might not be worth blowing his cover?

It mentions that in the article but this has become a gun wank thread so whatever.


Oh, and this part: An off-duty, undercover NYPD cop was among the pack

Not only was he undercover, he wasn't even working that day.

Not that that excuses him from reporting, but yeah, this is a cop-hate thread, so whatever.
 
2013-10-04 08:39:59 PM
Right now Dick Wolf crying that he could've got at least three episodes out of this.

/not including L&O: SVU or CI
 
2013-10-04 08:40:20 PM
Does anybody even say "New York's Finest" in a non - ironic way anymore?
 
2013-10-04 08:40:20 PM
The cop was undercover. What's he supposed to do; screw up a 2 or 3 year deal; just to get his ass beat by 40 bikies?
 
2013-10-04 08:40:40 PM

KrispyKritter: fusillade762: Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

THANKS AGAIN, SCOTUS!

That's fine, the constitution does not cover everything. Still, common sense should dictate that if taxpayers are forced to pay the expense of a service they should damn well be able to have the service rendered in time of need. Something is very wrong here.


Exactly.  Bad things can be constitutional, and good ideas may not be constitutional or constitutionally-required.  Amazing how many don't get that.  Kind of like people who think natural = good all the time.
 
2013-10-04 08:41:11 PM

pudding7: TuteTibiImperes: zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.

I agree with your first sentence.  If he'd legally had a gun with him, then the bikers could have just as easily had guns with them.  So he pulls a gun and either waves it around or actually shoots someone, then the bikers have an excuse to shoot the hell out of the SUV.

Not a good situation.



He could have yelled -"guys stop beating the man".
 
2013-10-04 08:45:05 PM

TuteTibiImperes: OnlyM3: TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse. Yes we can truly take the word of someone who believes guns are evil in all situations.

All this proved is you need more than a NY 7rnd magazine.

I don't believe they're evil in all situations.  I have no problem with people owning a reasonable number of reasonable guns that are regulated/registered in a reasonable way in their own homes, and transporting them safely (unloaded and locked away) to and from legitimate firearm activities such as hunting or target shooting.

I don't support concealed or open carry at all, and I fully believe that civilians carrying guns around is going to end badly far more often than it ends well, but I'm not a gun-grabber, I think we just need to bring some sanity to our gun laws.  This guy might well be alive today because of NYC's gun laws - the bikers only beat him up instead of shooting him.

As to the police officer who failed to intervene, I can understand not wanting to break cover if he'd been under for a while, but the safety of innocent people should really come first before any investigation.  This is a good opportunity for the people of NYC to lobby their police department to make it official policy that any officer witnessing a crime, undercover or not, is responsible for taking whatever measures necessary to ensure the safety of any innocent civilians involved.


Believe? Think? Might? Amazing argument you've laid out there. Do you have any actual information to share to back up your pure speculation?
 
2013-10-04 08:46:22 PM

TuteTibiImperes: zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.


Ah no, you break in my window and you get a .38 hello.
 
2013-10-04 08:47:11 PM

OnlyM3: Now it's clear why NY won't be charging those involved. Some are on the Liberal NY payroll.


Yea, i pretty much assumed part of the reason the NYPD was reluctant to charge the SUV driver (and were so voiciferous about the fault of the MC riders) had to do with their potential liability - from their not taking action when they turned them away from times Square and now this...they are in complete cover their ass mode...fortunately the bikers involved were equally dubious and of varying degrees of criminality, so they make good scapegoats.

But the NYPD is gonna be sued in this case, and probably lose.  they shoulda acted when they arrived at times square (surprise lockdown! everyone produce insurance and licenses or you are impounded!) and now with this they were on the scene and didn't act?  Cha ching...MR SuV gonna make a nice dime off this one.
 
2013-10-04 08:48:00 PM
Why would you expect a cop to help you? Did the suv driver have a dog that needed to be shot?
 
2013-10-04 08:49:08 PM
RodneyToady:

.  Generally cops aren't going to be going undercover unless it's something serious and long-term.  Risking the operation for a particular crime in progress runs the risk of blowing hundreds or thousands of man-hours, contacts, and quite possibly the opportunity to prevent serious crimes from taking place.  It very well could save one life now and risk many lives in the future.

This is nothing but the argument from the greater good,  which is nothing more than the ends justify the means. I'm skeptical of such claims to begin with and I'm even more skeptical when as a member of the public I'm but into a "trust the police" mode because I have no independent means to evaluate the trade-offs.

There is an irony here: he failed to intervene because he didn't want to blow his cover but the only way for a neutral party to evaluate whether his decision was correct requires blowing his cover.
 
2013-10-04 08:50:55 PM

LoneWolf343: I suppose that nobody noted the "undercover" in the headline, and possibly considered that what he was investigating might not be worth blowing his cover?


if this were the case i doubt he would be lawyering up to protect himself.
 
2013-10-04 08:54:21 PM

iheartscotch: The cop was undercover. What's he supposed to do; screw up a 2 or 3 year deal; just to get his ass beat by 40 bikies?


Nope, he is lawyering up to defend himself.  He was off duty.  Stop watching the wire. He was more likely an undercover buy and bust traffic cop, not Serpico.
 
2013-10-04 08:54:28 PM
TuteTibiImperes:
A gun in that situation could have made things much worse...

Don't carry one, then. No one is questioning your right to submit to a beating.
 
2013-10-04 08:57:03 PM
I'm sure the right thing will be done once the police union gets involved -- police unions stand up for the safety of the citizens paying their salaries.
 
2013-10-04 08:57:33 PM
FTA:  "Meanwhile, the only biker injured during the rampage threatened through his lawyer that he may sue the Lien for running him over with their Range Rover when he hit the gas as his SUV was first surrounded. "He was attempting to diffuse the situation," lawyer Gloria Allred said of Edwin Mieses, 32, who she said may be paralyzed from the waist down "for the rest of his life."

I've heard of Liens causing damage to one's reputation, but paralysis?  Dayum.
 
2013-10-04 08:58:24 PM

asmodeus224: LoneWolf343: I suppose that nobody noted the "undercover" in the headline, and possibly considered that what he was investigating might not be worth blowing his cover?

if this were the case i doubt he would be lawyering up to protect himself.


Nor would the police internal affairs unit be investigating if other cops were riding with the biker gang.

"He rides with the New Rochelle-based Front Line Soldiers, a club that also counts several other cops among its members, a source said.

Internal Affairs is investigating whether those cops, too, were among the bikers - and whether they also witnessed the assault that left Internet exec Alexian Lien bleeding on the pavement as his wife and toddler cowered in their black Range Rover."
 
2013-10-04 09:00:30 PM
Remember NYPD, the people of New York are under no obligation to provide a pension.
 
2013-10-04 09:01:20 PM

TuteTibiImperes:
I don't support concealed or open carry at all, and I fully believe that civilians carrying guns around is going to end badly far more often than it ends well


Your position may seem more rational were you to support it with actual data, rather than merely assert that all "shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit systems need be repealed and all permits revoked without presenting any data showing an increase in rates of crime following establishment of such permit systems.


but I'm not a gun-grabber

Are you saying, then, that you do not support any new legislation that would require any current legal owner of any model of firearm to surrender their firearm, regardless of that model, even if the firearm is an "assault weapon"?
 
2013-10-04 09:01:37 PM
Cops are earners.
 
2013-10-04 09:02:53 PM

pudding7: TuteTibiImperes: zepher: More and more, cops are nothing more than legal gangs.

And since a cop will never come to your aid even when he's a witness that is yet another reason for concealed carry.

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse.  The guy was being assaulted and surrounded by a horde of angry bikers.  The best case scenario would have been his pulls the gun and scares them off, but it's just as likely that they see it swarm on him, and either take it away to use on him or beat him up worse for threatening them, or he shoots one before the rest of them fall on top of him and beat him worse for shooting one of their own.

I agree with your first sentence.  If he'd legally had a gun with him, then the bikers could have just as easily had guns with them.  So he pulls a gun and either waves it around or actually shoots someone, then the bikers have an excuse to shoot the hell out of the SUV.

Not a good situation.


You are correct; the presence of a legally carried firearm on a person creates a probability of illegally carried firearms spontaneously appearing on the persons of individuals around them, in defiance of all known properties of physics.
 
2013-10-04 09:03:06 PM
"He didn't want to blow his cover,"

Hero!
 
2013-10-04 09:05:07 PM

Oblio13: TuteTibiImperes:
A gun in that situation could have made things much worse...

Don't carry one, then. No one is questioning your right to submit to a beating.


The only firearm that would have made a difference in this situation would have been a hard-mounted, belt-fed dishka. Eyewitness accounts differ, but there were anywhere from 200-300 riders in this group, and at least a couple dozen in the immediate vicinity of Lien's vehicle.

Even if he had a firearm, he had to weigh the possibility that one of the riders in that couple dozen would have been armed as well. How long do you think his family would have survived if he had pulled a weapon?

But I'm sure you would have been able to take out the entire group with one mag from a pistol.
 
2013-10-04 09:05:43 PM
All of you saying that he shouldn't have done anything to protect his cover:  Guess what? His cover if good and blown now. Sure, they didn't mention his name or show a picture of him, but bikers - even really stupid ones can read the news. They now know there is an undercover cop in their group. It won't take them long to figure out who it is.
 
2013-10-04 09:07:25 PM

suzy_qu3: TuteTibiImperes: OnlyM3: TuteTibiImperes [TotalFark]

A gun in that situation could have made things much worse. Yes we can truly take the word of someone who believes guns are evil in all situations.

All this proved is you need more than a NY 7rnd magazine.

I don't believe they're evil in all situations.  I have no problem with people owning a reasonable number of reasonable guns that are regulated/registered in a reasonable way in their own homes, and transporting them safely (unloaded and locked away) to and from legitimate firearm activities such as hunting or target shooting.

I don't support concealed or open carry at all, and I fully believe that civilians carrying guns around is going to end badly far more often than it ends well, but I'm not a gun-grabber, I think we just need to bring some sanity to our gun laws.  This guy might well be alive today because of NYC's gun laws - the bikers only beat him up instead of shooting him.

As to the police officer who failed to intervene, I can understand not wanting to break cover if he'd been under for a while, but the safety of innocent people should really come first before any investigation.  This is a good opportunity for the people of NYC to lobby their police department to make it official policy that any officer witnessing a crime, undercover or not, is responsible for taking whatever measures necessary to ensure the safety of any innocent civilians involved.

Believe? Think? Might? Amazing argument you've laid out there. Do you have any actual information to share to back up your pure speculation?


"Shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit systems have existed in various locales in the United States of America for more than twenty-five years, and have been enacted in more than half of the states in the nation for at least fifteen years. I am certain that TuteTibiImperes must be able to reference data showing that such permit systems increase rates of violent crime, as such data must necessarily exist by now if his position is not entirely intellectually dishonest.
 
2013-10-04 09:07:34 PM
Surprised this hasn't turned into a well deserved Gloria Allred hate thread.
 
2013-10-04 09:09:29 PM

Dimensio: TuteTibiImperes:
I don't support concealed or open carry at all, and I fully believe that civilians carrying guns around is going to end badly far more often than it ends well

Your position may seem more rational were you to support it with actual data, rather than merely assert that all "shall-issue" based concealed weapons permit systems need be repealed and all permits revoked without presenting any data showing an increase in rates of crime following establishment of such permit systems.


I'm not aware of any studies on that topic in particular.  The only ones I've found show the increase in overall gun violence with an increase in the number and availability of firearms, but they don't specifically address the issue of concealed or open carry.  The anecdotal evidence suggests that countries which severely limit civilian carry permits have lower rates of gun violence.  


but I'm not a gun-grabber

Are you saying, then, that you do not support any new legislation that would require any current legal owner of any model of firearm to surrender their firearm, regardless of that model, even if the firearm is an "assault weapon"?


I think assault weapons are ridiculous, but I've been doing some reading regarding them and I suppose they aren't particularly any more dangerous than any other rifle with a similar caliber and capacity.

I can see the arguments for magazine/clip limits, and would fully enforce bans on certain modifications, such as the stocks that allow for what is essentially full-auto fire, but assault weapons themselves I suppose are OK as long as they don't violate any of the other firearm regulations  I still always get the impression that those who feel the need to own and carry them around are just doing it for the image though.
 
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